Our 12th level party is composed of a rogue, cleric, bard, sorcerer and fighter (classic composition as you can see).
In recent fights, some players have expressed having less fun then they used to have. The reasons being that they feel that the fighter is taking all the attention and they can't contributed as much.
Now, our fighter ( a two-handed archertype) is a pure classic fighting machine who has maximized his Con and STR (both around 24) and with the usual feats such as power attack, furious focus, etc)
As a result, he has 3 atttacks (4 with haste) with a current bonus of +24/+19/+14 (+24 with haste) and damages around 2d4 (falchion) + 38 (or something like that). Double that with a crit. So usually do between 100-200 hp damage per round. Since he’s fighting two-handed, he has no shield and therefore his AC is around 26 (a little too low I think)
Of course, he's the center of attraction of opposing monsters and get damages quite a lot...As a result, many PCs (the cleric amongs other, but also the bard sometimes ) just spend rounds healing the fighter to keep him afoot and fighting, otherwise the party could be killed. When meeting big solo monsters with high ACs, again only the fighter has any chances of hitting him. The rougue would then do help another to add +2 to the fighter.
So many players think that the fighter is too strong (I disagree with that)
I’d like to know if any of you guys has had a similar experience and what kind of suggestion you do have to prevent this....
thanks
Spread the HD around and have them face many, smaller HD foes instead of one big-bad. The result is that the fighter will get bogged down fighting multiple enemies that the rest of the party can actually hit.
Fighters are good at fighting, they are not good at much else. Lets just hope your DM dose not dominate him, Bad will save mixed with good damage can be a party killer.
Talk to gm about adding encounters that take the focus off the fighter. Incorpreal undead springs to mind,unless that falchion is a ghost touch model. Swarms are fun too and immune to standard weapons. The addition of traps might work and if the fighter is in the front he may not want to continue being in front by the time he eats a few lightning traps.
It's surprising that the rest of the party has a hard time hitting things when there's a bard in the party. Inspire courage works wonders, as does good hope.
Have multiple weaker creatures show up instead of 1 single big one. With that kind of encounter design, of course it looks like the guy who can only deal damage is OP.
Also, how important are social encounters with this group? I also recommend playing them up for the rest of the party.
Seriously though, don't do solo monsters, bad form.
EDIT: ninjas... But +1 to using swarms (albeit sparingly). He isn't even a speed bump to them on his own.
Throw spells at the fighter. Not damage spells, but freezing spells. Or have enemies that can fly (through a spell or otherwise). Nerfing a fighter is really easy without house rules.
Are you the DM, or a player?
to answer a few question. I'm the bard, so yes the party is buffed by +5 to hit , damage, etc. (good hope and IC)...
We are playing 2-3 adventure paths at the same times (mega game) ...So technically, the fights and monsters met are set-up by the scenarios. GM is good at combining monsters into one big fight instead of meeeting all monsters solo...HE told me recently he started to increase some of the CR to be able to adjust...but still not obvious. (think adding a few more mosnter is the best way to go as some of you suggested)
The things is we are good at battlefield control.
An exemple, we faced a big giant (wizard) recently who had 4 outsiders with him...He hit us with anty-gravity, but after a round of feather fall and taking fly potions and air walk, al characters were good to go...the sorcerer put a wall of force between the wizard and the outsiders (no dimension doors or teleportation workrd in that place) and we quickly dispatched the ousiders (actually, the fighters dispatched them very quickly. then we faced the stone giant who had increased his AC to about 40 ish...this is when all but the fighter (even with the bard)had a hard time affecting the wizard..
The fighter has a relatively good will save (cloak of resistance +4)and with the help of the bard (saving finale) often manages to save from domination...but that was a weakness that i thought the gm would exploit more, but it's not all monsters who have that kind of spells...
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You are level 12. Have the Cleric stop bothering with Healing and instead drop save or sucks. Really at this level both the Cleric and Sorcerer can be effectively ending most fights on round 1 leaving nothing for the fighter but to mop up. The Bard and Rogue are largely out of luck.
BTW: adding mosnters and some incorporeal monsters seems good. swarm is also a good thing. However, that can work here and there...you can't have all fights with such creatures..
