Goblin Squad Member
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And as long as players pvp within the ascribed ways, don't scam or flame etc. they will be able to role play their favorite alignment or totally forget about it either way without running into the crippled character syndrome from your first group of people?It is doubtful to me if it will be possible to play a Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly without getting a crippled character as a result.
You are evading the question. It doesn't matter if you think it is doubtful or not.
If a player sets their core alignment to CE, and they do not kill outside of feud, war, faction of self defense, will the alignment still suffer mechanical disadvantages?
Why is it hard to imagine, unless there won't be any CE purposes for feuds, wars or no CE factions?
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Goblin Squad Member
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And as long as players pvp within the ascribed ways, don't scam or flame etc. they will be able to role play their favorite alignment or totally forget about it either way without running into the crippled character syndrome from your first group of people?It is doubtful to me if it will be possible to play a Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly without getting a crippled character as a result.
I don't get it. Not smart enough. I guess CE is simply an anti-griefing mechanism and cetain character concepts just won't be worth playing. I can live with that. Come to think of it, when I've GMed TT Pathfinder/D&D, any bozo who tried to be CE played more like a selfish jerk than truly evil.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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If a player sets their core alignment to CE, and they do not kill outside of feud, war, faction of self defense, will the alignment still suffer mechanical disadvantages?
You'll have to find a Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil Settlement that is actively trying to keep their rep high enough to compete with other Settlements which means that de facto you'll be playing with and like less chaotic and less evil characters - the whole Settlement may be playing in ways that tend to drift their alignment away from Chaotic Evil.
So if the Settlement is well managed, you will likely have access to a fairly broad range of character abilities, but still not the absolute most exotic. That may or may not matter materially.
If you want to play your Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly, you'll probably not be able to remain a part of that Settlement - they'll boot you to protect their own Development Index.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't get it. Not smart enough. I guess CE is simply an anti-griefing mechanism and cetain character concepts just won't be worth playing. I can live with that. Come to think of it, when I've GMed TT Pathfinder/D&D, any bozo who tried to be CE played more like a selfish jerk than truly evil.And as long as players pvp within the ascribed ways, don't scam or flame etc. they will be able to role play their favorite alignment or totally forget about it either way without running into the crippled character syndrome from your first group of people?It is doubtful to me if it will be possible to play a Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly without getting a crippled character as a result.
The character concepts that won't be worth playing will be the concepts similar to "I judge everyone that I meet, and attempt to kill anyone that I think I can."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan, how high can a reputation go playing Lawful Evil?
As in you have to do some evil stuff to maintain the "Evil" in your alignment and most evil things result in loss of reputation. So how would, in your opinion, a Lawful Evil city fair against a Lawful Good one in terms of advanced training and crafting?
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Goblin Squad Member
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And as long as players pvp within the ascribed ways, don't scam or flame etc. they will be able to role play their favorite alignment or totally forget about it either way without running into the crippled character syndrome from your first group of people?It is doubtful to me if it will be possible to play a Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly without getting a crippled character as a result.
Thank you for the direct response.
I'm just curious where my impression varies from yours with much more on-hand experience.
Having a CE character doesn't automatically mean stabbing faces at random all day erry day (that's a player decision to go outside GW-acceptable boundaries and all alignments should get their classes handed to them if they do it). I can see a dedicated CE rp'er occasionally threatening a non-hostile and potentially following through but not the feared GW-condemned chaotic stupid serial killer. (My idea to use Power to Start A Fight, a 15? minute long GW-approved hostility with a single character, keeping with other levels of pvp that initiate from limited resources)
Those with bad intentions won't Core as CE, maybe not any type of C or E for as long as better mechanical advantages exist elsewhere, and they'll use Drift as much as possible to stay away. I only foresee rp'ers like Fiendish choosing a CE Core with Drift always pulling her to -5000, -5000.
So really it becomes a question of what can you do in-game that is faster than Drift to shift Chaotic and/or Evil that doesn't result in rep loss, right?
Break laws. Your laws or enemies' laws in their lands (a feature of all chaotics)
Assist an evil god or other faction
Are there any alignment shifts attached to who you trade with?
