What are the benefits of Pathfinder? A teacher wants to know.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

101 to 139 of 139 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

GM Harpwizard wrote:
I am a teacher at a small rural high school and for the last week of the academic year, I am allowed to teach any topic of my choice. I would like to teach my students how to play Pathfinder. I was thinking that I could teach them the rules, make characters, run them through some PFS scenarios, and even perhaps take them on a field trip to play some Pathfinder Society with other players. However, I need to justify this subject is some academic way. I am looking for some help in being able to articulate to my administration why Pathfinder would be so beneficial to my students. What are some of those life long skills that I am trying to teach that can be taught through role playing games? What are the 21st century skills that this game fosters? If any of you have some thoughts on the matter, or can refer me to some articles, I would be most appreciative.

I also teach. In this day and age, you want to stress how the game will improve student gains on standardized test. Admin tends to care mostly about those scores and how to bring them up. There's a lot of reading involved in playing the game, some of it fairly complex (certainly WRT vocabulary, although the old AD&D books were written on a higher grade level, I think). Math is involved, and can be MORE involved if you want it to be (if you want to have REAL fun, go back to having to calculate the volume of a sphere for fireballs).

And read your Ravitch! Not exactly related, but important!


Very interesting thread, especially once Mosaic entered it.

I ask the teachers talking here: aren't you concerned about angry Christian parents freaking out? I know I would be.

Cap. Darling wrote:
Does the wyroot coup de grace work? i always consedered the confirmation rool to be the important part of tthe text so no point back on coup de grace in my game.

By pure rule, yes, and we stick to pure rule for almost everything in our games because it makes things less argumentative. It's a goofy combo, sure, but wyroot is a goofy material to begin with.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
beej67 wrote:
... I ask the teachers talking here: aren't you concerned about angry Christian parents freaking out? I know I would be. ...

It is rather silly, but if don't use the words "Dungeons and Dragons" you almost never get that reaction. Those people don't actually know anything about what sent them on evil book burning rants. They just heard 5th hand that it was devil worship and drove kids insane.

Try something like, "Many people of all ages are playng these online games where you pretend to be some fantastic warrior with lots of people. It's alot like those except using paper and pencil with the other players in the same room as you."

I have used this description with several fundamentalist religious people that had no problems with it. Some of them I have specifically heard still preaching the evils of Dungeons and Dragons from the pulpit. One even said, "Well as long as you don't bring in that evil Dragon Dungeon Demon worshiping game it's ok."

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Never been to Texas, so not sure what that is about.

For you and others who missed it: I'm referring to this guy. Given that Texas, as the single leading purchaser of school textbooks in the United States, has an obscene amount of say in what schools across the country get, we unfortunately all have an obligation to be aware of this sort of thing. Even if you've never been to Texas, that doesn't mean Texas has never been to you (For Our Friends In Foreign Lands: I'm afraid you'd be wise to pay attention to this sort of thing too; consider it a humanitarian crisis - are there no great an enlightened nations willing to intervene? We'll greet you as liberators, promise!).

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:


Spoiler:

In my (admittedly limited) experience, the psychologists and sociologist are sadly lacking in rational critical thought, don't actually observe anything (they pick and chose from other people's observations), observe but only include the observations that support their pet hypothesis, confuse causation/correlation, etc...
In every single case where I had any first hand experience or information on the subject involved, they were way off base.
I went to a counselor to try and learn some coping strategies to deal with a job I hated until I could afford to move. Counselor was bound and determined to convince me that my parents abused me.
Study on cognitive psychology proving how and why organic thought is so superior to 'computerized thought.' Thesis is supportable, but every example but 1 on what computers can or can't do was incorrect at the time it was being written. Author was at least 20-25 years out of date on what computers, programs, and algorithms can do and have done. Which in the computer industry is huge expanse of time. But the author didn't even bother to check to see if anything had changed in the last couple of decades.
I got volunteered to be part of an observational study. The professor insisted I was a latent left handed person because I kept my wallet in my left rear pocket. Incorrect. It was a long term habit because the slacks I used to get only had a button on the left rear pocket not the right rear pocket. I wanted the wallet secure, so kept it in that pocket. I have kept the habit because I now keep my phone in the right rear pocket. The prof insisted I was a latent left handed person and just didn't realize it. When leaving I picked up my bag with my left hand and the prof jumped on that to prove I was a latent lefty. Incorrect. Over the years my left arm is a bit stronger than my right arm. This is because I have made a conscious decision to carry things with my left hand (when only using one hand) to keep my much more coordinated right hand free. I can write, use keys, open a combination lock, use a phone, etc... with my right hand. Prof stated that I only made that decision because I was a latent lefty. If I hadn't been I wouldn't have made the decision.
I have a few other examples, but I won't go into them at this time since they end up fairly similar.

