I'm not sure if this is in the right place so apologies beforehand if it isn't.
I need some advice on a member of our regular gaming group though. Myself and another member are relatively new to Pathfinder and roleplay in general. We stick to the core rule book for the majority of our characters/spells/feats etc. We really play just to meet up and have some fun. We have one other member though aside from the DM who is proving to be a bit of a frustration for us.
So far each of the characters he has made have been strange ones with combinations of skills from various books. Now these would be fine except they are not ones that you would naturally think up. Each of these characters we're pretty sure have been taken from pre-made builds online. Today's example was a fighter using a Sawback Bastard Sword and doing 2D8+8 damage (With his power attack on top. He's playing as a human. The DM looked into this and said it's only possible with a specific gameplay rule and even then would not naturally be thought to do)He's using theses builds to appear smart towards us all, claiming they are his own and we've tried explaining to him that this is just frustrating for the whole group as the characters are not wholly effective and when they are you can tell a mile away that they are not his, they're overpowered in some way and it's ruining the enjoyment for the 2 of us who are reasonably new to it all.
I may be just getting wound up for nothing over it all, after all they are his characters but it's getting to a point where the group is on breaking point simply because he is trying to play in this style. I've spoken many times with the DM about this but it's a fine line between letting someone do what they enjoy and limiting everything they do just to please others. How can we get it through to him that this just isn't what we want to game with?
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Hi, welcome alpyra.
Since you are new one thing I can tell you is sometimes player preferences can be quite far apart. Usually with help from both players and GM these gaps can be overcome and everyone can enjoy the game. Other times the gap will remain or the player may just be a disruptive type. In those games its best to seperate from one another. Obviously having to break up a group can be complicated and emotional.
A few things to try:
GM needs to limit choices to what they are familiar with.
Players discuss what type of game they want and ask player to try and work within those parameters.
If those fail you may have to ask the player to leave since they are not willing to compromise. Hopefully you can make things work. I do have a saying for you though in the case they dont, "best friends sometimes make the worst players."
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Here's what I said just a while ago:"Well, you see- those of us who have a certain level of skill mastery only optimize our characters to be a notch above the newer players. Thus- fun for all.
Yes, it does take even more system mastery that the optimizers use here on these boards to do it, but it's worth it.
You design a PC who is fun, optimized just enough, and survivable. No need to be the biggest bad-$$$ at the table- the game is not a competition, there are no "winners".
Help the newbs avoid the more crippling mistakes without railroading them. if they want to play a rogue, do tell them about Bards or that super archetype the Ninja- but then if they don't like that idea, just make a few suggestions. Don't say "Oh Noes, rouges are teh suxxor, you CAN'T play one of those, it's badwrongfun."
I find I enjoy the game way, WAY more when the whole table is having fun."
He is at that awkward stage too many gamers get stuck in. He's acquired a level of system mastery without the maturity and social mastery that is needed to work well with the rest of the table. Not pointing fingers but it seems like a good number of optimizers who post here don;t understand this. Or more likely, they really DO understand it, and play like that iRL, but their posting personae doesn't.
It's actually pretty simple. just sit down and talk with him like adults. Explain that D&D is a Game, and the idea of a Game is for ALL the players to have Fun.
Once he learns that true system mastery is being able to design a character that fits well with the group as opposed to simply optimized for power play, he'll come around. Assuming, of course, he has the emotional maturity to understand this.
Good luck and good gaming!
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How is he getting 2d8 on a bastard sword? Is he large sized, enlarged, or using a large weapon? Sawback is an addition to a sword that doesn't change its damage at all.
I'm guessing he took the exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword) and is two-handing a large sized sword at a to hit penalty. But other than your suggestions it could also be that they're at a high enough level that he can afford an impact weapon, but that's at least an 18,335 gp investment, so I kind of doubt that if 2d8+8 is an issue.
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My only concern is that the player might have somehow bamboozled the OP into thinking that having the Sawback feature increases the sword's damage die.
Edit: I should also note that I made this post primarily for the chance to use "bamboozled".
I'm assuming here that he is a level 1 fighter as that's the only time that damage would be a real issue.
Other people have made points about making a character to fit etc, so I wont touch those.
