I have only ever played in home campaigns with a group of my friends, and we are about to begin a new campaign. To cut a long story short, I want to play a Cleric of Urgathoa. My friend whom is one of our GMs, keeps shutting down the idea, saying it it would be impossible as her evil aura will cause too much problems for the party. (Not in those words exactly)
Not wanting to play a straight up evil cleric, I've stated her our to be true neutral, though she will still have the evil aura given to her from Urgathoa.
Now I want to just get a few opinions on the matter. Even though this cleric has an evil aura, all she wants to do is abuse every pleasure life (and the afterlife) have to offer. She isn't aligned evil, and she knows there are lines that can't be crossed (while pesky LG PCs/NPCs are watching) even if they tempt her every step of the way. Would she still be picked out of a crowd and hunted down for her evil aura? Would interactions with Good NPCs be impossible because of her aura and not her alignment? Would the Cleric or other PCs be able to make diplomacy to convince NPCs that even though she follows an evil deity she is not evil herself? Could the game play as normal without having to stop to make rolls at every "friendly" npc encounter? Would RP even be an option with Paladins she may come across?
Well, I am going to sleep. I'll be back in seven hours to see what everyone has to say, so if you have a question, don't expect a quick response. Thanks!
Would she still be picked out of a crowd and hunted down for her evil aura?
Well, a first-level cleric of an evil deity will still radiate evil to the detect evil spell, which paladins get at will. It's up to any individual paladin how often they use that ability and how they react.
Would interactions with Good NPCs be impossible because of her aura and not her alignment?
The aura is only detectable via magic. Unless the local barkeeper is a spellcaster, you'll still get served as per usual.
Would the Cleric or other PCs be able to make diplomacy to convince NPCs that even though she follows an evil deity she is not evil herself?
Depends on your Diplomacy score. With a high enough roll, you could persuade people that you were the Grand Duchess Anastasia; with a low enough roll, you would fail to persuade people that you're not a fish.
Would RP even be an option with Paladins she may come across?
Depends on the paladin. Even with the most liberal of paladins, being a neutral cleric of an evil deity is hardly something to brag about.
It's one of the age old rubs of the paladin. A paladin, as written, would never travel with at least half of the adventurers out there, as played. There are so many variables in this problem that have to do with the people involved that pointing out what is written begins to become a very weak argument. You may need to make a concession for the good of the gaming group. I'm sure there is another character you could play that will be just as fun. And in the future you can refer to this concession when another dispute comes up.
Would she still be picked out of a crowd and hunted down for her evil aura?
That depends heavily on the game. Ideally there are plenty of neutral clerics of evil deities out there, and ideally he could just eschew that rule if he really thought it caused problems. Really you shouldn't be constantly scanned for evil unless your in a game where for some reason people constantly scan your alignment.
Can I ask why you want to play a cleric of Urgothoa?
Orfamay Quest,
My friend is a very rules oriented gamer. When it comes to how things are written, even if they are guidelines to let you shape the RP the way he wants, he will take the most literal route. Same thing with NPCs, especially paladins which I believe he thinks are all cookie-cutter in their responses to things evil. The paladin would just as likely attack a lonely level 1 cleric with a smite evil on sight just as likely as it would a level 11 Babau that's eating babies. Pretty much, what I'm trying to do with this thread, is try to either find a solution to this problem in the books or get enough people to say: It's alright to let things slip for the sake of having fun.
Ciaran Barnes,
This "argument" has come up before between my friend and I. I wanted to make this character back when he ran Council of Thieves but shot the idea down saying that it would cause problems with the main group of NPCs you are supposed to be helping. Though I believed, after playing it, they would accept almost anyone in helping them.
MrSin,
Yes you may. You see, I usually play Paladins in every campaign we play. Save for the Pirate campaign where I played a witch that was fascinated by siege weapons. Having scanned the Gods and Magic book to understand Iomadea better (as all my paladins serve her), it was the Pallid Princess, Urgathoa, whom caught my attention. As most of my characters have a dark secret they are struggling with or trying to atone for, even as paladins, the thought of playing a character that is blatantly twisted seemed like fun. What better than an Anthropophagolagnia, Anthropophagy, Erotophonophilia, Sadistic, Necrophiliac (just to list a few) cleric of Urgathoa whom begins every combat situation by intimidating even the strongest looking opponents with promises of showing them the true pleasures of the afterlife by way of her scythe. Though, for the sake of maintaining alignment/in case there are strongly opposed PCs in the party, I'll probably tone down on the more extreme end of her list of pleasures.
If you have a chance I suggest reading the faiths of corruption book. It adresses the non mechanical aspects of the various religons. More specifically it adresses the attraction for non evil people in these religons.
