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I just came out of a weekend with a handful of games where the party's opponents had crazy SR, Step Up And Strike, and anti-magic field (these are all separate encounters).
And, the poor magus, despite contending with all this, discharged a frigid touch onto a cold immune creature, and later discharged a shocking grasp onto an electric immune creature.
Granted, this was a fairly challenging level 7-11 scenario.
The 4-member party had a lot of magic-enabled PCs who pretty much had to cross their fingers that the non-magic PCs could handle the encounters.
Luckily they did. If instead of a rogue and ranger - they had another wizard and cleric, regardless of the build, they would've TPK'd. Hard. I needed to softball a little just to ensure they didn't in present form.
There's no advance warning these challenges are coming up. You go into them expecting a single generic day of adventure.
I'll happily run the scenario for any collection of 4 or more players with PCs who heavily lean on magic that wants to come down to Southern California for a game day or convention. Happily. :)
*exits room with evil laughter*
I'll happily run the scenario for any collection of 4 or more players with PCs who heavily lean on magic that wants to come down to Southern California for a game day or convention. Happily. :)
Are conjurers allowed? ;)
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Are conjurers allowed? ;)
Absolutely! Any PFS legal character is welcome!
It's ironic, but I think in every campaign I've run - the party hits a fight like this (I consider PFS as a whole to be a "campaign" each season)... one where the folks at the table better pray there's two of them who can kill their adversaries without any magical augmentation.
It's almost like whoever writes these things wants to basically say "now my young apprentice, here is where you learn why you don't build a fully magical party..."
This, of course, colors my perspective when folks talk about doing everything in a party with magic-enabled characters. I imagine replaying these encounters and get a chill.
It's only a matter of time before a "Planar Pugwampi" is released by Paizo that exudes a 20ft anti-magic aura and can spit "knockout" saliva that requires a mere DC15 Reflex save to avoid. Then, these little buggers can show up at level 6 in every major AP to torment players.
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AMF might be a nuisance, but pits and glitterdust have no SR.
Also, why would you waste an energy spell on something immune? Does no one have knowledge skills?
Sounds like your group is fail.
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To be fair... I always consider the AMF to be an invalid argument for comparing casters to martials.
AMF screws everyone. Everyone. Casters lose spells, martials lose their gear and everyone loses most (if not all) of their effectiveness.
It doesn't matter what your class features are, the only thing you do when you find yourself inside an AMF is leave it.*
*Assuming, of course, that AMF is not being used in a completely moronic way, like a Wizard who casts AMF while standing next to the enemy Barbarian.
and the tent thing doesn't work, as has been proven by area of effect. Just so you know.
==Aelryinth
I'm quoting this, because this is exactly something I have been thinking about. PF did a good job of standardizing HD and BAB; this'd be the logical next step.Thing that I don't get. Magic can do just about anything so what are the mundane resources? Saves, Skills, BAB and Feats. I imagine that for balance the more spells you can cast the fewer of the other things that you have. so classes with zero spells should be the kings of skills, BAB Saves and Feats.
Full casters should have one good save, 1/2 BAB, few bonus feats, and 2+INT skills per level.
6/9 casters should have two good saves, 3/4 BAB, Medium amounts of bonus feats, and 4+INT skills per level.
4/9 to non casters should get three good saves, Full BAB, lots of bonus feats, and 6+INT skills per level.
Now if the Fighter had all good saves, and 6+INT skills per level what would you be able to do with him?
4/9 casters should also have two good saves. non-casters should have 3 good saves. All casters get defensive spells to make up for weaknesses.
==Aelryinth
and the tent thing doesn't work, as has been proven by area of effect. Just so you know.
The tent trick has been around for ten years. Item does not have the AOE to shrink down an open tent. Plus there's the whole issue of which way does the tent fall when it's opened, can the fighter grab the bottom before it falls down, can he idly cut through it without stopping, etc etc etc.
The cone in a hat/tent trick doesn't work unless the DM is feeling very generous to you.
==Aelryinth
Oh, you say it doesn't work because you don't like it.
That's cool
(yawn) No, you're saying it does work because you don't like A_M Shell and want a cheap off-the-cuff solution with 100% success that you can use to nerf the tactic. There's a significant difference there
There are things that work against A-M shell, but wearing a shrunken cone on your head isn't one of them.
==Aelryinth
You can't grab things that happen instantly once you get within 10 ft of the tent for starters so that's just not a real issue. Second I don't usually see tent so much as "metal/adamantine cone" which while possible to cut through is going to be difficult. Also, there's no reason that the tent would not expand outward equally in all directions and thus settle around as the trick explains. Furthermore, even assuming a tent does not work, I'm going to assume that character with an INT of 24+ can figure out a shape that expands properly to achieve the effect.
You can't grab things that happen instantly once you get within 10 ft of the tent for starters so that's just not a real issue. Second I don't usually see tent so much as "metal/adamantine cone" which while possible to cut through is going to be difficult. Also, there's no reason that the tent would not expand outward equally in all directions and thus settle around as the trick explains. Furthermore, even assuming a tent does not work, I'm going to assume that character with an INT of 24+ can figure out a shape that expands properly to achieve the effect.