A couple things however. To get 2d8+8+power attack is if he has 20 strength and a +1 from somewhere, like an archetype or bard song something, lvl 1 is too soon for weapon specialization. This means that he has put 17 points of his point buy into strength. What point buy are you using? Unless it is 25 he must have dumped a lot or he is going to be lacking in other area's. If he dumped say charisma and intelligence, is he role playing a socially inept idiot? He should be, if not the gm should be saying frequently 'your character doesn't have the mental faculties to come up with that' If he didn't dump he's got few points left to put elsewhere and should have massive glaring weaknesses. his hit points and saves and AC should be bad, or at best average, thus he should be easily counterable. one hold person and he's out of the combat for a while unless he's very lucky.
Another thing that bastard sword gives a -2 penalty to hit, that should reduce a very nice +6 to +4 to hit he should have a hard time hitting. If he is hitting all the time he is either very lucky, lucky enough to ask him to change dice (sometimes dice are flawed) or he's cheating.
You should have your GM vet his character, if your gm is not familiar enough to look up all the rules he is not familiar with, get someone who is to do it.
Have your gm learn what weaknesses this character has, the more specialized the build the more there are weaknesses.
Of course the best solution is to talk him into nerfing himself, as you want him to do, but if you don't want to go that route try this one.
They could also be rolling for stats. The luck of the dice is a fickle thing, sometimes leaving people with all stats 14 or less, sometimes 14 and above only. (I've tried the first, my friend the latter—both on a 4d6 remove lowest, best row out of 3).
Thanks for the replies guys. It's a large weapon and we're currently level 5. The GM has requested his character sheet as the one we saw before the game wouldn't have had the stats to get the damage or hit that he is. He also has 20 AC (not sure if that matters). I found that the Sawback part made no difference which is what confuses us further as why go for that then as it will make no change? We're thinking it was to hide the fact that the weapon was large. This just shows us more that he probably wasn't the one who made the character in the first place or if he did he's cheating.
We're also rolling for stats but of all 4 characters he sent us last week (This was after his last character was killed off after weeks of annoyance) they have all had high stats of everything 14+ with each character having at least 1 20 in there somewhere. All 4 characters sent less than 2 hours after the game finished were all these kinds of powerplay types which the GM was mostly against for one reason or another. Not the types you could create that quickly. He approved this fighter based on what he saw and of course that all changed yesterday when it came into play and bits of it had suddenly changed.
As said the GM has requested the updated character sheet and will either request a new character or recommend some nerfs like the weapon for example but I doubt this player will take it so well. His first character for the campaign was a level 1 Magus where he had found some combo attack thing which again caused arguements in the group. It was house ruled that he couldn't use it in that manner and he basically had a sulk and re-rolled. At this rate I think the easiest thing will either be a point buy (Which he will find a way to abuse) or the GM creates our characters for us which sort of removes that experience from me and the other newbie.
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His first character for the campaign was a level 1 Magus where he had found some combo attack thing which again caused arguements in the group. It was house ruled that he couldn't use it in that manner and he basically had a sulk and re-rolled.
The magus actually has a "combo attack" it is called Spell Combat(EX). The character can use this with Spellstrike upon reaching second level.
This should help: Walter's Guide to the Magus.
Maybe you should consider he is not cheating and actually understands the rules better than you do since you are new to the game.
It kinda sounds to me like he just knows what he's doing, although making sudden changes between GM approval and game start is not okay without asking the GM.
Your GM and fellow player should probably sit down and go through his character sheets together to make sure the GM properly understands what you're dealing with. If they do, that player won't be upset with having his character nerfed after being introduced because the GM suddenly realizes that he's at a power level he isn't comfortable with, because that should hopefully be caught beforehand.
I don't see the problem with the sawback sword. I didn't know about this add-on before, but I'd gladly pay the 5 gp for a saw that was just a part of my saw and didn't weigh anything. You never know what you'll need, so it just adds utility.
EDIT: Oh, and speaking of the four character sheets within two hours... Maybe he's just the kind of guy who makes tons of backup characters all the time, so he already had them lying around.
One of the better parts to optimize for something else than damage, is that you ussually avoid jealousy and other players let you play your char, because you don't "steal" their "kills".
If you have a character with unhittable AC or whatever, people don't ussually make an issue of it. If you can 1shot the BBEG they nirmally do, though
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It sounds to me like you guys dont want this guy in the game. But instead of telling him goodbuy you try to force him to reroll endlesly and force him to quit.
If 2d8+8+ powerattack is a problem at level 5 on a figther i dont like to think about what the rest of you are bringing to the table.