So to be clear though mechanically any cleric can be within one step of their god. Very few of the religons in golarion are monolithic entities with rigid dogma. They have in many cases a base broad enough to attract people from 4 different alignments.
There is also mechanically as much a difference between le and ne as between ne and n.
Anyhow on to urgathoa specifically. One of the aspects of her religon is consumption. Wether its food drugs or sex. Combined with immortality themese this will draw in non evil people.
From what I understand the producer of all those enywined succubi pictures in the books is a cn cleric of noticula.
One thing about detect alignment, the paladin detect evil thing and the rest is that they are not fool proof. For example clerics get the spell "undetectable alignment" as a second level spell. This spell lasts 24 hours and protects against all forms of divination. There's probably magic items that can help to.
Just as a personal opinion you'll probably want to work with the DM to find a line between neutral and evil that you can both live with. Also a lot of what's in the opening post is completely up to the GM, so it sounds like being a "nearly evil" PC could be hard IMO.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing about detect alignment, the paladin detect evil thing and the rest is that they are not fool proof. For example clerics get the spell "undetectable alignment" as a second level spell. This spell lasts 24 hours and protects against all forms of divination. There's probably magic items that can help to.
There's no reason that a Neutral cleric of an Evil deity can't work. Even without Undetectable Alignment, most NPCs don't have access to on-demand Detect Evil, and while those who do (paladins, inquisitors, a few improved familiars) are likely to view you with some suspicion, it's often considered bad form to Detect-Smite. One reason for that is that neutral clerics of deities do exist, as do neutral users of Infernal Healing, and in most worlds flirting with evil like that is not considered worthy of immediate execution. The paladin's code says you should punish those who threaten innocents, not aid those who will use aid for evil ends, and avoid associating with evil, but doesn't advocate slaying followers of evil religions. There's also the fact that a Smite Evil wouldn't actually work on you since you're not in fact evil.
However, the fact that your GM thinks "The paladin would just as likely attack a lonely level 1 cleric with a smite evil on sight just as likely as it would a level 11 Babau that's eating babies" and the fact that he's shot down this concept before on thin justifications makes me think he's really just interested in a black and white style of play and is worried that an "almost evil" character doesn't fit with that. He may want to play a game about heroes and feel that a cleric of an evil god can't be a hero. If that's the case, concealing your character's alignment isn't going to solve your problem. That means it's time to have a real conversation about whether this is important to you and whether it'll ever be something he'd be comfortable having in a game.
You might also need to talk to the other players since the GM claims that the PCs would take issue. Is this true? Remember it's not just about alignment - a TN cleric of Pharasma might have more issue with a worshipper of Urgathoa than a paladin of Sarenrae might. And if your group does overwhelmingly like to play Big Damn Heroes, would they be OK with taking on this character as a redemption/conversion target - and would you be OK with this character potentially being redeemed or converted?
Mojorat,
I've read the Faith of Corruption solely for understanding Urgathoa better. A lot of her aspects are just as romantic as they are evil, in a twisted way, granted. However, as a cleric, you have to be one step. I could easily make a Warrior or Barbarian of Urgathoa and probably make a better stated character with what I want to do. Which is to make a character that intimidates enemies and cuts them down with a scythe. The idea of a cleric doing this fascinates me more. I like to believe that RP games like Pathfinder are more about having fun interesting PCs rather than cookie-cutter Barbarians with a Greatsword power attacking with 18 STR at level 1. I find that being unable to play an evil character somewhat against this idea that made me begin playing Pathfinder in the first place without having to jump hoops upsetting.
ChaiGuy,
I know, Undetectable Alignment, can help, but that is a use of one of my spells per-day. It is like punishing players that want to play a neutral character with an evil aura. Paladins go through the same issue with their code of conduct, except that they don't make every friendly PC hostile after detecting your alignment. Sometimes it is better to die defending your party from a horde of demons than it is to die because the NPCs that are supposed to be helping you hesitate. It doesn't help that Paladins have really strong special abilities.
Luthorne,
Yeah the GM makes the ultimate decision, but that's my problem. My friend that is giving me a hard time about this issue is one of our GMs. The main reason for the thread is to get examples or other opinions on this matter to try and convince him this can be done without as much trouble as he thinks it will cause. The thing about Paladins too, especially of Iomadae is that they would rather evil surrender its causes and reform than straight up kill them (Unless you are my paladin in the Wrath of the Righteous whom believes evil is incurable).
Overall, I'm not extremely versed in the rules of Pathfinder and I'm not 100% on how things are meant to be played. I'm just trying to find a way to make this work without making my character a detriment to the party.
