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Pretty much. If the villain is smart, they will ward their lair with Disjunction traps, contingent on unauthorized teleporters. Throw in 20+ traps of enervation, contingent on the disjuction trap going off (and the PCs just got their death wards dispelled, so...)
And of course, there are an awful lot of abjurations that prevent scrying that any smart villain can get hold of. Even if they can't cast spells themselves, magic items exist for a reason.
Scry and Die doesn't work in most games. Not because of a rule against it, as it is clearly built into the rules, but because it is really, really easy to counter. Somewhat ironically, it is easier for the villains to counter it than the PCs, since
a)the villain's base-of-operation can be warded more heavily than the mobile party
b)The BBEG(s) is usually a higher level than the PCs, and can overcome their abjurations (e.g., nondetection) more easily than they can overcome the BBEG's abjurations. At least until the PCs are high enough to have mind blank continuously, which isn't until high levels. And of course, the BBEG gets there first.Or use a moving fortress(as mentioned before)
Or live in a pocket dimension(not on the material plane)
** spoiler omitted **...
Or...or..or. But BBEG in AP do none of these. So, either it's not necessary in Golarion, all the BBEG are really stupid or DM's have to change the AP.
I think it's A.
Not to necromancy my old thread, but remember Strong Magical or Physical effects can prevent a teleport from working.
Teleport Reasonable Ruling
Without going into to much DM Fiat, Detect Magic defines a strong magical effect as 7th level or higher. Also if they are Scrying on an Illusion they should get False Destination automatically. Just my 2 cents.
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In 1st/2nd edition, the Scry spell only existed in the form of a Crystal Ball, and it had risks if you used it beyond the allotted durations (lose one INT and insane if fail your save). Even then, Teleportation carried a risk of death (8% if viewed once to go low and +17% to shoot high, which could be death if you ported into a solid object). Assuming a 10' ceiling, that's a solid 15% risk of dead dead dead for the caster and his entire party. (Clairvoyance and Clairaudience required you to focus on a location, not a creature, and could be foiled by metal in the way).
3rd Edition and Pathfinder opened up a can of worms by removing the real penalties of "scry and die" by making it easily accessible and risk-free. In the old days, you did it out of desperation and the risk of death was high enough to deter it as an every-day tactic. In the new edition, you might shoot off target without risk, and whoopity doo you try again later. When "scry and die" became the new favorite player tactic, designers created all sorts of spells to foil the tactic, but this hasn't cured the original spirit behind the combination...only break the glass in case of emergency.
I have provided (above) a way to interpret the spell in spirit of the original game design. Teleport abuse is a complaint that crosses over into 4th Edition as well, and even if it's not a FAQ issue, it should be addressed. Some part of me misses the days of 1st and 2nd edition. There was far less rules wrangling and examination of every action as if a legal document to be held up in a court of law.
Scrying is blocked by a cheap, nonmagical substance that anyone can afford well before teleporting becomes a big deal.
...and none of the published materials mention the entire world being covered in lead, and don't deal with the effects of lead-based paint being so prevalent (given its toxicity), and don't explain why it's still so cheap if it's in such high demand. Your solution isn't a good one for a campaign with any internal consistency.
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.and none of the published materials mention the entire world being covered in lead, and don't deal with the effects of lead-based paint being so prevalent (given its toxicity), and don't explain why it's still so cheap if it's in such high demand. Your solution isn't a good one for a campaign with any internal consistency.
Right. Not to mention that afaik, none of the APs are set up that way.
Or the "common" trap involving disjunction and 20 enervations rays that is always in the same location of the BEEG.
I suppose even his latrine is trapped that way.
That is about the only way a good scry and fry could actually work. You have to do something to lure the BBEG out of his safe zone, then you have a chance. At that point, you are playing an interesting game of cat and mouse in which the goal isn't to Scry and Fry, but to create conditions where Scry and Fry becomes an option.
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A lead-line castle isn't feasible or healthy, but it ignores my focus on the historical progression of "scry and die." Here's the recap of "Viewed Once" by edition:
1st Ed: Description conflicts by stating spell transports caster to "well-known destination" but then offers a "Never Seen" option. Describes "very familiar" as a place one has been to ("actual proximity") and says "lesser known areas" seen "magically or from a distance" increase error. Ambiguity as to whether spell requires one has been to the location and is visualizing it from a distance; for example a mountaintop you can barely see 10 miles away, cannot visualize your landing spot so may count as "never seen" despite fact you can "see" it. No confusion one can teleport to places they've already been. Crystal Ball only way to Scry. Abuse tempered by decent risk of death.
