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It's either a case of AP designer didn't know the rules, or a case of rules team decides to change the rules after the AP had come out.Isn't Scrying referenced in Skulls and Shackles as being sufficient (and in most cases necessary) to Teleport to the deck of a moving ship?
Doesn't 'Scrying doesn't give a location' invalidate that that?
Post 38:
Mmm. Scrying someone on a ship then teleporting to them works, but scrying someone anywhere else doesn't?
Lets just break any notion of precedence yeah?
Dimension Door, Greater Teleport, Teleport, Teleportation Circle: Because ships are constantly in motion, the caster of spells of the teleportation subschool must have line of sight to teleport onto a ship. Otherwise, a caster must scry upon a particular ship first, then immediately teleport to the scryed destination. Any delay in casting means the ship has moved from its scryed location and the spell fails.In this instance the writer don't even speak of the scrying spell. he speak of scrying the ship and then he speak of the scryed location.
The problem is that the action of scrying something (with whatever spell you have that work) is often confused with the scrying spell.
Another form of the "what is the meaning of level" discussion.If you look the d20SRD hypertext teleport, you find: “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic".
That is the strongest argument about scrying (the spell) and frying working, as someone has added to "possibly using magic" the part "such as scrying".
Currently I don't have my 3 and 3.5 books at hand. Someone can cheek the text in them?
(note that in the 3.0 version of the game you had a scry skill and scrying was the action of using that skill)
“Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic.
I'll note that in the 3.5 SRD there are 3 spells of the [scrying] subschool, Only one of which (using the Scrying(spell) doesn't qualify rule). The could feasibly be used is Arcane Eye. However this is inconsistent with the Teleport description as it mentions "Studying for an hour" which arcane eye is incapable of allowing due to its duration. 'Greater Scrying' does however have a duration of Hours/Level, but it does not have any additional visual range (over and above normal scrying). Therefore it is reasonable to assume that it is indeed referencing the Scrying spell.
By extension I make the inference that the Pathfinder teleport spell description is also referencing the Scrying spell.
Tangent to that regarding the "scry upon a particular ship" and "scryed location", I can find exactly 2 spells of the [scrying] subschool (Riversight and Arcane Eye) that could be used to preform the task of Scrying a ship or location. The first of which requires line of sight to initially place the sensor so most of the time you can just see the ship and the second of which would not work in the context of S&S due to it being limited to a river and non salt waters.
Note: Track ship would not work as it gives you not visual image of the location just a point on a map.
I assume the writer of those rules was not referencing a non-existant means and they were in fact referencing the Scrying spell
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This discussion is moot once yoi have greater teleport right? Greater has like, no restrictions
It has its specific set of restrictions.
Teleport, Greater
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 7
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
I think I could still make a case that RAW, scry & fry doesn't work with Greater Teleport. The spell works like teleport except where otherwise stated. The 'you must know the location' clause is not specifically excluded. You don't have to have seen the location, but if you haven't you need a reliable description. Scrying doesn't say it gives you a reliable description.
Ultimate Intrigue clears this up, and though the option isn't called "answered in book", "answered in errata" seemed the most accurate of the buttons available, since it wasn't a FAQ, it's not no response required, and it's not question unclear.
That's very nice, but afaik UI would not normally be considered overruling the PH.
Why not simply FAQ this? Scavion's post is pretty clear.
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“Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic.I'll note that in the 3.5 SRD there are 3 spells of the [scrying] subschool, Only one of which (using the Scrying(spell) doesn't qualify rule). The could feasibly be used is Arcane Eye. However this is inconsistent with the Teleport description as it mentions "Studying for an hour" which arcane eye is incapable of allowing due to its duration. 'Greater Scrying' does however have a duration of Hours/Level, but it does not have any additional visual range (over and above normal scrying). Therefore it is reasonable to assume that it is indeed referencing the Scrying spell.
By extension I make the inference that the Pathfinder teleport spell description is also referencing the Scrying spell.
Tangent to that regarding the "scry upon a particular ship" and "scryed location", I can find exactly 2 spells of the [scrying] subschool (Riversight and Arcane Eye) that could be used to preform the task of Scrying a ship or location. The first of which requires line of sight to initially place the sensor so most of the time you can just see the ship and the second of which would not work in the context of S&S due to it being limited to a river and non salt waters.
Note: Track ship would not work as it gives you not visual image of the location just a point on a map.