Weirdo,
"The paladin would just as likely attack a lonely level 1 cleric with a smite evil on sight just as likely as it would a level 11 Babau that's eating babies" Was a bit of an exaggeration, both my friend and I know that alignment is what matters to Smite. However, it does seem like he doesn't believe in gray areas. Reading a lot of what the devs are posting about evil and good aligned things, as well as the use of spells, IE using an evil spell for the sake of good seems to have a lack of gray area too. Which is where I can see where my friend is coming from since he is the type that will read and understand everything in the most literal way.
I'm sure my fellow friends would be fine with my character in the party, and I agree about the Pharasma Cleric and Sarenrae Paladin. It will eventually come down to some of the party and I talking to him when we finally group up to run our new campaign. I just wanted to see if there were any clear rulings or addendums that he would understand.
How about you suggest that your friend GM play a short game series, like 1-3 game sessions where all of the PCs are evil (or near evil) (if the other players agree) or just lets you play a evil (or near evil) and let him see how it plays out. Doing this would be easier than getting him agree to a long running campaign. That way maybe he might see if he likes that kind of play in the game without long term "damage" in a longer running game. It could help iron out any problems before they could effect a "main character".
|
It's up to the group how they want to play the situation, but the fact of the matter would be you are a cleric of an evil entity, theoretically promoting some of their views, channeling negative energy, and displaying an evil unholy symbol as a part of spell casting. At best, a knowledgeable NPC would ask why you support that diety while performing heroic deeds. Most cities probably ban the worship of many evil dieties anyway, which would lead to that cleric being persecuted in town.
Given the other sources mentioned above, I would have to go into reading the other material to figure something out. I personally as a stickler for noting alignments like this would try to steer your character's story arc towards eventually being redeemed, probably as a cleric of Shelyn. There's also the matter of the more good deeds you do, the inevitable question of how long an evil diety grants you spells exists. Certianly it depends on what the party does overall and what the GM's campaign plans are. It's somethign that can be hidden or a while, but eventually the "Good" NPCs will start asking questions.
Minor tech detail. Even though she has a "powerful" evil aura, she is not herself evil.
Smite wouldn't work.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
What better than an Anthropophagolagnia, Anthropophagy, Erotophonophilia, Sadistic, Necrophiliac (just to list a few) cleric of Urgathoa..
okay, I had to google a few of those and dude..... This is NOT a neutral character. That's blisteringly evil. How you could possibly think that sentence could ever describe a character that is of a neutral alignment is beyond my comprehension.
if your gm is one of those who believe paladins insta-smite all evil on detect.. you should find a way to project your evil aura on random people and enjoy the paladin's fall.
|
|
You'll get plenty of opinions here, but there's a lot of table variation in alignment - how it's handled, and what should be done with Evil. The closest you'll get to RAW is:
In fact, having an evil alignment alone does not make one a supervillain or even require one to be thwarted or killed. The extent of a character’s evil alignment might be a lesser evil, like selfishness, greed, or extreme vanity.
Which suggests a less-smite-happy approach may be called for.
I could easily make a Warrior or Barbarian of Urgathoa and probably make a better stated character with what I want to do. Which is to make a character that intimidates enemies and cuts them down with a scythe. The idea of a cleric doing this fascinates me more. ...
I know, Undetectable Alignment, can help, but that is a use of one of my spells per-day. It is like punishing players that want to play a neutral character with an evil aura.
Have you considered playing an Inquisitor? They:
1) Are really good at intimidating things.
2) Are pretty good at cutting things down.
3) Are wis-based divine casters, empowered by a deity.
4) Don't have an alignment aura.
They're also described as being a little less conventional in how they follow their deity, which means it'd be easier to rationalize your character doing heroic things in pursuit of some larger goal of Urgathoa.
Would she still be picked out of a crowd and hunted down for her evil aura?
By and large, we're talking about Paladins here. The answer depends upon the outlook of the paladin and the local laws and customs. If the worship of evil deities is allowed and occurs locally, the Paladin's hands are tied; there is no crime he can accuse you of, and attacking you for no reason other than your aura would make him the criminal. He'd certainly be very suspicious and uncooperative with you, but so long as you're on the right side of the law he can't attack you without coming dangerously close to falling and/or getting thrown in jail himself.
However, if the local laws explicitly prohibit the worship of evil deities you're kinda hooped; that's open season for Paladins. Even if there's no specific law against evil deities such faiths are often quite unwelcome, and that can be a sufficient grey zone for a Paladin to act. A particularly vindictive Paladin in a legal/moral grey area can get away with some very aggressive behavior.
So it really comes down to the GM and the setting. If the GM wants to make your life difficult, he certainly can. If he's being accomodating, then you should be fine so long as you play your end of that bargain and keep a good public image. Your best defense is a good diplomacy check and having connections with powerful people.
In fact, having an evil alignment alone does not make one a supervillain or even require one to be thwarted or killed. The extent of a character’s evil alignment might be a lesser evil, like selfishness, greed, or extreme vanity.
