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I always read Punisher as a Hard LN.
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I always read Punisher as a Hard LN.Admittedly I haven't read much punisher, that's all coming from movies and the like.
Imo the punisher I know takes things into his own hands far to much to be lawful. (That is a itchy trigger finger)
True he does take on judge, jury, and executioner role all on his loansome. However, before he was a cop and good guy. The trama of losing his family to bad guys the system couldnt touch just sent him over the edge. Its been a long tiem since i read any of my punisher comics, hmm.
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Hmm, Punisher was always lawful evil to me. Probably my problem assuming that a guy is still evil for doing evil things even though they have good outcomes.
I don't know, man. I mean, I know that alignments are flexible, but I'm not sure someone of an Evil alignment would go out of their way to rescue or help Spider-Man, Daredevil or the other heroes as much as Punisher does, even knowing they're gonna suckerpunch him at some point.
Off topic, Punisher is like Marvel's official punching bag of the superhero community.
In the comics he wasn't a cop, he's a Vietnam vet.
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I see zero difference between Punisher and Judge Dredd except the society they live in. Castle is hardcore LN, he is just enforcing his view of justice because the system failed.
Yeah.....outright killing people because the system doesnt work doesnt sound neutral to me. It sounds pretty evil because of the killing people left and right bit.
don't know, man. I mean, I know that alignments are flexible, but I'm not sure someone of an Evil alignment would go out of their way to rescue or help Spider-Man, Daredevil or the other heroes as much as Punisher does, even knowing they're gonna suckerpunch him at some point.
Off topic, Punisher is like Marvel's official punching bag of the superhero community.
Once again the whole killing people wholesale thing just wont give up on evil for me. I guess thats the difference for me. Despite saving some people all the time, deciding to kill criminals outright is evil to me. Just because your alignment is evil doesnt mean you cant ever help someone or have friends you wont throw under the bus.
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Every criminal Punisher wastes ups his alignment more towards Good.
In my games, in Paladins fall, they can atone by jamming their thumbs into criminals' eyes.
Saffron/Bridget/Yolanda from Firefly.
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Also what of Jack Burton from Big Trouble in Little China?
More like CG, his immediate reaction to a friend's girl being kidnapped is "Let's go stop those guys!" and he repeatedly risks himself for no reason other than it being the right thing to do. He may not have been put on this earth to 'get it', but he's a solid guy.
Doctor Rockso, the Rock n' Roll Clown.
Doctor Rockso is a monster. CE all the way. The actual band-members in Metalocalypse are perhaps a better example...though not a very bright one.
I don't have a specific character to advise, but if you want some inspiration for a CN character, you could look into the bohéme movement. The whole living at the edge of civilization, self declared outcast, and actively triyng to scandalize society by breaking taboos, just for something in and on itself, looks pretty chaotic neutral to me.
And also, an Urban Barbarian that charges into battle while reciting poems by Baudelaire would be cool as f*ck.
As noted in a recent thread, CN is my least favorite alignment. That said, there /are/ some interesting CN characters out there in popular media. Are there any that could be potential role models for building a PC? I can think of a few.
I'd put the Pork Chop Express in the CG camp. He gets pulled in to get his truck back, but stays to help the girls escape without any promise of reward.
Also what of Jack Burton from Big Trouble in Little China?
More like CG, his immediate reaction to a friend's girl being kidnapped is "Let's go stop those guys!" and he repeatedly risks himself for no reason other than it being the right thing to do. He may not have been put on this earth to 'get it', but he's a solid guy.
Also what of Jack Burton from Big Trouble in Little China?
the getting involved over the truck is what had me wondering. But yeah, I suppose I'd find it hard to argue that he isn't CG by the end.
As for the Punisher, because he takes great pains to harm only bad guys, I'd consider him Lawful Neutral.
hmmm, CN can be a tough one to pin down in fictional characters, and a lot of people tend to view the interpretations differently, but I will toss a few out there..
Young Conan : believed in freedom (his own) but was wiling to kill and loot almost anyone, had a personal code of honor..but it was kinda flexible.
The Man with no name : Another kinda CN/CG, but was very willing to kill and have some variable morals at times.
Mad martigan : before the fairy powder crap..a bit wild and unhinged, then he went all CG after that.
Khal Drogo : he was a pretty text book barbarian, and CN would likely fit.
Floki : From the show Vikings is pretty unpredictable, and hard to figure out, so would be another good CN example..heck alot of the characters could be called CN but Floki stands out the most to me.
These three are almost perfect. Mad martigan was the first to come to mind, but definitely Floki too.
Jaime Lannister - Self-centered, psychotically ruthless (especially in defense of people he cares for), and not overly inclined to keep his word...but not overtly cruel, and seemingly very capable of caring about both people and principles.
Ruthless in battle has no real relevance on alignment. . . I'd put Jaime closer to NN than CN. . . one chaotic act (slaying king you are sworn to protect) does not an alignment make.
For a Knightly CN character from GoT/SoF&I I'd go with The Hound.
