|
Doesn't matter. The Op's player want to play a charming rogue swashbuckler type. Bbn is thus out.
However, my main point is, I've been talking about the same barbarian this whole time. You're mentioning six or seven different rogue builds, just to match up to what a single rogue-like barbarian can do. The same barbarian can be as good as any of the builds you mentioned, doing all the things you mentioned, at the same time.Now, the rogue does have some advantages over the barbarian. It's hard to beat 8 skill points per level, which afford the rogue an amazing versatility. Does that makes up for the rogue's shortcomings? In my humble opinion, no.
Why?
Heck, be an Urban Barbarian. Boost your DEX in Controlled Rage and not only sneak while Raging, be BETTER at it.
true, but does the barbarian have the skills to MAKE USE of that nice sneaking?
true, but does the barbarian have the skills to MAKE USE of that nice sneaking?
He can have them pretty easily... At very least, it's easier to get skills as a Barbarian than it's to compensate for a Rogues weak saves and poor accuracy.
Quick 6th level "Swashbarian" build (Using 25pt buy because the original character had 30pt buy):
Male Human Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 6
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +10
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 56 (6d12+12)
Fort +8, Ref +8 (+2 bonus vs. traps), Will +5; +3 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities while raging but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 silversheen scimitar +12/+7 (1d6+6/18-20) and
. . masterwork cold iron scimitar +12/+7 (1d6+5/18-20)
Ranged paueliel composite longbow +12/+7 (1d8/×3)
Special Attacks rage (16 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem, beast totem, lesser, superstition +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 11, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 21
Feats Additional Traits, Combat Reflexes, Dervish Dance, Weapon Finesse
Traits auspicious tattoo (shoanti), bandit (river kingdoms), fast-talker, suspicious
Skills Acrobatics +14, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +11, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Linguistics +7, Perception +10, Perform (dance) +3, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +15
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ controlled rage, controlled rage: constitution, controlled rage: dexterity, crowd control, tireless rage
Other Gear +1 chain shirt, +1 silversheen scimitar, masterwork cold iron scimitar, paueliel composite longbow, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +1, 710 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bandit (River Kingdoms) (Stealth) +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Beast Totem +2 AC (Su) +2 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Controlled Rage (Ex) May gain lesser bonus split as desired, but without normal drawbacks.
Crowd Control +3 (Ex) If 2+ foes adjacent, +1 to hit & AC. Unslowed by crowds & bonus to intimidate.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=10) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 10+.
Rage (16 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Superstition +3 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Male Human Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 6
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +10
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 17 (+5 armor, +4 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 56 (6d12+12)
Fort +8, Ref +10 (+2 bonus vs. traps), Will +5; +3 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 silversheen scimitar +14/+9 (1d6+8/18-20) and
. . 2 claws +8 (1d6) and
. . masterwork cold iron scimitar +14/+9 (1d6+7/18-20)
Ranged paueliel composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8/×3)
Special Attacks rage (16 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem, beast totem, lesser, superstition +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 11, Dex 25, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 23
Feats Additional Traits, Combat Reflexes, Dervish Dance, Weapon Finesse
Traits auspicious tattoo (shoanti), bandit (river kingdoms), fast-talker, suspicious
Skills Acrobatics +16, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +13, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Linguistics +7, Perception +10, Perform (dance) +3, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +17
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ controlled rage, controlled rage: constitution, controlled rage: dexterity, crowd control, tireless rage
Other Gear +1 chain shirt, +1 silversheen scimitar, masterwork cold iron scimitar, paueliel composite longbow, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +1, 710 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bandit (River Kingdoms) (Stealth) +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Beast Totem +2 AC (Su) +2 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Controlled Rage (Ex) May gain lesser bonus split as desired, but without normal drawbacks.
Crowd Control +3 (Ex) If 2+ foes adjacent, +1 to hit & AC. Unslowed by crowds & bonus to intimidate.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=10) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 10+.
Rage (16 rounds/day) (Ex) +0 Str, +0 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Superstition +3 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
And that's without "multi-archetyping" it with Invulnerable Rager.
true, but does the barbarian have the skills to MAKE USE of that nice sneaking?Doesn't matter. The Op's player want to play a charming rogue swashbuckler type. Bbn is thus out.
However, my main point is, I've been talking about the same barbarian this whole time. You're mentioning six or seven different rogue builds, just to match up to what a single rogue-like barbarian can do. The same barbarian can be as good as any of the builds you mentioned, doing all the things you mentioned, at the same time.Now, the rogue does have some advantages over the barbarian. It's hard to beat 8 skill points per level, which afford the rogue an amazing versatility. Does that makes up for the rogue's shortcomings? In my humble opinion, no.
Why?
Heck, be an Urban Barbarian. Boost your DEX in Controlled Rage and not only sneak while Raging, be BETTER at it.
He can put ranks in Stealth, can't he?
|
|
true, but does the barbarian have the skills to MAKE USE of that nice sneaking?He can have them pretty easily... At very least, it's easier to get skills as a Barbarian than it's to compensate for a Rogues weak saves and poor accuracy.