I've always thought contributing materials, skills, or fighting for an officially structured feud or war should accrue shifts in the direction of the sponsor. When a CE fights in a GW-sanctioned war/feud for NE settlement/company his Law vs. Chaos isn't engaged either way (Neutral) but he accrues small shifts towards evil as he takes part in the war supporting an evil entity. Likewise contributing/fighting for a LG settlement feels like it should come with simultaneous accrued shifts toward L and G.
Potential problems:
Does killing monsters in the countryside or especially escalations come with G or L shifts?
Fulfilling contracts leads to L? Might have to eschew official contracts and meta some agreements with people that think the CEs self-interest rests most in having it completed; that's meaningful decisions on both sides.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Proxima Sin - you appear to be proceeding from a false premise. I have no intention of making a game where people who want to play Chaotic Evil characters will be happy with their experience. One of the design goals of this game is not "Let people play every alignment option in rough balance with all the others". In fact the exact opposite is true: we're intentionally and publicly stating we have a bias and we'll intentionally sacrifice an alignment for the purpose of overall community quality.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Pathfinder I find that many GMs simply disallow Evil alignments. The Pathfinder Society Organized Play rules do as well. It's difficult to have a huge mix of alignments in a party. There are cases where Evil is catered to, but that takes special effort on the GM's part. It can be a fun game! It's just not going to be for everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The character concepts that won't be worth playing will be the concepts similar to "I judge everyone that I meet, and attempt to kill anyone that I think I can."I don't get it. Not smart enough. I guess CE is simply an anti-griefing mechanism and cetain character concepts just won't be worth playing. I can live with that. Come to think of it, when I've GMed TT Pathfinder/D&D, any bozo who tried to be CE played more like a selfish jerk than truly evil.And as long as players pvp within the ascribed ways, don't scam or flame etc. they will be able to role play their favorite alignment or totally forget about it either way without running into the crippled character syndrome from your first group of people?It is doubtful to me if it will be possible to play a Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly without getting a crippled character as a result.
Fortunately, not one person has expressed this as their character concept. This is a red herring and beneath the discussion.
Not one individual has written that they are looking to play outside of sanctioned PvP methods. It has all been related to using feuds, wars, factions or other means available that would not cost reputation.
Based on Ryan's comments it appears that players will have to spend some time grinding alignment to stay out if CE. I suspect he will say that is working as intended, but that in no way says that PFO has a "meaningful" alignment system in my opinion.
Ryan has also said that eventually most players will simply ignore alignment, except for Paladins, Monks and Clerics (within their Deity's range). All others can and should set their alignment as far from CE, but play however they choose to, mindful of only reputation.
Based on this assumption I see many setting core alignment to Lawful Neutral. That will give them 3 whole steps to burn through before ever touching CE.
What is funny about this whole thing is the loss of trust players will have, even if they use a Know Alignment spell. They will see the Core but not be able to trust if you actually play that way or if you artificially grind your way back to it every once in a while.
So much for the "Sacred Cow", it's a complete mockery.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fortunately, not one person has expressed this as their character concept. This is a red herring and beneath the discussion.
Not one individual has written that they are looking to play outside of sanctioned PvP methods. It has all been related to using feuds, wars, factions or other means available that would not cost reputation.
Based on Ryan's comments it appears that players will have to spend some time grinding alignment to stay out if CE. I suspect he will say that is working as intended, but that in no way says that PFO has a "meaningful" alignment system in my opinion.
Ryan has also said that eventually most players will simply ignore alignment, except for Paladins, Monks and Clerics (within their Deity's range). All others can and should set their alignment as far from CE, but play however they choose to, mindful of only reputation.
Based on this assumption I see many setting core alignment to Lawful Neutral. That will give them 3 whole steps to burn through before ever touching CE.
What is funny about this whole thing is the loss of trust players will have, even if they use a Know Alignment spell. They will see the Core but not be able to trust if you actually play that way or if you artificially grind your way back to it every once in a while.
So much for the "Sacred Cow", it's a complete mockery.
That's right by sacrificing CE, PFO has sacrificed the whole alignment system in regards to having any real role-play meaning within the game. Any alignment is meaningless, everyone will just set their alignment to LG (farthest from CE)so no matter your actions then you can drift back up to get the most mechanical benefit. One of the greatest things that drew me as a role-player to PFO was the alignment system, now it's just a tool to smack bad players over the head with. All the while being ineffectual as players are smart and will game the system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the design goals of this game is not "Let people play every alignment option in rough balance with all the others".