Are all of the psychologists and sociologists complete flakes? No. I never said they were. But my personal experiences have made me less able to accept their word than almost any other 'expert analysis' profession that can think of at this time.

Spoiler:
Ow. BAD LUCK. I'm sorry. Psychology (I'll leave out "sociology" both because that's an umbrella term rather than what you'd think of as a 'field,' and because this all came up because of something that can be safely categorized as psychology) is a great example of how science has limitations (and that that's okay), and a great test of those limitations - it's as "soft" as a science can get while still worthy of the title "science." It's also a very young science (and all the struggles and hurdles that would imply), but it's already proved its mettle impressively - the problem, however, is that while it does great with groups and on the 'science' level, it doesn't do as well dealing with individuals and attempts to apply it as medicine (consider that the 'engineering' level), which is what two out of three of your stories are about (also, I'm not sure what a 'counselor' is - that's a title practically anyone can snag at a summer camp outfit; they're not the same as, for example, the authors of Snakes In Suits). I've been seeing shrinks since I was 6 years old, and I have a substantial background in psychology (as well as other forms of "sociology"), and I know how to separate wheat from chaff. All I'll say is, if, as it sounds, you've come to feel it's pseudoscience, I assure you it's not. As I said, your introduction to psychology took the form of, shall we say, a long string of failed Gather Information (and possibly Sense Motive/Linguistics) checks and excessively high rolls on contact other plane spells, possibly with circumstance/competence penalties due to where you live (I obviously have no idea), who you know, and who they know - that happens, now doesn't it? In your case, I would suggest with unadulterated sincerity getting to know more about psychology from sources (auditing classes, reading books, meeting people) you wouldn't otherwise bother to look into - if you hate the place you work, should it really come as a surprise if whoever runs it hires a "counselor" who doesn't get you any better than the rest of the outfit does? Don't make the mistake of restricting yourself to what you think might be useful to your profession, no matter how much you may like it; go off the beaten path and seek knowledge for its own sake - it's been recognized since antiquity as the signature of a free man. ;)
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:


I have used this description with several fundamentalist religious people that had no problems with it. Some of them I have specifically heard still preaching the evils of Dungeons and Dragons from the pulpit. One even said, "Well as long as you don't bring in that evil Dragon Dungeon Demon worshiping game it's ok."

I'm reminded of something I was once linked to:

"The shortest verse in the Bible is 'Jesus wept.' The only thing wrong with it is the past tense." - Randy K. Milholland


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
beej67 wrote:
... I ask the teachers talking here: aren't you concerned about angry Christian parents freaking out? I know I would be. ...

It is rather silly, but if don't use the words "Dungeons and Dragons" you almost never get that reaction. Those people don't actually know anything about what sent them on evil book burning rants. They just heard 5th hand that it was devil worship and drove kids insane.

Try something like, "Many people of all ages are playng these online games where you pretend to be some fantastic warrior with lots of people. It's alot like those except using paper and pencil with the other players in the same room as you."

I have used this description with several fundamentalist religious people that had no problems with it. Some of them I have specifically heard still preaching the evils of Dungeons and Dragons from the pulpit. One even said, "Well as long as you don't bring in that evil Dragon Dungeon Demon worshiping game it's ok."

That's hilarious.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
beej67 wrote:
... I ask the teachers talking here: aren't you concerned about angry Christian parents freaking out? I know I would be. ...

