stutzj's page

For season PDFs, $1 per scenario seems like a pretty good deal for me, considering the going rate for base sets is up to $4 per scenario (depending on if/how you value the other cards in the AD). Furthermore, stores get the scenarios for free, giving you an incentive to go to one and play there. Consider that a scenario lasts at least an hour, so this is actually one of the cheaper ways to entertain yourself for a period of time. A softcover isn't going to happen, there simply isn't enough demand to offset printer costs, and Paizo seems reluctant to go for print on demand options for such items. In any event, $15 is way off mark for it, Campaign Setting is a similar size book with much more customer base and that goes for $23. The development costs of a CS book are likely higher due to lots of new art, but a fair amount of work goes into designing and play testing scenarios as well. Given the lower demand, and therefore lower printer run, I'd make an educated guess that it would sell for somewhere between $30 and $40 at the minimum. It'd come out months after the season ends; or 1 month at the best case scenario to correspond with when the AD6 scenarios are made available for purchase.

That makes sense. Good explanation. $40 would be a pretty difficult price to pull the trigger on for a 70 page book even though the pdf season runs $30. I actually printed a copy for personal use on Lulu for around 5 dollars. Looks great and does the job.

I really wish they would include written adventure set ups in base adventure paths similar to the Pathfinder Scenario versions. I like the user created adventure guides but the official "Season of" releases are better written (IMO) and are the perfect length.

I'm curious - apart from the polarizing mechanics, wouldn't you classify the setting of Wrath of the Righteous as classic medieval fantasy?

Sure, I would. And it's actually my second favorite set. But it doesn't capture that classic D&D rpg tropes such as a sense of exploration and adventure to far off lands with a small party of characters. It's very militaristic especially with the user created adventure guide and at least through deck 2(which I'm still at) feels like I'm in the game version of "Kingdom of Heaven". It does what it sets out to do and it does it well. I really like that set so far.

I think there is a huge player base that is playing this game because they are lapsed RPGs and they are pining for that nostalgic feeling of playing classic RPG campaign in a medieval fantasy world.

I love the game so I'll play it no matter what the game world even if the next campaign is teletubbies themed. :) "Teletubbies & Trolls".

I'm actually hoping for something which returns to a more classic medieval fantasy campaign. ROTRL is still my favorite thematically. What about a 'Shattered Star' AP? It could use many of the cards from ROTRL which could be interesting since it's tied pretty closely in world and locations, right? (actually haven't played the AP, just read the description). Maybe released only as a character deck and adventure deck expansions but uses most of the ROTRL base set since there are a huge amount of people who own it. Would definitely save on production cost since a HUGE base box would not need to be shipped with the game.

And I agree about the Seasons PDFs being a bit steep. Wish they could be released as a softcover since they are only about 60-70 pages total. Gives a lot of life a base set + expansions and it would seem a lot more attractive to invest in a AP knowing that you could get twice as many adventure by buying the book for $15 (or around that).

Cool ideas. You should check out Dungeon Bash by Other Game Company - it's written for 3.5 rules and would work very well with the beginner box. Has some pretty cool ideas in it, tons of charts for flavor, as well as handy monster AI charts.

Mythic GM emulator is really great too. I've even heard of people running a bunch of NPCs through a dungeon by asking questions like "does the fighter try to break the lock?". Your idea of assigning personalities to the characters would work well with this style of play.

Any word on whether this will play asynchronously? I would have a much higher chance of playing with my friends if that was the case.

As for the OP, I understand you desire for a rules lighter PF game, but unfortunately its not going to happen. There are a LOT of other games out there that better fit your playing style and interest, and that is one of the good things of our RPG hobby.

Happy Gaming! :)

Yep moving on...agree that there are other. The BB hit that sweet spot for me and I wanted to support Paizo since I really do like their work a whole lot. My initial post came less from "I want this! Make it happen!" and more from "you've created this amazing system that is near perfect, why not expand it slightly in order to open up all your products for those who want a lighter system?" I think I was more confused as to why that wasn't happening already. The forum debate/adveserial process helped to get a better sense of why that won't happen whether I agree with it or not.

