Good Evening Fellow Gamers,
So I'm kicking around the idea of a character that doesn't use their class abilities because they don't know they have them, or don't want to have them, to have the power 'come online' later in the campaign.
Is this something that would make the others in the group upset with me? I don't want to 'multiclass' because I want to be at the 'right' level when I finally remove the fetters, and my DM doesn't allow 'retraining'
Example 1: Cephira is a paladin. But despite having been blessed with the calling of paladinhood, she does not believe that she is yet worthy. So she doesn't use her smite or lay on hands abilities (or anything that requires an action to use), but will have access to 'passive' abilities.
Example 2: Brogan is an Ulfen from a superstitious tribe. He's not a particularly imposing warrior, but he has been in his share of battles. However, he is a sorcerer who has doesn't know that he can draw upon arcane power. Later in the campaign, he'll realize his potential when he draws upon his magic to unleash close ranged or personal buff spells.
Example 3: Orson is a mild-mannered warrior with a sense of restrained violence. One day, in a fight with a worthy foe, he finally has enough and goes berserk, and unleashes brutal two-handed strikes in a frenzy of devastation.
Are these legitimate ideas? Could they been fun?
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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Well, starting out as a Lawful Barbarian, or Non-Good/Non-Lawful Paladin is something doable.
A Non-casting caster, basically makes you The Load, and that can really grind on your fellow players.
You really, need the right group for this.
Of course they're legitimate ideas! However, you may want to consider informing your group of your plans. I'm not sure if your plans revolve around them not knowing, but I definitely think it's something to run by them beforehand. How much you reveal depends upon a few things (in no particular order except where noted) I suppose:
1) How long before you reveal your class abilities
2) The difficulty of the campaign
3) The class you're hiding (for example, a "hidden" barbarian or paladin could still contribute fairly well in melee depending on their stats, but a sorcerer without spells and bloodline stuff isn't much more than a commoner from what I can think of)
4) The group's willingness to play along
5) GM approval (this is the most important one imo)
Good luck and good gaming!
Thanks for your input folks.
I would definitely run it by my group before I did it. And depending on the character idea, I would probably become 'fully awakened' by level 5-6 or so.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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1. Seems completely unworkable to me. Why? She knows she has these powers and, because she's a Paladin, not using them is the kinda thing that very much makes a Paladin fall. Not going all out to stop a child killing demon or letting your allies potentially die when you can help them is not Paladin-safe behavior, IMO.
A slightly different (and more workable) version would be the character who started out as a different class, and only took the Paladin levels when they believed they were worthy.
2. I like this one. Personally, this sounds exactly like the ACG Bloodrager class (who don't actually get spells till 4th...and are still useful even without ever using them). Alternately, he could start as another class (maybe Fighter) and then grab a level of Sorcerer when it seems appropriate, maybe going into Eldritch Knight or Dragon Disciple thereafter.
3. I'd do this one as the Viking Fighter archetype or the Wild Stalker Ranger, both of which gets Rage at 4th level. Again, not getting the abilities till later. If your GM's generous
Or, to put it a more general way: You can do this without ignoring your capabilities by simply playing something that doesn't even get those abilities till later. This is almost always an option,and while not optimized, is more useful and IMO probably more fun than simply ignoring many of your character's abilities.
As an additional plus, with a cooperative GM, an appropriate moment can be engineered shortly after receiving the abilities in question.
This is not a paladin falls thread.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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So... you're saying your Paladin doesn't identify himself as a Paladin, but as a warrior? Seems perfectly fine.
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah, I have no issue with that kind of reflavoring either...but the OP wasn't talkng about just that but actively ignoring large numbers of class features, not just renaming them. And that's a slightly more complex issue.
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Yeah, I have no issue with that kind of reflavoring either...but the OP wasn't talkng about just that but actively ignoring large numbers of class features, not just renaming them. And that's a slightly more complex issue.So... you're saying your Paladin doesn't identify himself as a Paladin, but as a warrior? Seems perfectly fine.
** spoiler omitted **
If my paladin doenst use his smite evil ability on the goblins attacking the town cause he wants to save it for the evil wizard who unleashed them am i now falling cause im not using my class features? If my fighter has improved sunder but doesnt use it is he no longer being a fighter?
Its not like he said his paladin wasnt fighting evil or trying to do the right thing. Just he wasnt using his smite and lay on hands abilities to their utmost. Not the worlds best paladin, but certainly nothing to fall over.
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If my paladin doenst use his smite evil ability on the goblins attacking the town cause he wants to save it for the evil wizard who unleashed them am i now falling cause im not using my class features? If my fighter has improved sunder but doesnt use it is he no longer being a fighter?
Its not like he said his paladin wasnt fighting evil or trying to do the right thing. Just he wasnt using his smite and lay on hands abilities to their utmost. Not the worlds best paladin, but certainly nothing to fall over.
The OP asked to drop it. I did. Do the same. Or start an entirely different thread, wherein I'd be happy to respond to you.
