Thaumaturge and 1H+ Weapons (i.e., Bows)

[Red Griffyn]

Can a designer weigh in on the RAI/RAW of whether Thaumaturges can use Implement's Empowerment with a 1H+ weapon. There is an active debate on reddit where folks are arguing that even with the L1 Ammunition Thaumaturgy Feat that you can't do it. That would seem like an oversight to me, but feel free to weigh in.

[Squiggit]

Ammunition Thaumaturgy lets you reload without a free hand, but bows need a free hand to simply wield them properly and strike with them, so it doesn't interact at all.

It's definitely not an oversight, the two features don't interact at all.

[Captain Morgan]

Yup, no 1+ weapons.

[breithauptclan]

Agreed. 1 is different than 1+.

[gesalt]

If your gm allows uncommon options, you might be able to manage something.

A darkwood bow has a bulk of L which qualifies it for Juggle. If you Juggle the bow and an implement, you still count as having a free hand while wielding anything that can be wielded in one hand which a bow is, so long as you also have a free hand. Since your other implement isn't a weapon, you avoid the Juggle clause about not being able to use abilities that require weapons in each hand.

[breithauptclan]

I don't think that Juggle is going to change the difference between a 1 hand weapon and a 1+ hand weapon.

A Weapon Implement is required to be a 1 hand weapon. So a bow won't qualify.

Implement's Empowerment also requires using a 1 hand weapon. So using a bow and juggling a Wand Implement so that you have enough hands to fire the bow also won't work.

[gesalt]

Depends on how you parse "one handed." Bows are wielded in one hand like any other 1H weapon, they just impose an extra restriction on your off-hand. Useless for a normal thaumaturge unless your bow is also your implement and you hold nothing else (a waste really) but Juggle gets you around that pesky free hand requirement.

[Red Griffyn]

Squiggit wrote:

Ammunition Thaumaturgy lets you reload without a free hand, but bows need a free hand to simply wield them properly and strike with them, so it doesn't interact at all.

It's definitely not an oversight, the two features don't interact at all.

Its an oversight because its totally arbitrary to treat bows, and by extension any 1+ handed weapons as functionally different from a 1H weapon when you've force a feat tax to use them. 30-40ft of range for full strength damage (instead of half) is already a significant difference between having a thrown weapon build and bow build. I can make a more damaging build by using a 1D8 Chakram, grabbing point blank stance from archer or fighter, and getting STR to 18. The damage difference on a hit is 3-8 static damage over the course of L1 to L20 vs. a shortbow with no additional support (not factoring in deadly dice). That seems fair for a loss of static damage for some extra range. I don't see any sacred cows being slaughtered here.

Hopefully the person who wrote the feat/class can weigh in and Paizo can clarify it.

[Squiggit]

Arbitrary is kind of a loaded word. Yes, Paizo could have made Thaumaturges more compatible with non-1h weapons, but they chose not to.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm sure thaumaturges aren't supposed to use 2H weapons. I'm less sure they weren't supposed to be able to use 1H+ weapons.

The weapon implement's Implement's Interruption ability refers to ranged weapons, implying there should be some candidates. But there aren't a lot of those if you exclude bows.

[Squiggit]

Ascalaphus wrote:

The weapon implement's Implement's Interruption ability refers to ranged weapons, implying there should be some candidates. But there aren't a lot of those if you exclude bows.

Among ranged and thrown weapons, there are 9 1+ hand weapons in the game and 48 1h weapons.

Nine drops to seven if you don't count composite and regular bows as separate weapons (since they're essentially the same). Seven drops to five if you take out the backpack weapons too (since you can't really use those as primary weapons).

There are also three ranged unarmed attacks from ancestries (plus one from a monk feat, but that's kind of prohibitive for a thaumaturge to pick up). Maybe more, it's a little harder to search for those (relevant for implement empowerment but not interruption, obviously).

[Ascalaphus]

Ok, even leaving out guns which aren't going to be an option for all thaumaturges, there are still more 1H ranged weapons than I'd expected.

But follow-up question: do melee weapons with the thrown trait work for Implement's Interruption?

Implement's Interruption wrote:

Implement's Interruption [reaction]

Evocation Magical Thaumaturge
Source Dark Archive pg. 41

Trigger The target of your Exploit Vulnerability uses a concentrate, manipulate, or move action, or leaves a square during a move action it's using.

Requirements You're holding your weapon implement and are benefiting from Exploit Vulnerability against a creature. The creature must be within your reach if you're wielding a melee weapon, or within 10 feet if you're wielding a ranged weapon.

