I know Paladin is a word that gets some people foaming at the mouth on mention, but the horror stories I hear are why I'm posting this in the first place.
Does anyone have any advice on how best to play a paladin and get along with your average party? Rule #1 from my little understanding is the same as my first houserule: Don't be a dick. But is there anything else I should keep in mind? I'm going to be playing the guy (lvl 2 Lizardfolk) soon, and I'll be roleplaying him as an innocent nice guy, spreading the word of Svarozic (special thanks to the posters on these boards for giving me some directions in the past).
So, what are your thoughts, everyone?
EDIT: for convenience; "On the players and campaign note: it's political intrigue heavy, and the party has a rogue, a ninja, a bard, and a magus. at least two of them have CN written on their character sheet."
Rule #1a) Lawful Good is not Lawful Stupid. Define a code of ethics for your guy and run it past the other players and the GM. Make sure there isn't anything in it that will either break the game the GM has planned or conflict with other players. If there is conflict with other characters, make sure those players are ok with it and will work with you to make it good-fun instead of wrong-bad-fun.
2) Talk to everyone to make sure that they are with you in playing this class. You're right, there is so much baggage with Paladins that a lot of people are going to cringe and hiss "hurtss uss, my precioussss" when you mention it, but find out what their problems (if any) are with the character and see if your concept hits any of those trouble spots. If there are points of conflict, see if you can work them out before any dice get rolled.
That's about all that comes to mind right away. Good luck!
Talk to your GM before playing one. And pay attention to his reactions as you play.
Ultimately it's a question of whether they not they understand what Lawful Good is.
It's not being Lawful and Good.
It's about being Lawful Good. There's a distinction I think some people miss.
On the players and campaign note: it's political intrigue heavy, and the party has a rogue, a ninja, a bard, and a magus. at least two of them have CN written on their character sheet.
The big thing to remember is, as much as alignments are tied up in the class (too much, in my opinion), remember to take them with a grain of salt. Not all villains are Evil, and not all evil people are villains. Play the character you want to play, but also let the fellow players play the characters they want to play. If you think a fellow player is growing too close to the border of Neutral and Evil, just ignore it. It might require some metagaming on your part, but this is one of the cases where metagaming is generally positive, as it keeps the game from devolving into Player-on-Player conflict (which ordinarily can be fine, so long as it doesn't come to blows, but the existence of a Paladin can often serve as a match-in-a-gas-can for this sort of thing, escalating things to blows, too often). In addition, don't worry too much about falling. Most DMs won't be looking to make the paladin fall (and if they are, then find another DM); sure, keep in mind that you are a paladin, but also keep in mind that you are a fully fleshed out character as well, and fully fleshed out characters will occasionally lie or behave is a way that isn't strictly speaking "honorable" as corresponds to the paladin's code. Keep it in check, sure, but don't be a slave to the code.
Apart from that, yeah, rule 1. A well RPed paladin will make the experience better for everyone. A poorly RPed one will result in conflict, and make the experience universally worse (including for the paladin's player)
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Try to play the paladin as a "positive" guy. You believe in the greatest good for all. Law and organization are the best way to achieve justice, not goals in themselves. Occasionally, occasionally bending the rules may be better. But it's distasteful and a slippery slope, and that's why you shouldn't be doing it. Lawful good means that the ends do not necessarily justify the means. You have to set a higher standard, not a dangerous precedent that other, less principled people might pervert even further.
Don't focus on policing your party. Be clear about what's important: protecting the innocent from the evil and monstrous. A paladin's not really meant for urban, human-to-human crime. Your skillset isn't adequate, and your special abilities point to your dedication to different problems. In particular, the dark trinity of dragon, outsiders and undead.
On the use of Detect Evil: use it whenever prudent. If an NPC offers your party a risky job, scan him. If there's a suspicious person in the tavern, scan. But merely detecting as evil doesn't mean someone is guilty. They might have a bad personality, but as long as they don't commit any crimes, you're not to punish them. However, you should be on guard against them, because if they're evil, it's quite possible that they will do something, at some point.
But since you're not really the sneaky type, hunting humanoid crimes isn't something you're great at. You should probably warn the appropriate authorities to keep an eye on the evil person; maybe even enlist party members to check them out.