I assume the writer of those rules was not referencing a non-existant means and they were in fact referencing the Scrying spell
You seem to have missed the quintessential spell to scry a location:
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Divination (Scrying)
Level: Brd 3, Knowledge 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: Magical sensor
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: NoClairaudience/clairvoyance creates an invisible magical sensor at a specific location that enables you to hear or see (your choice) almost as if you were there. You don’t need line of sight or line of effect, but the locale must be known—a place familiar to you or an obvious one. Once you have selected the locale, the sensor doesn’t move, but you can rotate it in all directions to view the area as desired. Unlike other scrying spells, this spell does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it. If the chosen locale is magically dark, you see nothing. If it is naturally pitch black, you can see in a 10-foot radius around the center of the spell’s effect. Clairaudience/clairvoyance functions only on the plane of existence you are currently occupying.
Arcane FocusA small horn (for hearing) or a glass eye (for seeing).
“Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour.
It don't say "in one go", and actually it support the idea that studying the location looking it multiple times is allowed, as it say " you’ve been there often".
An interesting thing is that the possibility to study the room magically and get the "Studied carefully” level of familiarity has been removed in Pathfinder. Now you can get only the "Viewed once" level.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance requires the local be known or obvious meaning if you can put the sensor down you can probably already see there/teleport. In a addition Clairaudience/Clairvoyance has the exact same viewing radius as Scrying, so why would Scrying not function if Clairaudience/Clairvoyance does?
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Clairaudience/Clairvoyance requires the local be known or obvious meaning if you can put the sensor down you can probably already see there/teleport. In a addition Clairaudience/Clairvoyance has the exact same viewing radius as Scrying, so why would Scrying not function if Clairaudience/Clairvoyance does?
Not what I was saying. Simply Clairvoyance is the scrying spell to look a location. And "On the other side of this wall/door" is a perfect location for Clairvoyance and totally unavailable to teleport if you don't have seen what is on the other side of the wall. Even with greater teleport you would be unable to go there without some kind of information.
Fair point.
Although it seems extremely redundant and wasteful considering Dimension Door can do the exact same thing using 1 spell slot lower than teleport, within the same range limitation as Clairvoyance.
UI specifically states under the Teleport spell that the destination must be known and the general layout must be known as well.
Ahh so layout!=destination. Gotcha.
UI specifically states under the Teleport spell that the destination must be known and the general layout must be known as well.
Then why not add that to the spell's descriptor?
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Then why not add that to the spell's descriptor?UI specifically states under the Teleport spell that the destination must be known and the general layout must be known as well.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.
I've decided that magical senses are different. If you scry on someone, right next to them becomes a location you can teleport to. This is quickly scrambled by their being on a different planet, ship, or flying castle. You go into combat time and must teleport the next round after scrying or the opportunity is lost. While A scrys, B can be casting haste and C can start their bard song. All of them can be teleported together the next round by or with the scryer.
This is similar to how you can see glitterdust in the dark, and possibly in some of the darkness spells. Color spray also works in darkness. It's magically visible. Somehow, when someone has mirror image up, there are 3 images and one actual character, standing on a 5 by 5 square, and you can hit only one of them at a time.
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Teleport explicitly calls out scrying as providing sufficient information to allow you to teleport as "viewed once".I think I could still make a case that RAW, scry & fry doesn't work with Greater Teleport. The spell works like teleport except where otherwise stated. The 'you must know the location' clause is not specifically excluded. You don't have to have seen the location, but if you haven't you need a reliable description. Scrying doesn't say it gives you a reliable description.
As said several times in this thread, it is not clear at all if "scrying" in the level of familiarity description refer to the spell Scrying, to the divination (scrying) class of spells and powers or to the general english meaning of scrying (there are a few ways of magically scrying an area that have little or nothing to do with the scrying sub school of magic).
As said several times in this thread, it is not clear at all if "scrying" in the level of familiarity description refer to the spell Scrying, to the divination (scrying) class of spells and powers or to the general english meaning of scrying (there are a few ways of magically scrying an area that have little or nothing to do with the scrying sub school of magic).The PRD links directly to the scrying spell. Seems pretty conclusive to me although I would happily include stuff like Clairvoyance as well.
Never noticed the official PRD links the spell like that. I guess we now have to ask, how "official" should such links from the PRD be considered? Odds are that was just put there by some helpful IT person and not by the design team. But being an official source, it carries enough weight to not be completely ignorable.