It is rather silly, but if don't use the words "Dungeons and Dragons" you almost never get that reaction. Those people don't actually know anything about what sent them on evil book burning rants. They just heard 5th hand that it was devil worship and drove kids insane.

Try something like, "Many people of all ages are playng these online games where you pretend to be some fantastic warrior with lots of people. It's alot like those except using paper and pencil with the other players in the same room as you."

I have used this description with several fundamentalist religious people that had no problems with it. Some of them I have specifically heard still preaching the evils of Dungeons and Dragons from the pulpit. One even said, "Well as long as you don't bring in that evil Dragon Dungeon Demon worshiping game it's ok."

As both a (former*) teacher and a fundamentalist Christian, the answer is... sort of.

It really depends on who you talk to, why you're talking to them, and about what.

To me, doing this in a public way,

* I stopped driving four hours every day for a minimal salary in order to stay at home with my son. A lot more work for no pay, but totally worth it. :)


Bumping to include this link:

"How We Won The War On Dungeons And Dragons."

Dark Archive

I use PFS as an aid in the teaching of social skills to patients with special needs, particularly with individuals who have mild to moderate cases of Autism Spectrum Disorder. The predecessors of Pathfinder, namely D&D 3.5, were a large contributor in how I learned the skills that I teach today. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavor, this game has value as a learning tool that is engaging and entertaining to boot.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I want to thank you all for your support, encouragement and insightful comments. Without your input, I probably would not have dared attempt this. However, you may be interested to know that a colleague and I have turned these plans into a small Pathfinder Convention at my school for the last two weeks of the year. With parent and administration support, we are set to run a two week Pathfinder Experience all through Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Our final course description borrowed from some suggestions shared here but came out as follows:

Course Description:
Do you crave adventure? Have you ever wanted to be the hero in your own exciting story? Well, now’s your chance. Sign up for “Pathfinder” today. Develop your skills in socialization, team-building, problem solving, optimization, visualization, mathematical modeling, creative writing, cause and effect, and imagination. This class will teach you to think critically and solve problems while learning a character based, table top game called Pathfinder. Set in a fictitious world of magic and adventure in the spirit of stories like “The Hobbit,” “The Lord of the Rings,” “Percy Jackson,” and “Harry Potter,” you will engage in a variety of reading from creative fiction to technical writing. You will develop a working understanding of simple statistics and probability, as well as practice applying abstract formula and rule systems to a variety of situations. Besides learning the rules of the game, you will also learn how to write about interesting and complex characters who become the heroes in these stories. Playing Pathfinder will also help you feel more comfortable using mathematics in situations outside of class and will help you to better understand things like formulas, measurements and probability. So take a chance, try something new, and sign-up to become an adventurer today!

We have 28 teenagers signed up and registered for PFS. Some are in it for five days and some for ten, but for the last ten days of school we are running them through ten different PFS scenarios for credit. We will start with the Confirmation and then run through a rotation of other things such as Frostfur Caverns, Cyphermage Dilemma, Glass River Rescue, Veteran's Vault, Rise of the Goblin Guild and more. We have spent the last few weeks creating characters and developing backgrounds. We've trained a few D&D 3.5 playing students about the differences of pathfinder and they are going to help us by running a scenario each. We've bought lots of dice, miniatures, flip maps and binders to help keep their characters and chronicle sheets organized. Their enthusiasm level is extraordinary! Tomorrow is the big day and we are thrilled to be spreading Pathfinder to the younger generation. Thanks again for all of your contributions to this thread.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wow. That is awesome.


Great to hear; please post a recap of the experience once you're done. :)


That's awesome, man!

Also...

Tacticslion wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
beej67 wrote:
... I ask the teachers talking here: aren't you concerned about angry Christian parents freaking out? I know I would be. ...

It is rather silly, but if don't use the words "Dungeons and Dragons" you almost never get that reaction. Those people don't actually know anything about what sent them on evil book burning rants. They just heard 5th hand that it was devil worship and drove kids insane.

