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I think it's reasonable to insist the players maintain a minimum maturity level. Can't handle the heat? Don't roll the dice.
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I just call them out on the table with their cheating. Like stop the game, and call them out.
Friends dont ruin your game by dice-roll cheating (they ruin your game by continuously arguing about rules, which is another issue), because if they do, they aren't your friends. Friends don't go #2 where their dice land. If they aren't my friend, I have no problems dropping them from the game until they get their you-know-what together.
Maybe they needed more hugs as a child, or have other issues, but I'm here to GM, not to be their shrink. I have enough issues to deal with running the game without babysitting a child (because really, who else would cheat at a frigging tabletop RPG game) and ruin it for adults who ARE my friends and don't do that.
Maybe its because im getting old, or have been doing this RPG stuff for 20 years, but this is one of my huge pet peeves.
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Why would anyone cheat in a fantasy simulator?
If someone really cares that much about being the "most powerful invincible super badass" then they should go "play pretend" like we all did when we were younger (and may still do)
The whole point of the rules is to limit what you do.
The idea that the players might be fudging "just to stay alive" is one reason I suggested Hero Points.
@Ravingdork - I had a nice looking set of amber "firefly" dice with a d20 which seemed prone to both nat 1's and nat 20's, which was fun as a DM. I eventually noticed that it didn't quite sit flat on one side and had to stop using it though. I've always meant to buy another similar d20 so I can use the set again since the other dice seem OK.
For some reason I usually seem much better at finding dice which tend to roll low. I sometimes almost begin to wonder if dice manufacturers might make a bunch of "duds" so players will buy lots of dice to find some which roll well. Of course that's ridiculous. There's probably just an invisible supernatural force which controls the outcome of my d20 rolls.
As an aside, I like Gamescience dice. I think they roll better. Probably the difference is not enough to mention, but some dice are just made badly.
Funny stories about people microwaving dice abound.
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I play with a fellow who probably cheats but no one at the table is too concerned or willing to confront him about it. You see, his life is the most tragic mess every other day of the week: he can't stand his job and doesn't make much money so can't afford to change careers. His spouse is unpleasant, demanding, does not work herself and is so jealous that she's convinced he's sleeping with me every time he comes out to play despite the fact that the DM is my husband and my son as well as another player's son frequently join the game with us. His children bring him no joy and he never has any free time except for the 6 hours he plays with us each week. I'm fairly sure that every trip out to play with us incurs an equal number of hours scrapping with his crazy possessive wife. He is in debt up to his eyeballs and, even after receiving a windfall following his mother's death, he has no idea how to manage his finances so things only get worse and worse on that front. Did I mention his mother died not long ago? He is no position to kick his spouse to the curb because they have two kids together so she would just rake him over the coals for alimony and child support until such time as maybe he hung himself. And, being that he is a fully grown adult man in his mid-30's, he's not interested in hearing the honest truth that he should live within his means and consider leaving the fat cow who's been pretty pivotal in ruining his life or any other advice that might be helpful.
In short, cheating at D&D is the only fun, rewarding, successful time this guy ever gets. He is miserable the rest of his week where life and "the rules" kick him squarely in the nuts at every turn. I'd prefer he not cheat but I prefer even more that I not be just another thing in the litany of things that make his life crappy day in and day out. In the grand scheme of things, it's only a game. If the trivial nature of a game shouldn't matter enough to make a guy want to cheat, it is also trivial to the point where it doesn't matter enough for me to take a cheater to task when all he desperately wants is to feel empowered for a few hours a week out of his truly awful life.
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There are a lot of ways to define "cheating". I've often seen people remain silent about rules they know would affect outcomes in the game, especially if those outcomes would be bad for another player's PC. Sometimes we'll quietly hint at the rule to the relevant player without "outing" it to the DM and let the player decide. Other times somebody will point it out with relish, and in one group the act of pointing out a rule to hurt or mess with another PC has been named after a certain player who really enjoys it.
Failing to remind the DM to take his AoO wouldn't be cheating in most people's book, but failing to mention that energy drain inflicts twice as many negative levels on a critical hit might be. Some players find it very amusing. Others find it mildly amusing but slightly annoying.
