I’m in the middle of reading Bernard Cromwell’s Warlord Chronicles trilogy, and my current play by posts have slowed down. So I dug out my old Pendragon material that I’ve never used, and I’m thinking of running this campaign. Since the setting and game mechanics are A significant departure from standard Pathfinder, I would like to get feedback before I start recruiting. Please consider this post an interest check.
The year is 495. On May 22, King Uther Pendragon, strapped to his horse, led his army of Logres to defeat the Saxons at the Battle of St. Albans but died of poison immediately afterwards. Without an heir the land falls into civil war.
Player characters (PCs) begin as young squires between 17 to 19 years of age, which plan to soon be knighted by their lord Robert, Earl of Salisbury. This knighting ceremony is several years early from the traditional requirement of 20 years of age due to the recent losses of knights. The PCs were squires at the battle of St. Albans responsible for their knight’s weapons, armor, horse, and funeral. They all have inherited one of the Salisbury manors from their deceased father, brother, uncle, or cousin who died from their battle wounds.
Campaign setting
The Feudal World
The Social Classes
The Christian Church
Norms of society
The Customs of Society
The Customs of the Family
The Customs of Knighthood
Player Maps
Player map of Britain
Another player map of Britain
Player map of Logres
Player map of County of Salisbury
Player map of travel times
Maps of World
Regions of Britain
the North
Brittany
France and Gaul
Ireland
Recent History
495 – Current year
493 – Octa and Eosa, the Saxon Kings, escape prison and begin a rebellion. Uther is taken ill and cannot leave bed.
492 – Cornwall is conquered by Uther. King Uther marries Igraine.
491 – Duke Gorlois of Conrwall rebels against King Uther, and a new civil war begins.
490 – Kings Octa and Eosa, with more Saxons, land in Britain to help their kinsmen but are defeated in battle and captured.
488 – King Uther wars against the Franks on the continent
486 – King Clovis of the Franks conquers Soissons, the last Roman province in the west.
485 – New Saxons from the continent seize Essex
484 – Saxons besiege Eburacum. Uther is defeated in battle, but at Mt. Damen he attacks at night and wins.
483 – High King Aillill of Ireland is killed.
480 - Menevia is seized by Irish who are led by King Guillomaur and Saxons who are led by Pascent, the son of Vortigern. Aurelius Ambrosius is poisoned and dies. His brother, Uther Pendragon, leads the army, defeats the invaders, and is crowned king.
478 – A British fleet, led by Aurelius Ambrosius, attacks the Frisians on the continent, establishing peace for a time.
477 – King Aelle, with more Saxons from the continent, lands and seizes Sussex.
To be clear, we are using Pathfinder rules with the following changes.
AVAILABLE CLASSES
PCs must begin with martial weapon proficiency and medium armor proficiency limiting the starting classes to the following: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Cavalier and Magus. After 1st level, you can build your characters as you want. However, see the Changes to the Game Mechanics section before you finalize your character concept.
ONLY HUMAN
PCs must be human.
ABILITY SCORES
PCs can place the following six scores how they want: 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, and 10
TRAITS
PCs can take two traits. Besides Paizo-published traits, PCs can create their own trait with the game mechanic benefit of making a skill a class skill with a +1 trait bonus. PCs can take a third trait if they also take a Paizo-published drawback.
SKILLS
PCs will be knights, i.e. mounted warriors, so pay attention to Ride and Handle Animal. Knights are nobles who hunt and attend courts, so pay attention to Survival, Diplomacy, and Knowledge (nobility). Knights like most everyone except Christian clergy start illiterate and can learn to read with a skill rank in Linguistics.
ALIGNMENT
PCs must not be Evil. Alignment is your commitment of how you plan to role-play the character. Being Lawful consistently conforms to the norms of society. Being Good consistently behaves mercifully, generously, and charitably. Chivalry is currently not popular, but it will be popular within a generation.
STARTING EQUIPMENT
PCs begin with the following: hide armor with gauntlets, a lance, a shield, a longsword, a dagger, a courtier’s outfit, a combat-trained light horse, a common riding kit, and their starting class kit.
RECRUITMENT SUBMISSION
When you create a submission, please create a character avatar and include your character information in the form of a bestiary stat block like Karrick's profile. Notice the game mechanics are not in spoilers. Also, include the following information in your profile which can be behind spoilers:
- Appearance
- Personality
- Background Please select a Player’s manor on the County of Salisbury map
Please find some changes in the standard Pathfinder game mechanics to reflect that this is a low magic and low technology campaign.