And if you have already died several times each( or is it only that one guy that dies) pehaps you guys and the GM should have a sit down and talk about what each of you want from the game.
I think you should Cut this guy some slack.
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Just to point: 2d8+8 is just the minimum baseline for a 5th level fighter with a 2h weapon. Assuming he is using a oversized weapon with -2 to hit, it's not even that great of a deal, but whatever:
Baseline character with standard array, highest stat a 15. Any rational player would put that into Str, no need of system mastery for that. It means 15+ 2 racial from human, = str 17. At 4th level, you get +1 which, again, any rational player would put into str too, unless you are building some special character. But a baseline 2h fighter, no-brain str improvement. That's 18. Assuming he gets Weapon Specialization (that, again, 99.9% of rational players do), and weapon training with heavy blades (another option than ANY player who is not mentally handicaped would take) that's 2d6+9 right there. With a +1 weapon (quite common at 4th level), that's 2d6+10, with your power attack on top of that. Average damage for a baseline, player-with-a-functional-brain fighter with a 2h sword: 17. To do less than that amount of damage with a 2h sword fighter, you need to purposselly take sub-optimal decisions. By sub-optimals I mean taking Skill Focus: basket weaving instead of Weapon specialization or Weapon Training: thrown weapons with a 2h fighter.
So really, if that 2d8+8 (which is also 17 average damage, but with -2 to hit) is outshinning you, then maybe you should try to boost your characters a bit. To "baseline level".
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Use point-buy not rolling.
All make new PCs together using the resources approved by the GM so he can share with you all his awesome system mastery.
That's a very good idea, Bacon666
+1 for you guys making your characters together in the future, because it sounds like you can benefit and learn from this guy.
I've been deliberating with myself whether I should add this or not, but I guess why not. So, to add a little perspective, I have a fighter who had that exact damage output (2d8+8 before power attack) at level 1. I'm not saying that that's not OP, but if it's doable at level 1 it's probably not OP by level 5 (see gustavo iglesias's post).
That's a very good idea, Bacon666No copyright, so feel free to steal the idea :-D
I'd do, the next time I GM (currently playing Rise of Runelords, so I'll be away from the GM spot for the next 10 months or so). But I'll give it a try, rest asured
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Nothing wrong with getting a build from someone else as long as you read the material and make sure everything works as described. You might be surprised how often someone advises a feat, spell, equipment, class feature, ect, but fail to describe its usage correctly and that results in cheating. For example, a player told me his hair was always moving about. The witch hex prehensile hair only lasts one minute a day per level.
Is your obsession with weather or not he builds his own PC or gets it from someone else based on jealousy that he has time to read up on effective builds and you feel weak with your choices in comparison? As the others point out, it is very easy to get that kind of damage at level 5.
Yeah, this seems to be close to the point where you should just have him leave... they're only going to get more miserable because they are being singled out. Probably better to boot them.
My own adventures in optimizing have led me to make a comprehensive personal list of houserules, notes (since a lot of abilities are unclear/hard to understand/open to interpretation) & modifications. I'm generally open to anything first party, but I do need to approve the player sheet beforehand. I've gotten the basic training to identify suspicious combos at least.
As for the magus thing, there are more chance somebody didnt understand something. It is REALLY easy to not understand the magus rules probperly (took me about a month myself). I'd be interested in knowing the problem, because magus is my favorite class, and I dont want people to be turned off by it. It's a great class, with some ways to make a LOT of damage, but it can be unreliable at both very low & very high level.
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As the others point out, it is very easy to get that kind of damage at level 5.
Actually, it's hard NOT to get that kind of damage at level 5. You need to do it on purpose. I mean... just by saying "I'd like to play a two handed warrior" is enough.
We are talking about minimun strength for a human (15 starting+2 racial), and just weapon specialization. *Who* doesn't get that? It's not like you need an obscure combo of class and race, an exotic oriental weapon from some splatbook, some overpowered campaign trait, and bending your background to be able to take regional specific traits such as Dervish Dancer.
It's just freaking weapon specialization, minimum strength with a conservative point buy system, and a basic two handed sword. If they can't stand that, I don't know what kind of characters are allowed in their games.
I'd like to point out that using a large Bastard sword is not entirely out of the ordinary either. I mean, it is the favored weapon of the Iconic Barbarian, which also might be where he got the idea.