Try something like, "Many people of all ages are playng these online games where you pretend to be some fantastic warrior with lots of people. It's alot like those except using paper and pencil with the other players in the same room as you."

I have used this description with several fundamentalist religious people that had no problems with it. Some of them I have specifically heard still preaching the evils of Dungeons and Dragons from the pulpit. One even said, "Well as long as you don't bring in that evil Dragon Dungeon Demon worshiping game it's ok."

As both a (former*) teacher and a fundamentalist Christian, the answer is... sort of.

It really depends on who you talk to, why you're talking to them, and about what.

To me, doing this in a public way,

* I stopped driving four hours every day for a minimal salary in order to stay at home with my son. A lot more work for no pay, but totally worth it. :)

Haha, three-month old post, no idea what I was going to say, probably distracted by my toddler. Oops.

God bless you, though!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
GM Harpwizard wrote:

I want to thank you all for your support, encouragement and insightful comments. Without your input, I probably would not have dared attempt this. However, you may be interested to know that a colleague and I have turned these plans into a small Pathfinder Convention at my school for the last two weeks of the year. With parent and administration support, we are set to run a two week Pathfinder Experience all through Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Our final course description borrowed from some suggestions shared here but came out as follows:

** spoiler omitted **

We have 28 teenagers signed up and registered for PFS. Some are in it for five days and some for ten, but for the last ten days of school we are...

Please let us know how it goes. My wife is trying to work up the courage to propose something similar at her school.


I'm glad to hear that you got this going! I wish they'd had gaming-as-curriculum at my school growing up. We had to sneak it into the back corner of the public library but that was ok. Stone walls, gothic windows and heavy oak tables made a great setting for kids learning to game!

Keep us updated on the Con. Maybe I can pitch your experience to my kids' schools and see if anyone would be willing to get it going there.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Our first week was a huge success! The players were very quick to pick up the rules and by the end of the week they had a great working vocabulary. I took delight in listening to a few students discuss with each other if they should grapple a goblin. The wizard replied, "No way! My CMB is not nearly high enough to attempt that!"

They certainly loved Frostfur Captives.

Spoiler:
I love the way two different groups handled the goblins. One group practically mothered the captives and grabbed them by the hand to prevent them from joining the battle. Another group put them under a sleep spell to stop them from attacking.

Overall, the enthusiasm level has been phenomenal. Our assistant administrator came in yesterday and told me that she had never seen students so excited about a June Term. She said although she they could not understand what they were talking about, she could not mistake their huge excitement for Pathfinder!

I've also taken delight in watching these students learn to role play. They started out a little shy, but as I've used different voices for my npcs and monsters, they've started loosening up and trying things themselves. We had a great moment in the Rise of the Goblin Guild.

Spoiler:
A halfling rogue left the party out in the hallway and waked into Inoklar's throne room and began talking to her. She demanded to know how he got there. He said that he wanted to join the Nightsoil Mauraders and Inoklar then demanded that he go find some Wayfinders to prove himself. Then he came back a few minutes later with a collection of wayfinders from the party. Inoklar was flabbergasted and invited the thief to approach and deliver them to her. But the halfling managed to spot the trap just before he reached her.

This little rogue, who was rather timid up until this adventure, began role playing nearly every encounter he could from here on out.

We all had a great time! When the entire table of players has to stand up to see how the combat finishes, I know I have them right where I want them. Excited to be a part of this game!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Good Job man! Awesome!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yay for roleplay and education!

(And an amazing teacher!)

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm a bit late to the party, but I wanted to point out a non-math-related RPG benefit that were mentioned early on... before the duel. (I agree that Good At Math people who practice their skills in RPGs can go on to get jobs that involve being good at math; I feel the real value in that area is for people who are Bad At Math to get comfortable enough with the basic stuff used in PF that they lose their phobia.)