Oh well. Already playing with the D&D Next playtest rules and am enjoying the flexibility of the system to play the kind of game that I like. I'll probably give Pathfinder core rules another try if D&D next is a total bust but I have liked what I have seen so far.

Giving up the ghost on the expanded Beginner Box/'Expert' Box. I kept visiting the forums ever since the BB was released, hoping for an announcement of some kind for BB rules expansion but I think I'll stop. They have been clear about their view on expanding the beginner box. I really wanted to make the Beginner Box my core rules for my group but it just ain't going to happen with official support. I respect Paizo as a company so no love lost, just disappointed. I think the PF Core rules are well designed but I think it just isn't for me and my group. I gave it a shot and I love the production quality of the core rules - such a beautiful book.

I think I'm going to to move on D&D Next since it does seem like their is much more flexibility in the system...

I imagine Paizo will lose some customers/potential customers with my system preferences but they probably will gain some who are looking for that solid 3.5/3.75 experience that they might not get from D&D Next.

I would still love if there was fan made expansion. Maybe I'll give PF core another chance if D&D next isn't what I hope it to be.

I vote for including a 14 - 25 page document similar to BB 'Transitions/GM kit' that expands the Beginner Box core classes up to level 10 adding 4 pages of new spells and several pages of new feats and skills. If Paizo did this, IMO this product would appeal to BOTH the core PF crowd and those who want more rules for the Beginner Box and are interested in using that as their main rule set. It would be the perfect 'intermediate' product without creating a separate Beginner Pathfinder line of products.

@OberonViking

Thanks a lot for the link. Good resources. I think my plan is to use his stuff and convert levels 7-10 on my own. Combine everything he has, my new stuff, the Transitions, Beginner Box Player Pack, GM kit, the 4 BBB demos all into one big PDF and then print it for myself. I think that will be 'something' like a 'Expert' supplement. If I do come up with my own stuff (levels 7-10), I'll to get in a pdf and release under the Community Use Policy or something.

@ Changing Man

I am hardly a writer so I don't I'll be doing the kickstarter anytime soon. But it did get me thinking about putting together a very informal unofficial 'expert' document using the SRD. Maybe it could even be a community project that could be work on via Google Docs. Hmmm I may have to start some kind of thread. Of course I would prefer having a beautiful official softcover but at having a document to at least use and play with could be awesome. Excellent suggestion. Does anyone know if Paizo would be cool with this as long as (of course) it isn't used for any kind of commercial purpose? Is that what the Community Use Policy is? I'll have to google that I suppose.

@Orthos Thanks for the link there. Looks great. I will check it out.

@Unruly - I can see how you view my request similar to what TSR did. I also think that your being a bit too simplistic in your judgment that by releasing a 'Expert' supplement would be the same thing that TSR did and would be bad business. According to your criteria, I would argue that Paizo is already doing what TSR did and that doesn't need to be a bad thing. I mean there is a entirely separate category on the Paizo website for "Pathfinder Beginner Box". So they have in effect(appears to be according the website) created a separate rule system in which to play in the Pathfinder world even if the intent was to create a gateway game.

But their is a good way to do what TSR and their is a bad way to do it.

This is the bad way:

1001 D&D 2nd edition, Basic Set
1981
2014 D&D 3rd edition, Basic Set
2015 D&D 3rd edition, Expert Set
1983
1011 D&D 4th edition, Basic Rules
1012 D&D 4th edition, Expert Rules
1984
1013 D&D 4th edition, Companion Rules
1985
1021 D&D 4th edition, Master Rules
1986
1017 D&D 4th edition, Immortals Rules
1989
1037 Dawn of the Emperors: Thyatis and Alphatia
1990
1054 Hollow World Campaign Setting
1991
1070 D&D 5th edition
1071 D&D 5th edition Rules Cyclopedia
1992
1073 The Dragon's Den adventure pack
1076 |The Goblin's Lair adventure pack
1082 Wrath of the Immortals
1993
1094 Champions of Mystara: Heroes of the Princess Ark Campaign Expansion
1994
1106 D&D 6th edition