Quick 6th level "Swashbarian" build (Using 25pt buy because the original character had 30pt buy):
** spoiler omitted **...
yes, but your damage is now par with a rouge, gratz. (actually.. less) though better saves and HP for sure.
Zhayne- Yes, he can, but he has a limited amount of skill points (at base 10 int 4 less). SoH, EA, Bluff, these are not barb class skils. (though traits help) still you have limited useful ness when sneaking other than hulking out that scythe to CdG
So Multiclass with Rogue.
Umm, not only did I read Jame’s post, his post was responding to my question.
It depends- what are we talking about when “we are ‘talking about rogues’? It’s important to compare apple to apples and oranges to oranges. For example- what class is the best archer? point can be made for either ranger or fighter. The Monk base class is a incredibly bad archer. But the Zen archer is fantastic, considered by many to be better than base Fighter or Ranger. Of course then we need to bring in Fighter or Ranger archetypes too then, right? (Still the Zen archer does well, however)
The point has been made that rogue fails as trapfinding can be done as well by two other class archetypes. NOT CLASSES. The archeologist bard and Trapper ranger. But so? That’s comparing apples to oranges.
There are several very good rogue archetypes than in many ways are better than the base class- scout and of course ninja. If we are comparing how base classes are, we compare base classes. If we add in archetypes- then we add in archetypes for both sides of the debate, not just one. But of course the rogue-haters don;t want a level playing field, they don't want a fair comparo- they can only prove their point by saying "This apple isn't orange enough and it's skin is too thin & hard to peel, and there's no sections...".
In this case, of course, the Ninja archetype would not suit what the OP’s player seems to want.
The rogue is a fine class. Yes, often, just like with any other class, a rogue archetype will suit the role better than the base class would. When we're talking blaster Sorcs, certain bloodlines are WAY better than others- that doesn't mean the sorc sux at blasting just because a couple bloodlines do poorly at blasting.
God you are so full of it.
You just assume that if we don't count ninja as rogues, then we can't compare a different class's archetypes to rogues.
WELL THAT IS WHAT WE ARE DOING! Either figure out why we are doing that or accept that that is what we are doing, regardless of how much YOU fail to understand why.
yes, but your damage is now par with a rouge, gratz. (actually.. less) though better saves and HP for sure.
Is it now? What if the character can't flank? What if the opponent is immune to precision damage? What if the target has concealment? The Barbarian doesn't depend on specific situations to deal damage. And if damage is a concern, he can also focus on Str. Notice how Urban Barbarians can still use standard Rage if they want.
And later one... The Barbarian can also get Witch Hunter. That's a damn good extra damage against... Well... Pretty much everything in the game.
The Swashbarian also has higher AC (note how his AC actually goes up when he Rages) and much better accuracy (Full BAB + Dex bonus makes for a whooping +4 to-hit over a Rogue. And this gap only widens with time). Full BAB also has the added advantages of giving the character extra attacks (he can already make 2 attacks. 3, if we count the calw from beast totem) and early access to combat feats (he can have Improved Critical by 9th level and if he can afford to invest in Str, he could use Power Attack without fear of being unable to hit the broadside of a mountain).
I hear all the time "Rogues are underpowered".
Absolute nonesense. It's just most people don't know how to play Rogues effectively. If you cooperate with the party tank, or find a way to get opponents flat-footed a lot, a high level Rogue can dump out truckloads of SA damage.
Doubly so if your DM lets you take the "re-roll all 1s" trick, and you stack it with some Assassin levels or something. Personally I allow Craven and Improved Sneak Attack from 3.5, so that makes Rogues even more powerful...
Come to think of it... I may write a Rogue guide.
The problem with rogue at high levels is they are glass cannons. If the rogue can hit with all their attacks they can do a ton of damage. The problem is if that doesn't drop you subject of the sneak attack the retaliation can very well drop the rogue in 1 round. This due the rogues low AC and lower hit points compared to the tank. At high levels the AC climbs faster than the rogue's to hit bonus. So they tend to miss more often.
To give an example the rogue in our RotRL game was fine till the last part. At the time the rogue down almost every fight. There were couple fights that weren't that bad stuff where the rogues reflex and evasion saved him.
easiest way to reduce rogue death.
1. take offensive defense. just hit once for +SA dice to your ac (say at 10, you get 5 ac, for free, stacks with everything)
2. Go dex based. at 10, you should have at least +6 into your dex. giving you ~24 average. for +7 dex bonus, mix with mith armor.
3. at 10 take crippling strike. -2 str for every time you hit? ( or do SA, can't remember) he hurts much less after 2-3 hits only.
4. wand of shield, keep it active, not to hard.
5. look just slightly less scary than the raging AM OTHER BARBARIAN smashing stuff. (while being harder to hit!)
I'm not talking level 10. At level 10 the Rogue is peaking and at their best. At level 18 though the story is different. I fully expect the rogue to do what you describe. I'll even add the cloak of Greater Displacement is must have.
I've run a lot high level games. Rogue go one of two way. The rogue dies or they avoid combat and back up the caster with UMD only entering combat when opportunity presents or they are fighting mooks. I'm not saying this the bad fun just that for some it's boring for other it's challenge.
