Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with that point fully, Nihimon. EVE does offer a lot more than "Space Murder Simulator".
It also offers a lot more than "Spreadsheets Online", that was "oh so 2004!" This is not to say you can't reduce the game to that or to a Murder Sim, but those are minorities that can largely be ignored.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... Being your attempt to call out people who disagree with certain aspects of the developer's ideas as wishing for "EZ-mode" PvP and wanting to harm the overall success of the game was a poor attempt to misstate our intentions, but a fine piece of bloviation.
Quelle Horreur! I simply can't imagine what it must feel like to have someone intentionally misstate my position in order to try to mock and disparage it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Around 65% +/- 5% of players at a given time "live" in high sec i.e. never left the nest. I'm not aware of anything that asked how often they wandered out of it.
I have 3 years, dozens of millions skill points, and scores of billions of coin worth of experience in EVE which absolutely cannot be parsed down to a simplistic this was good this was bad feature set.
THIS WAS GOOD
Running the Gauntlet in Low-Sec - That's right, knowing the danger is out there and the geographic region it will be in, it's fun to put on a disposable ship and go see what you can get away with. Get better pay for PvE missions and mine rarer rocks. Alternately my production station was required to be in low sec so I took my fancy transport there. Some pirates were waiting at a gate and their tackler tried to hold me but one feature of my fancy transport is brushing off one tackler so I basically gave them the finger as I comfortably strolled off on my business.
The Skills - For a long time there was almost nothing giving that level of freedom and with the addition of a skill queue and especially certificates (functionally, a suggested map of related skills to get to be good at a specified task) it turned a-f'n-mazing. The queue is moot for PO but the certificates are a major boon to anyone which The Secret World did and called decks and those are great too.
The Economy - Was a minigame itself. Where to buy low, where to sell for the best price. I played my last year entirely on other people's dimes by running my own production chain and selling popular mining vessels (Hulks) in the places that needed them most and buying two 30-day PLEXs per month for my two characters with in-game currency.
The Harvesting - This is 100% because the first material you can mine in your first hour of playing stays hugely relevant all the way through to the top crafting alongside all the other materials. To make the top end stuff you also need top end materials from dangerous places, of course. No matter how fancy or maxed out my mining skills got, the most profitable rocks per time spent mining were almost always the second to bottom or bottom on the rarity list. The mining itself is incredibly boring but a great chance to review certificate progress or talk with corpmates for a few hours.
The Crafting - Anybody can make one or two of the common basics at a time (it takes real world time after you set up the machines to do it) very easily. You have to train and train and train to make many things at once and more efficiently to potentially sell at profit. A big deal: you're not limited to two crafts out of the full list I hate that trope.
Ship Building - It's essentially a funny-looking paper doll. You still have hp, armor & resistances, mana (cap), weapons of varied range and strength, and slots to fit with purpose oriented gear that requires more expertise to use as higher level versions perform better. A fun challenge to learn and get everything supporting itself in a positive feedback loop. The ships themselves are basically the classes from small fast interceptors and stealth bombers that pop if they hit a crack in the sidewalk to my favorites the mid-size battlecruisers that have durability, mobility and a heavy bite to capital ships so big they can't hit anything smaller than a city but bring the lightning of Zeus when they do.
That Time They Lost Their S%*t Over A Monocle - And broke a solar system in protest.
THIS WAS BAD
Bubble camps when I just want to get from here to there. Or that HIC team when I was just questing in Low Sec that stopped my pod from warping out and was the first (only) time I lost expensive implants.
[Edit: More discussion happened while I typed that. The point was to provide one perspective of what keeps someone who hates the murder simulator aspect still playing EVE for those who haven't played it. You have to find your own parallels to PO]
It should be noted as well that the majority of characters in null sec also keep one or more characters in high sec to make them money to finance their fleet actions a lot of the 65% of characters that never leave hisec will therefore be alts of null sec players.
While I have no statistics to point at for how many "a majority" is in terms of how many keep alts in hisec I do have anecdotal evidence in that no nullsec player I know does not have a high sec alt and many of those I know have more than one hisec alt
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only "system" I have objected to is attaching game mechanics with preconceived notions that amount to "Guilty, even if Proven Innocent".