Accessories and Adventures

1976
1002/9004 Dungeon Geomorphs, Set 1: Basic Dungeon
DM Design Kit #1 - Palace of the Vampire Queen
1977
9005 Dungeon Geomorphs, Set 2: Caves & Caverns
9006 Dungeon Geomorphs, Set 3: Lower Dungeons
Outdoor Geomorphs, Set 1: Walled City
Monster & Treasure Assortment, Set 1: Dungeon Levels 1-3
Monster & Treasure Assortment, Set 2: Dungeon Levels 4-6
Character Record Sheets (pad)
1978
Monster & Treasure Assortment, Set 3: 7-9
1980
Monster & Treasure Assorment, Sets 1-3: Levels 1-9
Basic Character Records Sheets (booklet)
1981
9048 Dungeon Geomorphs, Set 1-3

1979
9023 B1 Insearch of the Unknown (revised 1981)
1981
9034 B2 The Keep on the Borderlands
9044 B3 Palace of the Silver Princess
9043 X1 The Isle of Dread (revised 1983)
9051 X2 Castle Amber
1982
9049 B4 The Lost City
9056 X3 Curse of Xanathon
1983
9100 AC1 Shady Dragon Inn
9078 B5 Horror on the Hill
9067 M1 Solo Blizzard Pass
9060 M2 Solo Maze of the Riddling Minotaurs
9050 O1 The Gem and the Staff
6064 RPGA1 Rahasia (same as B7?)
6065 RPGA2 The Black Opal Eye
9068 X4 Master of the Desert Nomads
9069 X5 Temple of Death
1984
9099 AC2 D&D Combat Shield/The Treasure of the HideousOne
9121 AC3 Dragon Tiles 1/The Kindapping of Princess Arelina
9086 B6 The Veiled Society
9115 B7 Rahasia
9106 B8 Journey to the Rock
9143 B9 Castle Caldwell and Beyond
9097 B-SOLO Ghost of Lion Castle
9117 CM1 Test of the Warlords
9118 CM2 Death's Ride
9119 CM3 Sabre River
9108 O2 Blade of Vengeance
9081 X6 Quagmire
9079 X7 War Rafts of Kron
9127 X8 Drums on Fire Mountain
9114 XL1 Quest for the Heartstone
9082 XSolo1 Lathan's Gold
1985
9116 AC4 The Book of Marvelous Magic
9145 AC5 Dragon Tiles 2/The Revenge of Rusak
9037 AC6 Player Character Sheets
9156 AC7 Master Player Screen/The Spindle
9128 CM4 Earthshaker
9154 CM5 Myster of the Snow Pearls
9158 CM6 Where Chaos Reigns
9159 M1 Into the Maelstrom
9129 X9 The Savage Coast
9160 X10 Red Arrow, Black Shield
9157 XSolo2 Thunderdelve Mountain
1986
9173 AC9 Creature Catalogue
9149 B10 Night's Dark Terror
9166 CM7 The Tree of Life
9172 DA1 Adventures in Blackmoor
9175 DA2 Temple fo the Frog
9171 IM1 The Immortal Storm
9148 M2 Vengeance of Alphaks
9174 M3 Twilight Calling
9165 X11 Saga of the Shadowlord
1987
9211 AC10 Bestiary of Dragons and Giants
9190 B1-9 In Search of Adventure
9192 CM8 The Endless Stair
9210 CM9 Legacy of Blood
9191 DA3 City of the Gods
9205 DA4 Duch of Tenh
9193 GAZ1 The Grand Duchy of Karameikos
9194 GAZ2 The Emirates of Ylaruam
9208 GZA3 The Principalities of Glantri
9215 GAZ4 The Kingdom of Ierendi
9189 IM2 The Wrath of Olympus
9207 IM3 The Best of Intentions
9204 M4 Five Coins for a Kingdom
9214 M5 Talons of Night
9188 X12 Skarda's Mirror
9218 X13 Crown of Ancient Glory
9220 AC11 The Book of Wondrous Inventions
1988
9223 GAZ5 The Elves of Alfheim
9227 GZA6 The Dwarves of Rockhome
9230 GAZ7 The Northern Reaches
9232 GAZ8 The Five Shires
9236 GZA9 The Minrothad Guilds
9241 GZA10 The Orcs of Thar
1989
9260 B11 King's Festival
9261 B12 Queen's Harvest
9250 GAZ11 The Republic of Darokin
9246 GZA12 The Golden Khan of Ethengar
9254 PC1 Creature Crucible: Tall Tales of the Wee Folk
9255 PC2 Creature Crucible: Top Ballista
1990
9284 DDA1 Arena of Thyatis
9296 DDA2 Legions of Thyatis
9287 GZA13 The Shadow Elves
9303 HWA1 Nightwail
9310 HWA2 Nightrage
9277 PC3 Creature Crucible: The Sea People
1991
9271 DDA3 Eye of Traldar
9272 DDA4 The Dymrak Dead
9308 DDREF1 D&D Character Records Sheets
9306 GAZ14 The Atruagghin Clans
9311 HWA3 Nightstorm
9332 HWR1 Sons of Azca
9339 HWR2 Kingdom of Nithia
1992
9342 Entry 1 Quest for the Silver Sword
9350 Entry 2 Assault on Raven's Ruin
9357 Entry 3 Thunder Rift
9387 Entry 4 Sword & Shield
9363 Entry 5 Character & Monster Assortment
9378 HWQ1 The Milenian Scepter
9384 HWR3 The Milenian Empire
9259 The Jade Hare
9368 PC4 Creature Crucible: Night Howlers
1993
9437 DMR1 DM Screen Escape from Thunder Rift
9438 DMR2 Creature Catalogue
9434 Entry 6 The Knight of Newts
9435 Entry 7 Rage of the Rakasta
9436 Entry 8 In the Phantom's Wake