I personally find the slayer to be a better option for the play test and realy that class just shows the rogue could be Full BAB/1D10 HD with out a problem.
Many sensible things.Some good points, I'll just have to disagree on the loudness of rage. But let's not clutter this thread with that :)
Fair enough.
Traps? Meh, if he can't disarm them with care, he'll smash them to bits. And probably survive whatever nastiness they throw at him.
That's really only a sure thing in PFS and PF APs. IMO, a very large part of the reason people have the attitude you do is entirely due to PFS and APs. In home games traps get far more dangerous; a lack of Trapfinding and Disable Device can halt and adventure mid dungeon. I'm sure this varies from GM to GM but IMO if your GM is stocking mid-high level dungeons with traps the Barb/Fighter can just walk through, he isn't doing his job. YMMV.
Sneak Attack? Meh, he does more damage without needing to set up some specific condition (well, besides rage).
That is why the Rogue is designated as a support guy. It's designed to provide burst damage and that burst damage can get pretty high for well built Rogues. I don't know why people keep being surprised when the Full BAB combatants, who are Str based and have class features that give them +6 to Str, can dish out higher consistent damage... If they couldn't that would mean there was something wrong with the Barb, not the Rogue. Besides that, with a well built Skulking Slayer I think the average damage output would be pretty close.
Magic? Good luck finding ways to disable that antimagic trap. The barbarian will just smash it. He'll probably cut through the Silence spell that somehow landed on your friendly sorcerer, too.
Again, this was pointed at Bards, not Barb.
Durability? Anything that drops a barbarian, drops a rogue too, probably twice over. The opposite? Not so much.
Rogues actually have a huge compliment of survivability options available to them. It's just that most players don't pay attention to them.
Combat Maneuvers? It's hard to beat a sundering barbarian at his own game, and Strength Surge is really, really good for everything else.
Unless the enemy Rogue disarms you... lol.
But seriously, Sundering is great and all but it costs the party money when you start breaking stuff they need to sell. Disarming doesn't break weapons. Plus a Skulking Slayer has huge bonuses to Dirty Trick which can render enemies blinded in addition to a large number of other nasty effects. Probably more useful than just Sundering everything in sight.
Now, the rogue does have some advantages over the barbarian. It's hard to beat 8 skill points per level, which afford the rogue an amazing versatility. Does that makes up for the rogue's shortcomings? In my humble opinion, no.
The entire Rogue class is built for versatility. You can build a Rogue to be incredibly versitile or to be incredibly focused on a few main tactics. Which will lead me into my next point:
However, my main point is, I've been talking about the same barbarian this whole time. You're mentioning six or seven different rogue builds, just to match up to what a single rogue-like barbarian can do. The same barbarian can be as good as any of the builds you mentioned, doing all the things you mentioned, at the same time.
No I'm not, and no it can't. You're welcome to post this Barb build for comparison if you want. I originally mentioned 5 total archetypes when answering waht a Rogue can do better. None of those are absolutely necessary to make the Rogue competitive and if wanted several of them can be taken in conjunction for one build or another. I did use several different examples, but really everything I want to show/prove can be done on the same character, there are just several methods for a Rogue to achieve the same end. Everything I answered your particular post with can be done with one guy, it's just a question of how you want to go about it.
Actually, Lemmy posted an excellent Swashbarian upthread. Do you care enough to post a Rogue that can compare to that?
I will admit, I never paid much attention to the Urban Barb, it's pretty nice. If I were trying to compete with it I might build something like this.
Class: Rogue (Skulking Slayer and Scout Archetypes)
Favored Class Bonus: 1HP/Level
Traits: Reactionary, Fate's Favored, and Trapfinder (Pride Drawback)
Stats:
STR: 16 (18 After Racial Adjustment)
DEX: 16
CON: 15 [1st Ability Point]
INT: 10
WIS: 13
CHA: 10
Level/Feat/Talent:
1. Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Tetsubo
2. Talent: Combat Trick - Improved Initiative
3. Feat: Sap Adept
4. Talent: Resiliency
5. Feat: Sap Master
6. Talent: Offensive Defense
....................................................................
Male Half-Orc Rogue (Skulking Slayer/Scout) 6
NN Medium humanoid
Init +9; Senses Perception +9 (+11 on checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste.)
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +3 Dex) (+3 Offensive Defense [+6 if used against flat-footed opponent])
hp 52 (6d8+24)
Fort +8, Ref +11, Will +6
Defensive Abilities: Offensive Defense and Resiliency
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Merciful Tetsubo +10 (1d10+8/x4) + [Sneak Attack: (3d6)(3d6+1d6+6 When Merciful)(6d8+1d6+12 When Merciful and Charging)]
Ranged composite Str shortbow (5 Str Score) +8 (1d6+5/×3) + (Sneak Attack 3d6)
Special Attacks Bold Strike and Scout's Charge
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +10; CMD 22
Feats Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Tetsubo, Sap Adept, Sap Master
Traits Reactionary, Fate's Favored, and Trapfinder (Pride Drawback)
Skills Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Disable Device +12, Perception +9/11, Sense Motive +10, Stealth +12
Languages Common and Orc
SQ Rogue Talents: Combat Trick - Improved Initiative, Offensive Defense, Resiliency
Other Gear +1 chain shirt, +1 Merciful Tetsubo, Belt +2 Str, composite shortbow, cloak of resistance +1, 680 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Tetsubo
Improved Initiative +4 Initiative
Sap Adept +2 per Sneak Attack die to Sneak Attack Damage
Resiliency +lvl HP if dropped to 0HP
Sap Master x2 Sneak Attack dice if attacking a flat-footed opponent
Offensive Defense +1 AC per Sneak Attack die
Scout's Charge (Ex): At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Pass for Human (Ex): At 1st level, when trying to conceal her half-orc heritage, a skulking slayer gains a bonus on Disguise checks equal to half her level. When using disguise to appear as a specific individual, skulking stalkers ignore the normal –2 penalty to appear as another race.