Your weapon senses a moment of weakness and guides your hand to strike down a foe. Make a Strike against the triggering creature with your weapon implement. If your attack is a critical hit, you disrupt the triggering action. This Strike doesn't count toward your multiple attack penalty, and your multiple attack penalty doesn't apply to this Strike.

Can you use for example a trident when an enemy at 10ft away casts a spell?

We know from the the Thrown trait that a melee weapon currently being thrown counts as a ranged weapon and not a melee weapon. But what about when you're just holding it, and checking to see if you meet the requirements?

[The Raven Black]

You can use bows as a Thaumaturge with Ammunition Thaumaturgy. You just cannot boost their damage with Implement Empowerment. Works as intended IMO.

[Baarogue]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Ok, even leaving out guns which aren't going to be an option for all thaumaturges, there are still more 1H ranged weapons than I'd expected.

But follow-up question: do melee weapons with the thrown trait work for Implement's Interruption?

Implement's Interruption wrote:

Implement's Interruption [reaction]

Evocation Magical Thaumaturge
Source Dark Archive pg. 41

Trigger The target of your Exploit Vulnerability uses a concentrate, manipulate, or move action, or leaves a square during a move action it's using.

Requirements You're holding your weapon implement and are benefiting from Exploit Vulnerability against a creature. The creature must be within your reach if you're wielding a melee weapon, or within 10 feet if you're wielding a ranged weapon.

Your weapon senses a moment of weakness and guides your hand to strike down a foe. Make a Strike against the triggering creature with your weapon implement. If your attack is a critical hit, you disrupt the triggering action. This Strike doesn't count toward your multiple attack penalty, and your multiple attack penalty doesn't apply to this Strike.

Can you use for example a trident when an enemy at 10ft away casts a spell?

We know from the the Thrown trait that a melee weapon currently being thrown counts as a ranged weapon and not a melee weapon. But what about when you're just holding it, and checking to see if you meet the requirements?

I can't think of any problems, or more specifically any exploits, that allowing Implement's Interruption for thrown weapons would enable. I think it could be allowed barring the revelation of compelling evidence to the contrary. I feel this way because the ability doesn't mention anything that would imply the weapon could not function in this way if it were thrown instead of standard melee or ranged, and it sounds thematically correct that a dagger or other thrown weapon would be used in this way

[aobst128]

The Raven Black wrote:

You can use bows as a Thaumaturge with Ammunition Thaumaturgy. You just cannot boost their damage with Implement Empowerment. Works as intended IMO.

Ammunition thaumaturgy covers the reload part of weapons. Bows still need a free hand to strike with them which the feet does not cover.

[Captain Morgan]

Red Griffyn wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Ammunition Thaumaturgy lets you reload without a free hand, but bows need a free hand to simply wield them properly and strike with them, so it doesn't interact at all.

It's definitely not an oversight, the two features don't interact at all.

Its an oversight because its totally arbitrary to treat bows, and by extension any 1+ handed weapons as functionally different from a 1H weapon when you've force a feat tax to use them. 30-40ft of range for full strength damage (instead of half) is already a significant difference between having a thrown weapon build and bow build. I can make a more damaging build by using a 1D8 Chakram, grabbing point blank stance from archer or fighter, and getting STR to 18. The damage difference on a hit is 3-8 static damage over the course of L1 to L20 vs. a shortbow with no additional support (not factoring in deadly dice). That seems fair for a loss of static damage for some extra range. I don't see any sacred cows being slaughtered here.

Hopefully the person who wrote the feat/class can weigh in and Paizo can clarify it.

The person who wrote the class doesn't work directly for Paizo anymore, and Paizo isn't known for answering questions like this on the forum either. And this doesn't feel ambiguous enough to warrant the exception.

Also, the short bow has literally 3 times the range of the chakram. The point of a range weapon is not needing to get close to an enemy. The chakram's 20 foot range means to use it without penality you are basically guaranteed to be within one move action to be counterattacked.

Also also, why are you putting point blank stance on the chakram when you can also do that for the short bow?

Also also also, pumping strength to 18 on a ranged build with charisma on a key stat us rather expensive. That one point of damage. You'll need to let your charisma lag for that, which will hurt your consistency.

