Tiny Creature with Reach Weapon

[Cao Phen]

Would a tiny creature with a reach weapon have a threaten range of 5 feet, and no threaten range of their current square of 0 feet?

[Kolyarut]

There's no explanation to be found for this, but check out this series of figures. They show that reach weapons double a creature's natural reach, and the Tiny category has a listed natural reach of 0. So the RAW says that you double 0 to get 0. :P

I bet any reasonable GM would just houserule that they get bumped up to 5ft though.

[DM_Blake]

I tend to rule that it doesn't work this way.

I cannot, for example, imagine a cat wielding a 5' stick. Or a person the size of a cat wielding a 5' stick. That would be equivalent to a human wielding a 30' long stick. Just not practical.

Based on that, I think that by the time we're dealing with tiny or smaller creatures, they cannot attack adjacent squares, even with reach.

However, I'm not sure of any RAW that says otherwise. In fact, RAW says "Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe." So, by RAW, a tiny faerie could use a tiny longspear (about what, 1' foot long) to attack TEN feet away.

Then again, there is this from the combat section:

"Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more."

So maybe RAW does support my ruling that tiny creatures don't get any benefit (or lose anything either) when using Reach weapons appropriately sized for them. All bets are off if a tiny creature uses a Small reach weapon, but other than a whip, I cannot think of any weapon that is either Light or One-handed that has reach (tiny creatures cannot use Small two-handed weapons because of the effort rules).

TL;DR: I don't think RAW allows tiny creatures to gain any threatened squares by using tiny reach weapons, but maybe using a small whip as a two-handed weapon (or a small scorpion whip as a one-handed weapon or even a medium scorpion whip as a two-handed weapon) would actually work.

[Ravingdork]

Pretty sure I've seen an official statblock somewhere of tiny creatures using reach weapons to be able to attack things 5 feet away.

[DM_Blake]

Hmmm, it seems that Kolyarut and I have a different definition of "reasonable GM". That's cool. I have no idea who's right, and I can agree to disagree on opinions.

[Bizbag]

Depends on the creature, I think; there's no real RAW either way.

Small creatures are proportionally stronger (so to speak) than larger ones due to Square/Cube laws, so wielding a reach stick may not be outside the realm of possibility, especially for magic creature. Especially since not all reach weapons are spears; swinging a pole axe is more palatable.

[Nefreet]

There are statblocks that have tiny-sized creatures wielding reach weapons, giving them a reach of 5 ft. I do not recall any rules as written on the matter, but it's easy enough to understand. If your GM is dead set on it not working, though, then you're out of luck.

[Glutton]

Pseudodragon help? No? How bout the Twigjack. Reach 0 ft. (5 ft. with spear)

[DmRrostarr]

This was answered in like a FAQ or Sage Advice or something, cuz I read it somewhere and it stated that creatures with a reach of 0 using a reach weapon could strike a creature in an adjacent square.

I'm off to find where I read that...

[DmRrostarr]

Yay found it!!!

From James Jacobs's thread ("Ask JJ anything here" thread)

James:

Two questions about reach (I know you answered Lunes questions but mine, while related are different or restated for clarification purposes):

CRB p141 wrote:
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Please note the bolded section for the following questions.

1) A tiny or smaller creature has a reach of zero. Double of zero = zero.
1A) What is the reach of a tiny or smaller creature with a longspear? 1B) If greater than zero can the tiny or smaller creature attack in his own square or adjacent squares?

2) A Small or Medium creature using a Whip has a reach of 15'. This is not 'double natural reach' but is in fact triple the natural reach.
2A) What is the reach of a Large creature with a natural reach of 10 when using a whip? (20feet is double, 30feet is triple)
2B) What is the reach of a Huge creature with a natural reach of 15 when using a whip? (30feet is double, 45feet is triple)
2C) What is the reach of a Tiny or smaller creature with a natural reach of 0 when using a whip? (0feet is double, 0 feet is triple, see question 1)

First off... all of these situations are strange corner cases that the rules don't specifically address, really, but here's how I'd answer all of them:

1) Giving a tiny or smaller creature a reach weapon allows it to attack adjacent foes as if it were a Small or Medium creature.

2) Small is a weird size category that, for the purposes of reach weapons, works identically to Medium because that makes it easier and more balanced for Small PC races. And whips are unusual weapons in that they grant a much larger reach than normal.

2A) 30 feet.
2B) 45 feet.
2C) 10 feet.

[RJGrady]

Has this ever been addressed officially?

[Chess Pwn]

officially it doesn't do anything reach of 0 double is 0. Now have they officially changed it? No unfortunately.

[James Risner]

3.5 had an exception in the rules.
Pathfinder took the exception out of the rules.

Some stat blocks say yes reach 5' and some say no. Officially the answer is no. I've asked Jason in person about this and it didn't sound like there would be a change in the works.

Ask your GM for the 3.5 exemption.

[Imbicatus]

If you want an exception, hit the FAQ button. That's the only way this is going to be addressed officially.

[Joe Homes]

Disclaimer: This isn't an official ruling, as I don't have that authority.

However, such creatures appear in... (PFS Season 6 Spoiler)

Spoiler:

Pathfinder Society Scenario #6–16: The Overflow Archives. The tooth fairies have pliers with reach, and their reach is listed as 5 feet.

These Tiny creatures have reach weapons, and it's clear in that scenario that they're intended to have a reach of 5 feet.

Scenarios often have rules exceptions and subsystems, so it's not the strongest possible rules precedent, but there ya go.

[bookrat]

This has been addressed ever since this thread was opened. Look up Twigjacks. They are tiny creatures with a reach of 0, or a 5' reach with a spear.

It's an official Paizo source. It's right here in the PRD.

[Gaberlunzie]

The combination of several printed monster sheets and James Jacobs commentary, with no directly opposing examples/claims, makes me feel like this matter can be put to rest.

If it was just one of them or there are contrary examples I could see it still being debated, but literally everything points to that being the case.

[RJGrady]

I'm trying to create a playable Tiny race and this has become a glaring issue.

[joe kirner]

I want to make an ant man pc now.
He could use an oversized longspear.

[Kazaan]

You can back-engineer sufficient rules to explain the stat blocks. Essentially, you treat a tiny creature as having (5' -5') natural reach and apply reach multipliers only on the base 5'. So for a non-reach weapon, 5' -5' is 0' and they can only attack in their own square. For a normal reach weapon, 10' -5' is 5' and they can attack adjacent, but not in their own square (no more than a larger creature with a reach weapon could). For a whip, 15' -5' is 10' so they can attack out to 10' with no minimum. Diminutive creatures get -10' instead of -5' so a Diminutive needs a whip to even be able to attack adjacent, but they can attack in their own square with either a non-reach weapon or a non-whip reach weapon. Fine creatures get -15' and couldn't attack out of their own square with any weapon.