Underhanded Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, when she could normally make a sneak attack, a slayer may instead make a dirty trick or steal combat maneuver with a bonus on her roll. This bonus is equal to her number of sneak attack dice for a dirty trick combat maneuver, or 1-1/2 × her number of sneak attack dice for a steal combat maneuver. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Bold Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, when a skulking slayer charges and makes a sneak attack with a two-handed weapon, she rolls d8s instead of d6s for her sneak attack damage. This ability replaces trap sense +1 and +4.
Shifty (Ex): At 6th level, a skulking slayer gains a bonus on Bluff checks to feint equal to half her level. This ability replaces trap sense +2.
However, for the OP I had already posted THIS BUILD, which I think is better than either one of these others.
There's the Path of War Stalker, but that might not meet your player's fluff expectations.
I've always found the most valuable attribute of any "support guy", as you call it, is reliability. Sure, rogues can dish out the hurt... if that sneak attack hits.
Sneak Attack isn't as hard to get as naysayers like to think it is.
Fair enough. I guess the Rogue can UMD a Dispel Magic scroll or something on an emergency. Doing that consistently does make a dent in your WBL, tho.
My comment about Rogues functioning in Antimagic Fields and Silence while a Bard doesn't had nothing to do with UMD. If the Rogue does want some magic they have UMD available but that's not really what I was talking about. I would use UMD, sparingly, in situations where my skills, equipment, and potions won't do the trick. I won't be pouring a ton of WBL into it though.
True enough, but actually taking those options locks them out of other talents they might want to take.
Not really. Reference my build above.
Can the Rogue really disarm the Barbarian that easily? Again, Strength Surge.
Which again, can only be used once per Rage. The Rogue who is focused on Disarming should be able to get your weapon without much trouble on the second try.
And sundering costs the party as much money as the Rogue using UMD for everything. Probably less, considering you don't have to destroy stuff, just leave it broken (-2 hit and damage and 20/x2 crits on a weapon, half the AC on armor/shields) and Mending is a cantrip.
I suppose it's a non-factor then. But as I said, most Rogues shouldn't be pouring a ton of WBL or Party Funds into UMD. So, that is also a non-factor.
True. However, that same focus can be achieved with most other classes, usually with higher efficiency (less resources [feats, gear] spent and/or better results).
Really? Then how come your 5 point argument against my original 8 things the Rogue does best didn't really pan out? After all that back and forth, the Rogue does exactly what I originally claimed, and the only thing you had was that your single Barb build could compete will all these different Rogue builds at the same time, which is demonstrably inaccurate. I have posted a build that is competitive with Lemmy's, but neither of those was what you and I were discussing.
...
Oh and I knew there was a reason I keep thinking Rage and Stealth/CDG didn't really belong together:
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
Obviously, the Urban Barb is a different case, but we weren't talking about that as far as I could tell.
Zhayne- Yes, he can, but he has a limited amount of skill points (at base 10 int 4 less). Slight of Hand, Escape Artist, and Bluff are not barb class skills.
So? Something being a class skill or not is just the difference of +3 to that skill. That's not really a deal-breaker in proficiency with that skill past early levels. Even at early levels, a characters ability score modifiers are probably as important, and only grow in importance as the game increases. The lack of skill points does pose a problem to the Barbarian who wants a breadth of skills, but it doesn't really limit his proficiency in a single skill.
|
|
Zhayne- Yes, he can, but he has a limited amount of skill points (at base 10 int 4 less). Slight of Hand, Escape Artist, and Bluff are not barb class skills.So? Something being a class skill or not is just the difference of +3 to that skill. That's not really a deal-breaker in proficiency with that skill past early levels. Even at early levels, a characters ability score modifiers are probably as important, and only grow in importance as the game increases. The lack of skill points does pose a problem to the Barbarian who wants a breadth of skills, but it doesn't really limit his proficiency in a single skill.
no, but read what I said, a barb is rarely going to be putting a point into those skills every level, while a rogue can.
no, but read what I said, a barb is rarely going to be putting a point into those skills every level, while a rogue can.Zhayne- Yes, he can, but he has a limited amount of skill points (at base 10 int 4 less). Slight of Hand, Escape Artist, and Bluff are not barb class skills.So? Something being a class skill or not is just the difference of +3 to that skill. That's not really a deal-breaker in proficiency with that skill past early levels. Even at early levels, a characters ability score modifiers are probably as important, and only grow in importance as the game increases. The lack of skill points does pose a problem to the Barbarian who wants a breadth of skills, but it doesn't really limit his proficiency in a single skill.