I take this to me:
1. Character power or access to resources
2. Proportion of players existing in game at any one time of various alignments
Naturally 1. leads to 2.
@Fiendish: I can't tell if you are being sarcastic to make a subtle point or if you are talking about your current perception of Alignment in PFO being less valuable than you had anticipated?
My understanding of Alignment is:
1. I will not commit to any Alignment until I understand which playstyle and which roles I enjoy playing in game, that then dicates my likely Alignment.
2. Alignment will flesh out interesting differences: Necromantic acts, breaking laws leading to flagging status of character and so on. It sounds interesting to me in spreading player groups distributions and connections.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's right by sacrificing CE, PFO has sacrificed the whole alignment system in regards to having any real role-play meaning within the game. Any alignment is meaningless, everyone will just set their alignment to LG (farthest from CE)so no matter your actions then you can drift back up to get the most mechanical benefit. One of the greatest things that drew me as a role-player to PFO was the alignment system, now it's just a tool to smack bad players over the head with. All the while being ineffectual as players are smart and will game the system.Fortunately, not one person has expressed this as their character concept. This is a red herring and beneath the discussion.
Not one individual has written that they are looking to play outside of sanctioned PvP methods. It has all been related to using feuds, wars, factions or other means available that would not cost reputation.
Based on Ryan's comments it appears that players will have to spend some time grinding alignment to stay out if CE. I suspect he will say that is working as intended, but that in no way says that PFO has a "meaningful" alignment system in my opinion.
Ryan has also said that eventually most players will simply ignore alignment, except for Paladins, Monks and Clerics (within their Deity's range). All others can and should set their alignment as far from CE, but play however they choose to, mindful of only reputation.
Based on this assumption I see many setting core alignment to Lawful Neutral. That will give them 3 whole steps to burn through before ever touching CE.
What is funny about this whole thing is the loss of trust players will have, even if they use a Know Alignment spell. They will see the Core but not be able to trust if you actually play that way or if you artificially grind your way back to it every once in a while.
So much for the "Sacred Cow", it's a complete mockery.
Yeah, but don't forget, we now have to use a spreadsheet in Eve Online PFO to keep track of Alignment shifts and recovery.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, but don't forget, we now have to use a spreadsheet...
Why? Because you wish to represent your character a something he isn't?
Have you still been unable to wrap your mind around the idea that you play your character and the game tells you what alignment that character's behavior means within the context of the game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Question 1: How come there isn't a thread called 'Alignment Discussion' stickied here? Would be easier if there was one place to talk about that system instead of 10 different threads that are about other aspects of the game. I'm starting to lose track of which discussion is going on where since each thread starts to look the same a few pages in :/
Question 2: Why care so much about the alignment system?
I am a player that likes to spread myself out across a game like butter on toast...I don't dedicate myself to one aspect 100%. So I like to RP, but not ALL the time. So I like to go on adventures, but not ALL the time. So I like to crush your face just because you looked at my mineral deposit the wrong way, but not ALL the time. And the same goes for the RP side of my characters. I am not one-sided, and neither are my characters.
The thing that I don't understand is the way that some RPers treat alignment. They set CE on a character and play that character like a A4 with a bad guy scribbled on it. They make it seem like an evil character could never do anything good. Why not set your character as L/CN and play him/her in many different ways. At some point you might have feasted a bit too freely on your neighbors, or "forgot" to uphold a deal. The next month you spend your days being a productive Goblin-stew maker/harvester. Your alignment would sway back and forth all this time.
Any Character Investigation spells/mechanisms could return one or both of two things>
1. Core alignment (which would claim you are a Neutral person...a joker or a wildcard)
2. Current alignment (which would claim you are either the Hannibal of PfO or a great cook and goblin killer...depending on the month)
This would give the other player plenty enough info on your character to make a judgement on whether or not to trust you at that given time.
If you plan on being a one-sided evil character that does nothing except eat people, then accept the mechanical disadvantage that comes with or find a settlement that will work hard towards keeping their DI high enough to cater to your needs.
Choose between being 100% evil or 100% powerful. I don't see that as a VERY big sacrifice for evil RPers.
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Note> I do think all chars could start with a Neutral/Neutral alignment and let their play style show them what kind of person the character is. Then bind a Core Alignment depending on that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, but don't forget, we now have to use a spreadsheet...Why? Because you wish to represent your character a something he isn't?
