You've heard of the Strategy Guide coming out in May, right?
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I'll be honest with you, stutzj, I agree. I ran the BB for some friends who were wanting to try it out and I was amazed at how smooth and simple the game is when you take out attacks of opportunity. I would much rather play in a game without them now, or at least without AoO's from movement.
I've purchased most of the hard cover books, and still bought the BB later on because I too was looking for a less is more gaming approach.
The truth (for me) is that sometimes Pathfinder feels less like a RPG and more like a slog through a semester of college -- having to remember a zillion rules and keep text books (physical or PDF) on hand to look up said rules. Core, Mythic... what's next? Enhanced Epic Stupendous?
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Honestly, I prefer the complexity of Pathfinder. Tried playing these "less is more" type of games (Fate, 0e) and they either felt too generic (in the former case) or having little in options (in the latter). Also, for the life of me, I can't see people's problems with AoO. Maybe it's just me, but I've never been held up by trying to not provoke them. Either I move around, tumble, or just not care. Usually the latter.
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So, err, you want the CRB with a negligible amount of less content, in other words?
Honestly, I prefer the complexity of Pathfinder. Tried playing these "less is more" type of games (Fate, 0e) and they either felt too generic (in the former case) or having little in options (in the latter). Also, for the life of me, I can't see people's problems with AoO. Maybe it's just me, but I've never been held up by trying to not provoke them. Either I move around, tumble, or just not care. Usually the latter.
Whilst my tastes run in the opposite direction (simpler is better for me) I don't think it makes sense for Paizo to try and fill all markets.
Pathfinder is complicated with lots of options and there are many people like Odraude who like that. Energy spent making a simpler version of a complicated game is energy that could be spent refining the rules and coming up with even more options. It makes more sense for a company to focus on what they do well rather than trying to be good at everything.
I haven't. I can see how this would help newer players into the core line and seems to be a good idea. I'm not interested playing with the core rules and it seems to be a bit different from what I detailed above. I do think that there is a significant number of RPers who are interested in Pathfinder but want something a little bit more rules light/user friendly and the Beginner Box rules is perfect in that regard.
You probably wont see this for the same reason we arent going to see a 'pathfinder in space' game or anything else that has the potential to split paizo's audience. And that is what you are suggesting. The purpose of the BB was to introduce people to the game, and eventually have them buy products from the main game. That was it's sole purpose. If they expanded the begginer ruleset, it would become its own game. Some people would simply play that system, and eventually demand adventure support, and possibly supplements similar in scope (if not complexity) to the rpg line. That would not only divide paizo's efforts, and drive up its costs, it would also split its audience.
Paizo would be making extra books, writing them, editing them, printing them and shipping them, and most customers would buy from either one set or the other. Few would buy from both. So no only do their costs go up, revenue goes down. Lisa stevens (paizo's CEO) was one of the key people at wizards of the coast when they bought out TSR. One of the biggest reasons TSR failed was that it divided its audience between settings. If someone was playing greyhawk, they werent going to buy faerun books, so no only are you producing more books, you are selling fewer copies of each, driving up costs even further.
And that is just with settings. If you divide into separate rule sets, the divide is more severe. You cant even share basic products like bestiaries, or character option books. In interviews, Lisa and other key paizo people have been pretty adamant against this practice for very good reasons.
So while expanding the bb ruleset might gain paizo some customers, its extremely unlikely that it will bring in enough money to justify the increase cost, and the increased workload on their staff (or expansion of their staff).
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I think extending the BB paradigm to level ten is a seriously big undertaking. The game inherently gets that much more complicated as the levels increase - if the full compatibility was desired, I think it would take at least as much effort as it took to come up with the BB rules.
In addition, i really think the target market is pretty small (People who want the complexity of mid level pathfinder without having to do the calculations and choose from a plethora of options themselves). It's easy to extrapolate from our own experiences and assume we're "average". In reality we're probably all odd in our tastes in various ways.
FWIW, your idea would suit me great. I just don't think there's enough of us about to warrant diverting resources from the far more numerous pathfinder fans who enjoy ever widening options though.