Then you are retracting your opposition to the reputation system, the alignment system, the alignment penalty for CE behavior, and your antipathy for the faction system? You're retracting your contention that you can easily work around the rules to perform as CE while maintaining High Rep and LG alignment?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I second that, Being your attempt to call out people who disagree with certain aspects of the developer's ideas as wishing for "EZ-mode" PvP and wanting to harm the overall success of the game was a poor attempt to misstate our intentions, but a fine piece of bloviation.
Seeking to abolish proposed game rules that may be the only offset to all the advantages of being evil and chaotic (such as first strike capability) then you seek PvP EZ-mode. It isn't bloviation to point it out, it is calling a spade a spade. You appear to want to be able to initiate PvP indiscriminately without negative consequences nearly risk free (since you will be able to pick the time and place and target). In other words, EZ-mode PvP. Being able to pick a target and choose the time and place to initiate an attack is turning 'challenging' PvP combat into worse than PVE content because you aren't really going to surprise an AI mob. It can react faster.
You do not appear interested in 'challenging' PvP, but a system where predation is even easier than PvE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only "system" I have objected to is attaching game mechanics with preconceived notions that amount to "Guilty, even if Proven Innocent".Then you are retracting your opposition to the reputation system, the alignment system, the alignment penalty for CE behavior, and your antipathy for the faction system? You're retracting your contention that you can easily work around the rules to perform as CE while maintaining High Rep and LG alignment?
Let me break these down, one by one:
1. I have no objection to there being a Reputation System, although I may disagree with some of its implementation.
2. I have no issue with the alignment system shift alignment to match actions.
3. I see the Faction system as having some usefulness, although I would like for them to be impacted by player interaction over time.
4. I can easily role play CE, within the desired forms of sanctioned PvP and therefore avoid reputation loss.
So I don't need to retract anything, you just need to more accurate portrait my objections.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose I must need a clearer portrait indeed, because this recent assertion:The only "system" I have objected to is attaching game mechanics with preconceived notions that amount to "Guilty, even if Proven Innocent".Then you are retracting your opposition to the reputation system, the alignment system, the alignment penalty for CE behavior, and your antipathy for the faction system? You're retracting your contention that you can easily work around the rules to perform as CE while maintaining High Rep and LG alignment?Let me break these down, one by one:
1. I have no objection to there being a Reputation System, although I may disagree with some of its implementation.
2. I have no issue with the alignment system shift alignment to match actions.
3. I see the Faction system as having some usefulness, although I would like for them to be impacted by player interaction over time.
4. I can easily role play CE, within the desired forms of sanctioned PvP and therefore avoid reputation loss.
So I don't need to retract anything, you just need to more accurate portrait my objections.
The Devs have the obligation for the spirit and the mechanics of the game to be as one.
appears to contradict your current position. Somehow you have determined that you are arbiter of the spirit of the game and of the mechanics GW is describing in such a manner as to suggest they are different.
And in fact you have just retracted the most significant points of contention that you have ventured in these forums over the past year.
You have, in the past, had a problem with factions, the alignment system, reputation, everything.
Now you wish to assure us that you have no objection to reputation mechanics, alignment mechanics, factions, or your ability to play CE as if those had always been your position. While that is wonderful I suppose, perhaps I have over time gained an unclear portrait of your position(s) because they are patently unclear, chaotic and fluid. I am uncertain whether your positions change with convenience or design or complete accident, but they definitely change.
This leads me to believe that perhaps your clarity on the proper 'spirit of the game' and your evaluation of whether that spirit of the game match up might not also be rather fluid. You are chaotic, ruled by passion, and may not be able to accurately tell whether the 'spirit' of the game meshes well with the game mechanics they are building.
Perhaps instead of my gaining a clearer portrait of your positions, you should seek out a clearer portrait of PFO, its 'spirit', and how the mechanics mesh with that spirit. I am referencing, for example, your assertions about what the game is and is not, such as this:
Yes I know Ryan thinks it is a major system, but it is not, and it won't be what sells PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being is obviously lawfulLawful is a relative term. To CE I appear LG, to LG I appear CE. To LE I appear CG and to CG I appear LE.