MAGIC
- No magic items are available for purchase.
- No magic item creation feats are allowed.
- No Conjuration spells function.
- No Evocation spells function.
EQUIPMENT
- No alchemical items are available.
- No heavy armors are available, yet.
- Obviously, no firearms.
- The following weapons are available: any axe, any bow, any mace, any spear, dagger, gauntlets, javelin, light crossbow, lance, longsword, and shortsword.
- Other weapons and armor will be available in later years.
We are also using the following variant rules.
Wounds and Vigor
Hero Points
- I’m looking for 4 to 6 player characters
- Recruitment deadline depends on quantity and quality of submissions
- I’ll give at least 48 hours notice before closing recruitment
- Posting expectation is at least once per 48 hours
I'm definitely interested. I love low/no magic historical campaigns. I am assuming PCs would all be required to be British?
I am so in!
I love me some Pendragon. How much do you see the Pathfinder/d20 feel dominating the Arthurian feel?
Submission to come.
Oooohhhoooooohooooo, yes.
I am assuming PCs would all be required to be British?
Yes, the PCs inherit from a knight in the county of Salisbury.
How much do you see the Pathfinder/d20 feel dominating the Arthurian feel?
I don't know. I was going to use the Fame and Reputation rules but didn't like them enough. Instead, I was going to use Experience as a proxy for Pendragon's Glory mechanic, and Chivalric behavior as Lawful Good.
Submission to come.
Thanks for the interest. I'm not ready to formally open recruitment, because I'm looking for detailed feedback on the game mechanics.
cheers
Definitely an intriguing proposition. I loved Cornwell's trilogy. I'll see what I can put together.
Oh, I'd totally be down for this. I, too, love low-to-no magic games, and this sounds awesome. I'll probably start rolling around ideas (in fact, I already am!).
Submission to come.
Thanks for the interest. I'm not ready to formally open recruitment, because I'm looking for detailed feedback on the game mechanics.
Fair enough. I think you might want to reconsider allowing the magus. I don't think it fits the Arthurian theme. I like the Wound/Vigor and Hero Point systems for the theme.
I think you may want to consider the E6 system (a Pathfinder variant). High level play isn't right for Pendragon.
I also think that the Armor as DR variant rule fits well into these sorts of things.
I'll warn that I've heard combining Wounds and Vigor with Armor as DR creates some sort of problem, but I can't recall what that problem was, so take it with a grain of salt. I do second E6 and reconsidering the magus, however.
Holy crap, I love you Jubal. Not even close to done reading yet, but I only needed the first two paragraphs cream my pants. I'll post something more substantive after reading the rest of the info.
I ran a Saxon game a while back set in basically the same time period (a little later), we used armor as DR and I've used it in several other games. It's not good. In the context of E6/no magic weapons, it makes people with heavy armor nearly invincible. It also pressures everyone into a high str power attack build as everything's AC is going to suck no matter what, and it's all about getting through the DR. It also screws over archery.
I would third getting rid of magus, they would be burnt at the stake or hung for witchcraft. It's not clear whether you intend all classes to be available from level 2 (ie. rogue, brawler or something similar), but I think it would be a good idea to open up all non spellcasting, non-asian themed classes after level 1.
As is, the paladin is going to be the only source of magical healing. I would consider limiting paladins and rangers to one of the spellless archetypes. Then come up with some alternate system of healing than magic. I've used a healing surge system in the past, similar to DnD 4e. Basically it was this:
Healing Surge (Ex):Beginning at 1st level, you can heal wounds. Each day you can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 your level plus your Constitution modifier. With one use of this ability, you can heal 1d6 points of vigor for every two levels you possess. By expending two uses and taking a full round action you can heal 1 wound. Using this ability is a swift action.
It works well for no magic games. Unless you want combat to be extremely deadly. Which would also be interesting.
I'd imagine armor as DR plus wounds and vigor would mean that combat, especially with many combatants would drag. Plus, the magus seems like it'd be quite severely hamstrung by the removal of evocation anyway, since spellstrike is kind of pointless and like half their spells are evocation.
I'd imagine armor as DR plus wounds and vigor would mean that combat, especially with many combatants would drag. Plus, the magus seems like it'd be quite severely hamstrung by the removal of evocation anyway, since spellstrike is kind of pointless and like half their spells are evocation.
Exactly! Unless everyone is a high strength greatsword wielder, but then that's unrealistic and boring.