Have you still been unable to wrap your mind around the idea that you play your character and the game tells you what alignment that character's behavior means within the context of the game?
I think you know better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, but don't forget, we now have to use a spreadsheet...Why? Because you wish to represent your character a something he isn't?
Have you still been unable to wrap your mind around the idea that you play your character and the game tells you what alignment that character's behavior means within the context of the game?
Why not? The Alignment System is something it isn't. Why should I care more about the non mechanical aspects of alignment than the CEO of Goblin Works does?
He has stated quite directly alignment is a game mechanic, and one that all but a few will eventually need to even think about. It is a "set it and forget it" system. The best way to work this system is to set your alignment to the most beneficial one, and then forget it and let the auto drift do its work.
Alignment has already been established as the first grind in PFO, months before the first player has set foot in Alpha. That is truly remarkable, and I wonder if that will be one of PFO's listed features?
"We have a meaningless alignment system that you can grind to your advantage"!
Take this with Ryan's argument that what MMOs are missing is the Story Telling aspect, and it leaves me scratching my head.
Mechanics don't tell a story, role playing does.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Question 1: How come there isn't a thread called 'Alignment Discussion' stickied here? Would be easier if there was one place to talk about that system instead of 10 different threads that are about other aspects of the game. I'm starting to lose track of which discussion is going on where since each thread starts to look the same a few pages in :/
Question 2: Why care so much about the alignment system?
I am a player that likes to spread myself out across a game like butter on toast...I don't dedicate myself to one aspect 100%. So I like to RP, but not ALL the time. So I like to go on adventures, but not ALL the time. So I like to crush your face just because you looked at my mineral deposit the wrong way, but not ALL the time. And the same goes for the RP side of my characters. I am not one-sided, and neither are my characters.The thing that I don't understand is the way that some RPers treat alignment. They set CE on a character and play that character like a A4 with a bad guy scribbled on it. They make it seem like an evil character could never do anything good. Why not set your character as L/CN and play him/her in many different ways. At some point you might have feasted a bit too freely on your neighbors, or "forgot" to uphold a deal. The next month you spend your days being a productive Goblin-stew maker/harvester. Your alignment would sway back and forth all this time.
Any Character Investigation spells/mechanisms could return one or both of two things>
1. Core alignment (which would claim you are a Neutral person...a joker or a wildcard)
2. Current alignment (which would claim you are either the Hannibal of PfO or a great cook and goblin killer...depending on the month)This would give the other player plenty enough info on your character to make a judgement on whether or not to trust you at that given time.
If you plan on being a one-sided evil character that does nothing except eat people, then accept the mechanical disadvantage that comes with or find a settlement that will work...
Question 1: One of the official ones ended up being locked but they don't generally sticky much.
Question 2:
Basically my most favorite character I ever played in tabletop was a Chaotic Evil wizard for all intents and purposes. Even though she was officially Chaotic Neutral, I crossed over into the Evil camp on many occasions.
I was not some homicidal, face-stabbing, manically laughing stereotype. I was charming, urbane, manipulative, witty. I was the party leader, who held together the party together through strength of will and manipulation, but I always put myself first in almost all occasions. I nearly betrayed the party, often made deals behind their backs that only benefited me. Most of the time they never knew. Occasionally I got caught but I was good at talking my way out of things. This character ran for a campaign that lasted 3 real years of consistent playing. So she was no one shot throw away.
Chaotic Evil can be that. A "rules don't apply to me" and a "I put my self first" attitude is what makes chaotic evil. You don't have to be a stupid boor. Bearing in mind evil has degrees like anything else. Evils who want to destroy the world are not evil they are just insane.
Of course I could still play that way in PFO but there will be no purpose in setting your alignment at what your character really is. Just game it and give yourself the highest score on both the axis (7500, 7500) that way you have the farthest to fall. Alignment choice is meaningless. That is what we are lamenting. The alignment system is not really an alignment system, it's a bad player punishment. Unfortunately however it screws anyone who wants to RP a proper villain, treating them as nothing more than the equivalent of someone they don't want playing their game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm in favor of well-played 'evil' (not that I'm any good at it). But if I were going to play a charming, urbane, manipulative wizard with a "rules don't apply to me" and a "I put my self first" attitude, I wouldn't choose to self-label as CE. I'd label as something else and game the system - setting my mantra as "rules don't apply to me." Lots of 'good' villains hide that way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The character concepts that won't be worth playing will be the concepts similar to "I judge everyone that I meet, and attempt to kill anyone that I think I can."Fortunately, not one person has expressed this as their character concept. This is a red herring and beneath the discussion.