I'm not suggesting Paizo start a separate line and start releasing products only for that line. God no, they release enough products as it is and what TSR did with the basic line is just EXCESSIVE.

If TSR had stopped at just the B/X rulebook and not released anything else for that, they probably would not have a problem dividing their customer base. Every single D&D module released through 1989 could have worked for both systems (even beyond until 3rd IMO).

All I am suggesting is for Paizo to fill in the gaps in their rule system so it appeals to the largest amount of players. "Expert" supplement would do this nicely. I do think that there is a gap between BB into Core Rules. It's a significant enough of gap for players/dms like me. I think releasing ONE product would go along way for providing a long term system for those like me. Yes, levels 1-10 are somewhat a personal preference. But I think it allows for much longer campaigns and again would go a long way to feeling like a more complete system. I'm sorry but I think levels 1-5 don't.

Imagine that there are 100 D&D players. 40 like WOTC D&D, 40 like Pathfinder and 20 don't really have fun playing with complex rules, it just isn't their thing. 10 of those players go to OSR games and 10 feel sort of left out because they would love to have pretty/well produced RPGs to play with but who don't have that much fun with 576 page rule book. Why not provide a system for those 10 gamers that allows them to buy into your product line. Paizo's pathfinder line does not need to be divided. All modules, flip mats, products other than their rules systems could easily be shared even if they are officially released for Pathfinder Core.

I seriously think Paizo would attract more players overall if they provided a little more flexibility in their rules product line. I guarantee more players would be interested.

So this is what I suggest in my Paizo dream world where I am the CEO and am trying to achieve world domination:

1. Release one more supplement for the BB to make the system more complete and draw longer term players who would otherwise not continue on to Core Rules so they can buy into my product line.

2. Include the transition guide in the back of the 'Expert' supplement.

No other products. No TSR 80's excess.

@Unruly - I get what you're saying about it not being the best model for business. I really don't think I'm suggesting they do what TSR did. I think there is a potential customer base who would like a supplement for a bit higher levels for the Beginner Box and I think that customer base is not from the existing Pathfinder Core Players or potential Pathfinder Core Players. Like I said. people who like complex rules will play with a complex system, and those who like lighter rules will play with something lighter. Little changes that.

I know I can't expect much more than the Beginner Box. It seems fairly clear that Paizo is against that. I do think that they should be more open to it. I mean it would just be COOL to have an extra supplement. I'd like it - that's why I started this thread. I do also happen to think that they would attract some new customers without dividing their base. I suggested a supplement and not a "Expert Box" because I do get that they don't want to split their audience.

Beginner Box is not a Retroclone or a OSR game. That's not what I want - it is a different game. I like that it uses miniatures, I like skills and feats without a overcomplexity and I love the style and art. There is a perfect balance of new and old in this product. I don't think there is another system on the market like it. If there is, let me know. I would be happy to throw my money at whatever company does something like this as well. Shame Paizo won't get my money though in that situation...*cough* missed opportunity.