- Crystal Ball basic version is vision only. Audio, ESP, and Telepathy variants exist. You can view a person or object. Only spells cast through the Ball are detect magic/alignment. Read literally the visual is only the target itself and not the surrounding area, and there is no provision for seeing anything more than the target. This is the position taken unofficially by James Jacob in his Q&A posts - you see the target only.
Dungeon #33: Unofficial errata, author notes this is not endorsed by Gygax. Says he'd allow Crystal Ball to count as "viewed once." This conflicts with the description of Crystal Ball as seeing the target only, hence why likely not endorsed by Gygax.
Unearthed Arcana, 1985: Introduces Teleport w/o Error and Magic Mirror (aka Scry spell). Description of planar travel requires you've been there before in order to count as "studied carefully." First requirement that visualizing a destination through scrying would not be enough. Magic Mirror operates like Crystal Ball, no discussion of seeing an area around the target.
2nd Ed: Keeps "well known destination" as spell criteria, changes "actual proximity" requirement to "previous proximity," still ambiguity as to lesser known areas, same language on rest of spell as before.
3rd Ed: Removes "never seen." Language is no longer "well known" but rather "designated destination." Requires "clear mental image" of layout and location. Brings up point that while you can "see" a place with a Crystal Ball, does that mean you automatically know the location? One cave can look like another. "Viewed Once" defined as "seen, possibly using magic." Spell read literally suggests sight is enough. T w/o E removes planar travel. Removes auto-death risk.
- Scrying modified to include 10 feet around a target. First option for Scry and Die introduced since viewing an area, not just the object.
Pathfinder: Mimics 3E, "Viewed Once" adds language "such as scrying." Adopts the Dungeon #33 unofficial view, officially, but only because spell is modified.
4th Ed: Sight-based teleports only.
We've got a lot of changes over the years. Viewed Once is intended, under current rules, to include sight-based transport, though again the question of mental visualization is questioned. Does the spell "know" where to go even if the caster doesn't, or must the caster know the location and the visual layout? With a mountain 10 miles away, the caster can "see" it, has proximity to the location, but without magic, there's no way he can see the nook and cranny that he wants to land on. Is this the purpose of the "mishap," or must the caster have a visual image? What's to say he lands on the tip, in a cave, on a ledge, and so on? Does the spell simply fail without adequate data upon which to transport, or does the spell "fill in" missing information?
If GMs want to curb Scry and Die, one can simply house-rule Scrying back to its original form: target visualization only.
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Really? That trap require a 17th level caster and plenty of money.
Most of the spells that block teleportation are high level and/or cover a minimum area and/or work for people sharing a specific alignment and/or require to be a member of a specific spellcasting class. Generally they fall under several of those requirements.
Teleport is a 5th level spell that can be easily brought in scroll form, scrying is a 4th level spell.
So we have a huge dichotomy between who can use scry and fry tactics (essentially 7th level characters with a good equipment) and who can protect against them (most monster can't do that, even monster that are considered appropriate opponents for high level characters, members of several classes, even spellcasting classes can't do that).
There is one non magical defense:
"Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is blocked."
but it raise some question:
1) It is directional or you must live in a cube of lead?
2) What happen when you open a door? (no windows, leaded glass isn't lead sheeting. Maybe if the leaded glass is tick enough it will stop the magical sensor, but we have no data)
3) It is applicable to a dungeon or a castle but if the target leave them it is instantly vulnerable.
4) It require access to the raw materials and manufacturing capacity. Again something that is not granted for monster and can be a problem even for humanoid enemies.
Looking a few CR 10 monster that can be a reasonable epic enemy for a 7th level party:
bebilith, couatl, fire giant, giant flytrap, guardian naga, rakshasa, red dragon (young), silver dragon (young), white dragon (adult)
or CR 11 monster
barbed devil, black dragon (adult), brass dragon (adult),
cloud giant, devourer, earth elemental (elder), fire elemental (elder), gold dragon (young), hezrou, water elemental (elder)
I don't see much that can protect itself from a scry and fry attack.
But maybe teleport scroll aren't available, so only level 9+ character will use scry and fry?