Anyways, when I was a newer player, We had a similar issue with my group. One player always had far more power characters than everyone else. Looking at his sheets, he always had the most ridiculous scores that "he rolled." Multiple 18's, nothing below 14, etc. Our solution was was to always roll our stats in front of the GM, and not using any 3rd party material, which he had been abusing. Later we moved to point buy.
In the case that this player is just better at optimizing than the rest of your group, you could always ask him for help making your characters. This way, you won't be making him feel prosecuted, and your group will grow together. After you roll you stats together, take some time to talk about your character concepts, and give each other feed back and suggestions about feats and class ability choices. THis way you can weed out over optimized characters and help each other avoid trap choices.
Thanks for the feedback guys. The problem isn't so much the stats or even the characters he's playing. We do understand Magnus by the way though. It's his attitude about it. It's almost like he wants to be star of the story so the characters he's rolling are your power-play characters. He also is the type to be slightly patronising and condescending when it comes to trying to help so unfortunately trying to boost us to his level just wouldn't be an option as we'd just be feeding his ego.
It seems current plan with the GM (As he's still not had the new character sheet to go through) is to hold off the gaming for a few weeks to give us all a breather. Personally I'm entering each game ready for a new argument with this other player and need a break from him myself. It's not a case of we want to get rid of him from the group either because he is (When not gaming) a decent guy. It just seems since we lost a few members that his attitude is not being cushioned any more as it was in the past.
Anyways we're thinking a break for now and I've recommended maybe a new tabletop for us all to try from fresh so we're all on the same level when it comes to creation and game-play. Mistakes can be made and we can all learn together.
Thanks again for the help guys. It's really appreciated.
i can't see how 2d8+8 is legal, as it was recently pointed out to me that you can't use a large size two-handed weapon at all if you are a medium sized character.
However, this is pretty obscure that nobody until me has brought it up, so even on the boards it's not really well known. What I'm saying is; don't jump to conclusions (and accuse him of cheating), your player probably did not know about this either. However, using a large size two-handed weapon is not legal, in any circumstance except being large (or larger) size.
edit; 2d6+8, however, at level 5, would be very do-able.
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@ alpyra: I dont know how long you've been playing with this person, but this does seem to be the case of someone who wants to be the center of attention. As far as I know, changing systems wont change the person. They seem to have VERY different goals from the rest of the group, which does not bode well...
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A medium bastard sword is a one-handed weapon for a medium creature, and does 1d10 damage.
A large bastard sword is a one-handed weapon for a large creature, therefore counts as a two-handed weapon for a medium creature. It does 2d8 damage, but a medium creature attacks with it at -2.
True, but also requires the exotic weapon proficency to wield if I remmeber correctly.
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i can't see how 2d8+8 is legal, as it was recently pointed out to me that you can't use a large size two-handed weapon at all if you are a medium sized character.
However, this is pretty obscure that nobody until me has brought it up, so even on the boards it's not really well known. What I'm saying is; don't jump to conclusions (and accuse him of cheating), your player probably did not know about this either. However, using a large size two-handed weapon is not legal, in any circumstance except being large (or larger) size.
edit; 2d6+8, however, at level 5, would be very do-able.
It's because it's a large bastard sword, not a large 2h. You can use it 2h if large (the iconic barbarian does it)
To the OP: It seems your group simply don't like that guy. It's doesn't matter of whose it's the fault. He is patronizing, in your view, you are probably stubborn in his view (because you don't accept his advice, because that will feed his ego, and you also want to "win" the ego war more than you want to optimize your characters. If your group weren't interested in "winning" the ego war, you'll let him "win" it). When 2 people don't connect, it's not about finding guilty. It's about minimizing the drama. You don't like him, then don't play with him. It's really that simple
i can't see how 2d8+8 is legal, as it was recently pointed out to me that you can't use a large size two-handed weapon at all if you are a medium sized character.
However, this is pretty obscure that nobody until me has brought it up, so even on the boards it's not really well known. What I'm saying is; don't jump to conclusions (and accuse him of cheating), your player probably did not know about this either. However, using a large size two-handed weapon is not legal, in any circumstance except being large (or larger) size.
edit; 2d6+8, however, at level 5, would be very do-able.
Actually you can not use a large two handed weapon as a medium creature. You can use a weapon that is one-handed for a large creature.