If Paizo's intention was not create another game they should have probably released a different kind of product (levels 1-2, a simple adventure kit that clearly points the way to the Core Rules). The Beginner Box really does feel like a complete system (its fun to play and it works really well. In fact it works better for my group than Pathfinder Core does) and IMO a 100 page supplement for levels 6-10 would make it MORE of a complete system that honestly I would be very satisfied with. I don't think other supplements for higher levels would be necessary. But as it is, levels 1-5 does not work for long term play.

Yes of course I can buy a Core Rulebook and try to convert stuff but that requires A) Effort and B) it's not as user friendly especially for my players. I'd rather just show them a page from a book.

What you're saying is valid and thanks for explaining your thoughts clearly and well.

Has the Beginner Box split the customer base already? That seems like the single product that would have done that already. I guess I just don't see adding 5 more levels for a more of complete game would be that significant of a reason to split the customer base. I'm arguing, just make it a bit more complete. If it sells well...great, Paizo doesn't need to continue releasing products for it, they are after all the puppet masters :). Levels 1-10 with the expert supplement would probably still act well as a gateway game plus you would be be bring more customers like me in to buy PF products. A half complete game kind of sucks.

TSR did it badly. Paizo doesn't need to. I don't think they need to be afraid.

@Rynjin negligible less content? Let's, see Core rules weighs in at 576 pages. Taking out the monster sections, adventure, Sandpoint guide from the GM guide and combining with the Hero Guide you are looking at around 120 pages for the Basic rules. Subtract extra monsters and extra adventure from the hypothetical Expert guide and you are looking at approx 65 more pages for a grand total of 185 pages tops of actual playing rules. That IS a lot let content and far more digestible for someone not interested in the complexity of full on Pathfinder.

@Steve Geddes- maybe it would be an undertaking (I would argue not as difficult as you suggest) but I think it is a very worthy undertaking.

@Unruly I'm not suggesting a separate Basic line. I am just asking Paizo to finish their rule set with a single supplement around 100 pages. I think there would be many people who would be happy with this and buy into existing products from the Pathfinder line(APs, Inner Sea Guide, Flip Mats etc) since the BB/EX would be more usable and complete game.

Paizo has already established that they are not interested in supporting a BB line. At this point, I doubt releasing one more product around 100 pages for a more complete rule set would divide your customer base.

Overall, Paizo would be appealing to a more diverse group of gamers. With the release of D&D Next soon, this is a smart business move.

I don't think you need to view it as splitting the customer base. What I am suggesting is a single supplement(100 page softcover, converting what basically already exists to a simpler form) which essentially could be the only product added to the BB line to complete what the Beginner Box started. Levels 1-10 would feel like a complete game. I think making a 100 page supplement book would not be a huge cost to their resources/workforce. Essentially when you are probably recycling a lot of art and simplifying existing rules. If this is is the only additional product they produce, I think Paizo will attract a larger customer base interested in lighter rules who otherwise would not buy into the full on Pathfinder experience. I know that is the case with me. Gamers like what they like. Some people like more hardcore game and they will play that (full on Pathfinder, while others like lighter games. Little changes that. The gamers who like lighter rules, I think for the most part are staying away from the full on Pathfinder rules. IMO, adding this Expert softcover could solidify and maintain those of us who love the BB as long term customers.

B/X Beginner box would be my game of choice to run. Period. I really do think its that good. I then could potentially buy other products that I could use for my game like the Inner Sea Guide, NPC face cards, Item cards, flip maps, etc. I have not and probably will not buy any of these products if the BB wasn't my game of choice.

Plus, as I mentioned in my initial post, IMO it would be to Paizo's advantage to offer a more complete lighter rule system option to compete with the flexibility of D&D Next when it comes out next year. I am a hardcore D&D guy and based on the test packets I've played with BB offers a more classic D&D experience than D&D Next will.