I'm kind of curious about the translation to Pathfinder. A large part of Pendragon is the system of passions and virtues (I think they're called that, I've never played) so I wonder how such a central part of the game is going to be handled since there is no such mechanic in Pathfinder.
Great guys! I'm glad you're as excited as I am about this. Greatly appreciate the detailed feedback. This is what I've heard:
- No Magus
- E6? Are those rules online? I'm not familiar
- No armor as DR. Yes, I considered it and came to the same conclusion
- Limit spell-casting classes? I was thinking of letting players do what they want, but they are still knights and will be required to fight like that. I figured players would self-select, no?
- I removed Evocation and Conjuration spells, so what's left is the subtle stuff
- How should account the reactions of spell-users? Please draft suggestions
- The only healing that I was thinking of leaving was lay on hands and channeling. Should I remove those, too?
- Notice that greatswords are not available, right?
Please keep the comments coming
cheers
E6 is here. The concept is that you don't rise above level six ever. Instead, you gain a feat for every 5000xp you gain after that. Taht number should probably vary depending on whether you use medium/fast/slow xp, and should be a little higher(+33%) for fast track.
Edit: An interesting thought I've had, and one that seems to work since you've banned healing.
Armor as damage conversion: armor does not provide a bonus to armor class. Instead, whenever you take damage, it converts a number of damage equal to (armor bonus? Half armor bonus?)into nonlethal damage.
The obvious problem is that magical healing cures all nonlethal damage, but you've gotten rid of that. This makes combat as short as normally, but it also makes it a lot less likely to kill you.
Well is it supposed to be real Earth, or a slightly fantasy earth?
Thing about E6 is it was designed with the assumption that a fighter at high levels could take a cannonball to the chest and get up or a wizard could snap his fingers and a village would be destroyed by falling meteors. With the wounds and vigor system and the absence of conjuration and evocation those are both largely ameliorated.
I'm luke warm about E6. The campaign will age faster than level. I plan to cover 80 years. I foresee these first characters as aging out before they hit super high levels.
Need to focus on the magic elements of the game.
I'm offline for the next 12 hours. I look forward to your comments.
cheers
I think E6 could be interesting; it keeps things pretty low-powered, ensures you don't have people running around with a ton of hp and such, things of that nature. With less magic in the game, though, I'm not sure how important it would become. Mainly it's used to keep spellcasters from breaking the game and things like that.
If we do want to use E6, might I put forward this collection of E6 options? It's got a bunch of classes with customization options, and although it's 3.5, it'd be pretty easy to convert it to Pathfinder. Of course, these are a lot more front-loaded than normal classes, since it's cramming a lot of cool stuff into 6 levels instead of 20, but they're interesting and I've used them a couple times before.
On the subject of healing: I put out that for a game like this, we may want to use something like the Reserve Point system, which basically gives a pool of additional hp that you can use when you're resting. I'd say we should only allow it for Vigor if we want to be realistic, since taking a nap doesn't make your open wound close up.
As for Lay on Hands and Channeling, I think those would work fine, but I'd personally restrict Lay on Hands to Wounds damage (think of it as the "healer's hands," working quickly with needle and thread or herbs or such to close wounds and soothe pain) and Channel Energy to Vigor (think a rallying shout that renews your ally's energy, gets them pumped for battle, that sort of thing).
All just thoughts on my part.
The problem with low-healing is that encounters have to be short or there has to be an option to leave and recover by resting. Your average rpg dungeon is designed with the assumption that if the players get wounded that's not necessarily the end of the line since they can down some potions or cast some spells and be ready to fight again. Without magical healing a three-story dungeon with two encounters a floor could take weeks.
The problem with low-healing is that encounters have to be short or there has to be an option to leave and recover by resting. Your average rpg dungeon is designed with the assumption that if the players get wounded that's not necessarily the end of the line since they can down some potions or cast some spells and be ready to fight again. Without magical healing a three-story dungeon with two encounters a floor could take weeks.
Although I get the impression that this won't be a campaign with a lot of dungeon delves . . . :=)
To be clear, we are using Pathfinder rules with the following changes.
CLASSES
PCs will be knights and must begin with martial weapon proficiency and medium armor proficiency limiting the starting classes to the following: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Cavalier and Magus who takes the medium armor proficiency feat. When directed by their lord, they will be obligated to fight from horseback with a shield and at least medium armor.
After 1st level, you can build your characters as you want. However, see the Changes to the Game Mechanics section before you finalize your character concept.