[Red Griffyn]

Absolute vs. relative differences make for great hyperbole. A 40 ft of difference vs. more damage. Lots of enemies have ~40 ft movement speeds and most combats occur within a 40ft radius area or cramped hallways. Creatures can run past the frontline way more easily in 2e so even as a back rank character you're usually 1 move action away anyways. Also lots of GM are quite liberal with their cover bonus to enemy ACs effectively dropping your accuracy without moving on your turn anyways. The trade off already seems fair to me.

Not only that, but whats to stop me from having my regalia (a symbol of leadership) be a bow. My PCs culture is all about bows/arrows and to be a chief of the clan you have to be holding the sacred hunting bow (think the grand huntress bow weilded by Phara Keaen in the AppleTV Foundation show). Now it is covered as 'holding other implements' not the limit of 1H weapons. As part of my hunting tribe we ascribe great power to arrows we bless every day (think Bhutan rituals). Part of my daily preparations involves going through various rituals that make my arrows esoterica that my PC will wave in the air drawing symbols of power (which take roughly 2s to draw/shoot as a fluid motion) then shoot. There is no prescriptive limits on either the regalia implement or what constitutes esoterica (its basically salt to flavour).

Now I can use the bow because I'm only holding implements and esoterica during my strike. Did I make it ambiguous enough now to warrant a response yet? You can keep saying 'they don't typically respond' but that isn't an argument for or against. I'm literally asking. If they don't respond then they don't. Otherwise community based mixed consensus rulings will carry the exact weight they should (either no weight or too much weight based on GM) and lead to table variation.

The idea of the point blank argument is to show that wielding a bow isn't going to break the game. If a standard bow user who shoots with no more investment than a L1 feat for juggling arrows is X damage. You can blow it out of the water with a build optimized for damage using thrown weapons. A lot of people keep equating bows to some arbitrary god tier weapon when in fact they already trade off tons of damage in dice size and static modifier for range (its already built into the baseline system).

Honestly I don't see the logic of your CHA statement. You could literally keep CHA at 10, take assurance Esoteric Lore and get a guaranteed failure. Or more realistically, bump it to 18 and leave it because you don't need it maxed out like other classes for many of the builds. Lots of options to scrape off attribute points and dump them into STR and CON. The value added by strength on a thrown weapon (from 12 to 18) is better than the dead levels of STR 12 and STR 16 for a composite bow. Its not worth the investment.

The PCs I want to build are already willing to take a hit to damage output to be more versatile as skill monkeys/party support. The flavour of PC I like includes many kinds of famous/legendary archers. I just don't get the incessant need by Paizo and the system to dump on bows or why the community at large is willing to step in an reinforce it. They are a far cry from the 1e rapid shot, many shot, warpriest buffed or inquisitor bane, durable adamantine arrow gattling guns they used to be. People can like the flavour of a bow user without having to get hit over the head again and again to make it work.

[Captain Morgan]

Woe unto the suffering archers feels like a weird tact to take when they are still the preferred weapon of most ranged builds and are pretty much the only game in town to get actual range without some degree of reload. Range increments are clearly something Paizo values higher than you do.

The thrown weapon build also doesn't come online until you get a returning rune and loses that edge once the returning rune prevents you from getting an elemental slot filled.

And dumping Charisma is fine if you're ok with settling for Personal Antithesis all the time, but as soon as actual weaknesses come into play you're hurting your DPR. Plus your knowledge and face abilities.

Exploit Vulnerability also already gives the most consistent static damage bonus available to archers already, so your concept still works with or without implement empowerment.

[Squiggit]

Red Griffyn wrote:

I just don't get the incessant need by Paizo and the system to dump on bows

What.

[Xenocrat]

"Stop oppressing me!" the bowman cried, as he shot everyone dead before they could do anything.

[Red Griffyn]

Right... I must be the one playing the TTRPGs wrong by wanting to use a bow and arrow without main class features stripped away for no good reason.

Toxic community much?

[Xenocrat]

The only class feature you're losing is one that isn't intended for the use case of a bow. It's compensation for a substandard combat choice (one handed melee) that you didn't choose.

Your failure to understand the good reason has nothing to do with the community.

[AlastarOG]

Red Griffyn wrote:

Right... I must be the one playing the TTRPGs wrong by wanting to use a bow and arrow without main class features stripped away for no good reason.

Toxic community much?

You're not playing wrong, but several other classes have great bow synergy.

Thaumaturge ain't ont of them.

And paizo is definitely not dumping on bows, we have a like 350 post thread that's about how bows are overpowered over everything else including guns.

With math

And excel tables and stuff.

So your comment kinda sounds like a "woe is me" comment.