To a certain extent I can see the concern about creating separate adventures. Maybe the a conversion guide (similar to what's in the GM kit) should be included into this next supplement. Speaking for myself, I definitely have no problem adapting adventures to the BB. It would feel far less unsatisfied by having no BB adventures and a complete system rather than have an incomplete system and no adventures. Maybe the solution is to just further market that released adventures are fully compatible and easily adaptable if that is a concern.

This might interest you:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/109821/Ruins-of-the-Undercity?term=ruins+of+t he+unde

Its got a cool setting and would be easily adaptable to PFBB.

And of course there is always the Mythic GM Emulator which I imagine would be a great creativity builder for kids as well:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/20798/Mythic-Game-Master-Emulator?it=1

I haven't. I can see how this would help newer players into the core line and seems to be a good idea. I'm not interested playing with the core rules and it seems to be a bit different from what I detailed above. I do think that there is a significant number of RPers who are interested in Pathfinder but want something a little bit more rules light/user friendly and the Beginner Box rules is perfect in that regard.

Dear Paizo

The Beginner Box is brilliant. So, thank you for making this product. Its great for those of us who like the new and the old school all combined in a easy to use package. While I know the purpose of this product was to act as a gateway game to the real deal of Pathfinder Core, I must say, that having played both, I prefer the 'less is more' approach of the Beginner Box. Which isn't to say that I play the right way and everyone else is wrong (god no! please play the way that is fun for you, everyone!)- I certainly can see why people like the core rule - it's just too much game for my style of play. Now I know that this has been discussed and you all are very clear on your stance regarding a 'Expert Box'/continuation of the Beginner Box line, but I think you all should reconsider.

Hear me out.

I don't think you need a 'Expert BOX'. Its not necessary. I imagine you all are not making a huge profit on the 'Beginner Box' since there is so much bang for your buck and its a steal at 39.99 (again, part of the gateway game strategy). No I think you should release a soft cover that will fit snugly into the Beginner Box maybe around 96-100 pages in length, similar to the Gamemasters Guide. Sell it for $15-20. I GUARANTEE you that it would sell well. It would appeal to and be enthusiastically received by a group of gamers like me that love the Beginner Box but are unlikely to invest in the multivolumes necessary for the full on Pathfinder experience.

Plus, D&D Next is coming and you probably will have competition because of the flexibility of the system to appeal to both more rules heavy players and players who enjoy less rules like me. This could be your way to compete with them in that area. I know that I would choose your system over D&D Next. You will keep those of us excited by the Beginner Box style of play and Pathfinder but who are not committing to the larger chain of products and keep us from investing in D&D Next. This probably applies the most to the OSR crowd which I would argue is probably a large potential purchasing base that would be interested in buying this product because it mirrors the Basic/Expert products of yore that so many of them pine for.

Here is what you could put in it:

6-10th level rules for existing classes.
Several new classes (by no means limited to what I suggest and covering 1-10th level):
Druid
Ranger
Paladin
Bard
One new race:
Halfing

Select spells (similar to the amount for the first three levels in the BB) for the new classes and spells up to characters of 10th level.

I'm guessing for all the races, new classes, and 6-10 rules, spells you are looking at about 30-35 pages(3 pages for new non casting characters, 1 new page for Rogue/Fighter, 4 new pages of spells for Cleric and Wizard, 8-10 pages for Druid. 1 page for Halfings (you could even add another race here since race options only take up a half of a page in the Hero's Handbook)

10 pages for new Feats and Skills.

2 new pages for harder traps.

6 pages for new magic items

26 pages for new monsters including 3 pages of updated random encounter tables for high levels(same as Gamemaster Guide in BB)

4-6pages detailing a slightly larger world outside of Sandpoint. Like a VERY condensed version of the Inner Sea World Guide - just enough to get your imagination going.

14 page expert level adventure.

2-4pages of new rules/combat options/extended travel rules.

2 pages miscellaneous pages (preface, epilogue)

For a grand total of 98-100 pages.

No need to include new pawns. Just use monsters from the 'Bestiary Box' (hey, I'll buy that now since I actually need it). Use an already published flip map so again people will probably want to buy it or if they are cheap they can just use the blank map from the BB.

I would so buy this and you would make me, and I imagine, a good number of other people like me happy and keep us using the Basic/Expert Pathfinder for years to come. It really would be my game of choice.

Just my 2 cents.