Please find some changes in the standard Pathfinder game mechanics to reflect that this is a low magic and low technology campaign.
CLASSES
MAGIC
- No magic items are available for purchase.
- No magic item creation feats are allowed.
- No Conjuration spells function.
- No Evocation spells function.
- Positive Channeling and Lay on Hands can only cure Vigor
Obviously, I appreciate feedback before we finalize the campaign rules and open recruitment.
cheers
I repeat my question, is this supposed to be real Earth, or mythical fantasy Earth?
I'd prefer the game with no magic at all honestly.
Paladins don't really have an equivalent in 5th century Britain. The closest real-world thing would be like a knight templar or something from later in the Middle Ages during the Crusades. But the entire class is based around magical powers granted by a deity. A real world holy warrior could just as easily be a cavalier or fighter. I would remove paladin from the list of available classes.
Rangers get spells after 4th level, so I'd require that everyone who goes ranger either takes the Skirmisher or Trapper archetype to remove that problem.
I would add a variant of the bard class:
The Warrior-Poet (alternate bard)
BAB/HD: as Fighter
Skills: Remove Spellcraft
Class Features:
Remove cantrips, spellcasting and spells
Add a combat bonus feat at levels 4th, 13th and 16th
Ninjad.
I think those proposed rules would actually work alright. If you get seriously wounded you're still going to be out of action for a while, but if there are clerics or paladins around they can get you back on your feet after an exhausting fight with a little divine inspiration.
I'd also consider removing alignment completely from the game, along with any mechanics based around it. There is no empirically detectable "good" or "evil" in the real world. It would also allow for interesting class combinations with no alignment restrictions.
Perhaps the honor system would be a good fit for this game.
Monk, also seems fairly out of place.
I like the changes alright, and it allows for characters to dabble in other fields if they wish. It'll be interesting to see the mixture of Pagan belief and Christianity that we'll likely see in-game if characters diversify (I imagine we'll have at least one Paladin, and probably someone will check out an arcane casting class and end up going Pagan). As for myself, I'll likely steer clear of casting.
Removing clear alignments is an interesting option, although at the same time it'd be neat to keep them in and just have them be not such a big deal. Lawful Good becomes more of a philosophy and outlook on life than some cosmic label.
I agree with the class restrictions, and I'm hesitant to say that Monk should be removed. The flavor doesn't really fit well, no, but without that there's really no way to make a guy that punches really hard. Of course, that's historically a terrible tactic, but then, this is based on a pseudo-legendary setting. Maybe it'd be neat to have a knight who can use lance and shield, but who also hits really hard.
I like the changes alright, and it allows for characters to dabble in other fields if they wish. It'll be interesting to see the mixture of Pagan belief and Christianity that we'll likely see in-game if characters diversify (I imagine we'll have at least one Paladin, and probably someone will check out an arcane casting class and end up going Pagan). As for myself, I'll likely steer clear of casting.
Removing clear alignments is an interesting option, although at the same time it'd be neat to keep them in and just have them be not such a big deal. Lawful Good becomes more of a philosophy and outlook on life than some cosmic label.
I agree with the class restrictions, and I'm hesitant to say that Monk should be removed. The flavor doesn't really fit well, no, but without that there's really no way to make a guy that punches really hard. Of course, that's historically a terrible tactic, but then, this is based on a pseudo-legendary setting. Maybe it'd be neat to have a knight who can use lance and shield, but who also hits really hard.
The problem with leaving alignment in place is the mechanics, detect spells, smiting, protection from X, etc. The whole system posits planes dedicated to absolutes and beings populating them representing those absolutes. Not to mention it would lead to the politically dubious waters of naming either Christianity or Paganism as "good" or "evil" which is pretty meh to me.
Monk is very fantastical with all the ki, leaping sixty feet etc. Brawler or a fighter with the unarmed fighter archetype can pull it off acceptably without all the eastern mysticism.
I ran a Saxon game a while back set in basically the same time period (a little later), we used armor as DR and I've used it in several other games. It's not good.
Yeah, I played in that (I was Odalric. I actually was rereading through it the other day before I saw this). I liked the armor as DR during that but I see your point. I suppose we just didn't get far enough for its flaws to show.
I agree that the monk feels out of place. I'm not all into the wuxia stuff personally.
I'm also pro-no alignment.
Will paganism be limited to arcane spellcasters, or can non-spellcasters still uphold paganism?