Your job is to defeat such evil as must be defeated in battle. Those are undead with powers you're immune to (mummy rot, aura of despair) that would almost automatically defeat other people trying to make a stand; and critters that other people have little hope of defeating (Smite goes right through DR).
With the rest of your party: make it very clear that you won't tolerate actual evil. You understand that they're not to be held to the same saintly standard you are. Extreme unlawfulness could be a problem, and you generally won't support any chaotic behavior yourself. But you won't necessarily go looking for them. If you don't know about it, then obviously you're not endorsing it. You're supposed to be setting an example, so endorsing chaos is bad; but you're not an inquisitor.
Also, make it clear to the rest of the party why it's nice to have a paladin in the party. This is important.
- Someone you can trust. If a paladin says he'll support you, he will. You don't have to watch your back against this guy, and he'll probably reduce the amount of naked intra-party intrigue by his very presence.
- Someone willing to take the front line against things no sane person wants to be on the front line against.
- Good PR. In civilized places (that aren't too far from LG), paladins will probably be regarded positively. Since everyone knows paladins can't pervert the cause of justice, if they say they'll keep the rogue in line, the rogue gets cleared of a lot of suspicion. If a paladin denounces someone as evil, that's a credible accusation just because it was a paladin making it.
LG can be annoying because it's often played as uptight and fascist. But if it's played as a positive thing, then it's people coming together to obtain the Good and the Just for everyone. That sounds nicer, doesn't it?
If we're talking about basically any modern society, and say "the system works", we're probably talking about a LG society.
On the players and campaign note: it's political intrigue heavy, and the party has a rogue, a ninja, a bard, and a magus. at least two of them have CN written on their character sheet.
I'd say you're already in for a bad time.
Don't just talk to your DM (definitely talk to him, setting expectations and mutual understanding on alignment issues is huge)
But also discuss with your fellow players
If they are in the mood for playing 'scoundrels', non heroic types that get good deeds done in spite of themselves, a Paladin might significantly drag the group dynamic down. If you are bringing a Paladin into a group of these types of characters, you should have some form of background connection with them to establish A- why they would want you around at all, and B- why you see a greater good within them and work to guide them to achieve good outcomes for the community, instead of just leaving them for better traveling companions.
I'm not saying don't do it...
... I am strongly suggesting not bringing in the 'stranger who will be judging them and preaching moralistically to them'
I am a bigger fan of the Paladin who tries to embody goodness by demonstrating a standard for others to follow, not demanding they do so, but some DMs don't consider that a restrictive enough read of the Paladin's code.
On the players and campaign note: it's political intrigue heavy, and the party has a rogue, a ninja, a bard, and a magus. at least two of them have CN written on their character sheet.I'd say you're already in for a bad time.
Don't just talk to your DM (definitely talk to him, setting expectations and mutual understanding on alignment issues is huge)
But also discuss with your fellow players
If they are in the mood for playing 'scoundrels', non heroic types that get good deeds done in spite of themselves, a Paladin might significantly drag the group dynamic down. If you are bringing a Paladin into a group of these types of characters, you should have some form of background connection with them to establish A- why they would want you around at all, and B- why you see a greater good within them and work to guide them to achieve good outcomes for the community, instead of just leaving them for better traveling companions.
I'm not saying don't do it...
... I am strongly suggesting not bringing in the 'stranger who will be judging them and preaching moralistically to them'I am a bigger fan of the Paladin who tries to embody goodness by demonstrating a standard for others to follow, not demanding they do so, but some DMs don't consider that a restrictive enough read of the Paladin's code.
As soon as I read that post to myself, I kind of noticed how "landmine situation" that sounded. I should also point out that I know most of the group personally, outside of pathfinder. And I have talked to the GM and group about it, that's how I came to decide on playing "reasonable Paladin." I was looking for some advice or examples on how to pull this off. Thank you for your input, everybody!
Well, ask 10 people an alignment question and you're likely to get 12 different answers (which this is more or less an alignment question from the sounds of it).
