Which rules (if any) do you find absurd and / or unnecessary?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Zhayne wrote:

Druid armor limitations.

It's METAL.
It comes out of the ground. It's on the periodic table of elements.
It's completely natural.

So my Uranium-powered Druid Mecha is go, then?


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Why not?

Druids can take the Earth domain, and the Subdomains thereof, which includes the Radiation domain.


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Some restrictions always bugged me.

Metal armor for druids but not metal weapons? Disregard that Ironwood armor is technically as manufactured as metal armor.

The alignment ones are even worse.

Now disregarding problems people have with alignment as a game concept on it's own, how do justify;

Cavaliers, who's class features require that they have a rigid code of conduct with edicts and everything have no alignment restriction?

Barbarians, who have to be non-lawful but are always put in civilizations that are full of ancient laws, traditions and taboos?

Wizards, who have to have enough discipline to study for hours on end but don't need an alignment restriction like the Monk does?

Druids, who can be any alignment they want but never at the same time because nature is neutral?

Rangers, who apparently have the same power source as the druid but don't need to be neutral for their spells? (or restricted to non-metal armor)

The whole thing just seems so inconsistent that I ban alignment restrictions for class entry (exception Paladin/Antipaladin), not because I dislike alignment but because it's implications in class features makes no sense.


Don't forget the no-alignment-restriction Samurai!


And hey...Lawful rogues.


aboniks wrote:
And hey...Lawful rogues.

THIS! Its right there in the name! How do rogues NOT have an alignment restriction?


Malwing wrote:
aboniks wrote:
And hey...Lawful rogues.
THIS! Its right there in the name! How do rogues NOT have an alignment restriction?

Or ninjas?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Zhayne wrote:
Fine. They can't make a non-magical gun that doesn't risk exploding.

And yet the cheapest bowstring never snaps.

Sovereign Court

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Zhayne wrote:

Druid armor limitations.

It's METAL.
It comes out of the ground. It's on the periodic table of elements.
It's completely natural.

Hear, hear. Either insist on non-metal weapons as well (insisting that blacksmithing is unnatural), or just get over it.

Here, have a macuahuitl.


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Zhayne wrote:

Druid armor limitations.

It's METAL.
It comes out of the ground. It's on the periodic table of elements.
It's completely natural.

That one does make sense. Old celtic tradition: iron blocks magic, thats why horseshoes are good luck and cold iron hurts fey.

Scarab Sages

Ross Byers wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Fine. They can't make a non-magical gun that doesn't risk exploding.
And yet the cheapest bowstring never snaps.

Word. We houserule firearms to toss out misfires, and we replace their ability to target Touch AC with a Penetration Rating. One-handed early firearms have PR 2, two-handed early firearms have PR 4, and enhancement bonuses automatically scale PR, so a Gunslinger with a +5 musket ignores the first 9 points of AC from armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses. It's simple, and it works extremely well to keep the Gunslinger balanced to the rest of the classes.

Misfires are a terrible balance point, because they don't affect all players equally. Skilled players know all the tricks to make misfires a non-issue, and players with less skill mastery end up with their gun blowing up in their faces every combat, making them wonder why on earth people think the class is so good. The PR system benefits all players equally and removes the need for a clunky misfire mechanic.


Ross Byers wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Fine. They can't make a non-magical gun that doesn't risk exploding.
And yet the cheapest bowstring never snaps.

BOooooooWSS!!!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhayne wrote:

Druid armor limitations.

It's METAL.
It comes out of the ground. It's on the periodic table of elements.
It's completely natural.

That one does make sense. Old celtic tradition: iron blocks magic, thats why horseshoes are good luck and cold iron hurts fey.

That tradition doesn't make sense. Other casting classes can wear metal armor just fine, and druids can wield cold iron weapons without penalty.

I could see, perhaps, saying they can't wear armor made of cold iron (though I would still think it was silly since everybody else can). But what about stuff like mithral?


Kalshane wrote:
As for stat increases being common in 1E/2E, I was apparently playing in very different games. I can probably count on one hand the number of times someone was able to raise a stat (outside wearing something like a girdle of giant strength) in all my years of playing.

Pretty much this. I think I found a pair of gauntlets of ogre power once but other than that nothing in Basic, 1e or 2e. You got what you rolled and you were happy with it.