Why? Why wouldn't a Barbarian, if he wants to be good at those skills, put ranks into them at every level. There's nothing stopping him from doing so.
|
|
Why? Why wouldn't a Barbarian, if he wants to be good at those skills, put ranks into them at every level. There's nothing stopping him from doing so.no, but read what I said, a barb is rarely going to be putting a point into those skills every level, while a rogue can.Zhayne- Yes, he can, but he has a limited amount of skill points (at base 10 int 4 less). Slight of Hand, Escape Artist, and Bluff are not barb class skills.So? Something being a class skill or not is just the difference of +3 to that skill. That's not really a deal-breaker in proficiency with that skill past early levels. Even at early levels, a characters ability score modifiers are probably as important, and only grow in importance as the game increases. The lack of skill points does pose a problem to the Barbarian who wants a breadth of skills, but it doesn't really limit his proficiency in a single skill.
but then its not the generic "barbarian" aside that he is now doing = damage as a rogue. Or he isn't as good at those skills as a rogue due to stats and class skills.
Why? Why wouldn't a Barbarian, if he wants to be good at those skills, put ranks into them at every level. There's nothing stopping him from doing so.But then its not the generic "barbarian." Aside that he is now doing damage equal to a rogue. Or he isn't as good at those skills as a rogue due to stats and class skills.
How exactly does putting skill ranks in nontraditional skills have any impact on a character's damage output?
|
|
How exactly does putting skill ranks in nontraditional skills have any impact on a character's damage output?Why? Why wouldn't a Barbarian, if he wants to be good at those skills, put ranks into them at every level. There's nothing stopping him from doing so.But then its not the generic "barbarian." Aside that he is now doing damage equal to a rogue. Or he isn't as good at those skills as a rogue due to stats and class skills.
it may not. if your hulk SMASH barb. Then again you can't rage and stealth (or any of those really) unless you are an urban rager.
like I said, you can put points in them as a normal Barb, you just won't be as good at them as a rogue, cuz, your dex will be lower, your skills other than those 5 odd ones will be horrible, Yadda yadda, now you certainly deal more consistent damage than the rogue still.
It may not, if you're a "Hulk SMASH" barb.How exactly does putting skill ranks in nontraditional skills have any impact on a character's damage output?Why? Why wouldn't a Barbarian, if he wants to be good at those skills, put ranks into them at every level. There's nothing stopping him from doing so.But then its not the generic "barbarian." Aside that he is now doing damage equal to a rogue. Or he isn't as good at those skills as a rogue due to stats and class skills.
The correct answer is: No character's damage output would be. At all. A Barbarian could have 20 ranks in craft (basket weaving) and their base attack bonus, rage powers, and armor class would stay the exact same as someone who put 20 ranks in intimidate.
Then again you can't rage and stealth (or any of those really) unless you are an urban barbarian.
You can't attack an opponent and use stealth at the same time anyway (unless you're sniping), so there wouldn't really be a point to using rage and stealth at the same time. Not being able to rage and stealth isn't a loss.
Then again you can't rage and stealth (or any of those really) unless you are an urban barbarian.You can't attack an opponent and use stealth at the same time anyway (unless you're sniping), so there wouldn't really be a point to using rage and stealth at the same time. Not being able to rage and stealth isn't a loss.
I like how you equated stealth skill RAW nonsense with not being able to rage and stealth.
|
|
It may not, if you're a "Hulk SMASH" barb.How exactly does putting skill ranks in nontraditional skills have any impact on a character's damage output?Why? Why wouldn't a Barbarian, if he wants to be good at those skills, put ranks into them at every level. There's nothing stopping him from doing so.But then its not the generic "barbarian." Aside that he is now doing damage equal to a rogue. Or he isn't as good at those skills as a rogue due to stats and class skills.The correct answer is: No character's damage output would be. At all. A Barbarian could have 20 ranks in craft (basket weaving) and their base attack bonus, rage powers, and armor class would stay the exact same as someone who put 20 ranks in intimidate.
Then again you can't rage and stealth (or any of those really) unless you are an urban barbarian.You can't attack an opponent and use stealth at the same time anyway (unless you're sniping), so there wouldn't really be a point to using rage and stealth at the same time. Not being able to rage and stealth isn't a loss.
again, please read what I said.
for stealth, you can certainly move up behind a creature and attack it if they don't notice you!
I like how you equated stealth skill RAW nonsense with not being able to rage and stealth.Then again you can't rage and stealth (or any of those really) unless you are an urban barbarian.You can't attack an opponent and use stealth at the same time anyway (unless you're sniping), so there wouldn't really be a point to using rage and stealth at the same time. Not being able to rage and stealth isn't a loss.
I apologize for appearing to ignore the point, but I simply fail to see the practical difference. Activating rage is a free action, so if you're using stealth to activate a surprise round, you would still be able to catch an opponent opponent flat footed. Perhaps I'm unaware of particular tactic, though.
