Next you'll be telling me there are people here who like Lord of the Rings!
Moar sensitive! Be so!
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The idea that the real problem is people complaining about prejudice and discrimination, not the prejudice and discrimination themselves would be funny, if it wasn't part of a backlash trying to preserve that very prejudice and discrimination.
Are you saying our opinions are part of a backlash to preserve prejudice and discrimination? Funny, I never noticed how utterly racist I was...until now.
The real problem is a mix, not solely one or the other. My belief is that bigotry is not going to truly go away until we do away with the double standards and make fun of everybody equally, South Park style. And since almost all racist/heterosexist/sexist/whateverist jokes are now being told by people wishing to mock those old-fashioned views (speaking as someone surrounded by people who make just those sorts of jokes), the questions become, "When is it appropriate to tell these jokes?" and "Is this person trying to hurt feelings, or is he just having fun?"
It's kinda like "too soon" jokes: You find the right audience, they're fine, but telling a 9-11 joke to a survivor is the mark of either an idiot or an a-hole. Or both. You need to keep offensive jokes to corners where everyone knows you don't actually think those views are okay.
But I still ain't gonna say "differently abled". That's just silly.
EDIT: To clarify my "joke" point, pretty much all jokes are either at someone's expense or puns. And puns are at the expense of the listener. Slapstick isn't very funny if it's happening to someone who can't feel pain, for instance. What matters is that the meanness is self-contained. If it spills out of the joke into sincere bigotry or sadism (making dead baby jokes around someone who just had a miscarriage, for instance), you have a problem.
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The idea that the real problem is people complaining about prejudice and discrimination, not the prejudice and discrimination themselves would be funny, if it wasn't part of a backlash trying to preserve that very prejudice and discrimination.Are you saying our opinions are part of a backlash to preserve prejudice and discrimination? Funny, I never noticed how utterly racist I was...until now.
The real problem is a mix, not solely one or the other. My belief is that bigotry is not going to truly go away until we do away with the double standards and make fun of everybody equally, South Park style. And since almost all racist/heterosexist/sexist/whateverist jokes are now being told by people wishing to mock those old-fashioned views (speaking as someone surrounded by people who make just those sorts of jokes), the questions become, "When is it appropriate to tell these jokes?" and "Is this person trying to hurt feelings, or is he just having fun?"
It's kinda like "too soon" jokes: You find the right audience, they're fine, but telling a 9-11 joke to a survivor is the mark of either an idiot or an a-hole. Or both. You need to keep offensive jokes to corners where everyone knows you don't actually think those views are okay.
But I still ain't gonna say "differently abled". That's just silly.
EDIT: To clarify my "joke" point, pretty much all jokes are either at someone's expense or puns. And puns are at the expense of the listener. Slapstick isn't very funny if it's happening to someone who can't feel pain, for instance. What matters is that the meanness is self-contained. If it spills out of the joke into sincere bigotry or sadism (making dead baby jokes around someone who just had a miscarriage, for instance), you have a problem.
Wanting to get rid of double standards is considered racist by many....and not just about jokes.
Personally comedy is supposed to be offensive, it is supposed to push the lines with an uncomfortable bit of truth mixed into the funny.
Wanting to get rid of double standards is considered racist by many....and not just about jokes.
Which is funny, because it's just another form of racism. I can do my terrible Russian accent, but my terrible Chinese accent? Unacceptable!
Also, totally not serious here, but technically...true bigots are an oppressed minority. They are outnumbered, generally disliked and shunned, and often hold their opinions as the consequence of a deeply-held spiritual belief system.
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Awesome. I accept your apology. As much as I disagree with your position, I have no beef with you as long as you can keep this discussion non-personal. Like I said, my own brother's big on the Tumblr social justice movement, so I can't exactly just condemn everyone in it as jackasses.
EDIT: Though I don't really give a crap about you "misrepresenting my struggles". It's the "implying I'm okay with mocking people who've been beaten for being gay" that I have trouble with. Feel free to make as many Ass Burger jokes as you like, I don't mind.
Yeah, that was on me. It's always good to keep things at a distance so it doesn't get personal. And I wasn't saying that you'd mock someone like that, I'm saying you could have a friend who was gay who went through that and you might not know about it for whatever reason. So when you crack a gay joke, it might be opening old wounds, make them feel less safe around you, or things like that.
No one knows everyone else's struggles, and just like I was wrong about yours, it's easy to assume. So generally I do try to assume that certain topics are better to stay away from with certain people, as I do know people who have been beaten for things they couldn't change (myself included, as a Hispanic), and I know that's not uncommon for others.
I'm espousing a general empathy for those that you don't know their circumstances, although I've always believed it's up to a given group to decide what is offensive to them.
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Wanting to get rid of double standards is considered racist by many....and not just about jokes.Which is funny, because it's just another form of racism. I can do my terrible Russian accent, but my terrible Chinese accent? Unacceptable!
Also, totally not serious here, but technically...true bigots are an oppressed minority. They are outnumbered, generally disliked and shunned, and often hold their opinions as the consequence of a deeply-held spiritual belief system.
To a degree i see what you mean but if you are shunned for doing something universally seen as bad you do not really need or deserve protection. same for pedos and the like. weither religious belief or "born that way" some things cross lines too far.
EDIT
Wow rare to see someone else with Aspergers syndrome, Hi there.I, too, have Aspergers...for the record. :)
Kinda half-add me to that too; I have ADD, and the psychiatrist who evaluated me and gave mem that diagnosis said that I also had some form of ASD, not unlikely aspergers, but that she would need to make another evaluation specifically for that. And I didn't bother.