CR 12 monsters
copper dragon (adult), green dragon (adult), lich
Well a lich probably will have some protection against scrying. One out of 3.
CR 13
blue dragon (adult), bronze dragon (adult), ghaele, glabrezu, ice devil, storm giant
The ghaele has the spell of a 13th level cleric, so she has ways to protect herself against scry and fry. Maybe the storm giant has the crafting capacity and access to the needed raw materials.
2 out of 6.
We can go on. Anything that isn't a pure spellcaster or has access to serious manufacturing capacity isn't capable to protect itself.
A lead-line castle isn't feasible or healthy, but it ignores my focus on the historical progression of "scry and die." Here's the recap of "Viewed Once" by edition:
Really well done history, thanks!
Really? That trap require a 17th level caster and plenty of money.
Most of the spells that block teleportation are high level and/or cover a minimum area and/or work for people sharing a specific alignment and/or require to be a member of a specific spellcasting class. Generally they fall under several of those requirements.
Teleport is a 5th level spell that can be easily brought in scroll form, scrying is a 4th level spell.
So we have a huge dichotomy between who can use scry and fry tactics (essentially 7th level characters with a good equipment) and who can protect against them (most monster can't do that, even monster that are considered appropriate opponents for high level characters, members of several classes, even spellcasting classes can't do that).
There is one non magical defense:
"Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is blocked."
but it raise some question:
1) It is directional or you must live in a cube of lead?
2) What happen when you open a door? (no windows, leaded glass isn't lead sheeting. Maybe if the leaded glass is tick enough it will stop the magical sensor, but we have no data)
3) It is applicable to a dungeon or a castle but if the target leave them it is instantly vulnerable.
4) It require access to the raw materials and manufacturing capacity. Again something that is not granted for monster and can be a problem even for humanoid enemies.
1 and 2. Draw a straight line between you and the target. If it passes through a sheet of lead, the spell fails. That is holding to a pretty strict RAW interpretation of "thin sheet of lead blocks scrying". I have no problem ruling that small cracks are not enough to let the censor in, because you would have to have exactly the right line. I also have no problem saying that enough twists and turns will also block the censor, because you could not get a line of effect to the target that didn't pass through a lead sheet.
3 is my point. The whole high level cat and mouse game is about creating situations that require your target to leave their safe sone.
4. There is plenty RAI that a thick amount of stone can also block divinations, so deep caves and the like become options.
You don't have to coat an entire castle in lead. Strategically placing lead sheets at various perimeters can create a castle for which there is no lead-free channel to the the royal chambers. Also, I typically design throne rooms as having checkerboard anti-magic zones.
Well, yes. But I think it works a little like the Palentiri , in that you see the person your scrying really up close and the background is vague and indistinct. Yes, if you're familiar with The Kings Study, you can likely figure it out, but otherwise- no.
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Hmm. I have Unearthed Arcana, and I'm not seeing "First requirement that visualizing a destination through scrying would not be enough." Where is that?
It's an inference. The Teleport w/o Error description for Planar travel is the first time we've seen a requirement the person have been to the location in order to teleport there. It didn't survive to 3rd edition.
Nah the latrine is a highly Advance Mimic just waiting for someone to sit down ... for lunch.Or the "common" trap involving disjunction and 20 enervations rays that is always in the same location of the BEEG.
I suppose even his latrine is trapped that way.
That could be interpreted in a very nasty way. That would be one Magical Realm I would not dare enter.
Oooh, dats a scary one, dat one scares even me.
James has given his opinion on both (non-rules-binding of course!) here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qqqi&page=3?How-are-people-supposed-to-tal k-to-Paizo-exactly
“Simulacrum, in my opinion, is one of the best spells due to the possibilities for adventures it creates... and one of the worst spells due to the possibilities for player characters it creates! :-)
And here's my personal take on the scry & fry scene for folks to use in their games if they want:
It doesn't work. Scrying allows you to observe a creature, but teleportation requires you know a location. Scrying a creature isn't scrying a location, therefore you can't scry on a creature and then teleport to it.
It's all about semantics, but that's often enough to justify overruling an element of game play that was both never intended to be an option and that tends to lessen the fun of game play overall, in my opinion.”
Bumping as this has come back up again.
Thanks Lincoln.
Scrying a creature isn't scrying a location, therefore you can't scry on a creature and then teleport to it.