During Rage, that Swashbarian has a total DPR of 20.18 (before including claw attacks), and he doesn't need flanking or flat-footed opponents...
A Rogue with the exact same attributes and feats (and I'll git him proficiency with scimitars for free,) has a total DPR of 13.71... If he somehow could combine TWF and Dervish Dance instead, he'd be dealing an average of 22.85.
So... Not only the Swashbarian does considerably more damage than a Rogue, he's much more reliable in combat, has much better defenses and, in time, much better mobility as well.
Also... I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to use Controlled Rage in conjunction with Stealth. It's specifically stated that when using Controlled Rage, a Barbarian can still use Int-, Dex- and Cha-based skills.
20.18 DPR?
That is only sort of OK at lvl 5.
20.18 DPR?
That is only sort of OK at lvl 5.
It's about as much damage as any non-archer or 2-hander can have. Considering he doesn't have Weapon Focus or any other DPR-based feat. Duelings is a weak combat style, but DD makes it viable.
He's still dealing more damage than a Sneak Attacking Rogue. It goes up to 22.3 if we include a claw attack.
yes, but your damage is now par with a rouge, gratz. (actually.. less) though better saves and HP for sure.Is it now? What if the character can't flank?
Flanking is not that hard to do. Especially when the group in question here has multiple other melee combatants. And flanking is not the only way to achieve SA.
What if the opponent is immune to precision damage?
There aren't really that many enemies that are still immune to SA in PF. But if it is immune, a two handed STR Rogue will still be ok, they won't do as much damage without SA, but they still contribute; so will a Dex based Rogue who has Agile weapons or Dervish Dance.
What if the target has concealment?
Easily mitigated.
The Swashbarian also has higher AC (note how his AC actually goes up when he Rages)
Not really. My Skulking Slayer build had a base AC only 1 point behind yours and it goes up by 6 for a round every time I hit someone on a charge attack or hit someone otherwise flat-footed. It goes up by 3 for a round any time I get Sneak Attack someone who isn't flat-footed or if I am going with lethal damage vs. nonlethal.
and much better accuracy (Full BAB + Dex bonus makes for a whooping +4 to-hit over a Rogue. And this gap only widens with time). Full BAB also has the added advantages of giving the character extra attacks (he can already make 2 attacks. 3, if we count the calw from beast totem) and early access to combat feats (he can have Improved Critical by 9th level and if he can afford to invest in Str, he could use Power Attack without fear of being unable to hit the broadside of a mountain).
This I can't deny. Full BAB is amazing and quite frankly I see no good reason why the Rogue doesn't have it, the only other classes stuck with medium BAB are hybrid classes that have magic to close the gap.
..
During Rage, that Swashbarian has a total DPR of 20.18 (before including claw attacks), and he doesn't need flanking or flat-footed opponents...
A Rogue with the exact same attributes and feats (and I'll git him proficiency with scimitars for free,) has a total DPR of 13.71... If he somehow could combine TWF and Dervish Dance instead, he'd be dealing an average of 22.85.
A Rogue wouldn't need and should not take the same attributes and feats. You don't need to give him scimitar proficiency for free because there are other methods to get it, like being a Swashbuckler Rogue, which also nets you a second use of Combat Trick.
So... Not only the Swashbarian does considerably more damage than a Rogue,
The Skulking Slayer build I posted does 1d10+8(x4 on Crit)+1d6+12+6d8 every time he charges something.
he's much more reliable in combat,
Perhaps in some situations. But the Rogue will be FAR more reliable concerning EVERYTHING outside of combat and if we are not talking about PFS or APs that can become very important.
has much better defenses and,
Not really.
in time, much better mobility as well.
How is that? You give up Fast Movement as an Urban Barb. The Skulking Slayer I posted will have good mobility considering when he charges he gets SA and when he gets SA he adds the dice to his AC. That bonus will continue to grow with additional SA dice. In addition my next few feats for that build past lvl 6 would be Dodge, Mobility, and possibly Iron Hide. After Iron Hide you have the option of Improved Natural Armor too if you're really need to build up your AC.
Also... I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to use Controlled Rage in conjunction with Stealth. It's specifically stated that when using Controlled Rage, a Barbarian can still use Int-, Dex- and Cha-based skills.
For controled rage it would work. For basic Barb rage it would not. The Urban Barb would be ok though.
.....
Just for kicks, I built this Rogue who I think competes well with your Swashbarian.
Race: Human (Heart of the Wilderness Alternate Racial Trait)
Class: Rogue (Scout and Swashbuckler Archetypes – Scimitar proficiency)
Favored Class Bonus: 1/6 new talent
Traits: Trapfinder, Killer, Flame of the Dawnflower (Drawback: Pride)
STR: 10
DEX: 17 (19 after Racial Adjustment)[1st Ability Point]
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 10
Level/Feat/Talent:
1. Feat: Weapon Finesse / Bonus Feat: Dervish Dance
2. Talent: Combat Trick – Dodge
3. Feat: Mobility
4. Talent: Combat Trick – Spring Attack
5. Feat: Shadow Strike
6. Talent: Offensive Defense / Bonus Talent: Weapon Training - Scimitar
Items: +1 Keen Scimitar, Belt +2 Dex, Handy Haversack, Cloak of Resistance +1, normal leather armor
Initiative: +8
Attack bonus: +12
Damage: 1d6+7 (crit: 15-20/x2 + 4 Triat Bonuses)(SA: 3d6)
AC: 19 (+3 when using Offensive Defense)(+4 when moving in and out of threatened squares)
Also, leather armor doesn’t impose an ACP against skills.