True, but also requires the exotic weapon proficency to wield if I remmeber correctly.A medium bastard sword is a one-handed weapon for a medium creature, and does 1d10 damage.
A large bastard sword is a one-handed weapon for a large creature, therefore counts as a two-handed weapon for a medium creature. It does 2d8 damage, but a medium creature attacks with it at -2.
correct :)
I stand corrected!
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I see a pile of posts banding together in defense of the "power gamer" in the OP's group, and frankly, it does not surprise me at all. I guess a lot of very vocal posters feel identified with that player's style and immediately get on the defensive by trying to turn the situation around by "blaming the victim", so to speak. This is not a tirade against power gaming or optimization. No offense intended to anyone, seriously, but I think that the OP's complaints are legitimate and understandable.
First, the group as a whole is fairly new to RPGs. The behavior described can be very disruptive to the general enjoyment and learning process of all involved. Second, the guy is not a power gamer, he is a cheater. "Rolling" only 14s to 18s, always, is plain cheating, there is no way around it, and at least in my case it predisposes me to believe he is the "guilty party". Trying to hide the fact that his 2d8 Bastard Sword is oversized to avoid the penalties is an even worse kind of cheating. This demonstrates an utter lack of respect towards his fellow players. Him consulting optimization guides and copying cookie-cutter munchkin builds may not be cheating, but certainly can leave a bitter taste in the mouth of his gaming buddies, who are trying to learn the intricacies of character building on their own. If he on top of that tries to claim all that supposed "system mastery" as his own superior command of the game, it can be completely irritating to the rest. Finally, the urge to be always under the spotlight and be the hero of the story (with the rest of the PCs relegated to the role of mere sidekicks) speaks volumes of that person's incapacity or unwillingness to play as a team player. Of course, this takes into account the only side of the story that we have been told.
In short, I do not think that reactions such as "he's not op, is the rest of you that suck at chargen", or accusing the OP of wanting to win an ego war are entirely justified. Different groups seek different things in RPGs, and not everyone is interested in DPR olympics or number-crunching and rules-lawyering to be above other PCs. In my opinion, the OP is not really wrong in wanting to try other systems less prone to this approach. There are hundreds of excellent games out there.
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Actually, most of us agree with you. It doesn't matter whether or not his PC is OP or not. It doesn't matter whether his PC is legal or not. It doesn't matter whether Optimization is a Bad or Good thing,
What does matter is that he's not adapting to the group. If he was a die hard RPer from the Old School who nerfs his own PC for RPing reasons and the rest of the group were "rollplayers" who optimized heavily- then he'd be just as much of an issue.
Spotlight hogs are always an issue, whether Optimizers or Actors.
But yeah, there's some other issues, including the stat rolling. Easily solved- Why not have him roll in public?
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I see a pile of posts banding together in defense of the "power gamer" in the OP's group, and frankly, it does not surprise me at all. I guess a lot of very vocal posters feel identified with that player's style and immediately get on the defensive by trying to turn the situation around by "blaming the victim", so to speak. This is not a tirade against power gaming or optimization. No offense intended to anyone, seriously, but I think that the OP's complaints are legitimate and understandable.
Not really, I would had reacted exactly the same way if it were the other guy posting the other side of the story. Sorry, but I don't automatically buy anything that someone post in the web. ANY story has two sides, and hearing only one of the sides is never helpful. Not because I think the OP is lying, I give him the benefit of the doubt. It's because his point of view is biased by his feelings just like the other guy's point of view is too. You are believing the OP because he is the one coming first to tell the story. I'm sure the other guy can make a post telling the other side of the story about how the group is bullying him with a character which is perfectly normal and doing just average baseline damage, but they don't allow him to play with it and I'm sure he'd get a lot of pats in the shoulder too, but not mine.
In short, I do not think that reactions such as "he's not op, is the rest of you that suck at chargen", or accusing the OP of wanting to win an ego war are entirely justified. Different groups seek different things in RPGs, and not everyone is...