It's actually not a smart business move. If there is one person that knows about the downfall of TSR, it's Lisa Stevens, the current CEO of Paizo. I believe he did the accounting and such when TSR went under and sold to Wizards of the Coast. One of the largest (if not THE) reasons why it went bankrupt was because of the countless settings and rules it tried to publish. See, if there is an Expert version of Pathfinder, which is for all intense and purposes a different rules line, they are splintering the fanbase. Suddenly, people that purchase the Expert rules would probably not buy any companions for the Core rulelines. Likewise, people that buy only the Core would probably not purchase anything in the Expert line. Why? Because neither side can make use of the other. Not to mention, they'd have to split resources to support both rulesets.
And what happens when the Expert line does do well? Suddenly they've wasted money on an idea and have to cut the line. And then, the fans of the Expert rules are now angry, because they feel like their ruleset shouldn't have been cancelled. Which means they lose customers. So instead of appealing to a diverse group, instead they are splintering their fan base, which is a terrible business move. And personally, given the amount of 0e clones out there, this really isn't an endeavor that's worth it.
The point of the BB wasn't to create a separate rules line. It was to make the bar of entry easier for younger people to get into playing Pathfinder. After the Beginner's Box, they are supposed to graduate to the Core rules. Sorry.
As for competing with D&D Next... well, I don't want to start an edition war here, but having seen and played the playtest packets, I feel there is little for Paizo to worry about ;)
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Has the Beginner Box split the customer base already? That seems like the single product that would have done that already. I guess I just don't see adding 5 more levels for a more of complete game would be that significant of a reason to split the customer base. I'm arguing, just make it a bit more complete. If it sells well...great, Paizo doesn't need to continue releasing products for it, they are after all the puppet masters :). Levels 1-10 with the expert supplement would probably still act well as a gateway game plus you would be be bring more customers like me in to buy PF products. A half complete game kind of sucks.
TSR did it badly. Paizo doesn't need to. I don't think they need to be afraid.
The Beginner Box hasn't split the base because it wasn't billed as alternate rules. It was billed as a starter kit to introduce players to the True rules. Putting in an Expert ruleset is going to make it seem as though there are two rulesets now, rather than the BB being the introduction.
And sure, they don't need to make more beyond the first ten levels... but you're going to have people that'll want up to level 15 or even 20. Clearly the Beginner's Box didn't satiate you. What makes you think having an Expert line would satiate its fans? People will say that the Expert line is only 'half-complete', since it doesn't go to 20. So now they'll have to print more rules for that and at that point, they have a new set of rules on their hands that some OSR people will prefer.
The Beginner's Box isn't half complete. The other half is the core rulebook. The Beginner's box was never meant to replace the Pathfinder Core Rules with a 0e retroclone. What you want is essentially a new ruleset that is a simpler, but in the end, it is a new ruleset. It may look like the Core and be based on the core, but with all the options removed, it's going to be a different beast. Honestly, there are enough OSR-themed games out that one can use, there's really no reason for Paizo to try and make another one.
Sorry man.
I am just asking Paizo to finish their rule set with a single supplement around 100 pages. I think there would be many people who would be happy with this and buy into existing products from the Pathfinder line(APs, Inner Sea Guide, Flip Mats etc) since the BB/EX would be more usable and complete game.
This is what I meant by extrapolating from your preferences and treating them as "average". Whilst it might be true for you, I don't think there's a large number of people not buying Paizo products who suddenly would if the "beginner version" covered ten levels instead of five.
I play predominantly 0E games. If I play PF I prefer just the beginner box. I don't really see why a large proportion of products are now unusable but will suddenly be worthwhile - I already buy and use almost everything except the high level modules. All that will change is that modules for levels 5-10 will be more usable.
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Mind you, I'm not trying to be an a!*%$$& or rain on anyone's parade. Hell, if a BB Part 2 comes out with level 6-10, I'll certainly come back to this thread, post a picture of me with my foot in my mouth, and give you a thumbs up. I just want to explain the reason why it's not going to be a reality. What Paizo wanted from the BB and what you want from it are two different things.
