So, this is going to be a match to the Deth between four world renowned, fist fighting, heavy weight champions of the world!!1
In the Blue corner, standing a 6'4" at 210 pounds is... THE FIGHTER!!!!!
In the Yellow corner, standing in at 5'8" and at 195 pounds is... THE MONK!!!
and in the Green corner, standing in at 6'0" and at 200 pounds is... THE BRAWLER!!!
And finally, in the red corner, standing in at a whopping 6'6" and at 235 lbs is.... THE BARBARIAN!!!!
So this will be a contest to see who is, the best unarmed champion in the world!!!
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!! PLACE YOUR BETS, BRING YOUR ARGUMENTS AND...
LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!
If we assume across 20 levels with WBL as standard, no buffs save equipment, and the only proviso that they be fighting "unarmed" I think the overall win lies with the Barbarian, with the fighter a close second. From what I have seen the brawler is OK, and an improvement on the monk, who comes in last.
However: Tettori is a fearsome grappler, and might win it all on grappling, unless he's up against a fighter-grappler specialist who could probably beat him.
Otherwise, the barbarian is likely to win it on damage (and he can grow claws, gain natural armour, etc), and the fighter on maneuvers (he gets to rack up his Weapon Training on them and has other favoured class advantages).
Mmm. If the Barbarian is an Invulnerable Rager he can probably slug it out and just outlast them all.
The flavor spin was for fun, but the true question can be broken down into parts:
1) Who is the strongest in DPS
2) Who has the best endurance/survivability?
3) Who is the best in "real-world" parties (i.e. not the best in theory crafting but who would be able to add the most to a party).
The flavor spin was for fun, but the true question can be broken down into parts:
1) Who is the strongest in DPS
Either barbarian of fighter. Fighter tends to do slightly better vs. higher AC, barbarian against lower. Because of rage and weapon training, their accuracy outshines that of the brawler and monk by far and if you don't hit you don't do damage.
2) Who has the best endurance/survivability?
AC belongs to the fighter, hit points and saves to the barbarian. The monk has excellent saves but poorest hit points, the brawler is more moderate in both.
On the whole, I'd give it to the barbarian.
3) Who is the best in "real-world" parties (i.e. not the best in theory crafting but who would be able to add the most to a party).
We ran some tests once on whether a barbarian or monk would bring more to the party, and the barbarian won hands down. The fighter brings more potential flexibility in combat than the barbarian but less out of combat ability. The brawler, well from what I have seen he's a bit more effective than the monk in combat, but not as much as the fighter or barbarian by a long chalk.
From what I can see the Fighter has the best general AC and damage output, the barbarian has the best staying power (hp) and more out of combat abilities, the brawler is the most flexible at dealing with odd tactical situations due to martial flexibility, and the monk is the most overall resistant to being neutralized due to high saves, immunities , and high touch AC.
I think there are situations where one of the four completely outpaces the others, but across the board they all have situations where they flourish and others where they struggle.
Ok
Damage wise: Brawler and Monk will have the advantage with Pummeling style+flurry on the charge then Dragon style for the rest of the full attacks.
Defenses: I expect the Barbarian to have the highest saves+hp. Also if allowed to go beast totem then he will have really good AC. I think Monk will probably have the best AC.
Real World Parties: Probably Barb and Brawler. Barb for being untouchable while Brawler will have damage and the ability to grab feats as necessary for the situation.
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Against each-other? Going unarmed? The monk - no question. Starting at level 4 - a drunken master monk can stay out of range indefinietly and scorching ray any of the others to death.
With barkskin he probably also has the best AC since none can get an AoNA as their neck slot is being used by the AoMF.
Fighting unarmed? It depends upon the level. Probably brawler if he's smart enough to go manuver crazy on the fighter/barbarian. Those extra few points on their manuver rolls add up.
I think people are overestimating the barbarian. The best way to fight unarmed is by dumping strength and getting an agile AoMF since you never get 1.5x strength anyway (without dragon style which precludes pummeling style). And to a lesser degree - that cancels out the fighter's advantage of heavier armor.
And going unarmed also negates the barbaian's high level advantage of pounce - since all of them would grab pummeling charge.
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Are we allowing archetypes? Cause if we are then I'd put monk much higher. Kata Master will negate a lot of incoming damage via opportune parry and riposte. Martial artist has fighter only feats and the ability to bypass the barbarian's DR. Sohei has flurry of blows, weapon training, and access to brawling armor. Harrow Warden has Idiot Strike to pugwampi everyone with a poor will save.