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Teleport explicitly calls out scrying as providing sufficient information to allow you to teleport as "viewed once".As said several times in this thread, it is not clear at all if "scrying" in the level of familiarity description refer to the spell Scrying, to the divination (scrying) class of spells and powers or to the general english meaning of scrying (there are a few ways of magically scrying an area that have little or nothing to do with the scrying sub school of magic).
Given that the link from Teleport is to the scrying spell, and if you read the scrying spell, it makes no reference to being able to view anything other than the creature itself and 10' around it, which grants limited knowledge at best.
Now, if your character can somehow identify the location of the area 10' around the target, then you have enough of a general layout, but actually identifying the location from the limited viewing area is the trick -- and likely up to GM adjudication.
As an example of this, in the Hunger Games: Mockingjay part 2, President Snow is on television, who's viewpoint only shows a small part of his surroundings as he is speaking live. Peta (sp?) is able to recognize this location as the "throne room" in the Presidential Palace because he had been there before.
This would be enough to teleport there, imo. However, prior knowledge was necessary to lock down the location.
Note that a false surroundings could easily be fabricated to make the "scry and fry" tactic useless.
Never noticed the official PRD links the spell like that. I guess we now have to ask, how "official" should such links from the PRD be considered? Odds are that was just put there by some helpful IT person and not by the design team. But being an official source, it carries enough weight to not be completely ignorable.As said several times in this thread, it is not clear at all if "scrying" in the level of familiarity description refer to the spell Scrying, to the divination (scrying) class of spells and powers or to the general english meaning of scrying (there are a few ways of magically scrying an area that have little or nothing to do with the scrying sub school of magic).The PRD links directly to the scrying spell. Seems pretty conclusive to me although I would happily include stuff like Clairvoyance as well.
I would say that a simple hyperlink shouldn't infer any sort of meaning to the word.
Scrying (the activity) *can* get you the right information in order to teleport.
Scrying (the spell) does not give sufficient information to provide both layout and location (gives 10' of layout, not location).
I would say that a simple hyperlink shouldn't infer any sort of meaning to the word.
No, that's exactly what a hyperlink does. Otherwise, why would the hyperlink link to a spell that has nothing to do with the text? It could have just as easily have hyperlinked to the scrying section of the magic page like so, <Scrying>.
Scrying (the activity) *can* get you the right information in order to teleport.
But as shown above, Scrying isn't what you are linked to in the teleport spell.
Scrying (the spell) does not give sufficient information to provide both layout and location (gives 10' of layout, not location).
According the spell Teleport, it somehow does.
Now, if you want to argue that inclusion of the hyperlink was a mistake, then you may be right. But, it remains an official source, until clarified.
I would say that a simple hyperlink shouldn't infer any sort of meaning to the word.No, that's exactly what a hyperlink does. Otherwise, why would the hyperlink link to a spell that has nothing to do with the text? It could have just as easily have hyperlinked to the scrying section of the magic page like so, <Scrying>.
Scrying (the activity) *can* get you the right information in order to teleport.But as shown above, Scrying isn't what you are linked to in the teleport spell.
Scrying (the spell) does not give sufficient information to provide both layout and location (gives 10' of layout, not location).According the spell Teleport, it somehow does.
Now, if you want to argue that inclusion of the hyperlink was a mistake, then you may be right. But, it remains an official source, until clarified.
Basic grammar rules state otherwise, it states, specifically "magic such as scrying", not "the scrying spell". It infers that it is talking about a category of magic not a specific spell.
A print book doesn't have a hyperlink. That only exists in electronic forms of documentation, so cannot logically be inferred as definitive.
If you follow logically from your conclusion, no other spell other than Scrying and Greater scrying can provide enough information for a "scry and fry", as it links only one spell and doesn't reference any others.
But that is obviously not the case.
Basic grammar rules state otherwise, it states, specifically "magic such as scrying", not "the scrying spell". It infers that it is talking about a category of magic not a specific spell.
There is no such basic grammar rule. The fact is that human language is often far from as explicit as you seem to be stating. "Magic such as scrying" could just as easily be interpreted to mean "Scrying and other such magics". The addition of the hyperlink in the official PRD lends weight to the interpretation "Scrying and other such magics" being the correct one.
The addition of the hyperlink in the official PRD lends weight to the interpretation...
Not in the case of the PRD. I strongly believe the hyperlinks were created by some kind of hunt-link-word code, not by people, because some of them link in circles, some of them link to the correct word in the wrong context, and so on.
Hell, just do a simple search for something and you generally have to scroll down for several pages to find it, if you ever do at all.
There's a reason almost everyone uses the d20PFSRD instead of the official PRD.