Skills: I can max out 8 skills without needing extra points in Int.
HP: Average of 52 or so.
Battlefield Mobility: Excellent, with options between Scout's Charge and Spring Attack supported by Offesnive Defense and Mobility.
I am not going to calculate DPR, but I think this guy would be very comparable to your build at lvl 6.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Again, many good pointsThose builds are really nice, kudos.
Thank you. In all honesty, I like the Urban Barb ideas too, now that I have taken a closer look at it. I think it would be a great multiclass option to combine with some of my Rogue ideas.
That half-orc does have some issues against anything immune to non-lethal
True, not sure how much immunity he will see at level 6 though. Also, he can always turn Merciful off and still be doing a 1d10+8(x4) + 3d6 SA. But by the high end of Mid levels, if too many things started having immunity, I would probably retrain to take advantage of my Chainfighter alternate racial trait and the bonuses Skulking Slayers get to Dirty Tricks. I would probably go with Trip and/or Disarm as a secondary maneuver focus.
(and STR-based Rogues always seem weird to me)
Me too but it works well, especially with the Skulking Slayer.
and somewhat low AC (Offensive Defense only grants the AC bonus against the target of your sneak attack, right?)
quote: Offensive Defense** (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for 1 round.
No mention of that bonus being restricted to a single target. Note, there are other Rogue talents that do specifically mention a single target, in the same book, on the same page, Befuddling Strike. So, I don't think it's by accident.
especially if he's going to be charging around.
My next few feats would be dedicated to Dodge, Mobility, and probably Iron Hide to mitigate that very problem.
The Aasimar seems to only come online a bit later on,
That is by design. The Aasimar was designed for the OP's problem, which stated he was running a lvl 12 group with a guy who wanted to be an Aasimar Rogue. That build has all its basic tactics by lvl 12, because that was my goalpost.
and i'm pretty sure you can only take Combat Trick once.
The Aasimar is a Swashbuckler Rogue, which grants him a Martial Weapon proficiency AND the ability to take Combat Trick twice.
As for the 5-item challenge (yeah, I'm totally gonna call it that), I meant a single Barbarian can do that better than any single Rogue (I probably could have been clearer).
Is that single Barb going to be easier to manage in combat? Yes, he has full BAB and versatile uses of Rage. Is that single Barb going to be able to keep up with even a basic Rogue build outside of combat? Probably not without significant resources pumped into it.
After all, 1) is pretty much a moot point, as doing 50+ damage in a CDG is going to lead to a DC 60+ Fort save, which, except in some very specific conditions, is going to have a 95% success rate,
Agreed.
3) is pretty much an issue with the player (if you're alive thanks to the extra HP from Rage, you're on borrowed time),
Agreed.
and 5)... Well, you can get more feats, but that just shows that a) Rogue Talents are so mediocre that the best use for them is to trade them out
Disagree, with a LOT of builds there are several Talents that are better than most feats. However, I will admit there are far too many talents that are far too underwhelming.
and b) Rage Powers are usually better than most feats.
Agreed, they do get some nifty options.
I'm going to bow out of this discussion now, since I don't think neither of us is going to budge :)
Agreed. Although I will budge far enough to say a level dip in Urban Barb would be a strong addition to most of my build ideas.
Do Rogues have their strengths? Yes. Can Rogues be effective? Again, yes. Can Rogues be more effective than other classes built for the same purpose? That's going to boil down to personal opinion, and mine is still going to be a no.
Agree to disagree. However, I do have a new found respect for Urban Barbarian.
|
I'm just going to say that I have played a Skulking Slayer Scout rogue before. about 1/4 of the way into the campaign, we decided to stop calling it a rogue and start calling it a "thing". Because they don't play like your average rogue [Dextrous TWF/Duelist character with a great aptitude for traps and people skills] much in my experience.
The Aasimar seems to only come online a bit later on, and i'm pretty sure you can only take Combat Trick once.
Again, swashbuckler archetype can take it twice.
Also, the OP was looking for a 10th level rogue build that used Cha and could hold its own in a party. It doesn't need to be viable at lower levels.
The Aasimar seems to only come online a bit later on, and i'm pretty sure you can only take Combat Trick once.
Again, swashbuckler archetype can take it twice.
Also, the OP was looking for a 10th level rogue build that used Cha and could hold its own in a party. It doesn't need to be viable at lower levels.
What is funny is that I built a build that used combat trick multiple times, each level actually.
So this means that future rogues are less specific.I had a whip build that was really good.
But--this means that such a build is no longer viable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, you can take Combat Trick twice as a normal rogue. Because rogues can take Ninja Trick{Combat Trick[Whatever]}. Doesn't work in reverse. Three times as a swashbuckler rogue.