I'd also include slayer in the mix. Studied Target + Enforcer + Shatter Defenses + Sneak Attack and Sap Master is very dangerous.
Well best saves against magic stuff lol.
Also why does Pummeling style Preclude Dragon? Why can't they take both and swap to better style depending on fight?
It does depend on what exactly is being measured.
Though to be honest, if you optimize a barbarian, it will pretty much bury every other martial (you might make a case for a paladin).
Monks drop out early, since they are not even in the running.
Brawlers are OK in damage output, but are glass canons (they will not, however, exceed a CaGM barbarian, pretty much nothing will). They also don't get weapon training, which is a big deal since iterative attacks have to land for damage to be good. Also if you want dragon ferocity, you need stunning fist, which is generally a waste of a feat. Best brawler build dips a bit of master of many styles monk so you can pummeling style with your dragon style. Then you can have properly obnoxious damage.
Fighters make the best AC tanks (but not by much, you can get close or maybe even match on a barbarian if you build for it). Their damage is also solid. However saves and skills are bother flat out lousy.
Barbarians with the right build are amazingly durable, do extremely high damage, and can put outmind bending tricks like auto dispel. I don't like tracking resources or I'd play more barbarians (at high levels it's fairly moot, but you have to get there).
I think people are overestimating the barbarian. The best way to fight unarmed is by dumping strength and getting an agile AoMF since you never get 1.5x strength anyway. And to a lesser degree - that cancels out the fighter's advantage of heavier armor.
I take it you've never heard of Dragon Style?
THE go-to Style Feat for any Str based Unarmed fighter?
And going unarmed also negates the barbaian's high level advantage of pounce - since all of them would grab pummeling charge.
Unarmed Strikes + 2 Claws + Bite >>> Unarmed Strikes.
Alternatively, the Barbarian has many other worthy totems. And can even *GASP* take non-Totem Rage Powers instead.
Hell, there's some nice ones you can get up to if you focus on the new Animal Fury line. Animal Fury + Savage Jaw + Raging Grappler = Grapple + Trip.
As a Free action.
And even if you were correct, the Brawler would still beat the Monk in sheer numbers, since it can snag Fighter only Feats. They have the same numbers boosters, except Brawler can grab Weapon Focus/Spec and the Greater versions where the Monk cannot.
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And even if you were correct, the Brawler would still beat the Monk in sheer numbers, since it can snag Fighter only Feats. They have the same numbers boosters, except Brawler can grab Weapon Focus/Spec and the Greater versions where the Monk cannot.
Right - that's why I said that the brawler would win when fighting unarmed.
Monk would only win GOING unarmed due to using ki powers like crazy. Though they might win if they just jacked their AC through the roof.
My money is on the Barb, especially Invun Rager. The amount of punishment they can absorb, especially with Improved Stalwart, is almost supernatural. Taking 20 damage off of each hit will really eat into the DPR of any of the others. To me, Barbs represent the best non magical class in the game.
Before Pummeling Style I would agree with you. But taking some damage off each round isn't nearly as big of a deal as from each attack.
Also a Brawler can just use Martial versatility to grab Armor Penetration+greater armor penetration...
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Again, Martial Artist Monk or Steel Breaker Brawler will go through all DR like it's not there. The others have Pummeling Style to overcome most of it. The Barbarian DR advantage is no longer there post ACG.
Do people actually use Martial Artist? I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I can see how it's not super hard to get through Barb DR. And really that's only one of the things the Barb is bringing to the table. Regardless of DR, I'd still go with the Barb, especially for the third question about overall usefulness.
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Again, Martial Artist Monk or Steel Breaker Brawler will go through all DR like it's not there. The others have Pummeling Style to overcome most of it. The Barbarian DR advantage is no longer there post ACG.Do people actually use Martial Artist? I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I can see how it's not super hard to get through Barb DR. And really that's only one of the things the Barb is bringing to the table. Regardless of DR, I'd still go with the Barb, especially for the third question about overall usefulness.
I have an unarmed martial artist in PFS. I took out three of the four robots at level 5 in the Silver Mount Collection entry thanks to Exploit Weakness.
My AC is at 24 with Mage Armor up, I have a +12 to hit on a flurry thanks to the +to hit from Exploit Weakness, and I hit for 1d8+7 per hit thanks to 16 STR, Trait, Specialization, and Amulet. Once I have more than two attacks, I'll be taking Pummeling Style + Charge for crit effects.