Grand Lodge

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Fire isn't an element. It's a chemical reaction.


If there's something that kinda bugs related to druids is the blatant lack of non-metallic medium and heavy armors.

What...? Pelt layering wasn't a common practice to get a thicker armor?

Horn and Stone Lamellars are the only non-metallic armors that are 1) better than Hide armors and 2) available for druidic uses.

On another class-specific shenanigans, the monk doesn't get automatic proficiency with weapons with the Monk property.

Finally, elves, gnomes, halflings and orcs treat any weapon with their respective racial name as martial weapons... except that so far, it only includes the Elven Curved Blade, the Gnome Hooked Hammer, the Halfling Sling Staff and the Orc Double Axe, respectively.

Dwarves have the waraxe, urgrosh, boulder helmet, double waraxe, longhammer and longaxe.

Where are the Elven-craft longsword, rapier and bow, the Gnome-craft pick, daggers and alchemical item projectile weapon, the Halfling-craft sword, staff and crossbow and the Orc-craft two-handed sword, two-handed axe and two-handed spear?


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Fire isn't an element. It's a chemical reaction.

Neither is earth, water and air. They are combinations of different elements from the periodic table. In most fantasy-based games, including PF, Archimedes' take on physics is more reliable than modern society's knowledge of physics.

Shadow Lodge

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Lemmy wrote:
Neither is earth, water and air.

That is the joke, yes.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I want a sorcerer with the Elemental (xenon) bloodline.

Or maybe a mercury elementalist wizard.


I thought so... But still... Gotta make sure, since you didn't post it with your TOZ persona. ^^

And waht about Storm Elementals? Are they weatherals?


Lemmy wrote:

I thought so... But still... Gotta make sure, since you didn't post it with your TOZ persona. ^^

That was a convoluted plan of his part to confuse you and give you reason to anwer him so he could post the image with perefect timing. You just were a pawn in his game.

Scarab Sages

JiCi wrote:

On another class-specific shenanigans, the monk doesn't get automatic proficiency with weapons with the Monk property.

I always found it ridiculous that the Monk wasn't proficient with the Monk's Spade.


Just As Planned.


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Mythic TOZ is the quintessential fifth element.


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JiCi wrote:
On another class-specific shenanigans, the monk doesn't get automatic proficiency with weapons with the Monk property.

I asked this once and someone from Paizo (I don't remember who) said it was because granting Monks proficiency with all Monk weapons is a powerful option, sounds like power creep, and steps on the toes of other martials, like fighters.

My reaction: -_-


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Tels wrote:
JiCi wrote:
On another class-specific shenanigans, the monk doesn't get automatic proficiency with weapons with the Monk property.

I asked this once and someone from Paizo (I don't remember who) said it was because granting Monks proficiency with all Monk weapons is a powerful option, sounds like power creep, and steps on the toes of other martials, like fighters.

My reaction: -_-

It is somewhat funny how any of the3 problematic classes stop any improvement in the others 2.

Fighters can not have more skill points because rogue.

Rogues and monk can not have more in combat usefulness because fighters.

meanwhile a ranger, paladin and barbarian fan have been slipping then powercreep in every book since core.


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Tels wrote:
JiCi wrote:
On another class-specific shenanigans, the monk doesn't get automatic proficiency with weapons with the Monk property.

I asked this once and someone from Paizo (I don't remember who) said it was because granting Monks proficiency with all Monk weapons is a powerful option, sounds like power creep, and steps on the toes of other martials, like fighters.

My reaction: -_-

I don't think it qualifies as power creep if you still suck afterwards.


Zhayne wrote:


That tradition doesn't make sense.

Thats why its called tradition. Unless you want to explain to me why a rabbit is delivering brightly colored eggs?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhayne wrote:


That tradition doesn't make sense.

Thats why its called tradition. Unless you want to explain to me why a rabbit is delivering brightly colored eggs?

So, if tradition doesn't make sense, why did you say the Celtic Tradition made sense?

Make up your mind, dude. :)


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Zhayne wrote:


So, if tradition doesn't make sense, why did you say the Celtic Tradition made sense?

Make up your mind, dude. :)

I said the RULE Made sense because of tradition. I like mythological quirks and flaws in a role playing system.

