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Crane Wing can only be used by people who are either unarmed, or only wielding a weapon in one hand...that is, people who cannot carry a shield, and thus will not have a shield bonus.
Given that MoMS lets you use two styles at once, and is frequently referenced by people when talking about Crane, I'm a bit surprised that you're apparently overlooking Snapping Turtle Style.
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Worse then a guy with a magical shield +4, correct. Except his shield isn't touch AC, either.
==Aelryinth
Worse then a guy with a magical shield +4, correct. Except his shield isn't touch AC, either.
==Aelryinth
Fairly well balanced out by the fact that the shield provides a +6 (or higher) bonus against ALL attacks in a round instead of just one - and that the wielder can use his Sense Motive skill to replace his Touch AC once a round if he is targeted by a touch attack.
...And snake style isn't limited to melee attacks - unlike crane wing it works on ranged touch attacks as well.
Crane Wing can only be used by people who are either unarmed, or only wielding a weapon in one hand...that is, people who cannot carry a shield, and thus will not have a shield bonus. So even with this new version of Crane Wing that you propose, they will be objectively worse than a guy with a magical shield, or anybody affected by a Shield Spell (for example, an Eidolon).
Again, I have both. There are ways to cast Shield spell with a monk/free hand fighter, there are weapons that give shield bonus (like a Tonfa) when you fight defensively, and there are ways to have a free hand while using a shield (like using the shield as a weapon, Captain America Stile, using a gauntlet as your main weapon, or having a vestigial arm as an Alchemist). In any case, the easiest part, is to be able to cast Shield being a Crane Wing monk
And yet, such an incredibly useful ability isn't commented on or considered imbalanced for Snake Style. You don't see near the complaints about it that you do Crane Wing. So, what's the balancing factor, mm?
Also note that the shield user can't 2h his weapon, either.
==Aelryinth
Unless his weapon is the shield.
Doesn't an Aldori sword grant a shield bonus if you have prof?
And I've always wondered...could you enhance the shield bonus it grants?
Even funnier...you could use a shield as your main weapon and leave your free hand to use Crane Wing. It would actually stack NICELY with IUS in the close combat melee weapon weapon group for mastery purposes.(hah ninja'd).
And remember the 1H restriction just means you can't use 2h weapons. That's different then being able to 2h something. Sure, all your AoO's are going to be one handed, but that's fine. AoO's have always been bonus damage.
==Aelryinth
And remember the 1H restriction just means you can't use 2h weapons. That's different then being able to 2h something. Sure, all your AoO's are going to be one handed, but that's fine. AoO's have always been bonus damage.
==Aelryinth
Ever heard of RAITAYCPIWN, Ryinth?
Doesn't an Aldori sword grant a shield bonus if you have prof?
And I've always wondered...could you enhance the shield bonus it grants?
==Aelryinth
The exotic prof. just lets you finesse it. Aldori Dueling Mastery feat gives a +2 shield bonus when you use it 1-handed, +1 if you 2-hand it, but doesn't say the sword provides the shield bonus.
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And remember the 1H restriction just means you can't use 2h weapons. That's different then being able to 2h something. Sure, all your AoO's are going to be one handed, but that's fine. AoO's have always been bonus damage.
I don't think the wording on the new version allows this anymore. The original did, certainly, but I don't think you can justify that argument with the new phrasing.
The thought of some sort of feat scroll item is pretty neat actually. Not in a literal scroll form, but some form of magic item that gives you a fragment of a warriors knowledge or something to give some of the magic users x factor to martials would be, I think, an interesting back door enhancement to martials. Just make the items effectiveness function off of BAB or something. 1/day @any level, 2/day @ BAB 6+, 3/day @ BAB 11+, etc...
Very similar to the brawler feature really... Anyhow, you get the idea, lets figure out how to give martial characters some lateral capability!
The thought of some sort of feat scroll item is pretty neat actually. Not in a literal scroll form, but some form of magic item that gives you a fragment of a warriors knowledge or something to give some of the magic users x factor to martials would be, I think, an interesting back door enhancement to martials. Just make the items effectiveness function off of BAB or something. 1/day @any level, 2/day @ BAB 6+, 3/day @ BAB 11+, etc...