Empathy: We gamers put on and take off personalities pretty regularly, and that leads to a certain broadness of viewpoint. It's startlingly common nowadays for people to say, "Every opinion I have happens to be the only correct one, and everybody who disagrees with me is either A) stupid B) crazy or C) secretly plotting against me." I've noticed that in general, somebody who's role-played Lawful Good, Chaotic Neutral and everything in between tends to understand that different people can have different priorities and values without necessarily being A, B, or C. It's a really valuable lesson. On a related note, somebody who's adventured as, or beside, gnomes and half-orcs and tengu and whatever-the-flavor-of-the-week is does not tend, in later life, to assume that somebody with a different complexion or orientation or hairstyle is The Enemy. (Somehow this is true even though the vast majority of games assume it's OK to kill orcs and loot their corpses.)

I was going to go on - Diplomacy checks train one in public speaking a lot earlier than Speech class, and deciding which party member gets the magic hammer teaches negotiation skills, and so on - but honestly a lot of the best stuff has already been said.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

As a student in this class, I'd just like to add that it was a fantastic class, and I'm so glad I was able to end high school on such a fun note. :) Thanks to GM Harpwizard and GM Wombat for making this happen, and thanks to you all for helping!

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ascalaphus wrote:
As a Dutch kid I learned a great deal of English by reading the 2.5 D&D books. Wanting to actually read cool stuff like the Bestiary can be a powerful motivation to learn a language. (Not so useful if you're a native English speaker though.)

Not entirely true. I am from the States and I definitely became a better reader/writer of my native language because of AD&D. I would skip school lunches to gain money for books. I saved money from mowing lawns, shoveling walks, and a paper route just to get that next book I didn't have. Words I didn't understand; I looked up in dictionaries.

One other thing that was not mentioned, critical thinking. I am much stronger in reading comprehension and analytical mathematics, but it is my ability to look at situations in real life and make apt decisions that has really proven the usefulness of this game.

I am a safer, more intelligent person because of AD&D. I even attribute some of my parenting style to this game.

Irrie.


I am a teacher at a Lutheran (Christian) K-8 school and have been considering offering to run a Pathfinder game after school next year (I'd run Shackled City because I already have everything I need for that).

Here is my idea and I invite your comments:
( 1 ) Open to 5th - 8th grades (that's roughly 9 to 14 year olds).
( 2 ) I'd run two groups (if enough people are interested), one as the expected PC group and another group taking the place of the Stormblades. This will be easy to do for the first half of the AP, but will start to get much trickier from Lords of Oblivion onward (with the exception of Foundation of Flame).
( 3 ) Each group would play once every two weeks. There would be no new session unless the group has completed their campaign journal. Each player would have to do their own write-up and then one player would have to synthesize all of those into a single journal entry. The summarizer would rotate so everyone had a turn.
( 4 ) Players must not have any missing assignments in any of their classes in order to play. A player who has missing assignments must spend the session completing missing work (their character does not gain any XP nor loot for that day).
( 5 ) Players must maintain a 3.0 (but maybe only a 2.0 [I'm not sure about this one]) in order to participate.


Congrats to those teachers that can make this work. A word of caution...

I tried to start a gaming group at a high school where I taught several different courses and ages. It was students who asked me to start the group after they learned that I played D&D in university. I was happy to oblige. Players were all juniors and seniors. Started out fine but soon became a very ugly experience.

The parents of one of the seniors decided to go on a crusade against the group and me personally. I was teaching in a small community. They made it very clear that my life was going to be very difficult unless I switch the group over to Settlers of Catan or some such. They came and made a scene at a parent teacher night, and complained to the principal.

Yes, I did get the kids to have permission slips signed, and when I discovered that the senior with the militant parents had forged signatures I told him that he would not be able to participate. That wasn't good enough for his parents and they began rallying their church congregration against me when I told them that I respect their decision not to allow their child to participate, but they would not be able to close the group to all students because they disagree with the game on religious grounds. I am religious myself, and tried to convince them that I am sensitive to their concerns. All my attempts to have the situation resolve amicably failed.

It became too much hassle for me and I closed the club.

So, I strongly recommend that you speak with the parents of all club members in advance to confirm that they are fine with their kids participating. Hopefully my experience is completely atypical.


Have not tried it in a school yet, hopefully this fall.