Not one individual has written that they are looking to play outside of sanctioned PvP methods.
Wow. Did that strike a nerve or something? I don't see Decius pointing any fingers...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Based on Ryan's comments it appears that players will have to spend some time grinding alignment to stay out if CE.
The way I read it, the only players that will need to grind alignment to stay out of CE will be the murder-happy jerks who generally ruin PvP games anyway...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm in favor of well-played 'evil' (not that I'm any good at it). But if I were going to play a charming, urbane, manipulative wizard with a "rules don't apply to me" and a "I put my self first" attitude, I wouldn't choose to self-label as CE. I'd label as something else and game the system - setting my mantra as "rules don't apply to me." Lots of 'good' villains hide that way.
Indeed they do and that was just one example to show the range a chaotic evil can have. People love to associate chaotic evil with chaotic stupid.
I just don't like the idea of gaming the system for mechanical benefit as there are a lot of other great character concepts that would get destroyed by the current alignment system. However that apparently is "working as intended".
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Goblin Squad Member
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However that apparently is "working as intended".
Now, though, we have an explicit statement from Ryan that we can link into many of these threads when it becomes appropriate...as it does oh-so-very often; people will have a valuable piece of information up-front and clearly laid out. Perhaps Nihimon will want to add it to his "Important Pronouncements" section of the Nihimonicon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm in favor of well-played 'evil' (not that I'm any good at it). But if I were going to play a charming, urbane, manipulative wizard with a "rules don't apply to me" and a "I put my self first" attitude, I wouldn't choose to self-label as CE. I'd label as something else and game the system - setting my mantra as "rules don't apply to me." Lots of 'good' villains hide that way.
I think in this context it's mixing up Burt Reynolds for a trucker with a quirky orangutan sidekick.
The character would always be lying and trying to convince people he's safe for them and they can accomplish great things together, always intending to go back on those words at the drop of a green hat. Spells might detect that aspect of his real feelings and obfuscation magic exists to counter them.
The CE label on a character sheet is for players. (At least in my tabletop the characters never went around yelling, "Stop, you chaotic evil heathen!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Evils interested in greater challenges would embrace the mechanics of alignment and reputation. Evils interested only in gaining advantage wherever possible will not.
Those desiring an interesting experience will not be concerned by tempestuous teapots.
Have a cup!
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. UNKNOWN: The rate at which your alignment drifts to core.
2. UNKNOWN: Exactly how much mechanical benefit a LG character will have over a LE or CE or any other alignment for that matter.
3. UNKNOWN: Whether you can set your core alignment as one thing, consistently play as another, and not be penalized by the system for doing that. The devs have said that it'll be advantageous to shift your core alignment to match your playstyle if they're frequently out of sync, but I suppose we should ignore all that until there's an official blog post, right?
4. UNKNOWN: What alignment you will register as for a Detect Alignment spell if your core and active do not synch up.
5. UNKNOWN: Whatever you claim to know about grinding alignment. There was nothing said that I can see which would even remotely point to a need to grind alignment. In fact, you seem to directly contradict yourself when you say simultaneously that you should "set and forget" alignment and that you should also have to grind alignment.
Little aside, it's likely that most players will ignore alignment because they will find out what alignment their playstyle pushes them towards, set their core alignment to that, and never have to worry about it again. But I suppose you can assume Ryan was indicating something contrary to what he's always said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. UNKNOWN: The rate at which your alignment drifts to core.
Weeks or months like Jazzlvraz posited and it's mostly ineffective at it's original purpose, but over the weekend and it's very easy for negative players to game to their ends, and we don't know how long an axis should be inactive before Drift starts pushing it back to Core.
Which leads to the question of when is GW currently planning to tune the dials on Alignment drift?
I hope the answer is alpha, because in EE or OE I think the dial tuning process is much more likely to have negative effects on more players.
Little aside, it's likely that most players will ignore alignment because they will find out what alignment their playstyle pushes them towards, set their core alignment to that, and never have to worry about it again.
Until their friends form a company or join a settlement diagonal to them, or a group of friends ranges lawful to chaotic, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. UNKNOWN: The rate at which your alignment drifts to core.