Small aside on a similar concept:
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Can you explain, then, in what universe the errata'd Crane Wing is "as attractive" as its alternatives?We were shooting to make it on par with some of the other style feats in Ultimate Combat. Whether or not we were successful I think is the point of this thread. Its pretty clear most folks here feel we fell short of the mark.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Just because those people are whiny, loud, and vocal about it doesn't make the change wrong. They're not pissed that the new Crane Wing is actually now on par with other feats in UC, they're pissed that the new Crane Wing isn't the old Crane Wing.
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Just because those people are whiny, loud, and vocal about it doesn't make the change wrong. They're not pissed that the new Crane Wing is actually now on par with other feats in UC, they're pissed that the new Crane Wing isn't the old Crane Wing.Can you explain, then, in what universe the errata'd Crane Wing is "as attractive" as its alternatives?We were shooting to make it on par with some of the other style feats in Ultimate Combat. Whether or not we were successful I think is the point of this thread. Its pretty clear most folks here feel we fell short of the mark.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
No, only Crane Style is worth taking out of the feat chain in my opinion. Sure, Riposte now triggers more often, but Crane Wings function is just awful.
Curious what people would think about simply reducing the original deflection chance on crane wing. The new errata means crane wing does nothing 3 out of 4 times. As the enemy will miss any way half the time, and he will still hit you despite crane wing a quarter of the time.
My thought is return to the original text, but instead of auto deflect make it a 50% mis chance like displacement. So it is still useful but does not totally shut down a TRex. I look at displacement as a similar level ability and an existing mechanic.
Thoughts?
Curious what people would think about simply reducing the original deflection chance on crane wing. The new errata means crane wing does nothing 3 out of 4 times. As the enemy will miss any way half the time, and he will still hit you despite crane wing a quarter of the time.
My thought is return to the original text, but instead of auto deflect make it a 50% mis chance like displacement. So it is still useful but does not totally shut down a TRex. I look at displacement as a similar level ability and an existing mechanic.
Thoughts?
I'd prefer to see something like a scaling bonus on Crane Wing that gets bumped with Crane Riposte (just to help prevent 2-level dips from getting too powerful).
For instance, maybe a 30% miss chance with Crane Wing, and Crane Riposte bumps this to a 60% miss chance or 35/70. Again, it only applies to one attack and revert it to being reactive instead of proactive.
As previously stated, I think the new Crane Wing would be pretty good if the +4 AC bonus could be applied retroactively upon being hit. I think this would put Crane Wing on par with many of the other style feats. Crane Riposte would still seem kind of weak compared to Snake Fang, but Snake Sidewind seems kind of dull, so perhaps that evens out somehow.
FYI, Crane Riposte errata isn't properly updated on the Paizo PRD.
I think they should create a book that enhances skills in a fashion that simulates magical type effects with mundane skills. That would help quite a bit if they would make skills more useful in combat and put them on a mythical scale.
Why not make a skill so good that it lives up to the idea "He could sell ice to an eskimo" or "He could frighten a troll with a glare". Make a Diplomacy capable of causing a suggestion like effect or intimidate a full on fear effect with one glare. Taking the time to make skills far more useful would go a long way to close the gap.
If the design team put their heads together, I'm sure they could make skills very cool to use adding value to the non-caster classes. I'd buy a skill book that gave skills highly detailed entries and allowed high skills levels to accomplish extraordinary feats that were alike to spells.
Erm... So your typical Hypergenius Archmage will now have their full allotment of spells, class abilities, feats... and now can use their skills in even more powerful ways?
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BTW, the Riposte Errata probably won't show up in the PRD anytime soon.
The PRD only reflects what is in the printed books. "Real" Errata is only released with each printing.
In the meantime, the best you can hope for is "FAQ as Errata", with the FAQ giving an update to the Feat's wording.
Make a Diplomacy capable of causing a suggestion like effect or intimidate a full on fear effect with one glare.