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EDIT
Wow rare to see someone else with Aspergers syndrome, Hi there.I, too, have Aspergers...for the record. :)Kinda half-add me to that too; I have ADD, and the psychiatrist who evaluated me and gave mem that diagnosis said that I also had some form of ASD, not unlikely aspergers, but that she would need to make another evaluation specifically for that. And I didn't bother.
i too have Aspergers Syndrome, i'm also Paranoid Schizophrenic and Bipolar as well. i take medications for all 3.
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The idea that the real problem is people complaining about prejudice and discrimination, not the prejudice and discrimination themselves would be funny, if it wasn't part of a backlash trying to preserve that very prejudice and discrimination.Are you saying our opinions are part of a backlash to preserve prejudice and discrimination? Funny, I never noticed how utterly racist I was...until now.
The real problem is a mix, not solely one or the other. My belief is that bigotry is not going to truly go away until we do away with the double standards and make fun of everybody equally, South Park style. And since almost all racist/heterosexist/sexist/whateverist jokes are now being told by people wishing to mock those old-fashioned views (speaking as someone surrounded by people who make just those sorts of jokes), the questions become, "When is it appropriate to tell these jokes?" and "Is this person trying to hurt feelings, or is he just having fun?"
It's kinda like "too soon" jokes: You find the right audience, they're fine, but telling a 9-11 joke to a survivor is the mark of either an idiot or an a-hole. Or both. You need to keep offensive jokes to corners where everyone knows you don't actually think those views are okay.
I don't think you're racist, at least not more than the vast majority of us, myself included. Assuming you live in the US, you do live in a society with an awful lot of racism still in it. It's hard to avoid absorbing some of it.
Mostly, I'd say jokes aren't a big deal. OTOH, they often reinforce stereotypes which can feed into racism. And can hurt people, even if they try not to show it.
There is of course a difference between being an ideologically explicit racist, and "just" acting in a way that keeps the racist structures in place. But people who continuously do racist stuff will always claim it's not racist because they're not ideologically racist.
And the whole thing with "you can joke about anything" is really easy to say when you're part of the group that defines what "anything" includes and what constitutes a joke. They are generally people with a large safe zone who are rarely targeted because of their identity, and whos identities are generally in a privileged position.
But if I take the right to make jokes that make those people uncomfortable - they claim "that's no joke, that's serious business".
(TW: RAPE AND VIOLENCE)
When some dude makes rape victims the butt of a rape joke they say "hey that's funny, you should laugh, not be offended" - since they think it's funny, since as long as they can stay out of prison they're not the ones getting raped.
But if I would go home to their grandfather who's in a wheelchair or their 6-year old kid and say "you know what would be funny? If I killed you right now" - then the same people would say "hey that's horrible! you can't say stuff like that! that's no joke!" - but maybe I found it very humorous.
Granted I wouldn't do such a thing but it shows so clearly how these things go. These people have no issues with making people feel afraid or uncomfortable as long as it's not someone close to them or themselves, and they take the right to define what constitutes a joke and not to keep that.
And then they complain about double standards.
To a degree i see what you mean but if you are shunned for doing something universally seen as bad you do not really need or deserve protection. same for pedos and the like. weither religious belief or "born that way" some things cross lines too far.Wanting to get rid of double standards is considered racist by many....and not just about jokes.Which is funny, because it's just another form of racism. I can do my terrible Russian accent, but my terrible Chinese accent? Unacceptable!
Also, totally not serious here, but technically...true bigots are an oppressed minority. They are outnumbered, generally disliked and shunned, and often hold their opinions as the consequence of a deeply-held spiritual belief system.
Like I said, I was just having some fun. It's evidence of how double standards can become twisted if allowed to, though. I mean, as moral as we see ourselves (and damn straight!), they see themselves as being in the right, as well. Areas like that are why the concept of ethics was formed--a neutral judge. That's why I'm always wary of making exceptions. Equality all around, amirite?
And of course, everyone acts racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic etc now and then. A very central part is what you do when confronted with it; if you stop doing it or get all defensive and "that was just a joke!!!"
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Personally, I favor the middle ground of, "Sorry, I won't make that joke around you if it makes you uncomfortable."
Passive aggressive, yeah. I generally leave off the latter half if I think they're genuinely hurt and not just trying to pick a fight, though.
I am not even sure TG people should be the offended ones. Women out there, how does it feel to know that I would consider it to be a curse to suddenly be changed into one of you? For what it is worth, I understand if you think being a man would suck, and I'm cool with that.I think that being 'not you', for your external body not to match your internal self-identity or brain wiring, is not much fun. It doesn't actually matter what the mismatch is, only that it is a mismatch.
Would you be weirded out if you were polymorphed into another person who wasn't you? Even if nothing else was changed - let's say your race and gender even stayed the same - it would probably be pretty upsetting to most people for their outside not to match their internal knowledge of who they are inside.
Granted, most powergamers would just cheer as long as something about their stats got improved. I don't think that is a great representation of how a real person would react if their actual self-identity were shaken to the core and their body drastically altered to be someone or something that was not them.
I'm sure misogyny or misandry would complicate the situation, but it isn't actually a prerequisite for a nonconsensual body transformation to be upsetting.
Hmm, my internal wiring not matching my external body. This is everyone over 30 that I know.
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I was wondering if the Girdle of Opposite Gender was offensive to transgender players, as it is officially listed as a "cursed" item. Think about the implications. Couldn't Paizo be considered to be insensitive to the TG community in its official consideration of this item as "cursed"?
Don't feed the trolls, guys.
Said the guy helping to necromance the thread.
Said the guy also helping to necromance the thread.