Nope, because a PC who dares resist the GMs will is having bad-wrong-fun.
Aelryinth doesn't want to redesign encounters for the wizard who is immune to antimagic field.
Can someone explain this badwrongfun trick? I'm intrigued.
Don't discount AMF as totally disruptive. In certain situations, it's like casting 'I win" for the fight (like, against a Demi-Lich). On the flip side, nothing is worse than a Huge or larger creature (like Dragons) with Anti-Magic Field up, power-attacking and grabbing their foe with impunity.
Can someone explain this badwrongfun trick? I'm intrigued.Shrink a metal cone down, wear it as a hat. When you walk into an anti magic field, the cone expands, making a "tent" over you. Since anti magic field is an emanation, it blocks the AMF and you are free to do whatever, most likely teleport out
And when the antimagic user realizes you've teleported into the sky and that they lack an Ex means of flight (assuming they are not a strix) they cry themselves to sleep as you unload conjuration after conjuration on them for their hubris.
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Can someone explain this badwrongfun trick? I'm intrigued.Shrink a metal cone down, wear it as a hat. When you walk into an anti magic field, the cone expands, making a "tent" over you. Since anti magic field is an emanation, it blocks the AMF and you are free to do whatever, most likely teleport out
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude...
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Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude...Can someone explain this badwrongfun trick? I'm intrigued.Shrink a metal cone down, wear it as a hat. When you walk into an anti magic field, the cone expands, making a "tent" over you. Since anti magic field is an emanation, it blocks the AMF and you are free to do whatever, most likely teleport out
More importantly, this explains why Wizards wear cone-shaped hats, the mystery has finally been solved!
Because the magic is what is making it small? Thus with no magic it regains its proper normal size.
Edit in response to edit: Suppressing shrink item means the cone will return to its normal size as it no longer under the effect of Shrink Item, however once it leave the field it would then be shrunk as normal.
Thus with no magic it regains its proper normal size.How?
Because the effect making it small has been suppressed.
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More importantly, this explains why Wizards wear cone-shaped hats, the mystery has finally been solved!Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude...Can someone explain this badwrongfun trick? I'm intrigued.Shrink a metal cone down, wear it as a hat. When you walk into an anti magic field, the cone expands, making a "tent" over you. Since anti magic field is an emanation, it blocks the AMF and you are free to do whatever, most likely teleport out
Clever...
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I just came out of a weekend with a handful of games where the party's opponents had crazy SR, Step Up And Strike, and anti-magic field (these are all separate encounters).
And, the poor magus, despite contending with all this, discharged a frigid touch onto a cold immune creature, and later discharged a shocking grasp onto an electric immune creature.
Granted, this was a fairly challenging level 7-11 scenario.
The Magus is a hybrid with weak spellcasting, at 7-11 a proper arcane caster is unlikly to care very much. Grease, Glitterdust, Create Pit, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles and Summons are all staples of mid level spellcasters and all of them ignore SR entirely. Step Up and Strike is pretty much ignores when you are flying all day long and/or Invisible.
Honestly it sounds like your arcane characters just werent very well prepared. If it is a PFS 7-11 scenario then a good number of them could be solo'd by a competent 9-11th level Wizard, Cleric, Druid or Witch or 10-11 Oracle or Sorcerer.
Which scenario was it?
Meh, just to point out but most of the 'great' spells for a caster are great...
If you have someone to follow up on them. Which is the problem a lot of 'full caster' teams run into -- great we have haste, they are slowed, and we can get to them one at a time... but no one can do the heavy lifting to end it.
Summons are the major means to get around this as is accepting the idea that getting around is just as good as killing a problem. But even simply 'escaping' has issues since unless you have finished the problem it can follow you around or come back when you least want it too.
Fixing fights for your own side? That's spell cheap.
Ending fights all together for your own side? That gets to be spell intensive.
And that eats into your duration.
Are all these things 'solvable'? Absolutely -- but you have to be ready to not simply follow 'standard caster/party protocol'.
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Yeah, exactlyBecause the effect making it small has been suppressed.But not dispelled.
Does that mean when it leaves the AMF it returns to the shrunken size?
I just don't see why it doesn't remain a non-magical shrunken cone until it leaves the AMF, where it can then be commanded to unshrink. The whole idea is predicated on the thought that the magical effect is constantly keeping it from resizing, which I see no evidence of.
The funny thing to do is also put Anti-Magic Field on certain improved familiars and just watch hilarity ensue xD
But even in a full party of casters, which requires shorter adventuring days, there are ways around that too. Your Own Personal Demiplane starts at level 3 and slowly gets better from there. And they have all sorts of escape spells, If you get Anchored get one of the other casters to Dispel it first.
I just read the problem pithily summed up by /tg/: Casters work off the Rule of Cool, martials have to be realistic.
I just don't see why it doesn't remain a non-magical shrunken cone until it leaves the AMF, where it can then be commanded to unshrink. The whole idea is predicated on the thought that the magical effect is constantly keeping it from resizing, which I see no evidence of.