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As for levels 1-5 not working for long term play, sure they do. Just use event-based leveling instead of XP-based leveling. Or do something similar to what others do, and for every "level" gained past level 5, the players get extra feats and maybe some skill points. Characters still grow in power, but it's not as drastic and things like goblins never stop being a threat.
Here is a thread that can help with that. Ignore the few people who show up and complain about E6/P6 being an insult to the game, and if this is how you want to play, go for it.
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@Orthos Thanks for the link there. Looks great. I will check it out.
@Unruly - I can see how you view my request similar to what TSR did. I also think that your being a bit too simplistic in your judgment that by releasing a 'Expert' supplement would be the same thing that TSR did and would be bad business. According to your criteria, I would argue that Paizo is already doing what TSR did and that doesn't need to be a bad thing. I mean there is a entirely separate category on the Paizo website for "Pathfinder Beginner Box". So they have in effect created a separate rule system in which to play in the Pathfinder world even if the intent was to create a gateway game.
I'm not suggesting Paizo start a separate line and start releasing products only for that line. God no, they release enough products as it is and what TSR did with the basic line is just EXCESSIVE.
If TSR had stopped at just the B/X rulebook and not released anything else for that, they probably would not have a problem dividing their customer base. Every single D&D module released through 1989 could have worked for both systems (even beyond until 3rd IMO).
They would not have had the dividing customer base problem, but they would have the unhappy customer base problem. If people want a basic ruleset, they dont just want 2 books and then call it done. They will want support for it. Adventures, supplements, monster books, dm aids. Games that dont support their system often find their customers deeply unsatisfied. And paizo in particular has a business model around supporting everything they do. There are no one and done products in paizo. If they release a book theres a whole line of other products that go with it. That is their way, their model is based upon their fanbase purchasing new material regularly in the form of supplements and adventures. The purpose of the rules is to support their setting and adventure products.
Given that business model, an expert rules supplement would either be a waste (IE some people buy the bb and the expert book and stop buying paizo products) or it would for them to support the expert line with at the very least a series of adventures, thus dividing their fanbase. If people arent willing to move into the full rules after the 5 levels of the BB, they wont be willing after 10 levels and a few more classes, they want a simpler ruleset. They wont ever be buying adventure paths or campaign books using the core rules.
And some people that are on the 'bubble' of using the core rules but prefering a lighter option might move to the lighter rules, so not only do you not gain sales of the key products, you lose them.
All I am suggesting is for Paizo to fill in the gaps in their rule system so it appeals to the largest amount of players. "Expert" supplement would do this nicely. I do think that there is a gap between BB into Core Rules. It's a significant enough of gap for players/dms like me. I think releasing ONE product would go along way for providing a long term system for those like me.
There isnt a gap though. The bb isnt meant to be a ruleset. Its meant to transition new player to the core rules so they start using the core rules and buy other paizo products. That is its express purpose, and if people are interested in pathfinder, but need help getting started, it suits that purpose. If people want a simpler ruleset, paizo isnt set up to serve them anyway. You wouldnt get the service paizo prides itself on, and it would either not help, or actually hurt paizo's sales on key products.
Remember paizo's business model isnt based on rulebooks. Buying the rulebooks isnt want makes paizo's profits, its all the supplements and specifically the adventure paths (their flagship product). The rules are there to sell the adventure paths. If they arent writing adventures for these expert rules, then they dont serve paizo's business model.
Imagine that there are 100 D&D players. 40 like WOTC D&D, 40 like Pathfinder and 20 don't really have fun playing with complex rules, it just isn't their thing. 10 of those players go to OSR games and 10 feel sort of left out because they would love to have pretty/well produced RPGs to play with but who don't have that much fun with 576 page rule book. Why not provide a system for those 10 gamers that allows them to buy into your product line. Paizo's pathfinder line does not need to be divided. All modules, flip mats, products other than their rules systems could easily be shared even if they are officially released for Pathfinder Core.
Flip mats, sure, but not modules, or setting books, few people want to buy products they constantly need to convert. And in particular things like the adventure paths wouldnt work because they utilize the whole of pathfinder's ruleset. Wrath of the righteous could never work as a begginer box line product because it uses the mythis rules. In fact most of the adventure paths use subsystems and they all use rules and things from all over the pathfinder ruleset, making them very unsuitable for a stripped down version of the rules.
