I was wondering if the Girdle of Opposite Gender was offensive to transgender players, as it is officially listed as a "cursed" item. Think about the implications. Couldn't Paizo be considered to be insensitive to the TG community in its official consideration of this item as "cursed"?
It's offensive to me and I'm not TG. Or maybe it's just that phenomenally stupid.
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I'm not a TG player, (nor do I play one on TV) but this seems like a stretch.
"Cursed" in this context is a mechanical term, not a pejorative term or an ethical judgement.
It's cursed because you can't take it off without successfully casting remove curse (or a spell with a similar effect), not because it fiddles with your biology.
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Additionally, the curse refers to the fact that the effect is unknown until after its activated and thus is not the characters choice. TG people chose to be TG, thus it is very different.
Besides, many great stories include undesired gender changes ( Misfile, Ranma 1/2, etc), thus showing it has ample great roleplaying possibilties.
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I'm not trans*...but I've read several threads where our trans* board members expressed their opinions on this item, and while these varied, since, y'know, trans* people aren't a hive mind, and many wished they had one, the consensus was that being a cursed item made sense, since anyone not trans (which is the majority of people) who put on the belt would in fact now suffer a similar "I'm in the wrong body." problem to that which trans* people face in real life...which is apparently quite unpleasant.
I was wondering if the Girdle of Opposite Gender was offensive to transgender players, as it is officially listed as a "cursed" item. Think about the implications. Couldn't Paizo be considered to be insensitive to the TG community in its official consideration of this item as "cursed"?
Considering this cursed item has been around RPGs for a very long time (At least since 2E AD&D, probably even before then) I wouldn't lay the blame on Paizo first of all.
Secondly, I think considering it to be offensive is a little excessive... I'm not LBGT, and have nothing but respect for the LBGT Community, but insensitive? I fail to see how, but that's just my personal opinion on the matter...
Its cursed because it changes you against your will...but no need to digress.
I shall emphatically disagree with you without feeling the need to go on at length in a misguided effort to prove to all and sundry that I'm correcter-than-thou, in that case.
If only all disagreements could be settled so amicably. ;)
Part of it, for me, at least, is that I don't think of 'cursed' items as 'I tried to make this and I messed up'.
Cursed items are weapons, crafted intentionally. You find a way to plant them on someone else, or make it a gift, and they screw that person over. Replace the enemy general's shield with a Shield of Arrow Attraction, and watch the results.
I can't think of any way to weaponize this thing outside of some setting where, say, the second son of a noble wants to hose Son #1 out of his inheritance because only the men can inherit property/titles, and my games are not so ... patriarchal.
TG people chose to be TG
They did?
TG people chose to be TGThey did?
I'm hoping he means 'chose to undergo gender reassignment surgery'.
TG people chose to be TGThey did?
No. But let's not get into those weeds here. This is a very common misunderstanding in regard to terminology. It's possible to undergo gender-reassignment without being physiologically or biochemically transgender, and vice-versa.
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TG people chose to be TGThey did?
I'm guessing DarkLight meant, "TG people who have gender surgery choose to do so." As opposed to the girdle, which is "you're changing gender whether or not you want to."
Anyway, here is my old post in an old thread about this item.
Considering this cursed item has been around RPGs for a very long time (At least since 2E AD&D, probably even before then) I wouldn't lay the blame on Paizo first of all.
It was still their choice to include it in the game, when they upgraded from 3.5. Personally, I think that should have been the option to choose. It's not an item that comes up often, and if people want to use it, then they can find it from 3.5.
As for whether it's offensive? Kind of. Sure there are worse things out there than a GoOG, but I think it somewhat trivializes transgender issues. Even if your group has some basic level of maturity, and doesn't treat it with the middle-school level of stupidity, it still takes what can be a delicate issue for some people and turns it into a class of item that traditionally has been treated like: "Ha ha, fooled you; your character's now a woman/man."
Though, it's not a huge deal; my way of doing it is treating it like it doesn't exist (along with the other cursed items, since beyond whether they're offensive or not, they're just not all that fun).
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It was still their choice to include it in the game, when they upgraded from 3.5. Personally, I think that should have been the option to choose. It's not an item that comes up often, and if people want to use it, then they can find it from 3.5.
To be fair, its presence in PF in no way obligates us to put it in our games.
It was still their choice to include it in the game, when they upgraded from 3.5. Personally, I think that should have been the option to choose. It's not an item that comes up often, and if people want to use it, then they can find it from 3.5.To be fair, its presence in PF in no way obligates us to put it in our games.
I don't include it. My point was more that these types of arguments and issues wouldn't come up if they had just left it out. Anyone who wants to use it could just adjudicate it without officially having it in the book. Or if they really feel the need, they could find it in a 3.5 book.
Offense isn't based on who says/prints something, it's based on who hears/reads it. Like Maezer says above, EVERYthing offends somebody. I've met people who were offended that Drow were black. Some people are offended by the presence of magic, demons, devils and gods in the game ... you know, the OMG D&D iz the DEVUL crowd.
If something in the book or game offends thee, don't use it.