[Ezekieru]

Red Griffyn wrote:

Right... I must be the one playing the TTRPGs wrong by wanting to use a bow and arrow without main class features stripped away for no good reason.

Toxic community much?

Except it's not for no good reason? It has a reason, just not one you necessarily agree with. And that's okay, make those adjustments in the games you run, or talk to your GM about those adjustments.

But the system does distinguish between 1H, 1+H, and 2H weapons, each with their own pros and cons. And in terms of weapon variety, Thaumaturges are designed squarely in the 1H weapons only.

[aobst128]

The constraints are intentional. If bows were allowed their damage bonus, it would be in a situation like investigator and how much easier they are to just use a short bow with. Thaumaturge strikes a balance between ranged and melee. They can absolutely use ranged attacks but you have to deal with the limitations like loaded weapons or thrown weapons.

[Captain Morgan]

Even with just Personal Antithesis, from levels 5-9 the Thaumaturge hits just as often as a Precision Ranger with a bow, and their bonus damage is as good or better per hit and applies to every hit instead of just one. Hunted Shot remains the Ranger's only advantage until levels 10+. Well, that and Precision getting multiplied on a crit where weakness doesn't.

Mortal Weakness will usually do more damage than Personal Antithesis, as well, so the lack of Implement Empowerment still leaves an extremely competitive archer, especially with Implement's Interruption.

[Squiggit]

Red Griffyn wrote:

Right... I must be the one playing the TTRPGs wrong by wanting to use a bow and arrow without main class features stripped away for no good reason.

No, I get wanting to play a specific idea and being annoyed when it doesn't work.

But it's also a stretch to act like Paizo and the PF2 community are somehow collaborating against you or trying to ruin bows when they're the de facto ranged option for most classes. Or to lash out at people for not agreeing with your mechanical interpretations.

[aobst128]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Even with just Personal Antithesis, from levels 5-9 the Thaumaturge hits just as often as a Precision Ranger with a bow, and their bonus damage is as good or better per hit and applies to every hit instead of just one. Hunted Shot remains the Ranger's only advantage until levels 10+. Well, that and Precision getting multiplied on a crit where weakness doesn't.

Mortal Weakness will usually do more damage than Personal Antithesis, as well, so the lack of Implement Empowerment still leaves an extremely competitive archer, especially with Implement's Interruption.

True, a thaumaturge that switches to a bow after exploit vulnerability is decent at doing damage but that leaves them without any implements. Weapon implement can't be a bow so implements interruption wouldn't work.

[SaveVersus]

Ok, so clearly the majority here has a different opinion than you do; after rereading the section, I'm inclined to believe that the Weapon Implement doesn't apply to bows either*, but maybe there's a way to workshop this?

So far, I haven't seen a post from the authors unless it was to thank people for enjoying the work, so I don't expect to see a reply on that front. These forums also seem to explode in the sheer number of posts and I have trouble keeping up sometimes. I tend to bow out once I see something like (86 new), so I wouldn't be surprised if they see something over 100 posts and decide to not chip in.

----

You and your group seem like you're okay with using a bow as your Weapon Implement, so just go with it? Doesn't seem too far out there that you could wiggle your bow in a figure 8 patter before firing, so that should satisfy Implement's Empowerment.
I'd probably drop your arrow/esoterica idea because I don't think it was needed and the description for esoterica seems to indicate things like knick-knacks and other things of "immaterial value" (and arrows are almost always useful).

If not that, have you considered homebrewing a new Bow Implement? I'm sure you'd rather not (I don't always like homebrewing), but it's probably not that difficult considering the number of implements you can pull examples from. You could largely just copy the Weapon one, then make some range-specific bebefits.

*: If my argument for a ruling is along the lines of "reading between the lines" (I doesn't say I can't , or it doesn't not not say it), then I feel I might be trying too heard to shoehorn something. I worry about what a rule says, not what it fails to say.

[Captain Morgan]

aobst128 wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Even with just Personal Antithesis, from levels 5-9 the Thaumaturge hits just as often as a Precision Ranger with a bow, and their bonus damage is as good or better per hit and applies to every hit instead of just one. Hunted Shot remains the Ranger's only advantage until levels 10+. Well, that and Precision getting multiplied on a crit where weakness doesn't.

Mortal Weakness will usually do more damage than Personal Antithesis, as well, so the lack of Implement Empowerment still leaves an extremely competitive archer, especially with Implement's Interruption.

True, a thaumaturge that switches to a bow after exploit vulnerability is decent at doing damage but that leaves them without any implements. Weapon implement can't be a bow so implements interruption wouldn't work.