That got errata'd out. A Rogue can no longer take a Ninja trick of a Rogue talent of the same name.
A hilarious nerf really.
• Page 70—In the Rogue Talents class feature, in the
Ninja Trick entry, add the following after the first
sentence: The rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same
name as a rogue talent.
|
I really can't see what all the fuss is about. The player need to harden up. Rogue or Thief ROLE = backstabs badguys, uses a crossbow/long bow with posion tipped arrows, clears traps, hides in shadows and attacks by flanking & missle or incendury? Not hard. No crying in the corner how all the fighters got all the gold and glory needed. Mate your a Thief, you steele things & then sell it back to people.
I disagree with pretty much everything Shadowlord said, but I'm tired of this discussion, so I'll simply leave and hide this thread. Hopefully the OP will find a solution to his problem.
I really can't see what all the fuss is about. The player need to harden up. Rogue or Thief ROLE = backstabs badguys, uses a crossbow/long bow with posion tipped arrows, clears traps, hides in shadows and attacks by flanking & missle or incendury? Not hard. No crying in the corner how all the fighters got all the gold and glory needed. Mate your a Thief, you steele things & then sell it back to people.
The Thief you described is better done by an alchemist.
You know because poison use is an advance talent for some god awful reason.
IF you really MUST have a TWF Rogue, and not the reach Rogue/Fighter I suggest above, or any one of the numerous, better substitions...
I suggest a Ranger with a cutlass or longsword and a cestus or spiked gauntlet. go STR based, and power attack two handed. when flanking, then use your ITWF with the sword and cestus/gauntlet. Thus, when making a standard attack, you are still power attacking two handed for decent damage, but when flanking or invisible you can add sneak attack damage to each strike. at level 3, when you get your first Rogue level, on a standard attack it would be 1d6+9, assuming cutlass.(average, 12.5) On a flank, it would be 1d6+4+1d6/1d4+2+1d6. (average, 18.5). Assuming you hit every time, of course.
Something like this:
Ranger 7/ Rogue (Scout) 5
STR 16 (18)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 7
1 Power Attack
1 Weapon Focus
R2 TWF
3 Iron Will
5 Improved Initiative
7 Cleave
R6 ITWF
9 Furious Focus
11 Improved Iron Will
Im sure feat selection could be improved, this is just off the top of my head.
Coherent Rage trait allows you to use Stealth and Rage.
Interesting.
My two most sneakiest PCs were an Inquisitor, and a Ranger/Fighter.
Saying that the only way to be good at Stealth, is to be a Rogue, is like saying the only way to be good at Profession(Barrister), is to be an Expert.
Of course Rogue isn't the only thing that can be Stealthy. Actually, without investments beyond Skill Ranks the Shadow Bloodline Sorc, Ranger, and Clerics with Night sub-domain are naturally better at Stealth than your typical Rogue. On the other hand, build a Chamelion Rogue and take two maybe three HiPS Advanced Rogue Talents, and the Rogue should be beating everyone at Stealth. There are other methods for the Rogue to be the best at Stealth, but that is probably the easiest and most straight forward.
A one level dip into the Shadowdancer prestige class can make an amazing stealthy character, too. You lose BAB, though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hear rangers make great shadowdancers oddly.
|
Also, the Hide in Plain Sight ability of the Shadow Bloodline is available through Eldritch Heritage.
You could, as a Fighter, or Barbarian, without multiclassing, hide from Blindsense, Blindsense, Scent, Tremorsense, in Darkness, Dimlight, Normal Light, and Bright Light, without cover, concealment, and whilst being observed. Also, disable magic traps.
I hear rangers make great shadowdancers oddly.
The best, in my opinion. A Ranger with a Bardiche, Combat Reflexes (prereq) and Power Attack is a beast during full attacks, and deals enough damage during Spring Attack HiPS runs to be a fearful opponent indeed. Makes a much tougher, more accuarate, and overall more damaging SD by far.
|
|
if i were you i would suggest to him to play a trap smith ranger, or a ninja.
trapsmith ranger is a better rogue then the rogue by far and almost as many skills.
the ninja, if you can get past the name, is a Cha based rogue (fits his concept) and can use fast stealth + hell cat stealth/shadow dancer to flank and SA targets. he doesnt need to use the ki pool points for anything other then movement and full attacks if the ki pool is to eastern for him.
i like the ninja with eldritch heritage concept for a great stealth damage dealer.
You could, as a Fighter, or Barbarian, without multiclassing, hide from Blindsense, Blindsense, Scent, Tremorsense, in Darkness, Dimlight, Normal Light, and Bright Light, without cover, concealment, and whilst being observed. Also, disable magic traps.
You are talking about 3rd party feats and the Trapfinder trait right? Could you elaborate?
the ninja, if you can get past the name, is a Cha based rogue (fits his concept) and can use fast stealth + hell cat stealth/shadow dancer to flank and SA targets. he doesnt need to use the ki pool points for anything other then movement and full attacks if the ki pool is to eastern for him.
i like the ninja with eldritch heritage concept for a great stealth damage dealer.
Me too. I like the Ninja class, but the typical fluff doesn't really fit well in most games. I like to think of them more like a non-PrC Assassin class.