WAI.
Sorry to quote myself but you were spot-on that in RL I'm lawful and have no sense of humor that we are aware of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Being
There are just too many points where you are wrong, disingenuous and or purposefully omitting context for me to point out each. It would be too time consuming.
I disagree with your assessment, your conclusions and your opinion.
I further state, I stand by the 4 points I made above and see no way that they contradict what I have stated previously.
The quote that you snipped "The Devs have the obligation for the spirit and the mechanics of the game to be as one."
I fully stand by this and it does not in any way contradict what I listed in the 4 points. It is actually not even related to this discussion here, which is why taking it out of context is disingenuous.
You will have to do better than that to find an inconsistency in my views. Usually when I change my opinion, which I have done on occasion, I usually credit the person who changed my mind.
Today was not your day.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Do we have any good numbers on how many players play EVE and rarely if ever leave High Sec?
No, and don't believe anyone who says they do. CCP has tried to study this question several times and they keep running into the same problem - it's almost impossible to tell the difference between a player and an account. CCP knows how many characters rarely leave hi-security space, and they know how many accounts those characters belong to, and they could reduce that further and find accounts with no characters that spend any time outside hi-security space (and here things start to get real fuzzy, how long does one have to be in lower security space before you classify them as not living in high-security space, etc.)
What it cannot determine is how many humans sit behind those accounts. Many people have multiple accounts. Many households have multiple accounts which may not be used by the same people. Some people intentionally obfuscate the fact that they have multiple accounts.
Every attempt, so far as I know, to get past this issue has failed. So CCP doesn't know how many of its players are high-security only players, and therefore nobody else does either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@nihimon
I can tell you why a good number of my friends play it and why i played it for a bit.
For starters its basically the only good space MMO out there. If you want to be about space ships its really your only choice, there is STO but ehhh.
The second part is that its brutally hands off by CCP. A decent number of my friends really like that. If you want something you take it, if you want a base you better be organized enough to defend it. If you want the best ships you have to be in nul sec as the better ones are not allowed in the lower sec areas. For them it is about being good enough to take and hold what they took. they accepted the fact that their ships and such would get blown up and taken from them, they accepted the fact that people can target them and make a go at them, and for them that added excitement to the game.
For me I didnt like eve for two reasons, the first is that im not really into space ship style games and the second is that while i enjoy the sandbox hand having to earn, defend, keep things, i felt that they were too hands off with if you can do it its a feature.
What had attracted me to PfO was the hopes of a game like EVE but without a lot of the random toxic behavior that I couldnt stand in EVE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What had attracted me to PfO was the hopes of a game like EVE but without a lot of the random toxic behavior that I couldnt stand in EVE.
I can totally relate :)
I definitely prefer Fantasy to Space. I like PvP, but don't like random murder-fests or meaningless Arenas/Battlegrounds. I love the idea of having to fight over scarce resources and the risk of seeing your entire Nation reduced to a memory. I also really, really liked EVE's system of advancement-over-time.
Your Pathfinder Online Character was the blog that hooked me - I've done the level-grind a few too many times. If I recall correctly, I was "between MMOs" - having given up on Vanguard and been disappointed by the other offerings - when that blog was released. Ryan's solution to the problem of level-grinds, and the way I saw that freeing me up to do what I wanted in-game, rather than racing through levels, really appealed to me. I'm still awestruck by a lot of the ideas Ryan and the devs have thrown at us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think alot of the cognitive disconnect on Alignment comes from those of us with RP backgrounds on either TableTop, MUD/MUSHes or LARP's and are viewing the "Alignment" issue from that perspective. I've already expressed the opinion elsewhere that I dislike Alignment even in TableTop but in those sorts of games, especialy the MUDS/MUSH'S those who played villians, including those who would self-describe those characters as CE litteraly NEVER killed another players character without that players consent. Because the first rule of role-playing is that you never do anything to another players character which that player hasn't assented to. So I think you are getting a very large "WTF" from those of us who have played in such environments to the concept (that some of you seem to hold) that you can't PLAY a fiend and be perfectly freindly and nice and act within both the letter and spirit of a games rules as a player.