Usually I have found that there is little to no problem with acceptance if you can avoid using that dreaded name Dungeons & Dragons! Since most of them don't actually know anything about what they are 'against' they are only reacting to the label. Use a different label and they don't react.

I introduce the topic as "It's like the online MMORPG's that many people are involved with except that it's in the same room face to face around a table. I prefer the social interaction of being around people vs. the faceless computer screen. It's a little more work that way, but I think it is worth it."

I have only met one 'crusader against' that actually knew anything about the 'against' to make the connection between D&D and PF. He is so far out on the right wing that even the other crusaders ignore him.

It is not a perfect solution and won't always work. And yes I absolutely will be sure all the parents are really on board with it. In fact, I intend to offer the parents a chance to participate and learn what it is really about.


I wish you all the best friend! Like I said, hopefully my experience is just an outlier.


So what were the lessons like?

Was it just gaming, or were there other lesson plans tied to the game? Like, "Write a five part essay on the best way to sweep and clear goblins from a cave" or "rank these three concepts for burst DPS" or "develop a Visual Basic program that can allocate skill and attribute points on a character sheet" or something?

I'd love to see some of these lesson plans.


Not sure if you were asking me, but mine was a gaming club during non-instruction time. No lesson plans. Just gaming.

That said, I think that the game has some great teaching potential! Your question gets the wheels turning...


What grade is this being offered to? Many of the benefits listed seem to be very sub optimal to a high school education. The math being the one that worries me most. The math involved in table top gaming is juvenile simple addition and extremely basic statistics and probability. Well below the curriculum I was taught when I attended high school.

Don't get me wrong as I would have loved a D&D class in school, but I don't feel it would have been a good substitute for the teaching I was given. Especially for any technical pursuits.

All the best to you in this endeavor and hopefully everyone has a great time.


Khrysaor wrote:

What grade is this being offered to? Many of the benefits listed seem to be very sub optimal to a high school education. The math being the one that worries me most. The math involved in table top gaming is juvenile simple addition and extremely basic statistics and probability. Well below the curriculum I was taught when I attended high school.

Don't get me wrong as I would have loved a D&D class in school, but I don't feel it would have been a good substitute for the teaching I was given.

All the best to you in this endeavor and hopefully everyone has a great time.

I agree that the teaching benefits are limited. Nevertheless, even older students can benefit from the social aspects of the game. Learning how to problem solve as a group, seeing issues from different points of view, even social mores and conventions when handling objections and competing plans are all potential benefits. Shared story telling is a staple of many drama courses at the high school level.

Could it be construed as official curriculum worthy? Probably not. It is more of an enrichment activity than a replacement of core subjects or instruction.

I didn't try to introduce the game as a teaching tool, and I'm not sure that I would recommend it as such. As an option for students to have some fun in a club that piques their interest more than chess or badminton or some other activity, it is/can be worthwhile.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pappy wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
What grade is this being offered to? Many of the benefits listed seem to be very sub optimal to a high school education. The math being the one that worries me most. The math involved in table top gaming is juvenile simple addition and extremely basic statistics and probability. Well below the curriculum I was taught when I attended high school....
I agree that the teaching benefits are limited. Nevertheless, even older students can benefit from the social aspects of the game. Learning how to problem solve as a group, seeing issues from different points of view, even social mores and conventions when handling objections and competing plans are all potential benefits. ...

I don't think there is much chance of it becoming a class room replacement on any level. However, at the late elementary and junior high level I think it is very much worth while.

What is the hardest part of teaching a kid reading or math? It is not normally the material it is getting them to practice it enough to become good at it. You can teach most 3rd graders to do basic addition. But some of them get through high school without really getting much better because they don't do it any more than they absolutely must. And maybe not even that much.