I am quite frankly amazed nobody has mentioned Bender Bending Rodriguez, the epitome of chaotic neutral.
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Ruthless in battle has no real relevance on alignment. . . I'd put Jaime closer to NN than CN. . . one chaotic act (slaying king you are sworn to protect) does not an alignment make.
Eh...I'd argue a continued pattern of incest is Chaotic in most societies, flying in the face of social convention and all. And I was talking about his ruthlessness outside battle ala pushing children out windows (which doesn't have a lot to do with Chaos, but strongly argues against Good). Still, True Neutral works too.
For a Knightly CN character from GoT/SoF&I I'd go with The Hound.
That's probably fair. Robert Barratheon probably fits under CN as well, by the time the readers met him. He may have been CG when he was younger...but that was a while back.
A few thoughts:
1. No one has mentioned Hellboy yet? I could see it if people thought he drifted into CG territory, but the one CN character I ever played was certainly inspired by him.
2. I agree about Riddick
3. Bender Bending Rodriguez might cross over into CE territory
4. It's been a LONG time since I've seen this, but could Dola the sky pirate from Studio Ghibli's "Laputa: Castle in the Sky" be a good female example?
5. Several characters from Adventure Time might qualify, including Flame Princess, Ice King, Magic Man, Party God, and Marceline. In fact, Flame Princess was specifically stated to be "evil" by her father, who conceded that she might become Chaotic Neutral if persuaded (but that there would be an experience point penalty). Recent events may best place her in Lawful territory, though (her edict that no one in her kingdom may lie, for example). By contrast, Ice King would be of the "insane" variety of CN, Magic Man seems CE with a slim hope for redemption, and Marceline seems the most genuinely CN of the lot.
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I love that show.... ahhh flame princess.
AT is one of the great animated shows of our generation. It's pretty much the only TV I watch, to be honest.
Hellboy is unambiguously Good. Chaotic? Yeah, probably, but the Good is a much bigger facet of his character.
I can certainly see the validity in that viewpoint.
Lusiphur from Posion Elves.
Aw, great. Now I have to go look around in the basement. Why? Definitely CN, though.
Bender breaks laws, but isn't evil. In his own words, "I never set out to hurt anyone...or help anyone." He commits no greater atrocities than theft, breaking and entering, jailbreaking, and occasional blackmail.. But he also, at personal risk, helps those he cares for, such as Fry and occasionally Leela. No sir, Bender is vehemently CN, not evil.
James Bond
Ruthless in battle has no real relevance on alignment. . . I'd put Jaime closer to NN than CN. . . one chaotic act (slaying king you are sworn to protect) does not an alignment make.Eh...I'd argue a continued pattern of incest is Chaotic in most societies, flying in the face of social convention and all. And I was talking about his ruthlessness outside battle ala pushing children out windows (which doesn't have a lot to do with Chaos, but strongly argues against Good). Still, True Neutral works too.
For a Knightly CN character from GoT/SoF&I I'd go with The Hound.That's probably fair. Robert Barratheon probably fits under CN as well, by the time the readers met him. He may have been CG when he was younger...but that was a while back.
I agree with everything you just said.
But on Jaime I'd say he may have started either CN or NN, but if his arc continues the way it was going his alignment is shifting either towards CG, NG or possibly towards LN with his whole redemption.
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I agree with everything you just said.
But on Jaime I'd say he may have started either CN or NN, but if his arc continues the way it was going his alignment is shifting either towards CG, NG or possibly towards LN with his whole redemption.
I don't think he's there yet, but yeah, a lot of his character arc could be described as a drift towards Good.
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James Bond
What? I'd put James Bond as lawful evil more than anything else. He is utterly devoted to his country, has followed orders even when it meant the death of his fellow operatives, kills without hesitation or remorse, and only sees women as disposable pleasures.
The hound from Game of thrones. Might manage to climb himself up to CG
Jammie is CE and might climb his way up to CN (or further) but attempted murder of an 8 year old is a reeaaaaaally deep pit.
3. Bender Bending Rodriguez might cross over into CE territory
He talks a big game and all ("Kill all humans" and whatnot), but do we ever see him kill all humans?
He's the kind of CN that sees demons as a role model instead of azata or proteans, but he doesn't have it in him to be truly Evil.
James BondWhat? I'd put James Bond as lawful evil more than anything else. He is utterly devoted to his country, has followed orders even when it meant the death of his fellow operatives, kills without hesitation or remorse, and only sees women as disposable pleasures.
Right. So Lawful Good, then.
I see zero difference between Punisher and Judge Dredd except the society they live in. Castle is hardcore LN, he is just enforcing his view of justice because the system failed.Yeah.....outright killing people because the system doesnt work doesnt sound neutral to me. It sounds pretty evil because of the killing people left and right bit.