What is known is that there is no drift if you act contrary to your Core Alignment, and that whatever drift there is will be "slow".
Each hour you do not act contrary to your Core Alignment (i.e., do not gain any points that move you away from your Core), you slowly move back towards your Core Alignment. If you do not act contrary to their Core Alignment, you will eventually return to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Players will be able to group up without regard to alignment, and while grouped will likely play similarly. If the player realizes their chosen alignment is radically different from how they are playing then they should probably rethink their choices, right? Similarly when they realize the things they value are dissonant with a mistake they made then they will recognize they chose poorly.
If the player cannot adapt to their environment is it the fault of the environment or is it meaningfully the player who rightly bears responsibility?
It isn't as if GW is being underhanded and rolling these systems out deceptively.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, I think it's reasonable to assume that Alignment drift might be similar in time-scale to Reputation drift.
For each hour of play time during which the character does not lose Reputation, he gains Reputation. The exact amount of Reputation is likely to change multiple times in testing, but currently we're shooting for 1 Reputation per hour (minus .25 Reputation for every 2500 points below 0). So a character with -5000 Reputation would only get .5 Reputation per hour during which he did not lose Reputation. This means it can be pretty hard to dig yourself out of a Reputation hole. Every four straight hours the character earns Reputation, the amount earned increases slightly (currently by .25), up to a limit of something like 10 points per hour. So if a character behaves for four hours, he'll start earning 1.25 Reputation per hour instead of 1.
Then, consider statements like this:
... "don't let people make easy recoveries from evil acts".
The most important thing is not that characters can kill other characters. The most important thing is that there are consequences for doing that. And it's a corollary of that statement that the more often a character kills other characters, or helps a character killer, the harder it must be for that character to recover from doing so.
There are all sorts of feedback mechanisms capable of taking a player's actions and amplifying them so that negative consequences are hard to fix, regardless of how many characters a given player is playing.
There are consequences that can never be fixed - or are not mechanically fixable - like the enmity of other players. In a theme park game that's almost meaningless. In a sandbox game where territorial control is paramount, it is exceptionally meaningful.
Interfering with people's attempt to grind reputation or to sidestep reputational challenges by staying within a tightly controlled peer group (whether you run all those peers yourself is meaningless) will be a fundamental part of the design of the game.
I think the folks who plan on playing murder-happy jerks who also get all the benefits of having positive Alignment and Reputation are deluding themselves. I hope they pony up a bunch of money before they figure it out, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just don't like the idea of gaming the system for mechanical benefit as there are a lot of other great character concepts that would get destroyed by the current alignment system. However that apparently is "working as intended".Ryan has sort of given players permission to game the system if they need to to meet some character concept:
Some very small number of people are going to try and see how they can stretch and warp the alignment system playing atypically and without much regard for logic. Harmless.
For "logic" I'd freely substitute "the logic of PFO's alignment system".
From the standpoint of the GW and the other players we interact with, there is almost zero difference between a min-max character played a certain way and a roleplayed character played the same way.|
Goblin Squad Member
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1. UNKNOWN: The rate at which your alignment drifts to core.
2. UNKNOWN: Exactly how much mechanical benefit a LG character will have over a LE or CE or any other alignment for that matter.
3. UNKNOWN: Whether you can set your core alignment as one thing, consistently play as another, and not be penalized by the system for doing that. The devs have said that it'll be advantageous to shift your core alignment to match your playstyle if they're frequently out of sync, but I suppose we should ignore all that until there's an official blog post, right?
4. UNKNOWN: What alignment you will register as for a Detect Alignment spell if your core and active do not synch up.
5. UNKNOWN: Whatever you claim to know about grinding alignment. There was nothing said that I can see which would even remotely point to a need to grind alignment. In fact, you seem to directly contradict yourself when you say simultaneously that you should "set and forget" alignment and that you should also have to grind alignment.
Little aside, it's likely that most players will ignore alignment because they will find out what alignment their playstyle pushes them towards, set their core alignment to that, and never have to worry about it again. But I suppose you can assume Ryan was indicating something contrary to what he's always said.
Yeah. This.
I have my personal soft spots for certain alignments I have played over the years. But you need to treat PFo like its own campaign, with its own house rules. If I set my alignnment dead center TN and just watch what happens, then eventually I should know what my alignment in this game is and set accordingly.