Both of my younger children struggled with reading and to a lesser extent with mathematics (especially story problems). One has a learning disability the other just refused to work at anything. Then suddenly halfway through a semester both of their teachers asked us what we did to get them so turned around at school. It was actually very simple. We found a pretty complex game that they like that had dozens of books worth of rules. (This was 3.0 at the time.) Those kids that didn't read comics because they were too hard were poring through books to find stuff they could use. It required some subtle (or maybe not so subtle)encouragement on my part, but it worked.
"Hey dad, what else can my ranger buy so he can fight better? I can't afford the sword he's selling."
"Maybe he could make you a wand. A spell like bulls strength or shield would let him fight better for a while."
"What's that do?"
"I don't remember exactly check it out in the spell sections. Make sure they're on your list. You might not be able to afford a full wand though." (I intentionally picked a spell that wasn't on his list but would have been cheaper.)
He had to look up 2 spells on tables, read the description, decide whether it was what he wanted based on the description, figure out how much a wand would cost, realize he couldn't afford a full one, and figure out how much it would cost for a partially full one.
He then decided he didn't want it.
So then he's looking up some other possibility. In a couple of months their reading went from the bottom of the class to solidly in the middle. They also no longer had to add and subtract on their fingers for every simple number combination. They had to constantly add and subtract numbers constantly just to play the game and the practice showed. And the whole flipping thing is a giant story problem.

So no, I don't look at it as a replacement for a standard class. I look for it as a way to get kids to practice what the class has taught them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

WH00T ! ! !

"Adventure Gaming" was just approved as an elective for me to teach for the coming school year ! ! !

It will be open to 5th - 8th graders, but the class is capped at six students and with 8th grade getting to choose first, it'll probably fill with older students first.

I'll do Shackled City because I've already run that 1.5 times and am very familiar with it.

As far as lessons, here are what I'll require:
( 1 ) Pupils will keep a character journal of the adventure as it progresses. Each quarter will culminate in students cooperating to write a story of the adventure so far.
( 2 ) Pupils will be required to read fantasy novels. Chronicles of Narnia, Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, Tolkein, Ann MacCaffrey, Robert E. Howard, R.A. Salvatore, etc. All books are subject to my approval.

In class, I'll ask questions like, "Okay, the DC is 15, and your skill check is 7. What do you have to roll on a d20 to succeed and what is your probability of success?" But I'll also be asking them to use context clues to draw conclusions about interactions with npc's, cooperate to solve problems, analyze and solve those problems.

Now, community, how do I grade this class?
A reading log and their journal is one obvious way.
Their cooperation/citizenship will also factor into it.
Should their level matter?
Should I quiz them on vocabulary? Rules?


Khrysaor wrote:

What grade is this being offered to? Many of the benefits listed seem to be very sub optimal to a high school education. The math being the one that worries me most. The math involved in table top gaming is juvenile simple addition and extremely basic statistics and probability. Well below the curriculum I was taught when I attended high school.

Don't get me wrong as I would have loved a D&D class in school, but I don't feel it would have been a good substitute for the teaching I was given. Especially for any technical pursuits.

As a math teacher, I would easily say that there is not much in the way of high school math curriculum. However, they did do a lot of reading and journaling. As I reflect upon Cabot Con, I would say for me, the greatest benefit comes from building relationships with students in ways that we are not always able to do as their classroom teachers. When they see me open myself up, take a risk, and share a passion for something outside of school, then they start to see me as a human being. When I return to my classes next week, my work will be much easier because I will have shared a common experience with them and we will all have a stronger relationship because of it! In a classroom where respect and community are strong, discipline becomes a non issue and learning flourishes.

Mykull wrote:
"Adventure Gaming" was just approved as an elective for me to teach for the coming school year ! ! !

Congratulations! This sounds like it is going to be a great year! Please give periodic updates on how it is going. Will this be happening after school or during the school day?

Mykull wrote:

Now, community, how do I grade this class?

A reading log and their journal is one obvious way.
Their cooperation/citizenship will also factor into it.
Should their level matter?
Should I quiz them on vocabulary? Rules?

As always, grade it based on what you consider most important. Certainly the reading log and journal sound very good. Vocabulary could become very important as they learn to be better story tellers. With regards to cooperation, I tend not to grade based on their level of talking, especially with introverted students, but perhaps a rubric based on their effort and participation. If they are doing a lot of reading of the core rulebook, a quiz to see that they did the reading would be useful.