As others have stated though, the key to RP'ing an alignment is to make sure that everyone a) understands what is expected of a given alignment and b) that players do not go out of their way to screw with somebody's alignment. The good news is that it sounds as though your group likely already has b) covered.
As for the first issue, you've taken the right step in talking with your group, so that should help. In terms of RPing the alignment though, there are obviously some no brainers -- Don't try to kill innocents, don't intentionally break "good" laws, etc.
I personally think though that it can get into grey areas fairly quick though -- which is where your GM's interpretation of the alignment issue comes in. For instance, in an evil kingdom ruled by an evil tyrant, its quite likely that a paladin might find certain laws to be so inherently evil/wrong/unlawful/etc. that he really doesn't have a problem disobeying them. I personally don't think that would be an unlawful act -- the Lawful part of the alignment can also apply to a personal code of ethics, etc.
Additionally, when it comes to taking prisoners, I think there's a lot of room for interpretation too. I think a paladin would have a hard time justifying torture in order to get answers. However, if an enemy is evil enough, I'm not convinced that a paladin would have a problem with executing the enemy (though he should probably allow the enemy the opportunity to explain himself and/or explain why he should not be executed). Again though, all of this goes back to the paladin's code, GM's interpretation, etc.
I do think its important though to find out exactly how your fellow players intend to play their characters. Rogue, ninja, bard, etc. certainly can be played very chaotically and evilly, but they do not need to be. The CN characters are perhaps the biggest worry as in my experience, a lot of players choose CN because they believe it to mean that they can do whatever they want. I'm not sure I completely agree with that, but that is a different issue.
Finally, one interesting avenue for RP could be your character's quest/mission to help your party members "see the light" and change their ways (particularly the CN ones). Perhaps your paladin and the CN characters go back a ways and were friends who wound up taking different paths due to circumstances beyond their control. Now your paladin is trying to help bring them back to the light so to speak. A not of caution though: BE VERY CAREFUL if doing this. There can often be a very fine line between RP'ing and Preaching, particular where morality is concerned. I probably wouldn't say things all the time, but the occasional nudge, etc., could help really flesh out the character and the campaign.
So:
1. Don't kill the very squishy (actually the reason I decided to choose Paladin specifically) CN PCs.
2. Try to play "Nice Guy"
3. Don't kill things if their only crime was pinging on my evildar.
Is that right?
That about right.
One of the hardest things to remember about playing a paladin is that they have high standards for themselves, but they don't have to hold others to those standards. If the other party members do, then that's just a bonus for the paladin's point of view.
On the torture thing, for example, a paladin would be highly unlikely to advocate torture as a means of obtaining information. He might even argue vociferously against it. But he does not have to throw a hissy-fit and arrest/kill the party rogue who decides to engage in a little light persuasive pain if the overall outcome promotes Good. He'd just never do it himself, because he holds himself to a higher standard.
In other words, the paladin code is for the paladin to stick to. It has no impact on the rest of the party unless someone in the party is Evil.
My advice is read Broken Zenith's write up on Paladins (mostly in regards to falling). It has good info on discussions to have before play with your DM and Group.
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1.) See if you can find a copy of the old 2e Complete Guide to Paladins.
2.) Ask your DM what he views as appropriate behavior for a paladin.
3.) Don't listen to anyone who tries to sell you bills of good about 'well thats good to them' or 'my society defines good as...' or similar claptrap.
4.) Make sure you know what kind of people you're associating with before you play one. If they all want to play CN piratical types, don't be a paladin. Its not worth the aggravation.
5.) Don't be bullied into being the You're-Ok-I'm-Ok Paladin.
6.) The paladin code is for you. Don't be arrogant paladin. The party doesn't have to obey your same high minded ideals, they aren't paladins. However paladins don't associate with backstabbing ends-justify-the-means scum. Just because these scum are PCs, shouldn't change that.
7.) When the party wants you to 'go on a walk' so they can do something dodgy. Tell them no. Just because you're playing the paladin doesn't mean you have to give into them, anymore then they have to give into you.
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7.) When the party wants you to 'go on a walk' so they can do something dodgy. Tell them no. Just because you're playing the paladin doesn't mean you have to give into them, anymore then they have to give into you.