Your model is flawed because it doesnt actually include costs, and profits.
The margins on the begginer box, and in fact most rpg line books are very small. They are big and expensive to produce, and they are priced deliberately low (particularly the pdf versions) to offer entry into the system. Paizo is also commited to offering their rules for free to support their adventures and not make people feel 'forced' to buy a rulebook to run an adventure. Their profits come out of their adventures and campaign books.
So in your example, 40 people are playing pathfinder, and likely buying adventures and campaign material/player companions.. And they likely buy an rpg book now and again.
Those 20 people who want a lighter game, probably dont want the pathfinder adentures because they use all sorts of rules. And if you want a light game you dont want an adventure full of subsystems, and a wide variety of classes that dont exist in your light system. Not only that, but those 20 people are likely more attracted from a rules perspective to a number of other systems designed to suite their needs.
So in your example, for the expense of creating a rules expansion, and the risk of splitting their audience, they gain a smaller number of customers that will buy fewer of their products. It just doesnt make business sense.
I seriously think Paizo would attract more players overall if they provided a little more flexibility in their rules product line. I guarantee a more players would be interested.
More? Sure, but enough to justify the cost? Probably not.
So this is what I suggest in my Paizo dream world where I am the CEO and am trying to achieve world domination:
1. Release one more supplement for the BB to make the system more complete and draw longer term players who would otherwise not continue on to Core Rules so they can buy into my product line.
As stated, if they arent buying into the core rules after the bb, they wont be doing it after the 'expert' book. It simply isnt going to happen. And if they dont want to play pfrpg, they arent supporting paizo's business model which is based both on product support, and on renewable material (adventures and campaign books that people keep buying, as opposed to rulebooks, which everyone reaches a saturation point on eventually).
2. Include the transition guide in the back of the 'Expert' supplement.
No other products. No TSR 80's excess.
Except eventually the 'expert' fans would demand support for their product. And they would be right to ask for it. If paizo puts out a product they should support it, not just drop a set of rules and move on. And that is precisely what lead to TSR's excess. What you are asking for cant be done without either splitting their fanbase, increasing their overhead (by adding expert rules to existing product lines) or by upsetting their fanbase (creating a ruleset and then refusing to support it beyone 2 books).
Is it just me or is the beginner box just Pathfinder Core Lite? I haven't looked at the BB in a while and don't recall the specific deltas but I didn't think the BB introduced any new systems or mechanics to the game, only took out a few things that added complexity such as attacks of opportunity and maybe the CMB/CMD elements? If you took any of the existing core elements, a monster, a spell, etc. can't you use it either 100% as is or with a minimum of tweaks? Not saying it doesn't play looser (I haven't played it) but it hardly seems like extending the boxed set will add much. PFBB is a lot closer to core PF to me than D&D and AD&D were to each other (different level ranges, different races, race as class versus separate, different skill/non-weapon proficiency/weapon mastery systems, etc.). Mind you I played both flavors of D&D back in the day and saw them more differently then than now. I certainly think it's easy to steal from one or the other. I certainly use D&D 3.0 and 3.5 materials in Pathfinder games with little to no conversion and that's more different than using PFBB.
As an aside, I thought a lot of the split between D&D/AD&D as product lines was initially driven by legal reasons/paying royalties as much as it was due to complexity. I also thought that the bigger issues with TSR profitability weren't the separate rules product lines (I think they did quite well in the 80s) but were more driven by the explosion of campaign settings in the 90s as well as higher production costs for boxed sets and greater competition from other RPGs (Vampire, Shadowrun, etc.), Magic the Gathering and more sophisticated electronic gaming.
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I dont think you'd need a specific license (although any reference/connection to the Beginner Box would need to be oblique).
I think a 3PP could produce an "Expert Box" for levels 6-10 just under the OGL and probably the PF Compatibility license. Alternatively, a fanmade one could be produced under the Community Use Policy.