Good luck and have a great time!


Mykull wrote:

WH00T ! ! !

"Adventure Gaming" was just approved as an elective for me to teach for the coming school year ! ! !

It will be open to 5th - 8th graders, but the class is capped at six students and with 8th grade getting to choose first, it'll probably fill with older students first.

I'll do Shackled City because I've already run that 1.5 times and am very familiar with it.

As far as lessons, here are what I'll require:
( 1 ) Pupils will keep a character journal of the adventure as it progresses. Each quarter will culminate in students cooperating to write a story of the adventure so far.
( 2 ) Pupils will be required to read fantasy novels. Chronicles of Narnia, Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, Tolkein, Ann MacCaffrey, Robert E. Howard, R.A. Salvatore, etc. All books are subject to my approval.

In class, I'll ask questions like, "Okay, the DC is 15, and your skill check is 7. What do you have to roll on a d20 to succeed and what is your probability of success?" But I'll also be asking them to use context clues to draw conclusions about interactions with npc's, cooperate to solve problems, analyze and solve those problems.

Now, community, how do I grade this class?
A reading log and their journal is one obvious way.
Their cooperation/citizenship will also factor into it.
Should their level matter?
Should I quiz them on vocabulary? Rules?

I don't think level should matter, but given that you'll only have six students, I don't see how there could be any level disparity to gradethem on. (Or maybe I've misunderstood the question?)

No one ever went wrong with a vocab quiz, and rules are a perfect opportunity to test reading comprehension, like math word problems, but with a much more engaging subject than two trains heading towards each other from different cities.

Anyhow, this is great news; congratulations! :)


I'm pretty sure part of the reason I'm able to go to Berkeley law on scholarship is due to my years and years of playing D&D. Constantly reading, re-reading and analyzing small minutiae and close-reading... It's pretty great.


Some of my students created an award winning short movie about our Pathfinder experience at CabotCon and related it to building character in our school. They are presenting it at the Rowland Foundation's Conference this week. My contribution, besides GMing them through a lot of PFS scenarios, is the harp playing in the background.

Killing Goblins Together


It's great that this worked out so well for you. There's still strong resistance to any kind of tabletop RPG in my area, at least as far as school involvement.

Sovereign Court

Lavawight wrote:
It's great that this worked out so well for you. There's still strong resistance to any kind of tabletop RPG in my area, at least as far as school involvement.

I actually agree that schools shouldn't pay for such things. But it seems fine as an after-school club etc.

Then again - I don't think schools should pay for sports teams either. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Puna'chong wrote:
I'm pretty sure part of the reason I'm able to go to Berkeley law on scholarship is due to my years and years of playing D&D

This is not politically correct, and therefore must be wrong. :-)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Lavawight wrote:
It's great that this worked out so well for you. There's still strong resistance to any kind of tabletop RPG in my area, at least as far as school involvement.

I actually agree that schools shouldn't pay for such things. But it seems fine as an after-school club etc.

Then again - I don't think schools should pay for sports teams either. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I agree the school shouldn't pay for it, but I meant that after school clubs are also not allowed, or anything else for that matter, including using any sort of TTRPG as a teaching tool.

In some places, it's a distant remnant of the BADD fiasco in the 80s, and some of the smaller communities view such games as religiously offensive.

Sovereign Court

Lavawight wrote:
In some places, it's a distant remnant of the BADD fiasco in the 80s, and some of the smaller communities view such games as religiously offensive.

Most of the crazies have moved on to blaming video games for the corruption of the country's youth by now. :P

There have always been people blaming something new for the world's woes, be it video games, D&D, or rock & roll. (At least there was an argument for rock & roll as the crime rate did skyrocket in the late 60's, but it's been going down pretty steadily since 1980ish)

Heck - go back far enough and some of the ancient Greeks were saying that the written word would become a crutch and destroy people's memories. (True to some degree - but I don't think any could argue that the benefits don't outweight the negatives.)

101 to 139 of 139 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / What are the benefits of Pathfinder? A teacher wants to know. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.