Grand Lodge

Zhayne wrote:

So, if tradition doesn't make sense, why did you say the Celtic Tradition made sense?

Make up your mind, dude. :)

It makes sense if you believe following traditions because they are traditions makes sense. And since most game rules are based off of modeling traditional archetypes...


Yeah, tradition isn't anything I care about. :)

Grand Lodge

Chaos for the win!


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhayne wrote:


That tradition doesn't make sense.

Thats why its called tradition. Unless you want to explain to me why a rabbit is delivering brightly colored eggs?

I want to. I had to sign the NDA though.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Zhayne wrote:


That tradition doesn't make sense.

Thats why its called tradition. Unless you want to explain to me why a rabbit is delivering brightly colored eggs?

That one's easy. Easter is based off of pagan fertility festivals, and what better represents fertility than rabbits and eggs? Where the chocolate and candy comes from, I can only imagine it is because businesses wanted to consumerize the holiday.

Of course, I am sure you were being rather sarcastic in your question.

I am no fan of the druid armor restrictions, but I keep it in. I provide a larger list of available armors (which include non-metal medium and heavy armors), as well as some special materials that can be used to create non-metal full plate. Thought about adding in those restrictions to the barbarian and ranger as well. A barbarian clad in mithral full plate just doesn't mesh well with me.


Zhayne wrote:
Tels wrote:
JiCi wrote:
On another class-specific shenanigans, the monk doesn't get automatic proficiency with weapons with the Monk property.

I asked this once and someone from Paizo (I don't remember who) said it was because granting Monks proficiency with all Monk weapons is a powerful option, sounds like power creep, and steps on the toes of other martials, like fighters.

My reaction: -_-

I don't think it qualifies as power creep if you still suck afterwards.

That's my thought actually...

More weapons for the monk isn't going to break it if it's going to rely more on unarmed combat.


Zhayne wrote:

Druid armor limitations.

It's METAL.
It comes out of the ground. It's on the periodic table of elements.
It's completely natural.

I could sorta understand a ban on druids with plastic armor...

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Chaos for the win!

What gave you the idea that tradition was Lawful?!? The definition of the Lawful Alignment in the CRB?

Nah, despite the core definition of the lawful alignment including tradition, three of the 3.5 core classes are tradition oriented with chaotic or neutral alignment preferences.
Now, Pathfinder reduced it to two. Still, there remains one core tradition-oriented class which is barred from being Lawful, and one tradition-oriented class in core which is required to be close to neutral.
Obviously, the developers thing tradition is a trait of Chaos or Neutrality:)


137ben wrote:
Zhayne wrote:

Druid armor limitations.

It's METAL.
It comes out of the ground. It's on the periodic table of elements.
It's completely natural.

I could sorta understand a ban on druids with plastic armor...

But...plastic is made from crude oil, which is made from vegetation Brontosauruses.

Now if the druid had a ban on non-biodegradable armor, for sure, no plastics. ;)

Grand Lodge

Zhayne wrote:
Gun misfire rules. I refuse to believe that, in a world where with so many special materials, so many ways to improve crafting, so much magic, and the possibility of literal divine inspiration, they can't make a gun that doesn't risk exploding.

It took centuries for guns to progress far enough to make gun explosions a rare occurance. The equivalent of Sam Colt hasn't been born yet.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Fire isn't an element. It's a chemical reaction.

Until relatively recently in our history, the Aristotelian 4-element model was a strong force in Western thought, especially in the historical periods overlapped by the game. The Orient by contrast worked on a 7-element model.


LazarX wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Gun misfire rules. I refuse to believe that, in a world where with so many special materials, so many ways to improve crafting, so much magic, and the possibility of literal divine inspiration, they can't make a gun that doesn't risk exploding.
It took centuries for guns to progress far enough to make gun explosions a rare occurance. The equivalent of Sam Colt hasn't been born yet.

To be fair, the main causes of gun explosions were (and still are) low-quality gunpowder and improper maintenance/cleaning.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Ross Byers wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Weapons provide no defensive benefit: its just as easy to hit an unarmed man as one that can parry.
That's not quite true: when an unarmed man tries to hit an armed one, the armed one gets an AoO.

Ross, I think you missed the point. The unarmed man should be easier to hit - even if they are just defending. Your rebuttal only works if the unarmed defender stops defending and starts attacking.


