What beats mind blank?


Rules Questions


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Nothing so far as I can tell, RAW. But I may have missed something. Does anything in Pathfinder, RAW, have the ability to obtain information about a target of mind blank?

... The most impressive to me so far: see invisible is specifically listed as a divination which does not work against mind blank. Mind blanked invisible creature cannot be seen even if you have see invisible, and probably the same goes for true seeing. !.

(I note: That parenthetical is new in Pathfinder. A quick straw poll of PF and D&D players I know produces evenly split opinions.)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Dispel Magic and all its variants (Antimagic field, mage disjunction etc...)


Sense Motive and Perception via normal vision still work normally. Zone of Truth doesn't obtain information, it just stops him from lying.


I guess it depends what you are after.

If it's info then yeah Divination spells are a bust.

so we turn to other schools of magic for help

For specific case like Mind Blank and Invisible you use Invisibility purge. An Evocation spell. "Poof" now I see you

Enchantments for interrogation such as Charm or our new best friends Confess and Forced Repentance not great since he gets a save bonus but they still work

There is also interesting word trickery to keep in mind.
"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic"

but not all divinations target him or the area he is in. Follow Aura for example specifically targets the Caster granting him an ability similar to scent. Since the spell doesn't target the Mind Blanked person and is instead granting an ability to the caster it works.

Also you can still use divination spells on the target to gather information about other things. You just can't get info on the Mind Blanked person. You just need to phrase your investigations in a way that doesn't connect to the Mind Blanked individual and doesn't specifically target him.

"Who is your boss" fails because it's info about the Mind Blanked
"Who is the leader of the bandits who live in the abandoned castle near Fury river" works because you aren't asking for any info Mind Blanked.
"where did you take the princess" Fails
"where is the kidnapped princess" works


The argument that the spell modifies the diviner, not the mind blanked target, is specifically rebutted by the inclusion of see invisible as an example. (I cannot tell whether the Paizo team intended this as a change or a clarification.)

I'm also unsure about, say, legend lore or vision, because it's not clear whether the legends count as information about the target. Especially if you pick indirections; can I scry on your best friend if you're mind blanked? Sure, the scrying save is gonna be low because I've got so little information, but I've gotten as far as "heard of".


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The simple answer is that as a level 8 Abjuration, it's monstrously powerful at what it does. I tend to think of level 8 spells as the most interesting spells in terms of game power - level 9 spells are either "unimpressive damage spell" or "monstrous game breaker power".

Still, it's got a huge hole against being dispelled - while you are very hard to track down, anyone who proves highly resistant to divination paints a very large target on their heads for a Dispel. More so than most buffs, that is.

Lantern Lodge

seebs wrote:

Nothing so far as I can tell, RAW. But I may have missed something. Does anything in Pathfinder, RAW, have the ability to obtain information about a target of mind blank?

... The most impressive to me so far: see invisible is specifically listed as a divination which does not work against mind blank. Mind blanked invisible creature cannot be seen even if you have see invisible, and probably the same goes for true seeing. !.

(I note: That parenthetical is new in Pathfinder. A quick straw poll of PF and D&D players I know produces evenly split opinions.)

Mind Blank specifically says "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic." What if its NOT a device or spell and/or is not divination magic?

For example, Supreme Tracker is a mythic Supernatural ability. Would that ignore the protection of Mind Blank? Extraordinary abilities are also not magic.

By comparison, a Spell-like ability to cast a divination spell would be magic and should be protected against by Mind Blank.

Our group hasn't used any psionics in our games since 2nd Edition, but would psionic scrying be blocked? The traditional view on psionics is that it's not magic, it's psionics.

And then there's spells that specifically state that Mind Blank doesn't work against them, such as the augmented use of the Detect Scrying [Mythic] spell.

Lantern Lodge

On a lark, I also checked the Paladin (Detect Evil) and the Inquisitor (Detect Alignment). Both are Spell-like abilities, so Mind Blank would protect against these.

For a Paladin, he'd detect nothing and might figure the guy's not "Evil".

An Inquisitor detecting nothing would be puzzled as he should be getting something.


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Shot first ask later.
Edit: In other works speak with the dead.


Quote:
For example, Supreme Tracker is a mythic Supernatural ability. Would that ignore the protection of Mind Blank? Extraordinary abilities are also not magic.

Supernatural abilities are magic.


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Also, even the mighty mind blank doesn't work against simple Knowledge skills and legwork. You want to know something about someone under the effects of the spell? You hit the books while your socially-inclined friends hit the streets and grease palms.