I'm aware that different group want different things. That's why I suggested him not to play with that guy, who wants different things. That said... yes, that character is not OP. That damage is the *baseline* damage that *any* human fighter with a 2h sword does at level 5, unless they are trying *on purpose* to do less damage. No combo need, no splatbook needed, no weird race. Just the most basic race (human) with the most basic class (fighter) and the most basic stat roll (elite array), and the most basic fighter feat (weapon specialization). And sure they want to win that ego war, as much as the other guy want. If they wouldn't be interested in winning ego wars, they'll let the other guy win it. They aren't interested in hearing his advices, because (and I quote): " trying to boost us to his level just wouldn't be an option as we'd just be feeding his ego"
Sorry, but I don't automatically buy anything that someone post in the web. ANY story has two sides, and hearing only one of the sides is never helpful. Not because I think the OP is lying, I give him the benefit of the doubt. It's because his point of view is biased by his feelings just like the other guy's point of view is too. You are believing the OP because he is the one coming first to tell the story. I'm sure the other guy can make a post telling the other side of the story about how the group is bullying him with a character which is perfectly normal and doing just average baseline damage, but they don't allow him to play with it and I'm sure he'd get a lot of pats in the shoulder too, but not mine.
Apparently, you missed the part of my post that says "Of course, this takes into account the only side of the story that we have been told".
So things got a little carried away with the stats side of things which is understandable.
The other side of the story is that as bad as this will sound I'm very stubborn, I'm also very direct and I most likely am a large part of the problem in the group, I will admit this as I do feel guilty for it, It's why I come here asking for advice on how to handle this other player as I know my approach just won't work and I can't bare to ruin it for the other 2 players in the group despite their agreements with my points (Each week they're even bringing the concerns to me as I won't avoid the discussion). As said this guy is an ok guy except when it comes to the games.
Before this campaign we had a very stable group of players. Me and the other newbie were part of a group of 3 veteran roleplayers (1 of which is now the GM, who GM'd that campaign too) and this other player. In that campaign he was exactly the same but as the other 2 vets were there it cushioned alot of it and as one of them was quite the rules lawyer he always had someone to answer to with everything he did. Due to life we've lost the 2 vets and of course the GM can't be expected to watch this other guy all the time so now he seems to be trying to get away with things which of course brings it more to our notice. I'll admit I'm not understanding of alot of the rules (Except grapple, that one I can get to grips with hehe...) but I can notice when something isn't what it seems and I'm certainly not one to let something slide when it becomes a group concern.
Sorry if this thread has caused a bit of a commotion, that wasn't intended at all. I am grateful for ALL advice given and hopefully when we do commence gaming again it will have a positive effect for all of us.
Sorry if this thread has caused a bit of a commotion, that wasn't intended at all. I am grateful for ALL advice given and hopefully when we do commence gaming again it will have a positive effect for all of us.
No need to be sorry, for that.
Please return and tell us how it turns out for you guys.
If you think this thread has caused commotion, you should see what happens when someone asks a paladin question :)
I see a pile of posts banding together in defense of the "power gamer" in the OP's group, and frankly, it does not surprise me at all. I guess a lot of very vocal posters feel identified with that player's style and immediately get on the defensive by trying to turn the situation around by "blaming the victim", so to speak. This is not a tirade against power gaming or optimization. No offense intended to anyone, seriously, but I think that the OP's complaints are legitimate and understandable.
If he's powergaming, he's doing it wrong. Meanwhile, the OP sounds pretty questionable since s/he is more interested in a contest of egos than actually solving anything.
First, the group as a whole is fairly new to RPGs. The behavior described can be very disruptive to the general enjoyment and learning process of all involved. Second, the guy is not a power gamer, he is a cheater. "Rolling" only 14s to 18s, always, is plain cheating, there is no way around it, and at least in my case it predisposes me to believe he is the "guilty party".
Having spent the first 50-75% of my gaming time rolling stats, I can say that doesn't sound unlikely at all. When my group used the standard "4d6, take highest 3" method of core 3.x, the group regularly rolled much higher than the elite array or what they would have gotten through point buy, though occasionally someone would get screwed into having bad stats and needing to reroll (in 3.x, there is a minimum ability score rule in the PHB that determines when you need to reroll).
We rolled everything in front of each other, or the GM.
The most statistically unlikely set of ability scores ever rolled was for a friend's girlfriend's bard. We were all sitting around the table, and when it came time to roll her stats, I rolled them myself in front of everyone (and I was the GM, and helping her through the creation process). Her statistics were 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18. Our minds were blown.
Trying to hide the fact that his 2d8 Bastard Sword is oversized to avoid the penalties is an even worse kind of cheating.
Is this confirmed? I didn't notice a confirmation about this during the thread. I tend to take a lot of these things with a grain of salt since
1) the subject of this discussion isn't here to give his/her side of it.2) the subject's character is being discussed by a self-described newbie, and likely doesn't know / understand the mechanics going on with the subject's character.