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I can see the concept of there even being an "opposite" gender for every person offending people. However, the line about how "The character's abilities, mind, and spirit remain unaffected; only the character's sex changes" is actually refreshingly progressive. ^__^
At any rate, the description for cursed items specifically says:
"Cursed items are any magic items with some sort of potentially negative impact on the user. Occasionally they mix bad with good, forcing characters to make difficult choices. Cursed items are almost never made intentionally."
That's a pretty fair, and non-judgmental description of the effect, I think.
What happens if you slap a GoOG on a Warforged?
(I'm sure the answer is 'nothing', but it's a fun visual somehow.)
Oh, old memory alert. Back in 1e, females had lower stat maxima than males ... so if you had really good stats, you could be significantly impacted by the girdle mechanically.
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It's funny, because I also find it offensive, but for close-minded old fashioned reasons. So, there's something for everybody here.
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Please tell me how you can do anything and have it not be offensive to someone.
/thread
Some people will see offense in everything, if only to give them something to direct their hate onto.
Please tell me how you can do anything and have it not be offensive to someone./thread
Some people will see offense in everything, if only to give them something to direct their hate onto.
I find that thought offensive. I'm going to go ahead and hate it now.
I hope you're happy.
Please tell me how you can do anything and have it not be offensive to someone./thread
Some people will see offense in everything, if only to give them something to direct their hate onto.
I find that thought offensive. I'm going to go ahead and hate it now.
I hope you're happy.
<3
Anyway, the Girdle of Opposite... Whatever the hell you want to call it... is only as offensive as you let it be. Don't want it in your game? Don't have it. Don't jump down Paizo's throat for it because "muh gender inequality".
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The way I see it (as someone with a transgendered parent) is that the "cursed" aspect comes in two places. (1) The item is deceptive. Ie. It fools standard spell craft checks as to its effect. (2) Once you put it on you cannot take it off easily.
Additionally, it is safe to say that most people have a match between their gender and their sex. So most people would not welcome such an item. There are folks who might see this "curse" as fortuitous.
Lastly, the existence of this item doesn't prevent the crafting of a non-cursed item based on the alter self spell that does the exact same thing without the "cursed" attributes, ie. points 1 and 2 above.
I was refering to those that have been physically altered.
Those that have not, are merely suffering a culturally-induced identity crisis. Still problematic for them but such will always occur during major cultural transitions.
I don't think it's offensive, but I don't have any gender identity issues either so perhaps I just don't understand.
At the very least I'm sure Paizo didn't mean for it be offensive or a condemnation or judgement on anyone. It's a classic cursed item from well before Paizo existed. Perhaps it's a relic that shouldn't be used any more or even reprinted. I dunno.
Would it be offensive if there was a cursed item that randomly changed your character's sexual orientation from whatever it was to:
1) Heterosexual
2) Homosexual
3) Bisexual
4) Asexual
5) Pansexual
I honestly don't know, again I wouldn't think it was offensive but maybe I just lack perspective.
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Just like many other cursed items, it will in rare instances be useful. Many cursed items don't allow saving throws against their hefty effects; that's pretty powerful if you weaponize it.
But they're cursed because often you don't know about this in advance, and it's a rude surprise.
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Is it offensive? That's a matter of taste. I can see where this thing originated in the 70s-80s as something that one sexually insecure, maladjusted nerd inflicted on another similar specimen, also living in his parent's basement. So yeah, it didn't start out as a sterling example of maturity.
But immaturity doesn't have to be all that offensive. Personally I think it's just crude humour, but then I'm not easily offended.
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Honestly I am offended at the horridly stupid levels PC-ness has gotten and that groups like LGBT communities can get away with things like "this offends me" as if the whole world has to cater to them. :p
/rant
Again where is this can't remove coming from? The PRD say's its an instant change to opposite/gender neutral and then the same belt can't affect you again nothing in there about having to keep wearing it or the effect ending when you take it off?
Good call. I retract my earlier mulishness. (Sorry Pan!) Undoing the effect requires remove curse, not undoing ones trousers.
I lounge corrected.
Anyway, here is my old post in an old thread about this item.
That is a pretty great post.
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That is a pretty great post.
Anyway, here is my old post in an old thread about this item.
I whole heartedly agree.
Honestly I am offended at the horridly stupid levels PC-ness has gotten and that groups like LGBT communities can get away with things like "this offends me" as if the whole world has to cater to them. :p
/rant
That's an issue with American society in general, I think. Politically Correctness has gotten so far out of control to the point now that it's starting to become an infringement on 1st Amendment Rights (this is just an American perspective).
Granted there is a huge difference between having a difference of opinion on a subject and hateful, inflammatory speech. Unfortunately with how sensitive many of these type subjects are... the line between the two is often blurred and easily misconstrued.
Also, I don't necessarily see it as these individuals expecting the world to cater to them, as feeling the need to be understood and respected. You can respect an individual as a person and human without necessarily agreeing with their views.
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I'd say that someone who's trans would understand better than anyone how much it sucks to be the "wrong" gender against your will.