I would respectfully disagree with this last point
most of the time I hear player bemoaning the paladin in the party it is over something like this.
The subtext of this behavior from the perspective of your fellow players is "you can't play your character and his motivations, because my character's motivations are more important" This is, of course, not what is going on inside your head, but that is how it feels from the other end.
So, I would suggest, you purposefully and willfully allow your Paladin to be eluded by clever party members who are trying to get away with things. It makes the dynamic playful and fun, instead of restrictive.
Only have your Paladin 'socially entrench' if the issue is of crucial importance, and he'd have to be an idiot to not notice the manipulation. If your standard response is "I don't have to give in to you" go back to step 4 on spook's list, and don't play a Paladin
the paladin code is for the paladin to stick to. It has no impact on the rest of the party unless someone in the party is Evil.
Hear hear. A Paladin is a paragon, not a policeman. Lead by example, and have mercy on those weaker than you.
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"Lawful" doesn't mean willful stupidity to unjust measures, but it does carry a tendency to order and consistency versus unrestricted chaos. A paladin can tell a dirty joke, have a drink, and carouse with the best of them, but he won't try to rip off the bar by passing fake coin (the orderly aspect). While there may be a distaste to subterfuge, a paladin isn't beyond it to accomplish a greater good.
Per the spoiler, you may wish a search for the Code and Measure of the Solamnic Knights, which were generally a more fleshed-out paladin of the setting.
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7.) When the party wants you to 'go on a walk' so they can do something dodgy. Tell them no. Just because you're playing the paladin doesn't mean you have to give into them, anymore then they have to give into you.I would respectfully disagree with this last point
most of the time I hear player bemoaning the paladin in the party it is over something like this.
The subtext of this behavior from the perspective of your fellow players is "you can't play your character and his motivations, because my character's motivations are more important" This is, of course, not what is going on inside your head, but that is how it feels from the other end.So, I would suggest, you purposefully and willfully allow your Paladin to be eluded by clever party members who are trying to get away with things. It makes the dynamic playful and fun, instead of restrictive.
Only have your Paladin 'socially entrench' if the issue is of crucial importance, and he'd have to be an idiot to not notice the manipulation. If your standard response is "I don't have to give in to you" go back to step 4 on spook's list, and don't play a Paladin
I'd agree in most cases, but a lot of pally players today are so terrified of overreaching, they let people get away with murder and it impacts their fun and enjoyment.
It flows both ways. The paladin doesn't have to 'give in' anymore then anyone else in the party does.
I admit that as a player I've got a big 'you aren't any different from any other character just because your played by my friend' ethic.
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I think a paladin can "look the other way" if he knows the party is going to do something dodgy but not outright evil. Boys will be boys. While he upholds a higher standard himself, there's also such a thing as plausible deniability.
On the other hand, when mischief is turning into serious crime and evil, you do have to step in.
But I think the other players may be relieved if you firmly declare that your focus is "military", not civic. It's a sort of Posse Comitatus thing.
Nooooooooo he wants to be a Palidin fall fall fall!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do not pass go do not collect 200gold faaaaaalllllllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But on a serious not fallllllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!
But on a real serious note ....hi
One a some other note I like paladins and if played right work really well and if not I like antipaladins more lol
We had our first session with me (Keshik, Keshy to his friends) involved. It went about as well as possible, I think. I made friends with the magus, and we were sent on a raid against the local bigshot crime family, of which every other player is affiliated with.
So, I have to wonder how that'll play out, I'm at least on good terms with the players, and they're plenty aware of the dreaded Lawful Stupid, and that I'm trying to avoid that.
I would advise getting with your GM and writing up a code of conduct.
A million times this.
Saves arguments later.
I agree in full. I want to get this much done later tonight, when the one (we have 2 co-gms for the large group) who has played a Paladin before, is available.
Anyone have any ideas for a Code of Conduct of Svarozic? From the wiki:
"Svarozic is an archon empyreal lord known to be very wise.
The primary goal of Svarozic is to find more ways to improve the works of civilization, whether that means redesigning obsolete traditions or to inspire great deeds with the younger generations."
The primary goal of Svarozic is to find more ways to improve the works of civilization, whether that means redesigning obsolete traditions or to inspire great deeds with the younger generations."