It's a damm fine archetype, especially in season 6.
A lot of the effectiveness of the Brawler will depend on how well the player knows the available feats and how strategically (s)he implements them.
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Tetori... /end threadCombat maneuvers suck.../end thread
Edit: Because you can full attack while grappled now. So all your efforts to grab these other guys just results in you getting hit, when you could have been hitting them.
Full attacking while pinned....... Yeah, about that..... Good luck.
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Full attacking while pinned....... Yeah, about that..... Good luck.Tetori... /end threadCombat maneuvers suck.../end thread
Edit: Because you can full attack while grappled now. So all your efforts to grab these other guys just results in you getting hit, when you could have been hitting them.
I said grappled. And it's pretty commonly known that combat maneuvers become less and less useful as you level up.
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I said grappled. And it's pretty commonly known that combat maneuvers become less and less useful as you level up.Full attacking while pinned....... Yeah, about that..... Good luck.Tetori... /end threadCombat maneuvers suck.../end thread
Edit: Because you can full attack while grappled now. So all your efforts to grab these other guys just results in you getting hit, when you could have been hitting them.
Haha you crack me up, I really don't want to take the time to prove you wrong so if someone could find a link to any number of "tetori are the exception to monks suck" threads I would greatly appreciate it.
I said grappled. And it's pretty commonly known that combat maneuvers become less and less useful as you level up.Full attacking while pinned....... Yeah, about that..... Good luck.Tetori... /end threadCombat maneuvers suck.../end thread
Edit: Because you can full attack while grappled now. So all your efforts to grab these other guys just results in you getting hit, when you could have been hitting them.
So you don't actually know why?
It's because of Size bonuses! Combat Maneuvers become usless when monsters start getting huge bonuses from size.
Against appripriate sized characters you can expect to succeed a Combat Maneuver on a 5 or even less. My level 6 dude could beat most CMDs at his level on a 1 if that didn't auto fail.
Also Tetoris can grapple check as a standard, move, and I believe a swift action. So move up, standard action grapple+constrict dmg, swift action pin+constrict dmg. Now you're -6 on attack roles toward the Tetori. Next turn he grapples for dmg+constrict 3 times for the equivalent of 3 full BAB attacks that have a constrict rider.
The Fighter can pick favored class benefit and get +10 or +20 vs Grappled if he wants to. Add in weapon training and he's not going to lose vs a grapple attack.
The Barbarian can strength surge for his level in bonus to any strength check, including Grapple Checks, which is pretty much auto win. And since we're rage cycling and he's tireless...
Not sure what the Brawler has vs Grapple.
==Aelryinth
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The Fighter can pick favored class benefit and get +10 or +20 vs Grappled if he wants to. Add in weapon training and he's not going to lose vs a grapple attack.
The Barbarian can strength surge for his level in bonus to any strength check, including Grapple Checks, which is pretty much auto win. And since we're rage cycling and he's tireless...Not sure what the Brawler has vs Grapple.
==Aelryinth
ok sure he has a +20 to CMB, but his cmd is trash while the tetori has an amazing CMB and CMD. Not to mention that low cmb the fighter had won't help prevent the tetori from grappling and slamming that fighter into the ground.
no the fighter gets the bonus to his CMD not his CMB. The barbarian can Strength surge for his CMD as well.
ok sure he has a +20 to CMB, but his cmd is trash while the tetori has an amazing CMB and CMD. Not to mention that low cmb the fighter had won't help prevent the tetori from grappling and slamming that fighter into the ground.
Yeah, one of the human fighter racial class level bonuses you can pick is +CMD for 2 combat maneuvers. Grapple is an easy choice, then you can do trip or whatever (disarm is kind of pointless since you generally have piles of bonuses there, and at 20th it's impossible with your main weapon). It is easy to have a truly sick CMD against grapple on a fighter. Monks just don't have access to enough shenanigans to overcome it if you build a fighter to resist such things.
Strength surge on the barbarian, as mentioned, covers the same thing.
A good 20th level barbarian (assume CaGM build) will have a functional grapple CMD of 20 (BAB)+6 (dex) +16 (str) +5 deflection, +20 (strength surge) = 67. I'm not sure how your monk will reliably top that.
The fighter will be a touch behind this, with probably 20(BAB) + 20 (Class bonus) +5 (deflection) + 12 (str) and +5 dex= 62 still a tough row to hoe for a monk. Since fighters have pretty lousy class skills, taking the class level bonus isn't a bad idea.
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My Tetori's CMD topped close to 80 if I remember correctly.