Personnaly, I,m wondering if the problem don'T comes down to the fighter having an ac too low....If he managed to increase it above 30 and maybe have a stonekin cast on him....maybe then he would get less damge per round and thus require less healing, and then the GM could add more monster to give all the chance to shine!!!
What do you think?
Fighters have bad will. Maybe make him sleep so he knows he's not all powerful?
Detect Magic wrote: Spread the HD around and have them face many, smaller HD foes instead of one big-bad. The result is that the fighter will get bogged down fighting multiple enemies that the rest of the party can actually hit. THis sis a good suggestion. THe fighter will kill one enemy per round but that doe snot matter that much because individually the enemies are not tat important as with a BBEG. And in these situations area save or suck and battlefield control spell are actually pretty important.
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I noticed you are talking about AC40... That is normal AC, the giants touch AC is likely laughable. Spell casters have powerful touch spells at this level.
As for the rest of it, you have the spell casters providing things they excel at (control, overcoming the the impossible, ect), the bard is contributing all of the fighters damage that would normally miss without the buffs. The fighter for your group is nothing more than the war head to a guided missile. Your missile would be useless without a guidance system, propulsion, and counter measures to protect it.
From the description, it actually sounds like you guys are doing things about right. The fighter's your main damage dealer, the bard's buffing the group, the sorcerer uses his magic to control the battlefield, and the cleric is keeping folks alive.
But if you guys are feeling overshadowed, that's a problem. I have a few questions to follow up:
1) Do you guys feel overshadowed in combat encounters? Or do you feel overshadowed overall?
2) What is the mix of combat encounters vs. pure social/skill encounters?
3) Do you have mixed encounters, that is encounters that include both a social/skill element and a combat element? (For example, having the fighter hold off a never-ending swarm of undead while the rogue and bard have to disarm a trap.)
4) Do you ever try to add a social/skill element to a seemingly pure combat encounter?
I forgot add, the AC at the levels you are talking doesn't matter. The brutes and even mooks are probably at least +20 to hit, the bosses more like +25-30 range. You would have to sink some serious resources to make a difference. Save your resources and invest in miss chance and DR.
As for the fighter dropping stuff in one round... A good fighter can do this to anything short of a boss. If they can't (barring rolling lots of 1s) they are not a good fighter and aren't fulfilling their class role. You NEED that dpr to be able to keep fights manageable when things like CR9 outsiders are spammed in summons at 1d4+1 ect... You need to have min dpr to be able drop the hard to kill mooks quick before they overwhelm the party.
lovecheese45 wrote: Fighters have bad will. Maybe make him sleep so he knows he's not all powerful? Well the fighter has +13 will save which is not bad , and with the support of the bard (saving finale, etc) he relatively saves enough
andreww wrote: You are level 12. Have the Cleric stop bothering with Healing and instead drop save or sucks. Really at this level both the Cleric and Sorcerer can be effectively ending most fights on round 1 leaving nothing for the fighter but to mop up. The Bard and Rogue are largely out of luck. Well, the cleric is more a buffer/utility/combat than a SoS spellcaster (apart from banishment and afew specific other) ...The sorcerer and Bard are generally the ones with control with typical spells such as wall of force, black tentacles, create pits, feeblemind, cacophonous call, terrible remorse, confusion, dominate person, etc...
So as strangely as it may sounds, it doesn'T go as well as one might anticipate...when you have 2 glabrezu and 1 wizard and 5 constructs, losing the fighter is quite critical!!!
pennywit wrote: From the description, it actually sounds like you guys are doing things about right. The fighter's your main damage dealer, the bard's buffing the group, the sorcerer uses his magic to control the battlefield, and the cleric is keeping folks alive.
But if you guys are feeling overshadowed, that's a problem. I have a few questions to follow up:
1) Do you guys feel overshadowed in combat encounters? Or do you feel overshadowed overall?
2) What is the mix of combat encounters vs. pure social/skill encounters?
3) Do you have mixed encounters, that is encounters that include both a social/skill element and a combat element? (For example, having the fighter hold off a never-ending swarm of undead while the rogue and bard have to disarm a trap.)
4) Do you ever try to add a social/skill element to a seemingly pure combat encounter?