Pretty sure you need that first level ammo feat, but with it you can keep knock arrows with a hand holding the implement. I did forget the bow couldn't be used as an implement itself, though, so no Interruption there.

[aobst128]

Captain Morgan wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Even with just Personal Antithesis, from levels 5-9 the Thaumaturge hits just as often as a Precision Ranger with a bow, and their bonus damage is as good or better per hit and applies to every hit instead of just one. Hunted Shot remains the Ranger's only advantage until levels 10+. Well, that and Precision getting multiplied on a crit where weakness doesn't.

Mortal Weakness will usually do more damage than Personal Antithesis, as well, so the lack of Implement Empowerment still leaves an extremely competitive archer, especially with Implement's Interruption.

True, a thaumaturge that switches to a bow after exploit vulnerability is decent at doing damage but that leaves them without any implements. Weapon implement can't be a bow so implements interruption wouldn't work.

Pretty sure you need that first level ammo feat, but with it you can keep knock arrows with a hand holding the implement. I did forget the bow couldn't be used as an implement itself, though, so no Interruption there.

Thaumaturge ammunition covers the reload part of weapons. Bows still need 2 hands to make strikes, which isn't covered by the feat. It probably doesn't break anything but the intention looks like just for loaded weapons like crossbows and firearms. The flavor text mentions arrows so I get that will be a common interpretation but I think they meant bolts.

[aobst128]

One fun thing it looks like you could do with ammunition thaumaturgy is throw shurikens with a hand occupied by an implement.

[Cordell Kintner]

aobst128 wrote:

One fun thing it looks like you could do with ammunition thaumaturgy is throw shurikens with a hand occupied by an implement.

While you can reload using the hand the hand you're holding your implement with, you can't Strike with it, so that doesn't work at all how you think it would.

[aobst128]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

One fun thing it looks like you could do with ammunition thaumaturgy is throw shurikens with a hand occupied by an implement.

While you can reload using the hand the hand you're holding your implement with, you can't Strike with it, so that doesn't work at all how you think it would.

We just need a shuriken gun and we're good. Yeah, wouldn't work like that but It would be fun. Hopefully we get some support for shurikens in the future so we can utilize it's reload 0 since currently, they're just worse throwing knives once you start putting runes on one so you need a returning rune, making reload 0 completely irrelevant

[AlastarOG]

aobst128 wrote:

Cordell Kintner wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

One fun thing it looks like you could do with ammunition thaumaturgy is throw shurikens with a hand occupied by an implement.

While you can reload using the hand the hand you're holding your implement with, you can't Strike with it, so that doesn't work at all how you think it would.

We just need a shuriken gun and we're good. Yeah, wouldn't work like that but It would be fun. Hopefully we get some support for shurikens in the future so we can utilize it's reload 0 since currently, they're just worse throwing knives once you start putting runes on one so you need a returning rune, making reload 0 completely irrelevant

This is one GM's judgment but I'd definitely let you reflavor an air repeater as a shuriken gun !

[graystone]

aobst128 wrote:

Cordell Kintner wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

One fun thing it looks like you could do with ammunition thaumaturgy is throw shurikens with a hand occupied by an implement.

While you can reload using the hand the hand you're holding your implement with, you can't Strike with it, so that doesn't work at all how you think it would.

We just need a shuriken gun and we're good. Yeah, wouldn't work like that but It would be fun. Hopefully we get some support for shurikens in the future so we can utilize it's reload 0 since currently, they're just worse throwing knives once you start putting runes on one so you need a returning rune, making reload 0 completely irrelevant

LOL We DO have one: the Blade Launcher! Too bad it's 2 handed... And loses reload 0... And every trait except uncommon... but it does get a range increment of 40'! :(

[aobst128]

graystone wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Cordell Kintner wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

One fun thing it looks like you could do with ammunition thaumaturgy is throw shurikens with a hand occupied by an implement.

While you can reload using the hand the hand you're holding your implement with, you can't Strike with it, so that doesn't work at all how you think it would.

We just need a shuriken gun and we're good. Yeah, wouldn't work like that but It would be fun. Hopefully we get some support for shurikens in the future so we can utilize it's reload 0 since currently, they're just worse throwing knives once you start putting runes on one so you need a returning rune, making reload 0 completely irrelevant

LOL We DO have one: the Blade Launcher! Too bad it's 2 handed... And loses reload 0... And every trait except uncommon... but it does get a range increment of 40'! :(

Yes, I remember that thing. Man, why was it not it's own weapon? We already have precedent for a weapon that fires a different weapon with the thunder sling.