Not in the case of the PRD. I strongly believe the hyperlinks were created by some kind of hunt-link-word code, not by people, because some of them link in circles, some of them link to the correct word in the wrong context, and so on.
Hell, just do a simple search for something and you generally have to scroll down for several pages to find it, if you ever do at all.
There's a reason almost everyone uses the d20PFSRD instead of the official PRD.
You can argue that an official source is in error, but it's still an official source. I really wouldn't be surprised if it it did turn out to be in error in this case, but until it is corrected, that is what we have.
The d20pfsrd doesn't really factor into this, as it has nothing to do with being official. Personally, I use the archivesofnethys, but that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion either.
Melkiador, if you are reading "magic such as scrying" to mean specifically the scrying spell, then you are also saying that only the scrying spell (and perhaps it's greater version) are the *only* spells that can enable the use of teleport.
Is this the case? Yes or no.
Not in the case of the PRD. I strongly believe the hyperlinks were created by some kind of hunt-link-word code, not by people, because some of them link in circles, some of them link to the correct word in the wrong context, and so on.Hell, just do a simple search for something and you generally have to scroll down for several pages to find it, if you ever do at all.
There's a reason almost everyone uses the d20PFSRD instead of the official PRD.
Not just in the case of the PRD, but also the PDF version of the CRB. Hyperlinks are done via word search mechanics, not via any human interaction -- it would be far to tedious for anyone to do, and thus has a measure of inaccuracy.
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The d20pfsrd doesn't really factor into this, as it has nothing to do with being official.
We're talking about a game. Or, more accurately, a second- or third-generation knockoff of a game. It's hard to take words like "official" seriously, in that context.
Melkiador, if you are reading "magic such as scrying" to mean specifically the scrying spell, then you are also saying that only the scrying spell (and perhaps it's greater version) are the *only* spells that can enable the use of teleport.
Is this the case? Yes or no.
"Magic such as scrying" could just as easily be interpreted as "Scrying and other such magics". This would be like saying, "You can't normally be seen when using magic such as Invisibility". Or "You can fly when using magic such as Fly".
Melkiador,
The word "scrying" in that sentence is not capitalized. So, it is not referencing a specific spell (a noun which would have to be capitalized). -- which you did properly in your previous post.
Moreover, it is stating "magic such as", which reads as a categorization, not a specific spell.
So, the more likely interpretation would be that in order to facilitate teleport, you would need to use said category of spells according to their own definitions -- and the scrying spell does not in and of itself qualify.
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Melkiador,
The word "scrying" in that sentence is not capitalized. So, it is not referencing a specific spell (a noun which would have to be capitalized). -- which you did properly in your previous post.
Moreover, it is stating "magic such as", which reads as a categorization, not a specific spell.
So, the more likely interpretation would be that in order to facilitate teleport, you would need to use said category of spells according to their own definitions -- and the scrying spell does not in and of itself qualify.
I wish there were such a capitilization standard in the rules, but in reality they are all over the place. For instance the Daylight spell has this line:
"Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness."| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let's take a quick look at other spells that use similar language.
Create Demiplane, Lesser:
"Creatures can only enter the plane by the use of planar travel magic such as astral projection, etherealness, or plane shift."
Nature's Ravages:
"In addition to hindering mundane autopsies and investigations, this spell may effectively prohibit the use of raise dead on the target, though more powerful magic such as resurrection or true resurrection may still work."
Out of Sight:
"The spell’s duration listed above measures how long the out of sight effect lasts on you, but the memory alteration is instantaneous and can be reversed only by magic such as modify memory."
Teleport:
"“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying."
So, every other time the phrase "magic such as X" is used, X is referencing a specific spell. It would be highly questionable to say that Teleport's text should be treated differently.
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There's a reason almost everyone uses the d20PFSRD instead of the official PRD.
Too bad d20PFSRD also hyperlinks to scrying.
I didn't say I used it!
So, it is not referencing a specific spell (a noun which would have to be capitalized).
P.S. The standard ever since at least 3.0 was for spell names to be italicized, rather than capitalized. Feat and skill names get capitalized.
So, it is not referencing a specific spell (a noun which would have to be capitalized).P.S. The standard ever since at least 3.0 was for spell names to be italicized, rather than capitalized. Feat and skill names get capitalized.
I hadn't realized that. It appears that "scrying" is indeed italicized in the Teleport spell.
"Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness."
If I were writing that sentence and for some reason couldn't rename anything, I'd have said:
Daylight dispels any [darkness] spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness, that exists within the same area of effect.