Lantern Lodge

Bizbag wrote:
Quote:
For example, Supreme Tracker is a mythic Supernatural ability. Would that ignore the protection of Mind Blank? Extraordinary abilities are also not magic.
Supernatural abilities are magic.

But neither are they devices or spells.


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Captain Zoom wrote:
An Inquisitor detecting nothing would be puzzled as he should be getting something.

Inquisitors test for one alignment component at a time (unless they have a certain feat, can't think of the name right now) so they'd just take 4 turns to conclude the target is Neutral.


Captain Zoom wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
Quote:
For example, Supreme Tracker is a mythic Supernatural ability. Would that ignore the protection of Mind Blank? Extraordinary abilities are also not magic.
Supernatural abilities are magic.
But neither are they devices or spells.

Correct. I wasn't commenting on that; you just seemed to suggest that Su. abilities were nonmagical.

Divination magic isn't just a description, it's a defined school of magic. I'd say that any Divination school spells, and any SLAs that replicate or are treated as Divination school spells, are blocked. Su. abilities are borderline, but if they specifically make reference to a divination spell, they may be blocked too.

Supreme Tracker doesn't replicate a spell, so it will function. That said, there's probably a mythic equivalent to Mind Blank, or there probably will be eventually.


Forseti wrote:
Captain Zoom wrote:
An Inquisitor detecting nothing would be puzzled as he should be getting something.
Inquisitors test for one alignment component at a time (unless they have a certain feat, can't think of the name right now) so they'd just take 4 turns to conclude the target is Neutral.

Honestly if an Inquisitor makes himself infamous enough, enemies will start investing in cheap undetectable alignment potions, wands, scrolls, or spells. The inquisitor will probably start being suspicious of every Neutral-reading enemy starting around level 7 or 8.

Lantern Lodge

Bizbag wrote:
Divination magic isn't just a description, it's a defined school of magic. I'd say that any Divination school spells, and any SLAs that replicate or are treated as Divination school spells, are blocked. Su. abilities are borderline, but if they specifically make reference to a divination spell, they may be blocked too.

The definition of Supernatural Ability says: "Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like." In my opinion, I don't think you need to try and analyze where the Supernatural Ability replicates a divination school spell. It's just not a spell, even if it says something along the lines of working like a particular spell. On the other hand, I can't readily think of an example, so it's possible we're discussing an issue that doesn't exist!

Lantern Lodge

Forseti wrote:
Captain Zoom wrote:
An Inquisitor detecting nothing would be puzzled as he should be getting something.
Inquisitors test for one alignment component at a time (unless they have a certain feat, can't think of the name right now) so they'd just take 4 turns to conclude the target is Neutral.

Good catch! And I just finished putting together an Inquisitor for Wrath of the Righteous... and still missed it.


Mmmm. If Mind Blank even blocks out Wish and Miracle(Which is your God literally trying to find this dude), I'm inclined to believe it works on Supernatural stuff too.


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Scavion wrote:
Mmmm. If Mind Blank even blocks out Wish and Miracle(Which is your God literally trying to find this dude), I'm inclined to believe it works on Supernatural stuff too.

That's my inkling, but probably only int the case of Su. abilities that specifically mimic spells.


Bizbag wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Mmmm. If Mind Blank even blocks out Wish and Miracle(Which is your God literally trying to find this dude), I'm inclined to believe it works on Supernatural stuff too.
That's my inkling, but probably only int the case of Su. abilities that specifically mimic spells.

I'll agree on this though I also like the idea of using Mind Blank to assault a Demiplane where the creator has a supernatural sense to detect anything in it precisely.

I demand a Mythic Mind Blank!


Torture works.

Mind Blank won't save ya from having pieces carved out of your hide.


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Rynjin, being a caster capable of casting 8th-level spells generally does.


If you're looking for Mythic Mind Blank, Legendary Games released that as "Mythic Magic: Core Spells". Some of them are pretty good too!


Was looking into this more. I re-read see invisibility, and note that it presents to you translucent shapes of the invisible things, so you can clearly tell they're invisible. So, it's showing you something based on what you would see if they were visible. So I am starting to think Paizo was right to rule that mind blank beats see invisible.

So. Now for some puzzles:

1. You use augury to try to tell the future. A mind-blanked person is planning to ambush you if you do whatever thing. Does the augury tell you what would happen if the mind-blanked individual weren't there, or is the mere fact that "something will happen" sufficiently open-ended that the spell can reveal it?
2. How about foresight and an ambush by someone under mind blank?
3. Can you suppress the effects of mind blank partially or for limited purposes, such as to allow someone to check whether you're cursed? It doesn't have a (D) duration, so you can't dismiss it.