Yeah, I remember Odalric :) I'm basing most of my commentary on armor as DR on another game that went from like level 1-8 IRL. Around level 4 or 5 we switched back to normal AC rules as it was just ruining everything.
I'm considering playing a pagan from a family that was never fully Romanized. Since Rome left, they've returned fully to their pagan ways, which makes them suspicious to the other Christian nobles. Despite being pagan, they still strongly oppose the Saxon invaders (who are also pagan), which is one reason they're still tolerated.
The detect alignment stuff could be reflavored as detect christian or detect pagan, with the function just being justified in how different they are.
Great comments, guys! Keep them coming.
- Good catch about Monk. They've been added to the unavailable list
- Never saw the Honor system before. It looks cool, and already geared for Chivalry. We'll be playing with it. I just need to align it with planned game events.
- Non-spell casters can be Pagan, Christian, both, or neither. The median, mean, and majority of commoners are Celtic Christian (see the definitions in the Christian Church description) with tremendous respect for Paganism.
As for alignment... There is Evil in Pendragon taking the form of demons, evil enchanters, and people who have sold their soul to the devil. Both Pagan and Christian can be Good or Evil. Therefore, I would like to keep the alignment mechanics for the game. With Evocation spells non-functional, alignment affecting spells are primarily Abjuration and Divination. Also, remember Evil non-divine-casters must be 5th level before the detect as Faintly Evil and 11th level before the detect as much Evil as a 2nd level cleric or paladin.
Thoughts?
Knights Errant/Ronin may work flavorfully, though not necessarily as a PC class since we inherit pieces of land our allegiances are kind of established as a necessary part of character creation.
Will fief management be part of the game as well? If so, what kind of rules will you be using for this? Having played a fair amount of Harnmaster, they have incredible rules for running a manor, albit it is for their game, but still lots of good stuff.
I was going to start with managing fiefs 'off screen.' But I would be open to letting a player 'lead' fief management. Pendragon has those rules too, so we can compare.
EDIT: I had actually considered using the whole Kingmaker rules, but it was too rules heavy for me to convert. The County of Salisbury is at most 12 hexes large but has a lot of stuff. For example, manors are smaller units than farmed hexes. Maybe if an enthusiastic player wants to do the heavy lifting, we could consider using those rules, too.
cheers
Interest checked:
- Woodsmoke
- Tarondor
- Daniel Stewart
- Loup Blanc
- DM Jelani
- Andiemus
- The Dragon
- GM Elton
- Transylvanian Tadpole
Let's have some final comments before I officially open recruitment. Will I receive submissions from everyone?
cheers
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From me you will..already looking at a possible ranger or fighter character...not too sure which way I want to go..but am working on a Romano-Briton who can trace his heritage back to the last Praefectus Alae (Commander of cavalry) whose villa is now the ancestral fief of the character. Probably was attached as Auxilia to the II or VI Legion, or was tasked to protect Sorviodunum (Sarum).
Yeah, I'm definitely going to figure something out to submit.
Going to submit a mad dog Celtic Briton with a war mastiff companion. Not sure yet if I'm going to go Christian or pagan, but leaning pagan.
Definitely submitting a character. I'll probably go with an Emissary Cavalier, since I like that archetype quite a bit, and it creates interesting possibilities. I keep playing around with a mounted archer build, but that was never actually a technique used (at least not much or to any note) in Britain... I'll definitely figure it out, though. As for backstory, still thinking about that.
I might take a few days to get it together, but you'll probably get a submission from me. I'll start brainstorming a suitable character.
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Apologies if I missed you guys covering this, but I noticed two things I would like to point out.
1) Magus requires to take medium armor proficiency? They would have arcane spell failure chance until level 7, which is when they can pick it up without taking any feats.
2) Starting equipment: My first thought was to make a ranger who was focused on archery support, but I noticed there was no starting ranged weapons. Is this intentional?
I echo Woodsmoke's very first post, I would absolutely love for a campaign like this to happen. You can definitely expect a submission from me!
P.S. Will strength composite bows be available at some point?
I'm going to post another thread for official recruitment in minutes
1) Magus requires to take medium armor proficiency? They would have arcane spell failure chance until level 7, which is when they can pick it up without taking any feats.
2) Starting equipment: My first thought was to make a ranger who was focused on archery support, but I noticed there was no starting ranged weapons. Is this intentional?
P.S. Will strength composite bows be available at some point?
Answers:
1) Yes.2) Yes. Knights don't use bows. Foot-soldiers use bows.
P.S. If you could afford them, they are available now.
cheers