Selective use of brackets for descriptors, maintaining standards such as italicizing spell names, etc. can all help. Not using the same name for several different things is also a plus.
But we're dealing with game designers, not technical writers here. It's kind of necessary to adjust your expectations, in light of that.
Selective use of brackets for descriptors, maintaining standards such as italicizing spell names, etc. can all help. Not using the same name for several different things is also a plus.
But we're dealing with game designers, not technical writers here. It's kind of necessary to adjust your expectations, in light of that.
I mostly agree with this, but we also have to remember that the books are still based on dead tree publishing, so text count is a huge consideration. Sometimes text may be written very explicitly by a designer, but then edited down to vagueness by an editor trying to make everything fit on a page.
So, every other time the phrase "magic such as X" is used, X is referencing a specific spell. It would be highly questionable to say that Teleport's text should be treated differently.
Ok, I stand corrected, apparently the nomenclature standard is different than standard grammar rules. In the PDF version of the CRB that I have, the scrying word is indeed italicized -- so it is referencing a specific spell.
If Paizo is indeed attempting to re-interpret RAW to be RAI, then a FAQ is definitely needed.
I mostly agree with this, but we also have to remember that the books are still based on dead tree publishing, so text count is a huge consideration. Sometimes text may be written very explicitly by a designer, but then edited down to vagueness by an editor trying to make everything fit on a page.
Agreed, however, this still doesn't excuse the reticence of the game developers putting out errata further explaining the rules so that RAW matches RAI.
There seems to be a lot of reluctance to do this, officially speaking. Why, I cannot say.
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Looking further into Ulimate Intrigue, under "Scrying" (the spell, specifically): It states that in and of itself, it is not enough to facilitate a teleport. In order to facilitate a teleport, the subject of the scry would need to move around enough to give a general layout of the area (likely DM's determination), and --- and this is the important part -- the spell doesn't directly indicate location. The PCs must use contextual clues to figure this out, unless they already know where the target is."
So, this jives with the Mockingjay example I gave above.
So, the question is: Is Ultimate Intrigue overriding/modifying the RAW of the CRB? The section of UI is described as being "Advice" (aka RAI).
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Well, yes, haven't they as much as said so? None of the egregious rules loopholes were closed during the transition from 3.5 because, "Well, we just don't play that way" and "Well, that's what the DM is for" and so on.
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Looking further into Ulimate Intrigue, under "Scrying" (the spell, specifically): It states that in and of itself, it is not enough to facilitate a teleport. In order to facilitate a teleport, the subject of the scry would need to move around enough to give a general layout of the area (likely DM's determination), and --- and this is the important part -- the spell doesn't directly indicate location. The PCs must use contextual clues to figure this out, unless they already know where the target is."
So, this jives with the Mockingjay example I gave above.
So, the question is: Is Ultimate Intrigue overriding/modifying the RAW of the CRB? The section of UI is described as being "Advice" (aka RAI).
The CRB description says that the scrying spell and other similar magic are capable of giving you enough visual info to count as being viewed once, and UI doesn't disagree with that at all (in fact, it specifically says it could). But that's the only mention of scrying there; the CRB doesn't say that casting the spell overrides needing to have a clear idea of the location as well. I would say that since the CRB is silent (and even IMO slightly implies the same thing as UI is saying), there's no reason not to use UI here, but certainly in any game where the players and GM prefer scry and fry, I see no reason not to just run it that way instead!
Slightly off-topic, but I think worth asking in this thread:
Scrying allows a Will save.
If the target makes that save, is he/she/it aware of the attempt?
Nothing I'm aware of in the rules says one way or another whether you're aware of spells you resisted if they're attempted at a range beyond your Perception.
Our house-ruled group has always played, "You know when someone targets you with a spell and you successfully resist it."
And that simple choice has pretty much eliminated scry-n-fry because you can bet the BBEG will make at least the first couple of Will saves, or he's not a BBEG worth his salt...
Does UI further clarify what constitutes the layout of an area? Is "picture here, bed there and window on the side" enough? I'm afraid the snippet alone is merely enough to make things harder to rule rather than easier.
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A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.
From the "Succeeding on a Saving Throw" section here.
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.From the "Succeeding on a Saving Throw" section here.
Right. Exactly. "I am a BBEG, and I feel a hostile force or tingle."
My BBEGs take this as a precursor to an attack, and start their buffing and prep.
They're a paranoid lot, my BBEGs.