@ABCoLD - I think the sharp edged Game Science style dice tend to be a little more consistent, but they don't come in so many interesting colors. We used to have a guy who would melt dice in a skillet, put screws through them, etc. One time in the middle of a game he put a d20 on the floor, grabbed a 22lb weight, and smashed the die. Then he used blu-tack to put it back together and would sometimes roll it as a joke during games. He stated that by displaying the punished dice to the survivors he could inspire better rolling. I doubt he really believed it.
Like someone said, I recall my 1's as much as my 20's. The most excitement in the game is the chance of death.....if you fudge, where is the gasp of excitement when you succeed?
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Like someone said, I recall my 1's as much as my 20's. The most excitement in the game is the chance of death.....if you fudge, where is the gasp of excitement when you succeed?
You know that sentence in Conan when he describes what is best in life ? Some people want this ALL THE TIME !!!
And I do not remember that he mentions fumbling with his weapon and wildly missing his enemies ;-)
Oooh, instead of claiming Natural 20's on every roll, even d6s, declare a 1 on all rolls (or any roll immediately after a cheater).And give yourself a morale penalty of -15 on everything.
The dozenth time you've screwed the party up, they'll be begging for open, clearly visible rolls.
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That would never fly with any of my groups. We all insist on transparent play. It's not a question of trust, just proper etiquette. Gamer friends are plentiful here, so there'd be no reason for me to settle for such a situation. Unfortunate that some feel they don't have much of a choice. The very idea of humoring a player who prefers to roll privately, no matter how honest their reputation, would come across as bizarre to anyone I game with.
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Like someone said, I recall my 1's as much as my 20's. The most excitement in the game is the chance of death.....if you fudge, where is the gasp of excitement when you succeed?You know that sentence in Conan when he describes what is best in life ? Some people want this ALL THE TIME !!!
And I do not remember that he mentions fumbling with his weapon and wildly missing his enemies ;-)
"Conan! What is best in life?"
"To fumble your weapon before your enemies, to see your arrows fly into the brush before you, and to hear the mocking laughter of their women."
I experienced one player in my group cheating as well, while I was the GM. It was a system where you had to roll more than 1D20 for check. So I randomly checked the table and calculated his total outcome. He wasn't my friend , and actually I didn't really like him , so I didn't inform the other players about it.
Later I contacted him at skype telling him that he should stop that cheating thing because it isn't a solo game it is a group game and everybody fails (in my opinion fails make the game awesome and so much fun).
Around 2 months later I played with him (this time as a player not as a GM) and kept an eye on him , and could cleary see that he turned some dice to his Advantage. I told the GM (my good friend) about this and since then he has been banned from our gaming group. In our opinion fails are what makes the game so awesome, who didn't have to roll only a 5+ and failed with a 1, "book i like , story good".
In our current group the GM can't see the dice very well , because he is sitting a bit far away to control the Sound , beamer and stuff , but basically everyone is keeping an eye on the others roll. So who would even dare to cheat playing in a group of RL friends
Well, I have yet to see a table where the players werent required to roll in the open. When you're playing with mostly strangers, everything starts in the open.
For GMs it's been a question of style; certain like to do everything in the open, I like to do it behind a screen since I dont consider myself competent enough as an encounter designer yet (and I have come close to complete slaughter).
My players are indispensable because they are my best friends. They are, in every sense of the word: irreplaceable. To drop them over the matter would be tantamount to actively accusing them of cheating (which there really is no evidence of anyways), and that would most definitely put a strain on the relationship since roleplaying together is one of the few things we are able to do together anymore.
Even if they weren't close to my heart, I live out in the boonies. Roleplaying is all but unheard of among the rednecks around here. Those few who have heard of it, think it's a gateway drug to Satanism.
It would take me upwards of a month to find new players, and traveling to games in distant cities and towns may well break my wallet.
So, yes, indispensable.
Some of us rednecks do play, you might be surprised at how many. Redneck does not always mean uneducated and close minded.
Back to your regularly scheduled liberal leaning redneck bashing.
Who is redneck bashing? I'm not speaking of rednecks in general, I'm speaking specifically of those in my area that I have encountered directly. There is no exaggeration or malice in my post. Simple factual observation.