True Seeing should work on Mind Blank. It's all in the name of the spell.

MIND BLANK

True Seeing does not read minds. I don't see how casting a spell that makes your mind "invisible" to the world supposed to make you immune to being seen with True Seeing.


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seebs wrote:

Nothing so far as I can tell, RAW. But I may have missed something. Does anything in Pathfinder, RAW, have the ability to obtain information about a target of mind blank?

... The most impressive to me so far: see invisible is specifically listed as a divination which does not work against mind blank. Mind blanked invisible creature cannot be seen even if you have see invisible, and probably the same goes for true seeing. !.

(I note: That parenthetical is new in Pathfinder. A quick straw poll of PF and D&D players I know produces evenly split opinions.)

Glitterdust. Mind-blank is so situational that if it needs to be countered i have a feeling someone's trying to scry and fry.


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Barachiel Shina wrote:

True Seeing should work on Mind Blank. It's all in the name of the spell.

MIND BLANK

True Seeing does not read minds. I don't see how casting a spell that makes your mind "invisible" to the world supposed to make you immune to being seen with True Seeing.

1. Mind Blank specifically calls out See Invisibility, True Seeing's baby brother, as an example of a spell that is stopped.

2. Mind Blank even stops Wish and Miracle if used to try to find info about the caster.

Name doesn't mean much. Just because it's Dimension Door doesn't mean there's a door for enemies to jump in after you or just because it's called Burning Hands doesn't mean only hands are affected.


Edit: Shoulda Refreshed, chaoseffect said the same thing I did.

Even with the exact same reference to See invisibility (I called it a cousin though XD).


Interesting note:

Echolocation is transmutation and is not blocked by mind blank.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
seebs wrote:

Nothing so far as I can tell, RAW. But I may have missed something. Does anything in Pathfinder, RAW, have the ability to obtain information about a target of mind blank?

Yes, but you have to ask indirectly. The wizard may be protected from direct divination from mindblank but his metaphorical foot prints are not. Mind blank does not protect you from a well built spy network. Nor does it protect your friends and allies from divinations. Unless you take other efforts to keep yourself anomynous, mind blank isn't the absolute answer to being found out in other ways.


Captain Zoom wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
Quote:
For example, Supreme Tracker is a mythic Supernatural ability. Would that ignore the protection of Mind Blank? Extraordinary abilities are also not magic.
Supernatural abilities are magic.
But neither are they devices or spells.

Honestly, as per the mythic tracker it's pretty clear. It gives you the ability to mundane track (which wouldnt be subject to mind blank) and the sense ability that specifies that effects that block divination attempts essentially function normally.


Going strictly by the book it says "spells and devices", but I don't think all SU's were intended to bypass it.

As an example of this the magic chapter has the aiming rules for "spells", but SU's while not called out have the same limitations.


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Hi.


seebs wrote:

Nothing so far as I can tell, RAW. But I may have missed something. Does anything in Pathfinder, RAW, have the ability to obtain information about a target of mind blank?

... The most impressive to me so far: see invisible is specifically listed as a divination which does not work against mind blank. Mind blanked invisible creature cannot be seen even if you have see invisible, and probably the same goes for true seeing. !.

(I note: That parenthetical is new in Pathfinder. A quick straw poll of PF and D&D players I know produces evenly split opinions.)

All knowledge skills and any other skill that could obtain information, e.g. survival (tracking), perception, social skills.

Divination spells that do not target the protected entity directly, e.g. Contact Plane.

Non-divination spells and magic items, e.g. Echolocation, polymorph effects.


TL;DR: Mind Blank is super good, all divination that specifically looks at you or searches for you fails. Counter the other things that the person is using in conjunction with it. When all else fails, dispel magic is always a good choice, except when it’s not.

The way I see it is that while under the effect of a Mind Blank spell, you are completely and utterly invisible to ALL forms of magical divination detection. This includes True Seeing, See Invisibility, Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, etc. If the spell is trying to glean information from observing the target in some way via divination, it fails.

A good example of the scope and specifics of this spell comes from its reference to Arcane eye and scrying.
"In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected."

From that I read that the subject of the MB is simply invisible to the Arcane Eye. Because of this I could argue that the subject would be invisible to other things like detect magic as well. Because these spells create an area of effect that detect things and creatures. Arcane Sight of course uses the Detect Magic template which by proxy is similar to Detect Evil, which is specifically blocked. Then True Sight is worded in a way that makes it appear that it confers a special power of vision to root out the truth. It allows you to see things “as they really are” at a range of 120 ft similar to how an Arcane Eye allows you to see as you normally do, but through the sensor.