1)ya mainly in combat encounters, Role playing is fine and the foghter is not that strong anyway in roleplayin so the other players gets more involved, so it's mainly the combat situation which is an issue
2) about 50-50...we are playing adventure paths, so quite well distributed (apart from a few dungeon crawls here and there)
3) NOt often, but did happen. Depends on the adventure path...
4)very rarely...sometimes, we do have the chance to get into a diplomacy/bluff etc discussion, but it goes with the storyline of the AP...(well i guess since i'm not the GM)
BTW: appreciate ALL the feedback.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
You should all make equally min/maxed fighters. That way you can all get mercilessly slaughtered by the enchanter you encounter next game.
Problem solved.
Things that target will saves. Hold Person, Dominate, and so on. Rust monsters. A cabal of several mid level wizards/sorcerers who focus fire magic missiles.
The fighter is good at fighting. Don't take that away from him. Seriously, he doesn't get anything else, and he's not even the best at fighting. Though with the two-handed archetype he is a very strong combatant. Outside of that, he has no skills, no magic, and no ability to really do anything else.
I agree that more weaker monster are in order as well as asking your players to examine their play style. If your casters are attempting to hit creatures rather than cast spells that would be the reason they are failing to contribute by comparison. The bard should be magically enhancing the party, the sorcerer should be laying down tide altering magic such as Black tentacles, and the Cleric should be throwing support spells and the occasional SoS spell. The only one out in the cold might be the rogue, but that is a whole different discussion.
Claxon wrote: The fighter is good at fighting. Don't take that away from him. Seriously, he doesn't get anything else, and he's not even the best at fighting. Though with the two-handed archetype he is a very strong combatant. Outside of that, he has no skills, no magic, and no ability to really do anything else.
I agree that more weaker monster are in order as well as asking your players to examine their play style. If your casters are attempting to hit creatures rather than cast spells that would be the reason they are failing to contribute by comparison. The bard should be magically enhancing the party, the sorcerer should be laying down tide altering magic such as Black tentacles, and the Cleric should be throwing support spells and the occasional SoS spell. The only one out in the cold might be the rogue, but that is a whole different discussion.
I love barbarians. but the two-handed fighter is THE strongest class in terms of DPR with the LEAST amount of feat investment. Its one of the best fighting classes out there.
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You have a cleric and a sorcerer in your party and the fighter gets all the attention? How's that? What exactly are the sorcerer and cleric doing? At 12th level full casters can already bend the universe to do their bidding.
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casters are overrated on these forums imo. Strong? yes, defiantly. but as strong as people make them seem?.. iii don't think so.
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rorek55 wrote: casters are overrated on these forums imo. Strong? yes, defiantly. but as strong as people make them seem?.. iii don't think so. Maybe. But should a level 12 fighter be able to hog the spotlight in a party with two full casters? Not if they are anything but deliberately anti-optimised.
Umbranus wrote: rorek55 wrote: casters are overrated on these forums imo. Strong? yes, defiantly. but as strong as people make them seem?.. iii don't think so. Maybe. But should a level 12 fighter be able to hog the spotlight in a party with two full casters? Not if they are anything but deliberately anti-optimised. fair enough.
I second the notion of miss chance buffs, instead of AC buffs of healing. Blink, blur, displacement, mirror image, etc. are all great options.
As for getting damage out there, have the sorcerer look into some decent touch spells. Scorching ray is just fine at this level (3 rays for 4d6 each), as is burning arc (reflex save, multiple targets). I'm sure that the rogue would appreciate some greater invisibility.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Equip your NPC/monster encounters. Their treasure doesn't just magically appear out of their butts when slain. They've always had it! Let them make use of it against the PCs!
That might help narrow the gap some.
From what you've said, the fighter is getting all the attention in combat encounters because that's what he's built for and the rest of you have built your characters to support him. It's not uncommon for the highest DPSer to be the point man in combat.
As far as some more general things:
If you guys are deploying your battlefield control spells and using them well ... then why do you feel the fighter is overshadowing you?
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Cuttler wrote: Well the fighter has +13 will save which is not bad , and with the support of the bard (saving finale, etc) he relatively saves enough What is his Reflex save like? Resilient Sphere him.