Once again the whole killing people wholesale thing just wont give up on evil for me. I guess thats the difference for me. Despite saving some people all the time, deciding to kill criminals outright is evil to me. Just because your alignment is evil doesnt mean you cant ever help someone or have friends you wont throw under the bus.don't know, man. I mean, I know that alignments are flexible, but I'm not sure someone of an Evil alignment would go out of their way to rescue or help Spider-Man, Daredevil or the other heroes as much as Punisher does, even knowing they're gonna suckerpunch him at some point.
Off topic, Punisher is like Marvel's official punching bag of the superhero community.
Agreed. I tend to put him somewhere around NE myself. He may have rules and codes... but even HE isn't very stringent on them. I've seen him let bad guys go, and blackmail and threaten them as long as they could be of use...
He has no interest in justice or humanity... he's all about revenge. Batman goes out every night to save the city... Punisher goes out to kill the criminals... He's a lot like Dexter in that fashion.
Spawn.
Though, CN is the best I can give him.
Been a LONG time since I cared at all about Spawn... but I'd rank him as Evil just based on the fact that's he's made from the fundamental essence of evil ;)
James BondWhat? I'd put James Bond as lawful evil more than anything else. He is utterly devoted to his country, has followed orders even when it meant the death of his fellow operatives, kills without hesitation or remorse, and only sees women as disposable pleasures.
He also disobeys orders when he thinks he needs to. He's just a little on this side of Captain Kirk when it comes to authority... He has a cause, but he's very a much a 'whatever it takes' kind of character.
The American Colonies: Don't Tread on Me.
The hound from Game of thrones. Might manage to climb himself up to CGJammie is CE and might climb his way up to CN (or further) but attempted murder of an 8 year old is a reeaaaaaally deep pit.
The Hound is LN going CN.
Jamie is LN on the path of redemption to LG. After all, he was commanded to push Bran by the Queen and he is sworn to obey.
Edit: This is interesting because both the Hound and Jamie have killed a child at the request of the royal family, yet you assign them rather different alignments.
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How about Thomas Covenant?
Any kid between the ages of 1 and 3?
Stitch?
Animal (Muppet)?
The Mad Hatter?
The Riddler?
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Torm, from the Knights of Myth Drannor (helps that he was statted out and his alignment listed as such). He had a quote about courage that made wince every time I read it (I think it's in the novel Spellfire, but I could be wrong).
Walter Slovotsky, from Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series. His laws are just awesome. Here are a few:
A hero's work is never done. Which is one of the minor reasons I don't recommend the profession.
When it comes to throwing a fit, it's better to give than to receive -- and much better to avoid the whole thing entirely.
It's easier to get forgiveness than to get permission.
Boldness is like a condom. If you depend on it all the time, no matter how good it is, and no matter how good you are, eventually it will break.
I always have a fallback position whenever I take a risk. If all else fails, I'll die horribly, at great length, and in great pain. Mind you, it's not a good fallback position...
Relax, the universe is out to get you.
When it comes to dealing with the law of averages, it's best to be a habitual offender.
God, give me the strength to change the things that can be changed, the strength to change the things that probably can't be changed, and the strength to change that which can't possibly be changed. Hey, if You can't work miracles, what the hell good are You?
9: Sometimes, you can't do anything about something that sucks.
9 (revised): Sometimes, you can't do anything about something that sucks -- until later.
Doing the best thing right away is much better than doing the second-best thing after much hesitation. I didn't say it's easier, mind, just better.
Give me a place to stand, and I'll probably move along anyway.
While it doesn't get the good press that hard work and industry get, laziness is a talent to be cultivated, like any other.
Incidentally, both these characters are rogues.
The American Colonies: Don't Tread on Me.
The hound from Game of thrones. Might manage to climb himself up to CGJammie is CE and might climb his way up to CN (or further) but attempted murder of an 8 year old is a reeaaaaaally deep pit.
The Hound is LN going CN.
Jamie is LN on the path of redemption to LG. After all, he was commanded to push Bran by the Queen and he is sworn to obey.
Edit: This is interesting because both the Hound and Jamie have killed a child at the request of the royal family, yet you assign them rather different alignments.
And ironically the killing of children isn't the act that keeps me from making either of them Lawful. . . it does start them both off as neutral however.
With Jaime its the King slaying that you have to reconcile against the strict code of the order of Knights he's sworn to-- vows which he otherwise hasn't broken except two obvious breaches (kingslaying and incesting).
As far as the hound. . . (going to spoiler tag this since its not first book necessarily)
The hound hates knights, hates their code-- clearly not lawful in that regards.
He is, however, loyal to the Lannisters-- but only to a point. He will kill a child for them because he has no objection to this. He will save Sansa from being raped because he knows allowing it would be bad for them, and because he has a soft spot for her.
But when fire is involved. . . he's out. Completely ignores all of his vows which he has at that point taken and goes on the lam.
Tyrion's henchman character is another interesting candidate for CN, though since he is solely motivated by greed I'd say NN or maybe a hint of NE.
Another example-- The Bloody Nine/Logen Ninefingers-- definitely starts off as CN.
Daario Naharis, decided to kill his superiors rather than follow orders to slay daenarys targaryen.