Dwarven tetori
Bab 20
Strength 16 base + 6 + 6(eldritch heritage) +4
Dex 16+6
Wisdom16+6
Turtle style 2
Deflection 5
Ring of ki focus...
This is what I remember off the top of my head. There is a bunch more that eludes me, I'll look for the sheet when I get off work.
They have good saves - and their fort will be top - but better overall than the monk?Ok
Defenses: I expect the Barbarian to have the highest saves+hp. Also if allowed to go beast totem then he will have really good AC. I think Monk will probably have the best AC.
superstition or whatever.
I like like nulticlass, brawler2/quiggongMasterOfStyles to use pummeling AND dragon styles, barkskin, etc.
Strength surge on the barbarian, as mentioned, covers the same thing.A good 20th level barbarian (assume CaGM build) will have a functional grapple CMD of 20 (BAB)+6 (dex) +16 (str) +5 deflection, +20 (strength surge) = 67. I'm not sure how your monk will reliably top that.
Strength Surge is only once per round. The Tetori gets the Grab ability, which in addition to giving her an additional +4 to grapple checks allows her to begin a grapple after any successful unarmed attack. So the tetori only has to hit with a second attack to initiate a grapple without having to deal with strength surge.
I said grappled. And it's pretty commonly known that combat maneuvers become less and less useful as you level up.Full attacking while pinned....... Yeah, about that..... Good luck.Tetori... /end threadCombat maneuvers suck.../end thread
Edit: Because you can full attack while grappled now. So all your efforts to grab these other guys just results in you getting hit, when you could have been hitting them.
So you don't actually know why?
It's because of Size bonuses! Combat Maneuvers become usless when monsters start getting huge bonuses from size.
Against appripriate sized characters you can expect to succeed a Combat Maneuver on a 5 or even less. My level 6 dude could beat most CMDs at his level on a 1 if that didn't auto fail.
Also Tetoris can grapple check as a standard, move, and I believe a swift action. So move up, standard action grapple+constrict dmg, swift action pin+constrict dmg. Now you're -6 on attack roles toward the Tetori. Next turn he grapples for dmg+constrict 3 times for the equivalent of 3 full BAB attacks that have a constrict rider.
You want to reread the greater grabble, and the rapid grabble feats. The tetori Can only do what you say if he maintained a grabble as a standart action. He is good but he i not the winner you make him out to be. With turtle style there is a trick to get a AOO grabble that allow him to pin in round one but only if his opponent miss with a Attack.
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Strength surge on the barbarian, as mentioned, covers the same thing.A good 20th level barbarian (assume CaGM build) will have a functional grapple CMD of 20 (BAB)+6 (dex) +16 (str) +5 deflection, +20 (strength surge) = 67. I'm not sure how your monk will reliably top that.
Strength Surge is only once per round. The Tetori gets the Grab ability, which in addition to giving her an additional +4 to grapple checks allows her to begin a grapple after any successful unarmed attack. So the tetori only has to hit with a second attack to initiate a grapple without having to deal with strength surge.
He has to hit with an unarmed attack. WHile the monk has great defenses, he has the lowest BAB of everyone else involved here, and the fewest bonuses in class to get it up.
The fighter and barb aren't worrying about grappling the Tetori. They are basically immune to BEING grappled. Those two can conceivably kill the monk with 1 or 2 rounds of full attacks.
Also keep in mind that EVERY time the monk attacks, it provokes an AoO at full BAB from the Barbarian. It is totally possible and highly likely the barbarian will kill the monk on the monk's turn!
==Aelryinth
It is also worth noting that if a grapple provokes an AOO, the damage the grappler takes is added to the CMD. That's going to stop things in a hurry.
And if you allow 3E, Close Quarters Fighting is the anti-Grab defense, triggering an AoO on ANY grapple attempt. The perfect thing to stop all those constricting bastards.
==Aelryinth
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It depends on the barbarian, it depends on the fighter, it depends on the monk, and it depends on the brawler, of course.
From practical experience (read: my group's party in Iron Gods) I'd say it's about even odds between the Pummeling Style brawler and the invulnerable rager barbarian. The brawler can hit like a Mack truck if she lands more than two attacks, but the barbarian's got the damage resistance and the HP to easily laugh off one or two good pummels. He hits more than once per round like a chainsaw through butter.