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Like someone said, I recall my 1's as much as my 20's. The most excitement in the game is the chance of death.....if you fudge, where is the gasp of excitement when you succeed?You know that sentence in Conan when he describes what is best in life ? Some people want this ALL THE TIME !!!
And I do not remember that he mentions fumbling with his weapon and wildly missing his enemies ;-)
"Conan! What is best in life?"
"To fumble your weapon before your enemies, to see your arrows fly into the brush before you, and to hear the mocking laughter of their women."
"I don't understand. What sorcery is this? No man of Cimmeria has had this problem before!"
I'd certainly consider accepting the fact that all rolls by players are public, though it would set the tone, in my opinion, that no one trusts their fellow players (despite the attempt to [in my opinion falsely] categorize it as etiquette) ... and I'd be just as likely to say, "Mmm ... sorry ... we're getting off on the wrong foot, here. Enjoy your gaming. I'll go read."
I guess it all depends on the group. That would seem really strange to me as well if a player wanted to hide his dice rolls. Half the fun is rolling that 20 and everyone rejoicing.
Secondly, I have a player at my table who actually cheats at the dice. The other players have noticed, and let me know, but I'm waiting for it to happen really blatantly so I can mention it to him. Right now its been a lot of rolling and then picking the die up, twisting it slightly, and announcing a different result. Plus fuzzy math that he has been called out on a few times.
Allowing all players to roll secretly would cause all players to suspect people were cheating at my table. Even as the GM, all of my rolls are shown to the players (except for the ones where they're not supposed to see.)
As to players requiring that I as a DM show them my rolls? I'd explain my reasons why I don't and if they then insisted, they'd be told, succinctly, to GTFO.
If it is combat rolls, I would expect the DM to show them all. I really despise when a DM lets a PC live even though the dice say the PC should die. I know not everyone plays like that, a lot of people seem to like to always win, so pretty much except the DM to fudge unlucky dice rolls, but that really lessens the experience to me.
And you can't rejoice when someone triumphantly says, "Twenty!" just as enthusiastically? Of course you can. You're looking for confirmation.
I agree I'm looking for confirmation. But turn this around. If you as a player are subject to an attack, and the GM rolls behind his screen and says "Critical threat", *rolls again* "Confirmed Critical", *rolls some more dice* "You take 85 points of damage. Oh, that kills you? Okay, your PC is dead."
In such a case, isn't there at least a little doubt in your mind? If not, I would suggest you are overly trusting.
I'm sorry you group with at least some untrustworthy people. I'd recommend paring down until you had a core of players about which there were no questions. Why game with a cheater?
Mostly because its all family/friends. The one friend in the group is the one that cheats. We basically all know about it, and think it is silly. I find it odd that I should have to tell someone not to cheat. He's actually lost two characters in the campaign so far, both times because he broke the cardinal rule "never split up from the other PCs."
So all in all, his cheating isn't have a dramatic effect on the game, and I hope to wean him off the habit. But it isn't worth it to embarrass him and shame him at this point.
In my opinion, that's a totally unjustified expectation ... and if someone demanded that of me, I'd laugh in their face. You're the player. He or she is the DM, and not remotely subject to the same rules you are. I know that many modern players have a primus inter pares or 'just one of the guys/gals' mentality when it comes to the person behind the screen, but ... I'm old school. To me that's just nonsensical.
I'm an old school player as well. Part of that old schoolness is that PCs should be able to die if the dice say they die. We've found as a group that GMs tend to fudge the dice so PCs live when the dice are cruel to them. We don't want that to happen as a group, so decided that all dice should be in the open.
This is not a situation where the players demanded it of me and I acquiesced. This is a situation where we all decided several years ago that it was going to be this way, and the practice lives on.
But if you weren't (arguably) sticking your nose where it didn't belong, metaphorically speaking, you'd never know ... and since there are some players who'd prefer to be saved, and others who, like you, enjoy the cold objectivity of the unadulterated dice at all times, a DM should have the freedom to handle things on an individual basis. Public rolls eliminate that possibility.