This demonstrates an utter lack of respect towards his fellow players. Him consulting optimization guides and copying cookie-cutter munchkin builds may not be cheating, but certainly can leave a bitter taste in the mouth of his gaming buddies, who are trying to learn the intricacies of character building on their own.
Which, again, as others who do actually know how to play this game have pointed out, this sounds very unlikely. Wielding a large-sized bastard sword is not even a good idea from a power perspective. Notice you never see anyone doing this on the forums unless it's just to be cute (it's only +2 average damage over a greatsword, but it has a -2 penalty to hit).
Which ironically, even if he wasn't applying the -2 penalty to hit correctly, and even if he wasn't using the feat (making mistakes), then he's still not even doing well as a power gamer, because as others have pointed out, 2d8+8 damage is pretty piddly at 5th level.
A character that deals 2d8+8+power attack (in this case probably +6) damage at level 5 is absolutely nominal. He did take a feat and is incurring an additional -2 attack penalty for the 2d8, so that is hardly an overpowered choice.
And after all it's only a melee character. Could have been an archer, or even a full caster.
correct :)True, but also requires the exotic weapon proficency to wield if I remmeber correctly.A medium bastard sword is a one-handed weapon for a medium creature, and does 1d10 damage.
A large bastard sword is a one-handed weapon for a large creature, therefore counts as a two-handed weapon for a medium creature. It does 2d8 damage, but a medium creature attacks with it at -2.
I think you can wield it without exotic weapon proficiency. But then you're not proficient with it AND it's oversized netting you a total -6 penalty to attack.
That's been discussed ad nauseum in bastard sword/katana/dwarven waraxe/great tjerbute threads. Suffice it to say, a literal reading of the rules associated with these weapons indicates that without the EWP feat or proficiency through a race or class feature, you cannot wield one of these weapons one-handed, period. If you lack martial proficiency, and wield it two-handed, you take the -4 penalty. This goes against the usual rules of how proficiency works, and many people prefer to houserule that one can wield it one-handed with the non-proficiency penalty.
I certainly didn't mean to break off another discussion. If you can't one-hand an appropriately sized bastard sword without exotic proficiency even at the -4 penalty, then of course you also can't two-hand an oversized bastard sword without exotic proficiency.
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I certainly didn't mean to break off another discussion. If you can't one-hand an appropriately sized bastard sword without exotic proficiency even at the -4 penalty, then of course you also can't two-hand an oversized bastard sword without exotic proficiency.
Except that you only need martial (not exotic) weapon proficiency if you use it two-handed.
A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
A character that deals 2d8+8+power attack (in this case probably +6) damage at level 5 is absolutely nominal. He did take a feat and is incurring an additional -2 attack penalty for the 2d8, so that is hardly an overpowered choice.
And after all it's only a melee character. Could have been an archer, or even a full caster.
I think you can wield it without exotic weapon proficiency. But then you're not proficient with it AND it's oversized netting you a total -6 penalty to attack.correct :)True, but also requires the exotic weapon proficency to wield if I remmeber correctly.A medium bastard sword is a one-handed weapon for a medium creature, and does 1d10 damage.
A large bastard sword is a one-handed weapon for a large creature, therefore counts as a two-handed weapon for a medium creature. It does 2d8 damage, but a medium creature attacks with it at -2.
No you can't. A bastard sword is considered to be a two handed weapon for purposed of weilding unless you have the exotic proficiency feat, so with the feat a large 2 handed Bastard sword is treated as a large one handed sword.
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Malachi are going against the "official" ruling again?
So things got a little carried away with the stats side of things which is understandable.
The other side of the story is that as bad as this will sound I'm very stubborn, I'm also very direct and I most likely am a large part of the problem in the group, I will admit this as I do feel guilty for it, It's why I come here asking for advice on how to handle this other player as I know my approach just won't work and I can't bare to ruin it for the other 2 players in the group despite their agreements with my points (Each week they're even bringing the concerns to me as I won't avoid the discussion). As said this guy is an ok guy except when it comes to the games.
You know what? Your position has improved A LOT in my views. I think you both could talk out-of-game and find a position. Being so sincere to him as you have done in this thread, might mean he does the same and acknowledge his own faults. Then maybe you can go to a middle ground.
Kudos to you.