Well that latter one specifically would be stealing a Rogue Archetype's schtick...
(Thug: Intimidate->Frightened instead of Shaken if you beat DC by 15 = 4+ round duration, Intimidate not being too hard to jack up)
Erm... So your typical Hypergenius Archmage will now have their full allotment of spells, class abilities, feats... and now can use their skills in even more powerful ways?
---------------------------------------------------
BTW, the Riposte Errata probably won't show up in the PRD anytime soon.
The PRD only reflects what is in the printed books. "Real" Errata is only released with each printing.
In the meantime, the best you can hope for is "FAQ as Errata", with the FAQ giving an update to the Feat's wording.
Sure. So can the other classes. Action economy will prevent abuse. You can't cast a spell and use a skill in the same round.
What's wrong with a hyper genius being able to do mundane things well?
Make a Diplomacy capable of causing a suggestion like effect or intimidate a full on fear effect with one glare.Well that latter one specifically would be stealing a Rogue Archetype's schtick...
(Thug: Intimidate->Frightened instead of Shaken if you beat DC by 15 = 4+ round duration, Intimidate being rather easy to max out vs. a weakly scaling DC)
Doesn't really matter. One archetype ability shouldn't stop a skill from accomplishing something similar.
A spell can do that ability right? Doesn't seem to be a problem when a spell steals an archetype or class ability.
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We were shooting to make it on par with some of the other style feats in Ultimate Combat. Whether or not we were successful I think is the point of this thread. Its pretty clear most folks here feel we fell short of the mark.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I don't think anyone expects you guys to be perfect...and if they do, they are being unrealistic. It's also easy to tell that you are hearing our feedback, and most of us appreciate that.
That said, I would like to say resoundingly that the style feats themselves are not even well balanced compared to the other style feats. Some of them are very good (old Crane, Panther, Snake, or Kobold on a rogue/ninja), some of them are solid on the right build (archon, boar, dragon, mantis, monkey, snapping turtle, tiger, or earth childe if you are facing a primarily giant enemy campaign), and some of them are just plain bad (djinni, efreeti, janni, kirin, marid, shaitan).
I also think a good plan with style feats moving forward, and possibly even issuing errata for the old ones, would be to have them all give greater benefits to straight classed monk characters.
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How about letting a Monk crane winger spend a ki point to use CW the old way (deflect an attack after the fact) ? That way the monk can't do it all day and non-monks can only use the +4 dodge bonus version.
That's an interesting idea. I personally think that anything that gives a straight class monk an edge with style feats over 2 MoM splash builds is well worth considering as well.
We were shooting to make it on par with some of the other style feats in Ultimate Combat. Whether or not we were successful I think is the point of this thread. Its pretty clear most folks here feel we fell short of the mark.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerI don't think anyone expects you guys to be perfect...and if they do, they are being unrealistic. It's also easy to tell that you are hearing our feedback, and most of us appreciate that.
That said, I would like to say resoundingly that the style feats themselves are not even well balanced compared to the other style feats. Some of them are very good (old Crane, Panther, Snake, or Kobold on a rogue/ninja), some of them are solid on the right build (archon, boar, dragon, mantis, monkey, snapping turtle, tiger, or earth childe if you are facing a primarily giant enemy campaign), and some of them are just plain bad (djinni, efreeti, janni, kirin, marid, shaitan).
I also think a good plan with style feats moving forward, and possibly even issuing errata for the old ones, would be to have them all give greater benefits to straight classed monk characters.
djinni, efreeti, marid, and shaitan are awesome. Elemental fist auto hits (even if you miss they take 1d6+wis) and procs a fort or ref save or suck effect. Then there are the area of effect abilities that can be used as battlefield control.
They actually allows you to do a WIS focused MOMS/MOFW who is focused on BC rather than DPR.
I think they should create a book that enhances skills in a fashion that simulates magical type effects with mundane skills. That would help quite a bit if they would make skills more useful in combat and put them on a mythical scale.