Right, but we don't want different rules for different players. All of the players in my group want the dice to decide. If I played in a group where the GM asked each player if they wanted to be saved or not, and then fudged dice accordingly, I wouldn't consider that an old school game at all. That's more "everyone gets a participation trophy" style of gaming.
Again, you're deciding what the experience should be by taking the DM's fundamental right to judiciously edit content if deemed necessary away from him or her.
The group is deciding that. We place utmost importance in the dice rolls. We roll for stats, we use critical hit/fumble deck, we have an instant kill rule, etc.
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I am (in)famous among my regular tabletop gaming friends for getting bored of characters and wanting to play something new (a side-effect of showing up to any superhero or vampire or whatever game with a dozen different characters I want to play!). So if I roll crappy, and it gets my character killed, I'm usually thrilled, since that means I get to try something new. No real motivation to cheat, even if it is easy. (The die roller here at Paizo is super-easy to cheat, for instance.)
As a GM, on the other hand, I recognize that not every player feels the same way about writing up new characters (and some actively loathe writing up new characters...), so, in a situation where a streak of bad rolls threaten someone's PC, I'm fine with the occasional GM fudge. (Although I find it robs some of the thrill from the game when I recognize a GM doing it to spare my own character, which, again, could be at least partially because there's always a part of me rooting for my character to croak, so I can bring in the replacement, which will, nine times out of ten, have much more WBL appropriate gear...)
But we've mostly done away with the need for that, since a house rule granted everyone a coin usable once / session to reroll a single roll. Everybody gets one 'get out of jail free' reroll, which puts the responsibility back on the player to try and avoid character death through a bad roll.
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I know these guys. They turn on 'God Mode' and 'Unlimited Ammo' right before they shift the difficulty bar all the way to 'Bunny Slope'.
They will whine and cry about any portion of the game that involves adversity right before they brag about how they one-shot the boss. They believe they are great players with great characters, and they are justified in "balancing out" the horrible dice luck they constantly get.
This is a really good example of why expectations should be clearly set and held to at the start of a game...
I know these guys. They turn on 'God Mode' and 'Unlimited Ammo' right before they shift the difficulty bar all the way to 'Bunny Slope'.
How many arrows can a character realistically carry? (no magical holding items)
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I play mostly for the chance to talk in silly accents, make film and music references, and use customized minis. That said, I'd think that players who like the risk taking aspect of the game would be even more likely to hold the DM to the same standards of integrity as the players when it comes to random number generation. The DMs dice should roll proudly into the middle of the table and confront the players with certain doom (or ridiculous comedy if he has an unlucky streak). I can't imagine that many players want to wonder if their PCs survived "on their own" or just because the DM fudged the dice. I'd imagine even fewer would want to find out that the DM fudged them to death.
Anyhow, players rolling in private seems like a pretty weird practice to me. When we generate ability scores by rolling you either have a witness or use a secure dice server of some sort. I don't think it is to keep people from cheating so much as to keep people from wondering if other people cheated. If you've got two 18s you want folks to know they're legit.
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I think there's a fundamental difference between the GM and the players that influences how die rolls are handled. The GM is the person who sets the narrative; they define gravity, how colourful the world is, or how much the setting leans toward adventure versus fighting versus romance versus what-have-you. They control the up, the down, the horizontal, the vertical... The GM is responsible for providing the sandbox within which everyone else plays.
The players, on the other hand, are in complete control of their characters (except when they are not able to control them, as in the case of being held or dominated). They have the power of choice that determines the speed and direction of how the narrative flows. When gravity becomes greater, they determine whether they lie down, or fight against the pressure. If the world suddenly turns purple, they determine whether this phenomenon is ignored or viewed with curiosity or incredulity.
When the GM fudges die rolls, it should, ostensibly, be for the good of the narrative. When the player fudges die rolls, it is an attempt to control the narrative in similar fashion to the GM. While the GM might choose to make the narrative easier (or harder) for players because it's a fantasy make-believe world and something magical or unpredictable happened, when the players do it, that's the "character" choosing to be successful, which is not within their list of acceptable choices. They can choose to swing the sword at the orc, or swing a mace, or step back and avoid the foe, or even stand there and let the orc savage them. The moment that they "choose" to hit the orc and rend its flesh, rather than choose to attack it, they have stepped into the role of the GM and have altered the narrative.