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If GW or enough of the community consider it a problem that people set their core alignment to a point they don't actually play simply to take advantage of drifting back that way, perhaps there could be a mental-stat debuff which gets worse the farther from your core or the longer you've been away from it. I'd probably call it 'cognitive dissonance' and allow some leeway by having the early bit inflict no mechanical penalty, just letting the debuff icon act as a warning to either change your behaviour or re-examine what your stance truly is. Something like that could even serve as a mechanic for divine powers getting weaker and eventually shutting down, as the divine casting stats get debuffed, like a dimmer instead of a simple toggle switch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The character concepts that won't be worth playing will be the concepts similar to "I judge everyone that I meet, and attempt to kill anyone that I think I can."Fortunately, not one person has expressed this as their character concept. This is a red herring and beneath the discussion.
Not one individual has written that they are looking to play outside of sanctioned PvP methods.
Wow. Did that strike a nerve or something? I don't see Decius pointing any fingers...
In that case his post was even more inane. At least if he were pointing a finger it would have had a place in the discussion. It could have been easily refuted as well.
As for it striking a nerve with me, not really. This is not really my fight, although I am fighting it.
Once the SAD mechanic was removed from the Outlaw Flag (Chaotic) that freed the UNC from having to be Chaotic. We are looking seriously at going back to our LN / LE company core alignment. That way we could justify our adherence to the River Freedoms as a code and kill as a pragmatic decision. Through the use of SADs, Feuds, Wars and Faction we will raid, pillage and slaughter to our heart's content and avoid all of the alignment and reputation consequences.
If need be, we will grind alignment or reputation. That as I see it is "working as intended".
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Goblin Squad Member
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... perhaps there could be a mental-stat debuff which gets worse the farther from your core or the longer you've been away from it. I'd probably call it 'cognitive dissonance'...
Personally, I'm really fond of making Core Alignment utterly meaningless except for the very simple purpose of controlling the direction of the automatic drifts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In that case his post was even more inane. At least if he were pointing a finger it would have had a place in the discussion.
Yeah, Decius really came out of left field with that quote, huh...
I guess... cetain character concepts just won't be worth playing.The character concepts that won't be worth playing will be the concepts similar to "I judge everyone that I meet, and attempt to kill anyone that I think I can."
Good thing you're here to keep us all on our toes. I'd hate for someone to get away with making a totally irrelevant point that wasn't related to anything in the thread without being insulted by you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm in favor of well-played 'evil' (not that I'm any good at it). But if I were going to play a charming, urbane, manipulative wizard with a "rules don't apply to me" and a "I put my self first" attitude, I wouldn't choose to self-label as CE. I'd label as something else and game the system - setting my mantra as "rules don't apply to me." Lots of 'good' villains hide that way.Indeed they do and that was just one example to show the range a chaotic evil can have. People love to associate chaotic evil with chaotic stupid.
I just don't like the idea of gaming the system for mechanical benefit as there are a lot of other great character concepts that would get destroyed by the current alignment system. However that apparently is "working as intended".
Reason why a lot of people associate chaotic evil with chaotic stupid is because that is usually what happens.
Of my 20+ years of roleplaying with the various groups I have been in (I moved around a lot) I can only think of 2 people that I played with that could really pull off playing Chaotic Evil w/o being Chaotic Stupid.
And I'm not one of them. Frankly I find it too hard for me to stay Chaotic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reason why a lot of people associate chaotic evil with chaotic stupid is because that is usually what happens.
Of my 20+ years of roleplaying with the various groups I have been in (I moved around a lot) I can only think of 2 people that I played with that could really pull off playing Chaotic Evil w/o being Chaotic Stupid.
And I'm not one of them. Frankly I find it too hard for me to stay Chaotic.
It's really not too far off from the people playing Paladins as Lawful-Stupid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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B & N:
At this point it seems that if one of you switched positions on a topic, the other would as well, just to continue being contrary. Is there any opinion which you two actually share?
I'm guessing that B is Bluddwolf and N is Nihimon.
I think I've been generally consistent that I really want a PvP game where the PvP has meaningful consequences. I'm not sure what's made you think I've changed (or would change) my stance on something just so I could disagree with Bluddwolf.
Do they have team colors picked out yet? I can't go with blue as it doesn't suit me