Why not make a skill so good that it lives up to the idea "He could sell ice to an eskimo" or "He could frighten a troll with a glare". Make a Diplomacy capable of causing a suggestion like effect or intimidate a full on fear effect with one glare. Taking the time to make skills far more useful would go a long way to close the gap.
If the design team put their heads together, I'm sure they could make skills very cool to use adding value to the non-caster classes. I'd buy a skill book that gave skills highly detailed entries and allowed high skills levels to accomplish extraordinary feats that were alike to spells.
The Laughing Man archetype from Convergent Paths Fey Archetypes can, at high levels, charm with Diplomacy, confusion with Bluff, and inflict panicked with Intimidate, all with no save (just succeed on several free skill checks that you can make during a full attack).
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Just because those people are whiny, loud, and vocal about it doesn't make the change wrong. They're not pissed that the new Crane Wing is actually now on par with other feats in UC, they're pissed that the new Crane Wing isn't the old Crane Wing.Can you explain, then, in what universe the errata'd Crane Wing is "as attractive" as its alternatives?We were shooting to make it on par with some of the other style feats in Ultimate Combat. Whether or not we were successful I think is the point of this thread. Its pretty clear most folks here feel we fell short of the mark.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Just because the PFS GMs were whiny, loud and vocal about it, it doesn't make the old crane wing wrong.
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djinni, efreeti, marid, and shaitan are awesome. Elemental fist auto hits (even if you miss they take 1d6+wis) and procs a fort or ref save or suck effect. Then there are the area of effect abilities that can be used as battlefield control.
They actually allows you to do a WIS focused MOMS/MOFW who is focused on BC rather than DPR.
Only efreeti and shaitan have the auto elemental damage on a miss, which is easily negated by basic resistances. As well, while the Marid condition is situationally good, only shaitan is a true save or suck effect in my opinion. The others are very meh.
Djinni = deafened.
Efreeti = catch fire.
Marid = entangled.
Shaitan = staggered.
Opinions based upon individual perspective, of course.
FYI, Crane Riposte errata isn't properly updated on the Paizo PRD.
Maybe I'm missing something, it has been a big week.
Is there an errata to the errata for the Crane Riposte?
FYI, Crane Riposte errata isn't properly updated on the Paizo PRD.Maybe I'm missing something, it has been a big week.
Is there an errata to the errata for the Crane Riposte?
There was the FAQ that states that, when an enemy misses an attack you use CW on, you can riposte, even if it wasn't a deflection. Though, it being an FAQ, I'm pretty sure it doesn't go into the PRD, which, to my knowledge, only includes the official rules text (as modified by errata). An FAQ does not modify official rules text, the same way errata does.
There was the FAQ that states that, when an enemy misses an attack you use CW on, you can riposte, even if it wasn't a deflection. Though, it being an FAQ, I'm pretty sure it doesn't go into the PRD, which, to my knowledge, only includes the official rules text (as modified by errata). An FAQ does not modify official rules text, the same way errata does.FYI, Crane Riposte errata isn't properly updated on the Paizo PRD.Maybe I'm missing something, it has been a big week.
Is there an errata to the errata for the Crane Riposte?
Thanks.
A FAQ will do with my GM anyways. I keep him informed of these changes even when they are harmful to us, so there will be no problem for it. We use the updated stuff, except fir two things (leadership and crafting feats doubling your WBL, two feats that are REALLY disruptive of gane balance, unlike Crane Wing. They don't make PFS cry, though, so they 'll never be addressed)
That said, I would like to say resoundingly that the style feats themselves are not even well balanced compared to the other style feats. Some of them are very good (old Crane, Panther, Snake, or Kobold on a rogue/ninja), some of them are solid on the right build (archon, boar, dragon, mantis, monkey, snapping turtle, tiger, or earth childe if you are facing a primarily giant enemy campaign), and some of them are just plain bad (djinni, efreeti, janni, kirin, marid, shaitan).
Now this is a good discussion topic.
A. 1) Djinni: barely boosts Elemental Style damage, +2 AC vs AoO is nice though. Prereqs are silly (+9 Bab OR 5th monk?)On that note the BAB of Elemental Fist is too high at +8.