Well, nobody knows the name of their "class".
It's something that exists completely metagame.
You would be surprised how many people forget that.
"What?!? A Lawful Good Rogue, who fights with a Shield and Longsword, for justice? What madness is this?!?!".
Yeah.
Like that.
I see your argument and raise you wizards!
Sounds like a fun idea.
Get the other players and the GM in on it, and perhaps some of the other players want in on the idea of developing more than just level based rewards.
Should be a story heavy setting/group though who think this kind of self-gimping is cool, and not disruptive.
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If we're talking about Paladins falling, I've got a thread for it already.
I've tried the same thing before, but less of a "they don't know it" and more of a self imposed power limitation. The kind of thing where I played a Warblade who had a massive Fullblade on his back, but fought with daggers because he wasn't going unsheathe 'Strife' for just some random thieves.
It's a hard balancing act (I couldn't manage it for more than a session, since full blades are sweet), especially knowing that NOT using your abilities could lead to you dying before you get the chance to use them. You never know how a fight is going to go, maybe your first day out you get crit with a long bow and NEED to Lay on Hands to keep yourself conscious, thus either making you die without completing your RP goal or making you abandon it without the pathos you wanted to give the moment. It's a hard call, so you'll have to decide if you're willing to risk dying for the secret, since even if your GM knows you're doing this, they (in my opinion) shouldn't take it easy on you since you chose to do this.
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This seems like the perfect opportunity to multi-class, and you may want to take a second look at it. The first and third could be fighters, rangers, cavalier, rogues or the like who then take a level of Paladin or Barbarian. While dipping spell casters can backfire, dipping across martials can actually be quite effective. So if you are worried about effectiveness when you come online, don't be.
Example 2 is a different kettle of fish altogether. While a paladin and barbarian are still fine without smite and rage, a sorcerer without spell casting is no better than a commoner. Might be fun to role-play, but, as bbt said, you might become the load.
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While I wont comment on specific character ideas, there are a few things to consider (that some have mentionned, that I will try to synthesize):
1) This is a team game. If you arent pulling your weight, it can frustrate other players, even if they are already aware of your character concept.
2) This is also an individual game. While you may have fun working up to the build-up, you may be very frustrated by everyone else taking the spotlight. Depending on the group, it can take a while to get to level 5-6, so be psychologically ready to be considerably less useful than the rest of the team.
3) The GM is a player too. It can really frustrate the GM, since it messes with the notion of "CR" (I know it's unrealiable, but it's still a basis) and makes it harder for them to work with. There are few things more frustrating than a group with a single character that cant keep up.
In the end, all ideas are legitimate, but that in no way means they are acceptable at your table. You should be discussing this with your GM & other players, not us. We cant provide the validation this idea needs, we can only point out potential flaws. Good luck.
Thanks for your input folks.
I would definitely run it by my group before I did it. And depending on the character idea, I would probably become 'fully awakened' by level 5-6 or so.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
Pretty much can't go wrong, in my view. If your players and DM are up for it, I think all those characters would work. Might inspire some of the others to try something they've always wanted to do but haven't got around to. I've often thought about playing a reluctant cleric (a la Death's Heretic) as I think that could be equally fun.
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2: A Sorcerer without spells is really pushing it IMO. You could have a similar flavor without completely invalidating your usefulness to the team by playing a Cleric, Oracle, Magus, or Bard without spells. At least with 3/4 BAB and armor proficiency you can be more productive in a fight than the resources needed to heal you afterwards.
+1 to all the points WilliamOak raised.
As a GM I'd be very concerned about this unbalancing the rest of the party. Thankfully, you are at least mentioning it to the GM and the other players in-advance so that they won't be caught unawares.
Even so, maybe it's just how I envision and calibrate level ranges in my own games, but I generally see level 5-6 as nearing the peak of realistic human potential. I've always seen PCs who are much past that as being akin to superheroes. With that in mind, I'd suggest level 2 or (at the latest) level 3 would be a more believable point for this self-awakening — particularly if you are unwilling or unable to multiclass.
Just my 2cp...
I have a Paladin right now who is just getting control of his LoH's. For a long time after reaching level two, he never knew he had the ability, and when he discovered it, it was accidentally. He's learned now how to initiate it, and that there is a limit on how often he can do it, etc... (He's never actually Smite-d (Smote?) anything. Just circumstance... low combat, high roleplay game.)
It has always been a source of... slight annoyance (I guess?)... that characters gain a level and then are just "more" than they were. I understand why it happens, of course. Who doesn't want to play with their shiny new toys? But, it kills a small part of immersion for me.
I would shy away from the caster who doesn't know he can cast, though. That might be a little too extreme, and make you a little too ineffectual.
Don't think of leveling as.
*DING* I learned something new.
It's an abstraction, that new feat you learned is the product of trial and error everyday until you got it right. That new spell the wizard learned many a sleepless night as he tried to perfect the arcane formula. LoH prayers seemingly unheard yet still answered when times seemed their darkest.