Furthermore, ontop of that. Most of the truely "Evil" and feindish characters that I saw played well in such environments hardly ever touched a blade themselves. They concentrated on sowing strife and discord with thier words, Upon corrupting and disillusioning hero's and innocents and upon manipulation of people and events. Most of what you guys seem to confine your definition of "CE" in PFO context, we would generaly classify as "rabidly insane".
I hope that explains some of the difference in viewpoints. Also I think it's fair to note that many of those coming to PFO looking for something remaniscint of PF TableTop are going to experience a very strong WTF moment anyway....since PFO is not at all reminiscint of the TableTop experience...which is not at all about PvP or about Kingdom Building/Territory Control or about Massive Numbers of players. Frankly a game similar to the TableTop experience would likely be a heavly instanced ThemePark design around modules. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Being
There are just too many points where you are wrong, disingenuous and or purposefully omitting context for me to point out each. It would be too time consuming.
I disagree with your assessment, your conclusions and your opinion.
I further state, I stand by the 4 points I made above and see no way that they contradict what I have stated previously.
The quote that you snipped "The Devs have the obligation for the spirit and the mechanics of the game to be as one."
I fully stand by this and it does not in any way contradict what I listed in the 4 points. It is actually not even related to this discussion here, which is why taking it out of context is disingenuous.
You will have to do better than that to find an inconsistency in my views. Usually when I change my opinion, which I have done on occasion, I usually credit the person who changed my mind.
Today was not your day.
Every day is my day if I still breath.
Bluddwolf: On Alignment
Bluddwolf: On Reputation
Bluddwulf: On Wars should be consensual
Bluddwolf: On Wars should not be consensual
Bluddwolf: On alignment
Bluddwolf": On rules in a sandbox
Bluddwolf: On Flagging
Bluddwolf: On alignment and gods
Bluddwolf: On alignment
Bluddwolf: On Factions
Bluddwolf: On Flagging
Bluddwolf: Wishing for the return of flags
Bluddwolf: On RP and Crafting
Bluddwolf: Alignment is not meaningful
Well: I'm out of the time I'm willing to allot to this history.
My research indicates you may have been the first advocate to propose both the SAD mechanic and the Hideout mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My research indicates you may have been the first advocate to propose both the SAD mechanic and the Hideout mechanic.
Uhm, no.
Bluddwolf's first post was on December 29th, 2012. Hideouts were introduced in Player-Created Buildings and Structures on February 29th, 2012, a full ten months before that.
Although it's likely true that Bluddwolf's posts were instrumental in inspiring the devs to come up with the Stand and Deliver mechanic.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Nihimon: This is what CCP believed when I left. Some of it is backed up by market research, some of it is opinion - some of that opinion is the CCP consensus, some is my own.
1: It's beautiful and people like seeing beautiful things
2: It's the only mainstream MMO where you are able to make a persistent impact on the shared world
3: It is very hard and some people like to master hard things; it is coupled with a conquest mechanic so you can test yourself and see if you are as good as you think you are
4: It has a robust social network of people who like the things you like and who share a culture that unifies the community
5: It is science fiction and there are few space opera science fiction MMOs (other than Star Trek Online, I can't think of any)
6: You can act like a horrific jerk and create untold suffering while being told by some people that what you are doing is awesome
7: It's not an American game. Non-Americans represent a majority of players, and there are large non-American player blocs with substantial in-game power. The designers are mostly not Americans. It's mostly built outside America.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Furthermore, ontop of that. Most of the truely "Evil" and feindish characters that I saw played well in such environments hardly ever touched a blade themselves. They concentrated on sowing strife and discord with thier words, Upon corrupting and disillusioning hero's and innocents and upon manipulation of people and events
YES, YES, YES
This is me. This is what I have been talking about.|
Goblin Squad Member
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@ Being
I've noticed that you seem to have missed the sarcasm in some of my posts, and misinterpreted them as being what I honestly believed rather than making the negative point they were intended to do. The best example was the RP and Crafting link you used.
I think you should also bear in mind the fact that I have written over 4000 posts in about 13 months and pulling just one example for each issue may convey the wrong impression.