2) Spirit: Deafen enemies? I guess vs casters. Wait, it says regardless they are deafened...why the save then?
Electric Resist is nice, but BAB or Monk level is low.
3) Spin: People surrounding you get damage/deafened. Only good if surrounded and low damage (unarmed + Wis electric but save for 1/2).
B. 1) Efeerti: Barely boosts Elemental Style damage, If you miss you deal damage. So Counters the old Crane Style perfectly. Prereqs are silly (+9 Bab OR 5th monk?)
2) Stance: Fire Resist is nice, but BAB or Monk level is low. You can catch enemies on Fire with a save (this is cool).
3) Touch: Burning hands with your unarmed strike damage +elemental fist + catch on fire. Honestly if it wasn't so limited in use/day, this might be cool.
C. 1) Janni: Less charging penalty to AC, less flanking bonus for enemies.
2) Tempest: If Hit enemies with unarmed strike, no provoke bull rush/trip (+4 bonus) if next attack. So you need BAB 6, Flurry, Haste, TWFing, so you can attack then trip or attack then bull rush.
Another note: low Prereqs which is good.
3) Rush: are always considered to have a running start when jumping. Further, if you jump and make an unarmed strike against the designated opponent, a hit allows you to roll the unarmed strike’s damage dice twice and add the results together before adding modifiers (like Str).
So this means you jump/charge (if lack pounce) and get benefits for it.
Janni isn't bad, though specialized.
D. 1) Kirin: Identify creature get +2 save/AoO AC till encounter over.
Arcana is too high Prereq.
2) If used Kirin to identify add double int to melee/ranged, but swift action so 1/rd. If just limited every attack used Kirin on, it would be balanced. After all, you have to use swift action to use Kirin, then swift to use this one. Why the additional limit of 1/rd?
Arcana Prereq too high still
3) Path: Why would you want to walk around the enemy but still in his threat range?
E. 1) Marid: Barely boosts Elemental Style damage, but incrased threat range. Prereqs are silly (+9 Bab OR 5th monk?)
2) Sprit: Cold Resist is nice, but BAB or Monk level is low. You can Entangle enemies on a save (this is cool)
3) Coldsnap: Ice based Lightning bolt (30 ft line) with your unarmed strike damage +elemental fist + entangle. Honestly if it wasn't so limited in use/day, this might be cool.
F. 1) Shaitin: Barely boosts Elemental Style damage, If you miss you deal damage. So Counters the old Crane Style perfectly. Prereqs are silly (+9 Bab OR 5th monk?)
2) Skin: Acid Resist is nice, but BAB or Monk level is low. You can catch enemies Staggered with a save (this is cool).
3) EarthBlast: 5 ft area with 20 ft column of acid within 30 ft that deals your unarmed strike damage +elemental fist + staggered. Honestly if it wasn't so limited in use/day, this might be cool.
Janni is specialized build (tripper/bull rusher/charger).
The other elemental ones can be good, but prereqs/uses/day.
There was the FAQ that states that, when an enemy misses an attack you use CW on, you can riposte, even if it wasn't a deflection. Though, it being an FAQ, I'm pretty sure it doesn't go into the PRD, which, to my knowledge, only includes the official rules text (as modified by errata). An FAQ does not modify official rules text, the same way errata does.FYI, Crane Riposte errata isn't properly updated on the Paizo PRD.Maybe I'm missing something, it has been a big week.
Is there an errata to the errata for the Crane Riposte?
Thanks.
A FAQ will do with my GM anyways. I keep him informed of these changes even when they are harmful to us, so there will be no problem for it. We use the updated stuff, except fir two things (leadership and crafting feats doubling your WBL, two feats that are REALLY disruptive of gane balance, unlike Crane Wing. They don't make PFS cry, though, so they 'll never be addressed)
Actually, all item creation feats are banned from PFS.
I think a book for "skill monkeys" like Rogues might be interesting. Using multiple skills as prereqs for powers might discourage the lower skill point classes from running away with the Rogue's goodies. It might be cool if such a book included stuff to help emphasize the out of combat parts of the game so that not all class balance needs to be having balanced combat capabilities.