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I wrote something similar about wanting an expansion to the BB rules to level 10 here a couple of years ago, and the Paizo response was a resounding no, for the exact reasons given in this thread.
It wouldn't be too difficult to do it yourself (most of the actual work is done in OberonViking's link above): Add a couple of races and classes; level progression should follow the same pattern as the BB; a cut down selection of 4th and 5th level spells should be easy; a few more skills and feats, if you want to keep the rules simple then you shouldn't add many (survival skill is a glaring omission from the BB); about 50 more monsters would be needed (at a guess), picked from the bestiary so you have pawns available. Anything else?
I am currently writing a level 1-5 campaign for the BB which I might Kickstarter (if I ever get it finished and play tested). After that I was thinking of a level 5-10 campaign in the same setting using just CRB rules and Bestiary 1 monsters, but it might be interesting to write it for homebrewed expanded BB rules.
I don't see the point; I mean, who would it appeal to? People who just played the BB, and still don't feel comfortable with branching into the main rules? I don't think there's a huge market, since with the beginner's box, there's a reason behind it. People who've never played, and don't have a good enough grasp to jump into a full game. But by the time you've gone through the beginner's box, you've gone through 5 levels, and should have at least a grasp on the rules, enough to at least stumble your way through the CRB.
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I think it's a big leap from BB to CRB, especially if you are playing with children.
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What Paizo wanted from the BB and what you want from it are two different things.
That is a pretty good summary of this thread, in my opinion.
However, there's nothing stopping us from creating whatever we want for the Beginner Box and sharing it.
I think most of what you want can be downloaded here.
And this is a great start. Thank you very much for linking to this.
I think it's a big leap from BB to CRB, especially if you are playing with children.
Agreed.
I think some people underestimate just how inaccessible the CRB actually is. Moving from BECMI to AD&D to AD&D 2 to D&D 3.0 to D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder was relatively straightforward for me, but I'd hate to have had to start with Pathfinder. In parts the CRB is written with the (perhaps unconscious) assumption that the reader already knows how the game is supposed to work.
The leap is then made even bigger by the Beginner Box being such a well written introduction. If it was harder to follow, and organised in a more haphazard manner, then it would have been better preparation for wrestling with the CRB.
The BB is a "demo" version of pathfinder that you pay for. A demo like you can get for, say, warcraft 3. It contains the first few levels and the rest is locked away (kinda). From a company perspective, expanding on the demo, adding more levels and units etc, is a bad idea since.it lessens peoples desire to buy the full product.
Though a 3pp could of course still benefit from releasing such a thing. Or homebrew it, maybe.
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The BB is a "demo" version of pathfinder that you pay for. A demo like you can get for, say, warcraft 3. It contains the first few levels and the rest is locked away (kinda). From a company perspective, expanding on the demo, adding more levels and units etc, is a bad idea since.it lessens peoples desire to buy the full product.
There are some people who aren't going to buy the full product anyway - but they would buy an Expert set, and a Beginner Box conversion of Crypt of the Everflame (and the Flip Mat, and maybe the Bestiary Box), Masks of the Living God and City of Golden Death.
If they are fans of Sandpoint, they might buy Beginner / Expert Box conversions of the first two parts of Rise of the Runelords and Jade Regent (and the goblins prequel).
But, in the absence of any support for the Beginner Box, they might switch to Swords and Wizardry and never spend another penny on Paizo products ever again.
Paizo are a small company, and can't cater for everybody. I respect the business decisions they have taken, which seem to have worked out very well for them over the years.
However, the Beginner Box excited me more than any other product they brought out in the past few years, and I'd like to see them do more with it.
I think it would do well but it would a splitting of their designer resources they probably have the people to do, sadly.
I would prefer it to game with my kids, for sure. They layout rocks and it is eye catching, quicker and fun
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This has been an interesting thread to read.
I am sure there are people who started earlier then I. I began playing in the early to mid 80s.
I began with the "red box". My friends and I had fun with our elves, halflings, Dwarves, fighters, clerics, Mages, and Thieves. Then a couple of years later we "discovered " Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. We had paladins.....we had more stuff......and well. We didn't play much basic any more. One of my friends did stick with basic however. While I occasionally played Basic with him, more often he played with our group. Now I can only speak for myself and my experience, but I don't think people did too much switching back and forth between the two systems.