Quote: andreww wrote: You are level 12. Have the Cleric stop bothering with Healing and instead drop save or sucks. Really at this level both the Cleric and Sorcerer can be effectively ending most fights on round 1 leaving nothing for the fighter but to mop up. The Bard and Rogue are largely out of luck. Well, the cleric is more a buffer/utility/combat than a SoS spellcaster (apart from banishment and afew specific other)
That might be the problem right there. Support doesn't draw a lot of attention. Clerics have so many potential roles just due to spells, the cleric could be casting Harm by now. Want more attention? Cast Harm.
Quote: ...The sorcerer and Bard are generally the ones with control with typical spells such as wall of force, black tentacles, create pits, feeblemind, cacophonous call, terrible remorse, confusion, dominate person, etc... They might be overlapping each other just a bit there. The sorcerer should take some direct damage as well as control spells. You can put a bad guy into a pit, then drop a Fireball into said pit.
Umbranus wrote: You have a cleric and a sorcerer in your party and the fighter gets all the attention? How's that? What exactly are the sorcerer and cleric doing? At 12th level full casters can already bend the universe to do their bidding. For exemple, imagine you are faced with 5 jackal-like constructs and 2 glabrezu (second one appear later with a wizard), and after the first round, the fighter is around 30 hp...what would you do as a cleric? if you don't heal the fighter, it's probably tpk!!! During the early rounds, the cleric has managed to cast a banishment, but the Glabrezu saved! so much for SoS spell!!!..Lucky for us, the glabrezu didn't arrived at the same time with all their power word stun!! The first round the sorcerer got stun and the bard had to remove it!!
At Claxon: what you're suggesting is exatly what the party does usually, it's just that sometimes things evolved differently as the example above. But normally, just like any party, we buff ourselves (if we have time)and then tactially try to control the battlefield. Agree with you that the fighter is there to do huge amount of damage, and he doesn'T do much anything else, that,s why i think he's ok....
Well, fighters pretty much only get to shine during combat; outside of combat, there's probably not a lot the fighter can do mechanically, short of intimidation, a couple of niche knowledge checks, and maybe some tracking ability (in parties lacking somebody who can do it better, anyway). I'd echo another poster's advice: don't take this away from the fighter. Instead, give the other characters something to shine at.
If you're a sorcerer and you want to shine in combat like a fighter shines in combat, nobody's stopping you from blasting. Optimal? No. But neither is the fighter. That said, wanting to play a caster for the social and utility benefits, including battlefield control, and then being disappointed that the fighter fights the best, is a bit like eating all your cake and then being disappointed that you don't have it anymore.
rorek55 wrote: Claxon wrote: The fighter is good at fighting. Don't take that away from him. Seriously, he doesn't get anything else, and he's not even the best at fighting. Though with the two-handed archetype he is a very strong combatant. Outside of that, he has no skills, no magic, and no ability to really do anything else.
I agree that more weaker monster are in order as well as asking your players to examine their play style. If your casters are attempting to hit creatures rather than cast spells that would be the reason they are failing to contribute by comparison. The bard should be magically enhancing the party, the sorcerer should be laying down tide altering magic such as Black tentacles, and the Cleric should be throwing support spells and the occasional SoS spell. The only one out in the cold might be the rogue, but that is a whole different discussion.
I love barbarians. but the two-handed fighter is THE strongest class in terms of DPR with the LEAST amount of feat investment. Its one of the best fighting classes out there. It is one of the best, but it's DPR will still fall short of the pouncing barbarian with Come and Get Me. He will do more damage per attack, but the loss of damage when taking a move action means the barbarian will generally have a higher average damage over the course of a combat. This is sort of a derail to the main topic, and I probably shouldn't have gotten into the argument and wont go into it further.
Point being, the player choose the best archetype he could to rock faces as a fighter, and thats fine. He doesn't get to do anything else outside of combat so don't punish him. What really needs to happen is your other players need to examine what they're doing in combat and figure out why they're not contributing as much. If your sorcerer isn't blasting/controlling, if your cleric is buffing/debuffing, if your bard is singing then...what they hell are they doing? If they're trying to martial it up and they're surprised they're falling short compared to the optimized combat exclusive character then they've been barking up the wrong class.
Good points aegrisomnia... but the issue is really into combat, not outside of combat, where other players have a chance to shine. But your anology with the cake is good!!! :-)
I guess the cleric is the main issue here as he's often stuck in healing the other to keeps them alive, specially the fighter who gets hit hard...