@ Nihimon
Although I may have been the first to coin the phrases of "SAD"; the "One Copper Piece SAD"; and "Green Hat" as a metaphor for CE actions, they were all inspired by the input if others as well.
SADs may have actually come from a debate that Andius and I had been having, way back when. It was I believe a way to allow Chaotic Good bandits to ply their profession without having to resort to killing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My point wasn't copy it, my point was that they must be doing something right.If PFO was to try to become an EVE-clone, then it would probably fail just like so many WoW-clones. A new game should always strive to be different and hopefully new.Yet EVE is highly successful and still gaining subscribers after 10 years.I've never played EVE but almost all the comments I have seen about EVE's PVP is that it is toxic. Regardless if it is or not, perception will usually rule the day.
If PFO can get a reputation outside of the game as being non-toxic PVP, it will most likely draw a great deal of new players to at least try it out.
The reason Eve is considered Toxic here on the PFO boards and PFO "community" is because Ryan said it is. The reason Ryan thinks its toxic is because he had a large number of players attack him. I wasnt part of it, so I cant say more. (I dont blame him for having that fealing btw)
When I run into people in other games or on other boards or even at the local game shop... No one says Eve is toxic. They either say its to complicated for the limited time they play or they do not like pvp.
Past that its all right here on the PFO boards.
Want to make PFO better then Eve?
-Remove scamming - done
-Remove griefing - done
-Make a better Sovereignty mechanic - working on it
-Base it on D&D - done
Thats about it.
But remember 1 thing...
If you dilute PVP to much, you will never make the game better then Eve. PVP is what makes Eve fun, everything else is grinding... which you can get plenty of in Themepark games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But remember 1 thing...
If you dilute PVP to much, you will never make the game better then Eve. PVP is what makes Eve fun, everything else is grinding... which you can get plenty of in Themepark games.
Where PvP is the objective. PvP may be what makes Eve fun, but PvP is not the end-all be-all for every player. It will certainly be what makes PFO fun for those who enjoy Eve. It will not be what makes PFO fun for those who do not enjoy Eve. I don't intend to minimize PFO's expression of PvP, but only encourage inclusion of the other strengths of the Pathfinder franchise.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Of course we do not want the other parts of a sandbox game diluted. I do not think GW has any intentions of that in PFO.
I sure hope the achievement (feats?) system in PFO is not like darkfall... What a nonsensical grind that was.
Finally, something I think we all can agree on! I don't really want to kill 170 frost tigers as part of learning how to make Pointy Armor 3.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The reason Eve is considered Toxic here on the PFO boards and PFO "community" is because Ryan said it is. The reason Ryan thinks its toxic is because he had a large number of players attack him.
Wait...what? I have no idea what you're talking about. When I was at CCP nobody in EVE knew who I was.
EVE's toxicity isn't just some opinion I pulled out of my ass. It's the consensus opinion of thousands of people who tried it and fled after being exposed to its community. Toxicity is one of the major reasons people don't like that game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I remember, there was a massive onslaught at you by the Goons in particular. I couldnt tell you when... could have been before or after you left...
This is the only place I have seen that opinion. Granted, I dont get on a ton of forums.
As someone with no vested interest in EVE, I can tell you from various articles on gaming sites and other's opinions that the feeling that EVE's culture is toxic is not something that Ryan made up; that's what the general public hears of it, though most of the reason for that is likely people who tried the game once, got ganked, and ragequit quickly. The problem is that the public opinion is kind of a difficult thing to sway; once it gets momentum in one direction it takes a lot of effort to move it.
(And of course, this is just coming from one person, so you can take my anecdotal "evidence" with a grain of salt. Maybe I have heard different from the norm.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've played Eve for 5 years. It's toxic. I don't see other games with a culture where if a newbie complains about being ganked the response is, "When you quit, can I have your stuff?"
That is in every MMO, it is pop culture, and did not begin with EvE. By this measure, every Multiplayer game with a forum is toxic.
@Ryan,
When you left CCP, did anyone ask you "Can I haz yer Stuff?" Just kidding, but you have to admit that would have been funny.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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From what I remember, there was a massive onslaught at you by the Goons in particular. I couldnt tell you when... could have been before or after you left...