So, wait, if the BBEG is in a village, slaughtering all townsfolk, all we'll see him do is wave his arms? Scrying won't tell us where he is and, per this interpretation, won't show us his surroundings, nor his victims, nor presumably the visual spell effects?
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Scrying a creature isn't scrying a location, therefore you can't scry on a creature and then teleport to it.So, wait, if the BBEG is in a village, slaughtering all townsfolk, all we'll see him do is wave his arms? Scrying won't tell us where he is and, per this interpretation, won't show us his surroundings, nor his victims, nor presumably the visual spell effects?
For the record, I just want to point something out to observers...
DrDeth thinks "Scry & Fry" is not great for the game. DrDeth is looking for a clarification from Paizo Developers that officially removes/limits the use of "Scry & Fry" from the Pathfinder game.
Kirth Gersen thinks "Scry & Fry" is not great for the game. Kirth has houseruled in his own games that teleportation and scrying spells and effects cannot penetrate through an area completely enclosed in 3 feet of common earth, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of metal, or a thin lead sheet.
Personally, I think that both of these solutions are fine. After reading Kirth's houserules, I've implemented this one and a few others. I also would like to see this fix applied in a larger scale and support DrDeth's campaign to request Paizo to consider clarifying the abilities. (They may decide to leave them be. Even though I don't agree, if that's their direction, then I fall back to the house rule and let it go.) It would be nice to hear their thoughts on it.
Basically... DrDeth & Kirth (and myself) all agree that "Scry & Fry" could use a fix, but we each have our own methods of addressing the same issue. Don't let the minor disagreements derail the fact that we agree on 90% of the current issue.
This reminds me of disagreements between different Christian denominations who will argue about small things despite agreeing on all but 3 specific points of doctrine... Probably the same for other religions, but this is the one I'm most familiar with. /Can'tWeAllJustGetAlongRant
The spell for scrying says you can see up to 10 ft in any direction of the subject. If the subject is in a room larger than 20 x 20, you would get no definite layout, since all you would see would be open floor, which could be any room of that size, wouldn't it? I guess I'm confused how Scrying would give you an exact layout of anything that fell outside of the "10 ft in any direction".
For example if you were in a large cave, and someone scrying only saw 10 ft in any direction, they would simply see 10 ft of cave, and barring any definitive points of reference, it could be ANY cave, couldn't it?
Scry&Fry is an issue solved like every other issue that magic causes.
Through greater application of magic. The first time half a party dies to a Teleport Trap is the last time Scry&Fry will be attempted.
However, few of those are in the AP's, which are very popular.
However, few of those are in the AP's, which are very popular.
Considering Scry&Fry is pretty much an optimized tactic, I'd say it falls under everything else that smashes APs open like a sledgehammer.
Like Dazing Spell.
Optimization isn't accounted for in building APs. They're made for low optimization 15 pb characters who don't employ the full force of all of their abilities.
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However, few of those are in the AP's, which are very popular.Considering Scry&Fry is pretty much an optimized tactic, I'd say it falls under everything else that smashes APs open like a sledgehammer.
Like Dazing Spell.
Optimization isn't accounted for in building APs. They're made for low optimization 15 pb characters who don't employ the full force of all of their abilities.
Very true. Personally, I think playing an AP pretty much comes with an unwritten rule that the players shouldn't do anything too extreme and potentially game-breaking.
Very true. Personally, I think playing an AP pretty much comes with an unwritten rule that the players shouldn't do anything too extreme and potentially game-breaking.
Personally, I think that of playing an RPG, period :)
Personally, I think that of playing an RPG, period :)
Very true. Personally, I think playing an AP pretty much comes with an unwritten rule that the players shouldn't do anything too extreme and potentially game-breaking.
Depends on the game. If I'm running an open-world sandbox style game, I'm a lot more willing to let players get crazy, because the world and enemy encounters can just adapt to that.
Meanwhile something with a definite script like an AP needs player to stick to the railroad tracks, and not run any extreme builds.
Now that we have a new staffer and FAQs are being done, maybe this might get answered?
Still nothing?
The inclusion of scrying as a way you could see a location and thus be familiar enough with it to teleport to it makes the intent of the rules clear.
Six months on, I still disagree with this. Just because the Teleport text suggests it's possible to scry on a location and teleport to it, that doesn't mean scrying is guaranteed to automatically give you sufficient information to do so.
Still nothing?
They have a ranking system for FAQ's.