Now, i understand this might be is job, but i don'T think many of you like to spend a whole fight healing people around...
the rogue is another issue as some of you indicated, but still, when faced with high ac or construct (non senakable targets) its getting harder for him...not too bad if it happens once in a while, but depressing if too often...i can understand him. Since we are getting in the latter parts of the AP, things will get harder for him...
From your description of the combat, the situation sounds more or less fine - the casters are keeping things manageable while the fighter kills. I suppose the fighter's getting the glory and the big damage numbers, but he'd be hurting without the rest of the party.
A well-deployed martial is one of the best weapons a caster can have.
I'd be more concerned for your party's rogue - he's getting hosed if the GM is jacking up ACs just to make the fighter's life harder.
I assume the rogue's the classic dual-wield, weapon finesse, melee type.
If the rogue has quickdraw, give him an improved invisibility (or tiny hut, a.k.a the sniper blind) and encourage him to take a crack at ranged combat. He might start getting some good results. Especially if he gets a pair of sniper goggles. I recommend those heartily.
Edit: As to sneak attack, be sure to check the rules on creature types. The list of things you CAN'T sneak attack in Pathfinder is pretty small - oozes, elementals, and incorporeal critters (if you don't have a ghost touch weapon). Otherwise, a creature being immune to sneak is on a case-by-case basis - they need the amorphous quality or to be explicitly immune.
Also, try tossing a displacement or stoneskin on the fighter - something like that should greatly reduce the amount of damage he's taking, freeing the cleric up to do other things.
Ravingdork wrote: Equip your NPC/monster encounters. Their treasure doesn't just magically appear out of their butts when slain. They've always had it! Let them make use of it against the PCs!
That might help narrow the gap some.
One of the few things I have ever agreed with RD about, but an absolutely correct assessment. GMs often seem to overlook this, but any intelligent being should be making use of all of it's assets, especially it's magical treasure.
This is something the fighter does well, so why not let him shine?
I have definite opinions about the melee/caster disparity, but let's not go there.
If I were in your group I'd think nothing of giving up some loot personally to get him the best defensive gear your group can afford.
I understand why the players in your group might feel a little piqued.
But this isn't my first rodeo, so I'd go with the way this one is going.
To me the big issue would be the damage that he is soaking up. That is why I said I'd try to get the group to make his defenses a group priority.
Also if I were the sorcerer I'd definitely take Greater Displacement or Improved Invisibility (heck why not both?) and putting one or the other on him every fight. You know the drill, haste then defense.
As a cleric I'd put up Shield Other regularly as well.
There are a lot of ways to play thing. Obviously your group could use other tactics if they wished. Assuming your group are all friends, why not let the fighter hulk out in this campaign?
Ravingdork wrote: Equip your NPC/monster encounters. Their treasure doesn't just magically appear out of their butts when slain. They've always had it! Let them make use of it against the PCs!
That might help narrow the gap some.
...equip them with Potions. If they can they dose up, fight and even when dead don't produce more lootz.
Good points Sunbeam,...goes along what I thought should fix the issue (personnaly, I'm the bard and don't have any issue, i like my role and have fun with it, but it's for the others that i feel)
Thought about stoneskin and increasing AC first, but shield other might be a good thing...will suggest it
blur, invisibility, etc are good things, but at the level that we are, we seem to meet more monsters with either see invisibility or true seeing (not all luckily)...even my own mirror images seems less useful by now...but i guess this is normal progression just like monster having SR and DR etc...just making a good fight for increasingly more powerful PC
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You said the Cleric is more of a buffer/melee cleric than a caster cleric...what are his stats? Because it sounds like that may be part of the problem as well.
As others have pointed out, the Fighter is doing what he is made to do... and save for the unfortunate Rogue, so is everyone else. You point out buffing and healing and battlefield control all being strong points for your group and that is both a boon and a bane.
Read the majority of the magic related "guides" around here and they all tout the idea of control and support/enhancement. All good and useful ideas... and all very, very dull. I mean, when people are watching Hachiman the fighter actually doing things, rolling dice, tangible effect every round... the utility casting starts to seem a little lack luster. Sure, that buff spell and the wall of stone might be far more practical... but it is far more fun to roll a bunch of dice for a fireball spell.