I have no idea why any Goon would have any opinion about me in regards to EVE. I had no interaction with them at all. There might be goons who carry baggage about my time as a tabletop game publisher but that's got nothing to do with EVE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is why eve is "toxic"
Interestingly enough Pirates of the Burning Sea has the second steepest learning curve on that graphic. I'm guessing that had to do with the ever changing landscape of PvP zones and at times I remember the entire map was practically red.
The skill system in POTBS was also not just about what skills you had, but what order you used them and when you triggered them while at the same time maneuvering your ship and managing the UI for changing conditions. It really was quite a decent system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not even close, Xeen.
I mean, the chart is accurate, but that has nothing to do with a culture of scamming and abuse.
Scamming is what the game allows (very obvious as scams, the not at all obvious scams are fixed.) The people are the toxicity. Terming a game as something because of the people is just bs, since they are in every game doing the same things when they can. Ive seen it on every forum and in every general chat window in every game Ive played.
They used to allow griefing, but now its termed as harassment... which is a bannable offense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They used to allow griefing, but now its termed as harassment... which is a bannable offense.It takes a very long time to lose such a reputation.
The griefing that went on was as easily avoidable as scamming. It only mattered when you participated in it. Most of the reputation follows that learning curve.... People quit before they could learn the game.
So yeah... Its why eve is "toxic"...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Different people view reality through different filters, and will come to different conclusions about anything that is subject to interpretation. Toxicity is one of those things that will vary based on what you perceive and how you value it. Something that is toxic to player A may not affect Player B at all. That doesn't mean either one is right or wrong, only different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They used to allow griefing, but now its termed as harassment... which is a bannable offense.It takes a very long time to lose such a reputation.The griefing that went on was as easily avoidable as scamming. It only mattered when you participated in it. Most of the reputation follows that learning curve.... People quit before they could learn the game.
So yeah... Its why eve is "toxic"...
You're conflating toxicity with being overwhelmed by the game. People not desiring to put in time and effort to learn to play a complex game and quitting for that reason doesn't make it toxic. People getting mocked and chased out because the culture in the game encourages it makes it toxic. If other games have the same toxic cultures, they need to be called out for their toxicity too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At between 400 and 500,000 subscriptions after 10 years, I don't think CCP cares if a few thousand hold that view.They used to allow griefing, but now its termed as harassment... which is a bannable offense.It takes a very long time to lose such a reputation.
Bully for them. How many of them are alt accounts? (Answer: We'll never know.) But I guess that means you're right. GW should just give up on PFO altogether because EVE is perfect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bully for them. How many of them are alt accounts? (Answer: We'll never know.) But I guess that means you're right. GW should just give up on PFO altogether because EVE is perfect.At between 400 and 500,000 subscriptions after 10 years, I don't think CCP cares if a few thousand hold that view.They used to allow griefing, but now its termed as harassment... which is a bannable offense.It takes a very long time to lose such a reputation.
I didn't say EvE is perfect. It doesn't have swords, and it has the toxic behaviors of Care Bears.
;-P
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Goblin Squad Member
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and it has the toxic behaviors of Care Bears.So not wanting to be exposed to toxic behaviour is toxic behaviour in itself now?
Care Bears are not toxic because they don't want griefing. Care Bears are also not monolithic in their views, there are variants of Carr bearism.
A toxic care bear in my definition is one that sees all non consensual or in general all PvP as toxic. Some even see all risk and loss, including item decay as toxic. Them there are those who take no responsibility for their choices and take no precautions for their own protection. They would rather complain about their victimhood than do anything on their own to mitigate it. They will be the first to troll the forums, calling for nerfs if stiffer penalties for legitimate PvP.
These are the type of militant Care Bears that I see as toxic. I hope that we do not have to suffer their presence for long, the same as true griefers. I hope that they come, do not like the game and leave.
I do not hold the same opinion of players who just don't like PvP. They are not even Care Bears in my opinion, just players that don't like PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not hold the same opinion of players who just don't like PvP.Judging from your post history I do not believe you.
Hobs does not like PVP, and I get along with him just fine. Reason being, He doesn't whine about it. He doesn't look for game mechanics to do what players can or should do for themselves.