Getting back on topic a little, I think the idea of making martial arts related feats work better for Monks could have merit. Stunning Fist and related feats already have a benefit for Monk levels. Adding options for ki point use to make Monks and Ninjas a little better at Styles might not be bad. Something simple like having one or more of the Crane feats increase the +4 AC bonus Monks can gain with a ki point might work. Another option might be allowing you to spend a ki point to use the +4 AC bonus from Crane Wing a second time per round. Since this would also allow a second AoO from Crane Riposte it might be a significant power up. I don't think that would be over the top compared to existing ways to generate multiple AoOs such as Snake Fang or Come and Get Me. Even if that's not something Paizo decides to explore officially it might be an interesting option for home games where people feel the Monk needs a boost.
@gustavo iglesias - Ultimate Campaign actually advises limiting the WBL gain from crafting to the 25% to 50% range. I'd certainly apply that to new PCs being created above 1st level though there isn't a lot of detail about how or if to enforce it on PCs who use crafting during play. I guess that's really a topic for another thread though.
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Just because those people are whiny, loud, and vocal about it doesn't make the change wrong. They're not pissed that the new Crane Wing is actually now on par with other feats in UC, they're pissed that the new Crane Wing isn't the old Crane Wing.Can you explain, then, in what universe the errata'd Crane Wing is "as attractive" as its alternatives?We were shooting to make it on par with some of the other style feats in Ultimate Combat. Whether or not we were successful I think is the point of this thread. Its pretty clear most folks here feel we fell short of the mark.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I'm kind of wondering why this isn't being "removed" for being a personal attack, but I suppose that only matters if you're on the wrong side of the argument.
Regardless, the new Crane Style feat is not "on par" with the other feats in UC; it's now objectively inferior to the other defensive styles (Snake/Turtle).
Just because those people are whiny, loud, and vocal about it doesn't make the change wrong. They're not pissed that the new Crane Wing is actually now on par with other feats in UC, they're pissed that the new Crane Wing isn't the old Crane Wing.Can you explain, then, in what universe the errata'd Crane Wing is "as attractive" as its alternatives?We were shooting to make it on par with some of the other style feats in Ultimate Combat. Whether or not we were successful I think is the point of this thread. Its pretty clear most folks here feel we fell short of the mark.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerI'm kind of wondering why this isn't being "removed" for being a personal attack, but I suppose that only matters if you're on the wrong side of the argument.
Regardless, the new Crane Style feat is not "on par" with the other feats in UC; it's now objectively inferior to the other defensive styles (Snake/Turtle).
I'd argue that it's reasonably close to the other feats in UC, but that's because most feats (in all books) are just pretty awful. It's not a matter that CW was far overpowered (I'd argue it needed a little bit of a nerf, but not to the point they brought it to, now, even with the FAQ on Crane Riposte) but that the design team wasn't near ambitious enough with the rest of the feats. There should be more feats like the old CW (though, again, probably not quite as powerful), not less.
Actually, all item creation feats are banned from PFS.There was the FAQ that states that, when an enemy misses an attack you use CW on, you can riposte, even if it wasn't a deflection. Though, it being an FAQ, I'm pretty sure it doesn't go into the PRD, which, to my knowledge, only includes the official rules text (as modified by errata). An FAQ does not modify official rules text, the same way errata does.FYI, Crane Riposte errata isn't properly updated on the Paizo PRD.Maybe I'm missing something, it has been a big week.
Is there an errata to the errata for the Crane Riposte?
Thanks.
A FAQ will do with my GM anyways. I keep him informed of these changes even when they are harmful to us, so there will be no problem for it. We use the updated stuff, except fir two things (leadership and crafting feats doubling your WBL, two feats that are REALLY disruptive of gane balance, unlike Crane Wing. They don't make PFS cry, though, so they 'll never be addressed)
I know.
That's why, although they are way more powerful and disruptive than Crane Wing, they'll never be errataed or addressed.Ask any optimizer to build a character with old Crane Wing, then ask him to build same charcter with new Crane Wing, but *double wealth by level*. You'll see the difference.