Could have been at least as good as a crossbow but in either the dart or knife group.

[aobst128]

As a funny consequence of the blade launcher's odd mechanics, a rogue has no problems firing a dagger from it but loading a shuriken makes it too difficult to fire.

[Squiggit]

15 gold premium to knock your crossbow down two die sizes and reduce its range by 80 feet?

It's not a weapon either so you have to rune each piece of 'ammunition' separately.

... What was this item made for?

[aobst128]

Squiggit wrote:

15 gold premium to knock your crossbow down two die sizes and reduce its range by 80 feet?

It's not a weapon either so you have to rune each piece of 'ammunition' separately.

... What was this item made for?

That's easy, it's meant to be fired at your party rogue after he's been disarmed of his knife.

[aobst128]

The bomb launcher as least has some use case since it triples bombs range. Blade launcher is just sad though.

[Unicore]

Squiggit wrote:

15 gold premium to knock your crossbow down two die sizes and reduce its range by 80 feet?

It's not a weapon either so you have to rune each piece of 'ammunition' separately.

... What was this item made for?

It is so the enemies can have a t-shirt launcher to throw their treasure to the party from across a small pit, and maybe still be able to run away with their lives.

[The Raven Black]

I might accept bow as a non-weapon implement (Regalia, for example).

I don't think it breaks any RAW.

[SaveVersus]

The Raven Black wrote:

I might accept bow as a non-weapon implement (Regalia, for example).

I don't think it breaks any RAW.

I think the OP is more interested in making use of Implement's Empowerment more than the type of implement though.

Although they might also not prefer to have a weapon with non-combat benefits.

I do like this idea in an Excalibur sort of way, however. Like, it's just a normal weapon, but the belief people attach to it gives it power.

Does your implement have to remain mundane? For example, say my regalia is a sword that's been passed down for generations. Could I add runes to it and keep it as my regalia?

[The Raven Black]

SaveVersus wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I might accept bow as a non-weapon implement (Regalia, for example).

I don't think it breaks any RAW.

I think the OP is more interested in making use of Implement's Empowerment more than the type of implement though.

Although they might also not prefer to have a weapon with non-combat benefits.

I do like this idea in an Excalibur sort of way, however. Like, it's just a normal weapon, but the belief people attach to it gives it power.

Does your implement have to remain mundane? For example, say my regalia is a sword that's been passed down for generations. Could I add runes to it and keep it as my regalia?

Thankfully for Weapon implement Thaumaturges, there is nothing preventing you from switching to a magical implement.

[Johannason]

So it's consensus that the feat Ammunition Thaumaturge only allows for the use of Slings, Hand Crossbows, and I guess Blowguns unless you also find a feat for Firearm proficiency?
And "Just use thrown weapons, lol" is the answer to "why does this feat suck RAW?".

Do I have that right?

[aobst128]

Johannason wrote:

So it's consensus that the feat Ammunition Thaumaturge only allows for the use of Slings, Hand Crossbows, and I guess Blowguns unless you also find a feat for Firearm proficiency?

And "Just use thrown weapons, lol" is the answer to "why does this feat suck RAW?".

Do I have that right?

It works for firearms as well. Doesn't have anything to do with proficiency. Just lets you reload with your hands occupied with implements. Makes thaumaturge actually a good use case for firearms because of their high consistent damage so even without fatal crits, you still dish out a fair bit of damage.

[shroudb]

Johannason wrote:

So it's consensus that the feat Ammunition Thaumaturge only allows for the use of Slings, Hand Crossbows, and I guess Blowguns unless you also find a feat for Firearm proficiency?

And "Just use thrown weapons, lol" is the answer to "why does this feat suck RAW?".

Do I have that right?

It works just fine with firearms, firearms work greatly with thaumaturge.

So it's actually quite good.

[HammerJack]

I think there was a mistaken assumption there that firearms are a separate proficiency category.

[Johannason]

My GM is not allowing firearms. Also firearms are Uncommon, which makes gaining access to them as a Thaumaturge during character creation... interesting.
I asked a very specific question. Yes, I see that the feat works with firearms. I thought I made that clear by the way my question was framed in the first place. But I don't care.

Discounting firearms, the feat ONLY permits the use of Hand Crossbow, Sling, and Blowgun, as these are the ONLY non-firearm, one-handed, ranged weapons with the Reload trait. Is that correct?