So with a complete beginner system, I don't think many of those players will move onto the core system. Perhaps there are people who simply don't want to make the jump, who prefer a simpler system. But as the saying goes, an "expert" book would be letting the nose of the camel into the tent. Pretty soon the rest of the camel would follow.
But to me it simply makes sense. If you make a "complete" beginner box product, those customers won't follow on to all the other products Paizo makes, most importantly the Adventure Paths. And selling adventure paths, from what I understand is how Paizo keeps its lights on. Perhaps I'm wrong.
As a GM who as used the PFBB to bring many new players into the hobby, and bringing relapsed players back to the fold, I completely understand the appeal of a continuation of the PFBB into levels 6-10 as an 'Expert Set" to supplement the level 1-5 rules.
Having read this and other threads on the forums since the PFBB set was released, I can assure you that many of the posters above are correct in their reasons WHY Paizo will not expand on the PFBB. Many developers, designers and marketing Paizo folk have given their reason, and it boils down to basically "it doesn't make business sense" to support a second rules line (or a "lighter version" of their rules).
Paizo folks have also made it very clear they don't feel threatened by D&D Next or worried about loosing existing PF players to the new D&D.
I personally already have a pre-order for that game, precisely so I can have a rules light fantasy game to complement my rules heavy PF game.
As for the OP, I understand you desire for a rules lighter PF game, but unfortunately its not going to happen. There are a LOT of other games out there that better fit your playing style and interest, and that is one of the good things of our RPG hobby.
Happy Gaming! :)
But to me it simply makes sense. If you make a "complete" beginner box product, those customers won't follow on to all the other products Paizo makes, most importantly the Adventure Paths. And selling adventure paths, from what I understand is how Paizo keeps its lights on. Perhaps I'm wrong.
One way to combat that is to ensure the "less crunchy" version of the game uses the same statblocks and enough of the rules for the APs to work with that as well. Simplify the underlying mechanics but maintain the same "interface" between rules and adventure products.
However, I certainly understand why Paizo wouldn't want to do that, either. My advice to anyone wanting to move on from the Beginner box but not to the full system is just to do what I do in most of my games nowadays - buy the full rules, and cut out the parts that slow your game down or make it overly complex (one day I really need to get it all down in a redistributable format...) The underlying d20 system is based around a single mechanic, and pretty much everything else is a legitimate target for removal or simplification.
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Hot on the heels of this discussion, WotC just announced the new version of D&D will include a freely downloadable PDF similar in concept to the old Rules Cyclopedia - a simpler base-level (but apparently complete) game with some of the complexity removed, but complete from levels 1 to 20 for the four core classes and which can be used to play published modules.
Maybe we can hope for something similar from Pathfinder now :)
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In all honesty, the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is what you want, anyways. If you want to keep playing a "Beginner Box style" of game, there is nothing about the CRB that prevents you from doing that. Just don't use any of the rules that aren't already found in the BB, and work through the list of feats and spells to weed out any items that don't work well within the confines of the BB parameters.
Truthfully, despite the criticism, the Strategy Guide will be a LOT like an Expert set, or Expert book. It's not going to include all the options that are in the CRB (not thick enough for starters, and won't have all the rules) from what I see, and should be easy enough to integrate with the BB, with a few new things that are introduced via the transitions booklet and the Strategy Guide itself.
Hence, seriously, despite going against it earlier in the thread, the Strategy Guide is probably what I'd suggest for ANYONE who wants to go the next step after the BB, but is scared away by the CRB.
Only, it's not quite out yet, but when it is...I'd say it's definitely that next step from what I've read about it.
Chief Technical Officer
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The Strategy Guide isn't a standalone product; it's intended for use with the Core Rulebook (or at least the PRD). So "Beginner Box + Strategy Guide" is not a complete thing.
That said, the Strategy Guide is indeed going to be very helpful for BB players ready to take their next step into a larger world. If you think of it as "a BB-inspired interface to the CRB", you shouldn't be too far off.