What would you say about a fireball cast into an AMF? If the effect of a spell remains effectual within its confines, then the fireball would still do damage. If it didn't, then the effect keeping the item shrunk doesn't hold either, and the item becomes large again. If it were an instantaneous effect, then I could see your logic.
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What would you say about a fireball cast into an AMF?
That it doesn't have a duration to continue counting against and is therefore irrelevant.
If it were a delayed blast fireball, I could see it shooting in, winking out, and if the field moved before the delay was over, then exploding as normal. Of course, if the field still overlapped the area, that area would be protected from the magical flame.
If it didn't, then the effect keeping the item shrunk doesn't hold either
See, you are assuming that the item is struggling to return to its normal size and only the magic is keeping it shrunken. I am assuming that the magic turned it to that size and it will only return to normal size when the magic makes it, either by command or expiration of the duration. Why are either of them invalid interpretations?
TOZ, would a polymorphed or alter selfed person revert to base form while in an AM shell? Adjudicate that, and you've your answer.
Any spell with a duration should be suppressed and basically undone while in the AMF shell. IF it moves out of the shell, the spell takes effect again and it reverts.
==Aelryinth
Define Suppress. I take it to mean 'spell is not active, but is not dispelled and can resume being active if unsuppressed.'
==Aelryinth
See, you are assuming that the item is struggling to return to its normal size and only the magic is keeping it shrunken. I am assuming that the magic turned it to that size and it will only return to normal size when the magic makes it, either by command or expiration of the duration. Why are either of them invalid interpretations?
Struggling, no. However, the duration of the effect is keeping it shrunk. If you suppress the effect, it's no longer shrunk.
The magic changed the size, yes, but you're bringing that item into a magically suppressed area. I don't see how it can continue to function. It's not dispelled, no, but the duration keeps ticking away as appropriate. If the effects of non-instantaneous spells are not suppressed then AMF is moot and serves no purpose.
Would you say that an arrow shot by a gravity bow enchanted bow at a creature in an AMF still takes the increased damage?
Define Suppress. I take it to mean 'spell is not active, but is not dispelled and can resume being active if unsuppressed.'
==Aelryinth
Or, we can just go by a regular dictionary. I don't see most words used in the rules defined anywhere. I don't see an official ruling on the word 'to,' for instance.
sup·press
: to end or stop (something) by force
Since AMF says it doesn't dispel an effect the or clause for 'stop' becomes the clear winner out of the two cases. Do I need to copy/paste the definition of stop?
What spell is it that keeps the item shrunk? Perhaps that would tell the difference between dispelled & suppressed.
EDIT: Oh, "Shrink Item" that certainly got a huge boost from 2e.... :O
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Would you say that an arrow shot by a gravity bow enchanted bow at a creature in an AMF still takes the increased damage?
As transmutation, yes. You have physically changed the mass of the arrow, and within the AMF there is no magic able to change it back.
This also avoids the question of how it works striking a foe with an enlarged unarmed strike from outside the field and if your fist shrinks or not while the rest of you remains enlarged.
Because the spell is no longer working and without it the cone returns to its original form. If someone chose the option to turn it into a cloth item would you say it remained a piece of cloth inside the AMF.
Personally I am less than convinced this works for two reasons. At level 20 40' feet is an item 5'x5'x1.6' which isnt large enough to cover you. Also I see no reason to assume it will snugly fit directly over you rather than rolling off at an angle.
Having it as the basis for Wizards wearing pointy hats is mildly amusing.
Finally given AMF isnt really a problem for spellcasters if they know what they are doing the whole cone hat trick thing is unnecessary.
Fortunately, shrink item accounts for volume, not area. A HOLLOW cone takes up a surprisingly small amount of volume.
As transmutation, yes. You have physically changed the mass of the arrow, and within the AMF there is no magic able to change it back.
This also avoids the question of how it works striking a foe with an enlarged unarmed strike from outside the field and if your fist shrinks or not while the rest of you remains enlarged.
We know from RAW that a magical weapon becomes a masterwork weapon in an AMF. Since your weapons are permanently changed to have magical qualities and those go away. Why would transmutations, which physically change something, be special in that they don't change in an AMF? The impact property's prerequisites are all transmutation spells. Many weapon enchantments include transmutations. Yet, they still get turned off for weapons explicitly within the spell text itself. I see zero reason why other transmutations would be unaffected.
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Because they are not physically changed by their enchantments. Obviously brilliant energy would disappear because there is no physical part of the blade left. (The hilt would remain.)
Transmutations that actually change the physical properties of the weapon would remain, but magical effects are suppressed. Since that +1 enhancement bonus isn't a physical change to the sword, it can't remain in the field.
I usually see you as a fairly logical person. But, on this one, you're way out there, man. You're telling me I can spend day after day casting these transmutation spells to do an enchantment yet those spells don't physically change the sword once the crafting is complete.
Magic just doesn't work in an AMF. It's that simple. The only exceptions are the walls in the text and the clause about casting it in an area occupied by a summoned creature.
In one last attempt to convince you, RAW, spell-like abilities do not work in an area that is magically suppressed which AMF does. Therefore, an SPA of a transmutation spell wouldn't work. Why would it's regular, spell variant work if SPAs work just like a spell does?