If that is the sort of game that you're playing, that's fine. It's not badwrongfun if all parties explicitly understand that this is how the game is being played. However, if the GM is not running that sort of play environment, it is most definitely badwrongfun, and it should be stopped. Players are free to seek out a GM that allows them to determine the narrative at will, just as GMs are free to allow players to do it. However, it should be deliberately expressed as to which kind of game that you're playing.
Best wishes.
It's also obvious not everyone has the same idea of "old school." I certainly recall the old "dice are a cruel wench sometimes" mentality from certain DMs, and found it tiresome back then, let alone now.
Agreed on the different definitions of "old school." I guess the most important thing to me is the objective fairness that the dice provide. The players attempt to do amazing things, and if they succeed (usually in no small part to lucky dice rolls), they they do in fact succeed. They return to town, bragging about their exploits, and most of the townsfolk rejoice in the heroes' story.
All of the players around the table and the GM as well remember those amazing moments where Bob one-shotted the boss because of that lucky roll. Or that time when Sally made 3 "impossible" saves back to back to back. They become stories that are told for years and years in real life.
All of those stories are predicated on the objective fairness of the dice. If the dice were hidden, then we don't know if that amazing thing really happened, or if the GM simply said it happened.
Different strokes, different folks and all that.
My personal preference is rather oddball: Real world religion; historical or quasi-historical setting (the current campaign I'm prepping is entitled Holy Land: A Tale of the Crusades)
Sounds like a pretty cool campaign. I would definitely appreciate the tie-ins to real world history and the lowering of the epicness of magic. That is one area that I have always changed the default assumption of. I hate worlds where incredibly powerful magic is a dime a dozen.
As to players requiring that I as a DM show them my rolls? I'd explain my reasons why I don't and if they then insisted, they'd be told, succinctly, to GTFO.If you specified earlier that you hide your rolls as a DM, then I missed it. I was referring to players. Of course DMs can keep their rolls private. It's quite common.
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Well, I took the approach of just informing the DM that "a couple players are not truthfully giving their d20 results", keeping it vague and as non-accusational as possible. I told him that I'd be fine whether he knows and does nothing, makes us roll on the table, etc. I explained shortly that it does bother me that this occurs so often, but if he was fine with it or didn't care, that It would not bother me anymore and that I just wanted to make him aware.
I hope I made the correct decision. Thank you very much, to all of you. <3
If you can give us an after-action of your next game session in regards to this, I'd be most interested to hear how things went!
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Well, I took the approach of just informing the DM that "a couple players are not truthfully giving their d20 results", keeping it vague and as non-accusational as possible. I told him that I'd be fine whether he knows and does nothing, makes us roll on the table, etc. I explained shortly that it does bother me that this occurs so often, but if he was fine with it or didn't care, that It would not bother me anymore and that I just wanted to make him aware.
I hope I made the correct decision. Thank you very much, to all of you. <3
As a GM, I would really appreciate your attitude here and the way you approached it. I hope it all works out for you.
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It's a lot like the people that only play video games on 'god mode.'
I just really don't understand it.It seems to by typically (though certainly not always) young person behavior. I just don't see it as much once people get into their mid 20's or so.
If all of them are doing it, not just 1 or 2, it is unlikely the GM doesn't know. Which means he is ok with it. Which means you are the odd man out. You are not going to (and should not) get the rest of the group to change and conform to your ideal game.
If it is just 1 or 2 players and/or you are pretty sure the GM doesn't know. There might be some possibility of the situation changing. Out of game have a private conversation with the GM. "Don't know if you've noticed this or not. I'm not accusing anyone specifically, but I think some of the players are not always being honest about their dice results. If that bothers you as GM, you might introduce the rule that all dice have to be in the open where everyone can see them. If it doesn't bother you, that's fine too."
You have to decide for yourself if you can stay at a table where the other players cheat. Personally, I probably would not.
I love to play in God mode. I only do so after I beat the game though as I enjoy the challenge first. After that it's more about finding the easter eggs and just exploring thing I could when not in God mode. You sometimes find some interesting stuff in the game that way.