Cuttler wrote: For exemple, imagine you are faced with 5 jackal-like constructs and 2 glabrezu (second one appear later with a wizard), and after the first round, the fighter is around 30 hp...what would you do as a cleric? if you don't heal the fighter, it's probably tpk!!! During the early rounds, the cleric has managed to cast a banishment, but the Glabrezu saved! so much for SoS spell!!!..Lucky for us, the glabrezu didn't arrived at the same time with all their power word stun!! The first round the sorcerer got stun and the bard had to remove it!!
If I am the Cleric I probably Holy Smite the Glabrezu's to leave them blinded and unable to target anything for the next round with their SLA's. I may add Persistent Spell or Piercing Spell depending on how I am set up. I rely on the sorcerer to drop the constructs into a pit or something similar. I don't bring the Fighter and replace him with a Wizard who adds an extra layer of control to the enemies. I make him a Foresight Diviner to ensure he always gets to act in the event that the enemy gets a surprise round.
If I decide this is an actually dangerous fight and want to use some limited resources then I drop a Blade Barrier with Dazing added from a Staff of the Master Necromancer/Rod and expect the Sorcerer to follow up with something similar. I still don't bother to bring the Fighter.
To Deadmanwalking and andreww : You are both right.... I suspect the cleric is probably not built as the player would like to play it. He has str: 16, Con 18, Cha: 18 and Wis : 24 (all mostly includes +4 boost items)...so technically, his initial build was more spell oritented than fighting orienting...Just realized that during week-end, and will challenge him on that.
Holy smite is reall good, but with a DC of 21, the Glabrezu probably would have a 50-50 chance of succeeding (DM is quite lucky at succeeding saves...but not always luckily for us)...Piercing is not critical since cleric took the alternate class bonus (+1 to bypass outsider SR /level)
At Fomsie: you got a valid point, and that might be the core issue here. If they like to roll doce, they should have a different build....
It sounds like they just want to roll big damages. If I play a control character, I know that I won the fight when I set up the fight perfectly for the fighter to smash everyone, and nobody on my team to get smashed. That was my job. If I don't enjoy that role, I don't play a control based character.
The other players may just not understand what they're actually contributing, or they may have some peen envy for those big numbers. The solution depends on the actual problem, that is what needs to be found. Talk to them.
How is this Fighter stealing the show from two 12th level full casters?
Something is afoot.
See above. A caster is entirely doing their job by setting up the fighter to be even more glorious, but some people don't appreciate that role. Some people think a powerful caster is the blaster, others think wizard = wish. This is why it is so important to figure out what you actually want to do before you make a character.
Cuttler wrote: Holy smite is reall good, but with a DC of 21, the Glabrezu probably would have a 50-50 chance of succeeding (DM is quite lucky at succeeding saves...but not always luckily for us)...Piercing is not critical since cleric took the alternate class bonus (+1 to bypass outsider SR /level) That is why you use Persistent. Turn that 50/50 into a 75/25.
yop....that 's what i did with my bard...but unfortunately the cleric didn't!!! :-)
I want to be that Fighter, in that campaign. He must feel so great.
Cuttler wrote: The rougue would then do help another to add +2 to the fighter. Tell your rogue to learn how to flank with the fighter. Then watch his eyes as he sneak attacks.
Happiness for the rogue ensues.
Could we get more information on people's builds?
I mean the bard isn't shiny all the time but inspire courage, good hope and haste is simply deadly on anyone and even more so on a fighter. Bard's turn rogues into fighters and fighters into mundane death machines of deathiness.
The rogue... I'm sorry but is probably out of luck. With that said though with some flanking plans and going strength focused instead of dex he could have been doing great things damage wise too (without sacrificing too much out of his out of combat abilities). An idea might be to take kirin style.
The cleric simply has to try new things -- should be fine.
when you talk to the Cleric your first question should be is he/she having fun? if yes then start to discuss options that might be more effective. if not then discuss reasons why and then discuss ways of him being more effective.
at the end of the day if the Fighter (DPS character) is going down quickly it is usually due to the Buffer failing to do his job adequately.
as many of my players know it dose not matter how high your AC is your going to get hit at times so invest in avoidance Greater invisibility, blur, etc.
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