Then ask him to build same character, but with Leadership and a cohort. Specially a bard cohort built to craft items for him, and make perform to increase his attack and damage, or a Synthesist cohort to be his mount.
Then we can talk about how powerful is to deflect one attack per turn.
EDIT:
To be honest, I *DO* think Crane Wing was wrong, from a design phylosophy point of view. Things that work, no matter of what, are wrong. Auto-hit or auto-miss are wrong. New "Knock" spell is much much better than the old 3.5 spell, for example. However, I'd like to see that philosophy applied through the whole game. Including Deflect Arrows, but also Magic Missile, Maze, or Reverse Gravity. It's kind of frustrating that Crane Wing get the nerf because it's an absolute protection with no chance to miss from a certain type of attack, but, say, Mind Blank is ok to be absolute protection against some other stuff.
Janni Rush combined with Vital Strike as you double unarmed damage, would Vital be doubled or treated like Str bonus and not?
Ever heard of RAITAYCPIWN, Ryinth?And remember the 1H restriction just means you can't use 2h weapons. That's different then being able to 2h something. Sure, all your AoO's are going to be one handed, but that's fine. AoO's have always been bonus damage.
==Aelryinth
Just because you're using that to justify the nuttiest interpretation of defensive fighting I've ever seen is no reason to bring that gawdawful acronym into a polite conversation, Kudaku!
:)
==Aelryinth
Ever heard of RAITAYCPIWN, Ryinth?And remember the 1H restriction just means you can't use 2h weapons. That's different then being able to 2h something. Sure, all your AoO's are going to be one handed, but that's fine. AoO's have always been bonus damage.
==Aelryinth
Just because you're using that to justify the nuttiest interpretation of defensive fighting I've ever seen is no reason to bring that gawdawful acronym into a polite conversation, Kudaku!
:)
==Aelryinth
As long as we're on the same page, Ryinth ;)
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Why not put the feat back to what it was but that you can only use the deflect once per character level per day? That way it scales and isn't invincible. Ta da! ;)
Why not put the feat back to what it was but that you can only use the deflect once per character level per day? That way it scales and isn't invincible. Ta da! ;)
I think I could have played with that. Again though, in a 10 minutes of adventuring a day game, it doesn't matter much if it's restricted in such a way.
If you had the feat retroactively apply a 50% miss chance against one attack that just hit it would retain a lot of the function and thematic appeal of the original and yet it would be half the power of the original feat.
instead they took a feat that might have been a little too good and reduced it in power, by, like, 95%.
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Can they? Yes.
Will they? They say no.
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Paizo: Putting careful thought and consideration in to all aspects of rules changes since never.
Why not put the feat back to what it was but that you can only use the deflect once per character level per day? That way it scales and isn't invincible. Ta da! ;)I think I could have played with that. Again though, in a 10 minutes of adventuring a day game, it doesn't matter much if it's restricted in such a way.
Doesn't really make it much use for anyone that goes for more than the 10 minute workday, though. I think even the current state is a better idea than that. (But then, I'm really not a fan of very limited use mechanics. Grit/panache/ki are fine, because you can regain them as you go. Even spell slots aren't a hard limit).
There are some other powers in the game which can act pretty effectively as nat 20 suppressors. The Dual-Cursed Oracle’s Misfortune is already somewhat infamous for this in one of my groups, and Divine Interference looks pretty similar. It might be worth noting that they both can only be used once per day on a particular enemy.
The difference between being hit on a nat 20 or not at all might seem small, but high damage monsters can often kill a PC in 2-3 hits, so it actually makes a pretty big difference. I don't know if putting a once per enemy per day nat 20 suppression power into the Crane feat chain is really necessary, but I'm not sure if it would be beyond the pale either. Granted, you can already suppress a nat 20 once per round using Total Defense, but I can understand why some folks think that might be awfully boring to play through.
I still like the idea of just making the +4 AC bonus a reaction to being hit, but I could imagine more than one possible solution.