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That is a pretty great post.
Anyway, here is my old post in an old thread about this item.I whole heartedly agree.
Honestly I am offended at the horridly stupid levels PC-ness has gotten and that groups like LGBT communities can get away with things like "this offends me" as if the whole world has to cater to them. :p
/rant
That's an issue with American society in general, I think. Politically Correctness has gotten so far out of control to the point now that it's starting to become an infringement on 1st Amendment Rights (this is just an American perspective).
Granted there is a huge difference between having a difference of opinion on a subject and hateful, inflammatory speech. Unfortunately with how sensitive many of these type subjects are... the line between the two is often blurred and easily misconstrued.
This thread could get ugly, so I want this to be as non-inflammatory as possible. But the 1st amendment gives freedom of speech; it doesn't say that anyone has to sit there and hear your speech and not respond if it offends them.
As a straight white male, I'm the quintessential "playing life on easy mode" guy. I try to be as supportive as I can be to the LGBT community and my wife is black, if that gives you an idea as to my position on racial prejudice. But like anyone, I'm occasionally going to say something that comes off as insensitive. For instance, I was speaking with someone a few years ago who is a pre-op trans male, and I used a term that he found insensitive (I can't remember, I think it was "tranny"). I was told it's not the preferred term, and I stopped. That was the end of it. He knew I wasn't trying to be offensive, and he didn't jump all over me about it, and I tried to delete it from my vocabulary.
I do think that if someone tells you something offends them, you should endeavor to stop. That's not political correctness, it's common courtesy. Unless you think for some reason you should still use the term, at which point it has nothing to do with political correctness; you're just a jerk. (not you, but the generic you.)
This thread could get ugly, so I want this to be as non-inflammatory as possible. But the 1st amendment gives freedom of speech; it doesn't say that anyone has to sit there and hear your speech and not respond if it offends them.
As a straight white male, I'm the quintessential "playing life on easy mode" guy. I try to be as supportive as I can be to the LGBT community and my wife is black, if that gives you an idea as to my position on racial prejudice. But like anyone, I'm occasionally going to say something that comes off as insensitive. For instance, I was speaking with someone a few years ago who is a pre-op trans male, and I used a term that he found insensitive (I can't remember, I think it was "tranny"). I was told it's not the preferred term, and I stopped. That was the end of it. He knew I wasn't trying to be offensive, and he didn't jump all over me about it, and I tried to delete it from my vocabulary.
I do think that if someone tells you something offends them, you should endeavor to stop. That's not political correctness, it's common courtesy. Unless you think for some reason you should still use the term, at which point it has nothing to do with political correctness; you're just a jerk. (not you, but the generic you.)
That's essentially what I was attempting to say. I suppose my statement about it being an infringement was a bit to the extreme... so I'll recant that statement. (I'll reference previous statement "Unfortunately with how sensitive many of these type subjects are... the line between the two is often blurred and easily misconstrued") I, like you MyTThor, am a straight white male so I also can't fully appreciate what is means to be subjected to such wide spread discrimination. I would also like to keep everything civil.
However, I think we are starting to digress from the OP's question about the GoOG. I don't necessarily think it should be removed from the Pathfinder game, as it's intent is not all meant to be insensitive; however, that being said... The GM is God as far as Pathfinder is concerned and can completely ignore any or all things they find to be offensive in nature.
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Honestly I am offended at the horridly stupid levels PC-ness has gotten and that groups like LGBT communities can get away with things like "this offends me" as if the whole world has to cater to them. :p
/rant
I know, it's terrible, right? Just like you can't say the n word because it offends those pesky African-Americans. They shouldn't have any right to say what is hurtful to them. Only you should get to decide what is hurtful to other people.
/sarcasm
If I didn't hear African-Americans use the word all the freakin' time, I might agree with you.
Ain't no Constitutional right that says you shall not be offended. I agree with Stephen Fry:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what."
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What happens if you slap a GoOG on a Warforged?
(I'm sure the answer is 'nothing', but it's a fun visual somehow.)
Oh, old memory alert. Back in 1e, females had lower stat maxima than males ... so if you had really good stats, you could be significantly impacted by the girdle mechanically.
This actually happened in one of my games. The Warforged that got it has some minor stat changes and the chassis took on a more feminine form, not at broad, suggestion of hips and a chest that ended up being a container for potions. The player kept the change and role played the interaction between "her" and other warforged with grace.
It was... memorable.
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Honestly I am offended at the horridly stupid levels PC-ness has gotten and that groups like LGBT communities can get away with things like "this offends me" as if the whole world has to cater to them. :p
/rant
I know, it's terrible, right? Just like you can't say the n word because it offends those pesky African-Americans. They shouldn't have any right to say what is hurtful to them. Only you should get to decide what is hurtful to other people.
/sarcasm
If I didn't hear African-Americans use the word all the freakin' time, I might agree with you.
Ain't no Constitutional right that says you shall not be offended. I agree with Stephen Fry:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what."
There is also no Constitutional right to protect one from others calling one on their insensitive and ignorant utterances.
And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.