Start with Paladins of Abadar, and add a bit more Goodness in their goals.
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Ok, here is what I could come up with in a pinch
1. Act with kindness: we band together so we can live better. There is no greater good than the well-being of others, and no more proper action than that which is done for the good of others. Without that, nothing else is important.
2. Act with honor: a proper society is built on expecting the proper action from others. If you do not show it, who will?
3. Be an example for what you believe in: people are influenced by what happens around them. By inspiring others to act properly, the good of your own deeds can be multiplied.
4. All honest work is valuable: the high and the low all have their value, and their honest work is as valuble as any other's. There is no dishonest or lowly work bar that which hurts another. A good maidservant is worthier than a dishonest lady.
5. The work is the legacy of the man: our works are our lives' legacy. This makes them just as valuable and worthy of protection. A sword, a house or a jewel is not just an object, but the fruit of someone's hard labor. On the other hand, the works of evil and iniquity must be cleansed or dismantled.
6. Give mercy when it is possible, and vengeance only when it is needed: most evil can be reformed and turned to the common good. The dead cannot repent and turn their strength to aiding the living.
7. Laws are not the masters of men, but their servants: an orderly and just society is a boon to all, and laws are a necessary part to that. They are necessary, but only inasmuch as they improve people's lives. The spirit of the law - if it is right and proper - is more important to the letter.
8. A good law is to be folowed.A poor law is to be changed: When a law, a tradition or a government harms more than it helps, it should be changed. This should be done within the limits of what is legal if at all possible, but the well-being of the people, not the laws, is the paramount concern.
Some things worth getting straight with your GM:
Is it evil to summarily execute helpless prisoners (when they're bad people)?
Is it evil to use torture (when you need urgent information)?
Is it evil to use mind-control spells on people (or to allow your allies to do so)?
These are common sources of disagreement.
That's... really great! I really like what you've come up with there!
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Also as a note I forgot.
First magic item you should try to get.
Phylactery of Faithfulness.
"The wearer of a phylactery of faithfulness is aware of any action or item that could adversely affect his alignment and his standing with his deity, including magical effects. He acquires this information prior to performing such an action or becoming associated with such an item if he takes a moment to contemplate the act."
1000gp to always know if you're doing the right thing. It also gives you a heads up if touching that sword is a bad idea.
An interesting approach I'd like to suggest here - watch a few episodes of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and well..act accordingly..just without the "C'mon everypony!" bits. Frankly I'd have to try that out myself some day. It's all the goodness and compassion without the "evil? SLAY!"
Whenever I think of paladin behavior I remember an old web comic called Goblins that I used to read. One of the characters was a goblin paladin and was the model for what I now think paladins should be. There was also a dwarf paladin that was the perfect example of what you should not do. Worth looking up if you have time and interest.
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Where there is darkness darker than night, I shall bring a shining light.
One thing mechanically is, I think imho That THE must take feat is Fey Foundling. 2-20 extra hp healed per LoH( based on levels in paladin)
now for a code of ethics, here is something I used for my first paladin, and I pretty much use it for my others and reference it to friends that play paladins. Tweaks here and there are appropriate as fits. It gives a clear defined idea of his codes, morals, and goals.
(and does so in a semi-cool way imo)
Where despair, suffering, and oppression run rampant, I shall bring a mighty hope.
When demons and undead run amok, I shall bring them to heel.
When Evil threatens the world, I shall stand against the tide.
When all hope is gone and evil has seemingly won, I shall stand strong.
Where tyranny reigns free and tyrants oppress the people, I shall bring freedom.
Where sin and evil run rampant, I shall bring redemption.
Where disease, death, and strife are present, I shall bring relief.
Never Shall I yield, never shall I waver, and never shall I falter.
I am the sword of justice, the hammer of the righteous, the shield of the people.
I am a warrior of the holy light, and evil shall fear my name.
It cannot run, it cannot hide, and it shall not best me.
This is my oath, my vow, my life, be I live by it, or die by it.
I, am a Paladin.
I made one for a paladin I made focused on healing and support but... it wasn't as good :P
3 years, not a bad necro.