Another point to make, is that the person under this effect would also have their gear protected. Hence detect magic failing to see that the armor they are wearing glows with any magic. Or that the Sword that they carry is radiating an overwhelmingly evil aura. They are truly invisible to magic. To me, it’s as simple as that. It’s an 8th level spell. They’re that hard to cast for a reason. If it can block Wish and Miracle, then I don’t know that it can be beaten by anything in regards to Divination.

As a side note to the reference to just dispelling it. There is a prestige class that gets the ability as a constant effect that they can lower and raise at will. The Envoy of Balance’s ability, “Utterly Inscrutable” gives it to them as a constant effect that they can suppress as a swift action and resume as an immediate. Okay so you dispel it, they then use their immediate action to raise it again. It’s a little good and my GM is a little worried about the extent of its power, especially considering I have gotten it at level 13. So this whole thread is relevant to my interests.

Now, a really interesting question that I pose to the hive mind here, what about symbols and things that trigger based on alignment, race, living, etc. Are they “detecting it magically” or simply observing it in a mundane fashion. Alignment is obvious. It would have to be magic. But Race and Living or Undead? The spell specifically references Spells and *devices,* would they count?


Depue21 wrote:
Now, a really interesting question that I pose to the hive mind here, what about symbols and things that trigger based on alignment, race, living, etc. Are they “detecting it magically” or simply observing it in a mundane fashion. Alignment is obvious. It would have to be magic. But Race and Living or Undead? The spell specifically references Spells and *devices,* would they count?

Only if the spell is of the divination school.

Spells of other schools are not affected by Mind Blank.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Outside of the raw restriction.

If a wizard wanted to get around mind blank a 9th level divination spell created with that purpose should probably work. (In our home game it was True Seeing, Greater)


Why should a 9th level work? Just because it's of a higher level? It would only work it it was mentioned specifically that it works against Mind Blank.
Bestow Curse, Greater, which is lvl 6 IIRC, can still be removed by Remove Curse, which is a lvl 3 spell.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The reason it would have to be ninth is otherwise wish or miracle could reproduce it which they explicitly can't


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
grudgekeyper wrote:

Outside of the raw restriction.

If a wizard wanted to get around mind blank a 9th level divination spell created with that purpose should probably work. (In our home game it was True Seeing, Greater)

I would say no to that as a GM because mind blank explicitly blocks wish and miracle. That said, home game is home game and I'm not your GM.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Purpose built ninth level spells can do things that wish or miracle can't. Not even a wish can stop time. Which is why it might be permissible.

But you are correct. If that is something any ninth level divination spell can do is definitely up to the gm (or paizo if they ever publish a second ninth level divination spell)


grudgekeyper wrote:
The reason it would have to be ninth is otherwise wish or miracle could reproduce it which they explicitly can't

But only for being lvl 9th it wouldn't be able to beat Mind Blank.

It would have to be lvl 9 and say explicitely that it can beat Mind Blank.
Also, there should be a very good reason to be able to do so. Just saying "it beats Mind Blank because I decided it does" doesn't make any sense.


You could invent a Detect Mind Blank spell that tells you if there are any Mind Blank users in a particular area (but not who they are). Wouldn't necessarily have to be level 9, in the same way that Remove Curse can dispel curses from higher level spells. But as always, that's a GM call.


Kileanna wrote:
grudgekeyper wrote:
The reason it would have to be ninth is otherwise wish or miracle could reproduce it which they explicitly can't

But only for being lvl 9th it wouldn't be able to beat Mind Blank.

It would have to be lvl 9 and say explicitely that it can beat Mind Blank.
Also, there should be a very good reason to be able to do so. Just saying "it beats Mind Blank because I decided it does" doesn't make any sense.

I believe grudgekeyper is talking about using the rules for independent spell research from the Magic section of the core rulebook (with GM permission) to create a custom spell specifically designed to beat mind blank. There's nothing automatically special about making it a 9th level spell, just that it seems to be the appropriate power level for a spell with that capability.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Correct


Yes, I aggree with that. That spell could of course be created. The only fact that I was arguing was that I understood that he meant that for being 9th spell it should be able to do so even if the homebrewed spell wasn't meant to do that.
I think that a divination spell that could beat Mind Blank should be specifically designed to do that, not just having that capacity as a mere addendum. It's such a strong ability for a spell to be just a side effect of another powerful spell. But again, it's just my opinion.


Echolocation is my fav spell vs MindBkanked Invisible targets


Great spell. I like it for beating cloud spells too. As it depends on natural senses it bypasses a lot of barriers that divination spells do not.


dispel magic.

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