The Shining Fool wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Weapons provide no defensive benefit: its just as easy to hit an unarmed man as one that can parry.
That's not quite true: when an unarmed man tries to hit an armed one, the armed one gets an AoO.
Ross, I think you missed the point. The unarmed man should be easier to hit - even if they are just defending. Your rebuttal only works if the unarmed defender stops defending and starts attacking.

Do we have a parrying dagger/main gauche in this system? I always wanted a weapon like that give you a shield bonus or something...

I suppose the cheap way would be slap 'defending' on it... but it's not quite the same thing.

I tried to make weapons give AC bonuses in 2E... but the house rule didn't go anywhere.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
phantom1592 wrote:
The Shining Fool wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Weapons provide no defensive benefit: its just as easy to hit an unarmed man as one that can parry.
That's not quite true: when an unarmed man tries to hit an armed one, the armed one gets an AoO.
Ross, I think you missed the point. The unarmed man should be easier to hit - even if they are just defending. Your rebuttal only works if the unarmed defender stops defending and starts attacking.

Do we have a parrying dagger/main gauche in this system? I always wanted a weapon like that give you a shield bonus or something...

I suppose the cheap way would be slap 'defending' on it... but it's not quite the same thing.

I tried to make weapons give AC bonuses in 2E... but the house rule didn't go anywhere.

Two-weapon Defense.

Silver Crusade

Jaelithe wrote:

Are there specific ones or even entire sections that you simply dispense with because you find them ponderous, convoluted, detrimental to flow, nonsensical, irritating or just effin' stupid? Do you rewrite, hand-wave, rule ad hoc, or ignore?

Please don't attack others' comments. Simply list those YOU dislike and why.

There's a nonsensical and absurd rule in PFS. Evil characters are supposedly not allowed, but a lot of players have evil characters, and most DM's ignore or even promote evil acts at the table.

The second absurd rule is that PvP is not allowed, so there is not much a character can do to stop a party member's homicidal or cruel behaviour

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

The Shining Fool wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Weapons provide no defensive benefit: its just as easy to hit an unarmed man as one that can parry.
That's not quite true: when an unarmed man tries to hit an armed one, the armed one gets an AoO.
Ross, I think you missed the point. The unarmed man should be easier to hit - even if they are just defending. Your rebuttal only works if the unarmed defender stops defending and starts attacking.

I didn't say it was a perfect model. I was just saying the game makes some attempt to model that situation.


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n o 417 wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:

Are there specific ones or even entire sections that you simply dispense with because you find them ponderous, convoluted, detrimental to flow, nonsensical, irritating or just effin' stupid? Do you rewrite, hand-wave, rule ad hoc, or ignore?

Please don't attack others' comments. Simply list those YOU dislike and why.

There's a nonsensical and absurd rule in PFS. Evil characters are supposedly not allowed, but a lot of players have evil characters, and most DM's ignore or even promote evil acts at the table.

The second absurd rule is that PvP is not allowed, so there is not much a character can do to stop a party member's homicidal or cruel behaviour

Which gets us to the rule where the group says 'stop being a schmuck or GTFO'.


aboniks wrote:
And hey...Lawful rogues.

What about a governmental spy?


n o 417 wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:

Are there specific ones or even entire sections that you simply dispense with because you find them ponderous, convoluted, detrimental to flow, nonsensical, irritating or just effin' stupid? Do you rewrite, hand-wave, rule ad hoc, or ignore?

Please don't attack others' comments. Simply list those YOU dislike and why.

There's a nonsensical and absurd rule in PFS. Evil characters are supposedly not allowed, but a lot of players have evil characters, and most DM's ignore or even promote evil acts at the table.

The second absurd rule is that PvP is not allowed, so there is not much a character can do to stop a party member's homicidal or cruel behaviour

I recall one Society Scenario that seems to promote PvP in some ways.

Faction Missions:
All of the other factions were supposed to help escort a group of goblins through Irrisen, while the Cheliax faction (I believe) is supposed to attempt to ensure the goblins die. I don't remember the exact wording, as I was asked to come help distinguish the two for another GM, but we both agree'd that, as written, the Cheliax factions mission was directly at odds with that of the other factions.

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