For reference: Tharja the brawler has 24 Strength, taking into account her +4 Belt of Giant's Strength, along with a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists. She can do 1d10+17 bludgeoning damage per punch. Jagg the barbarian has 24 Strength while he's raging, and a +2 vicious chainsaw with gravity clip. He can do about 6d6+21 slashing damage to a target and 1d6 unstoppable damage to himself with each swing. Tharja only has 118 hit points at tenth level, while Jagg has approximately 200. I'm spitballing Jagg's chainsaw and damage output because I haven't seen his character sheet.
Both sets of damage numbers above, however, include Power Attack (-3 to hit/+6 damage for Tharja, because her fists are one-handed weapons, -3 to hit/+9 damage for Jagg because chainsaws are two-handed.)
The Fighter can pick favored class benefit and get +10 or +20 vs Grappled if he wants to. Add in weapon training and he's not going to lose vs a grapple attack.
The Barbarian can strength surge for his level in bonus to any strength check, including Grapple Checks, which is pretty much auto win. And since we're rage cycling and he's tireless...Not sure what the Brawler has vs Grapple.
==Aelryinth
His maneuver training.
Sadly this means that whatever the monk can do in a maneuver, the brawler can do better. He can also wear brawling armour for an additional bonus.
Monks were good at maneuvers not for their CMB but because of wisdom bonus to CMD, which meant once a monk succeeded at a grapple it was very hard to break out of it. The brawler gets to be better offensively AND equal defensively to the monk, so he wins out on this one.
fighter wins because the fighter had to tank INT so much that he doesn't see what is so funny about the monk being in the line-up while the barbar and the brawler die laughing at the thought of a monk being in the contest.
Sadly the monk is great at all the defensive factors save one: having a good offence. The monk will be less of a liability in any given party situation, but will struggle to contribute anything like as much. Some monk archetypes are OK, but with a monk you pretty much have to be playing an archetype to get anywhere at all, while the other classes can go for it from the base class.
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It depends on the barbarian, it depends on the fighter, it depends on the monk, and it depends on the brawler, of course.
From practical experience (read: my group's party in Iron Gods) I'd say it's about even odds between the Pummeling Style brawler and the invulnerable rager barbarian. The brawler can hit like a Mack truck if she lands more than two attacks, but the barbarian's got the damage resistance and the HP to easily laugh off one or two good pummels. He hits more than once per round like a chainsaw through butter.
For reference: Tharja the brawler has 24 Strength, taking into account her +4 Belt of Giant's Strength, along with a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists. She can do 1d10+17 bludgeoning damage per punch. Jagg the barbarian has 24 Strength while he's raging, and a +2 vicious chainsaw with gravity clip. He can do about 6d6+21 slashing damage to a target and 1d6 unstoppable damage to himself with each swing. Tharja only has 118 hit points at tenth level, while Jagg has approximately 200. I'm spitballing Jagg's chainsaw and damage output because I haven't seen his character sheet.
Both sets of damage numbers above, however, include Power Attack (-3 to hit/+6 damage for Tharja, because her fists are one-handed weapons, -3 to hit/+9 damage for Jagg because chainsaws are two-handed.)
You were quite close. 6d6+22 while power attacking and raging with the gravity clip. Though generally when I am Grav Clipping I am vital striking for 10d6+22, really need to get an item to enlarge person myself to boost that up to 14d6. I will rename my chainsaw "Shadowrun"
Some monk archetypes are OK, but with a monk you pretty much have to be playing an archetype to get anywhere at all, while the other classes can go for it from the base class.
Not to mention many of the best monk archetypes involve jettisoning a lot of the traditional monk flavor. My last monk wore a breastplate, used a two-handed sword, and focused on mounted combat supplemented with a couple handy spell-like abilities. The last monk in our group before that was a longbowman who focused on pumping out shots as fast as possible.
Some monk archetypes are OK, but with a monk you pretty much have to be playing an archetype to get anywhere at all, while the other classes can go for it from the base class.Not to mention many of the best monk archetypes involve jettisoning a lot of the traditional monk flavor. My last monk wore a breastplate, used a two-handed sword, and focused on mounted combat supplemented with a couple handy spell-like abilities. The last monk in our group before that was a longbowman who focused on pumping out shots as fast as possible.
Here's hoping the Unchained Monk is a BIG improvement.
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If they're fighting each other all out - I still say that a drunken master monk would beat any of the other three with ease unless they're locked in a small room. He just keeps his distance with his massive movement speed and scorching rays them to death with infinite ki.
As to the fighter getting massive bonuses vs grapple via favored class bonuses - you're edging into Schrodenger's fighter territory.