I'd go so far as to say the majority of evil people fit that description. Just like you don't have to be a paragon of virtue to maintain a good alignment, you don't have to be some sort of baby-eater to have an evil alignment.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
However, if the local laws explicitly prohibit the worship of evil deities you're kinda hooped; that's open season for Paladins.
Wooh! Witchunt. You know I'm pretty sure my neighbor is a worshipper of an evil deity. The one over there who left all his property to me and refuses to sell me his land. Better go smite him ASAP!
Detecting an evil aura is still sufficient grounds for a Paladin to arrest the Cleric, after which further divinations can rule out false-positives. An actual Cleric of an evil deity is going to have trouble getting out of that one.
Mojorat,
I've read the Faith of Corruption solely for understanding Urgathoa better. A lot of her aspects are just as romantic as they are evil, in a twisted way, granted. However, as a cleric, you have to be one step. I could easily make a Warrior or Barbarian of Urgathoa and probably make a better stated character with what I want to do. Which is to make a character that intimidates enemies and cuts them down with a scythe. The idea of a cleric doing this fascinates me more. I like to believe that RP games like Pathfinder are more about having fun interesting PCs rather than cookie-cutter Barbarians with a Greatsword power attacking with 18 STR at level 1. I find that being unable to play an evil character somewhat against this idea that made me begin playing Pathfinder in the first place without having to jump hoops upsetting.
I think im confuser. " ....a cleric of urgathoa must be within one step.." i thought the whole discussion was about a neutral cleric. That is within one step.
Look as far as urgathoa goes she has neutral clerics its perfectly legitimate within the rules and golarions information supports it i really dont see the issue there.
The paladin stuff isa wholly seperate issue. But any paladin that just detects and smites wont have his paladinhood long.
I think how the Clergy of this god is viewed by the public in the most important question. This will probably differ from region to region.
ThSome evil religions perform some sort of community service so are at least sorta welcomed. Maybe a temple is allowed to exist but no one would want to be seen entering it. It could also be straight out illegal to worship that good. Even if the religion is outlawed people including officials might treat its clerics with fearful respect.
@ OP talk with the GM about it is the only advice I can give you. Depending on this converstion, there is always the hidden priest archtype. Personally I would have the far majority treat you at worst with fearful or wary respect.
Detecting an evil aura is still sufficient grounds for a Paladin to arrest the Cleric, after which further divinations can rule out false-positives. An actual Cleric of an evil deity is going to have trouble getting out of that one.
I got to disagree with you. Having evil aura is not evidence of a crime, a lot of evil things are not criminal. Too many "innocent" people being hauled might have made the brass short tempered with any idiot arrest someone just for having an aura. This is doubly true if that person's "boss" could take it personal and have lime disease infested ticks appear all over town.
I got to disagree with you. Having evil aura is not evidence of a crime, a lot of evil things are not criminal.
I was responding to MrSin above. We are specifically presuming that worship of evil deities is itself a crime in the city/nation in question, so having an evil aura would be a strong indicator that you may be a cleric of an evil deity and sufficient grounds to bring you in for questioning.
Without that caveat, I fully agree that a Paladin cannot act based on the presence of an evil aura alone.
What better than an Anthropophagolagnia, Anthropophagy, Erotophonophilia, Sadistic, Necrophiliac (just to list a few) cleric of Urgathoa..okay, I had to google a few of those and dude..... This is NOT a neutral character. That's blisteringly evil. How you could possibly think that sentence could ever describe a character that is of a neutral alignment is beyond my comprehension.
I think it was a joke :P
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the main point here is that if your GM is of the "rules are rules" mentality, and of the "anything evil will automatically be destroyed/shunned/feared/reviled by anyone non-evil" (which isn't actually a rule at all) then there's nothing you're going to be able to do.
I'm actually surprised no one has yet brought up the entire nation of Cheliax, whose rulers worship (and derive power from) Asmodeus yet is populated by people of all alignments. And merchants/diplomats/adventurers from all over the Inner Sea willingly interact with Cheliaxians.
Alright, back from work!
I think it was a joke :PWhat better than an Anthropophagolagnia, Anthropophagy, Erotophonophilia, Sadistic, Necrophiliac (just to list a few) cleric of Urgathoa..okay, I had to google a few of those and dude..... This is NOT a neutral character. That's blisteringly evil. How you could possibly think that sentence could ever describe a character that is of a neutral alignment is beyond my comprehension.
It certainly was, though she will have her twisted quirks. I am going to play her as a newcomer to the Pallid Princess' cult. She is open to anything, yet still afraid to try anything truly diabolical. However, things are subject to change as the game begins.
Given the other sources mentioned above, I would have to go into reading the other material to figure something out. I personally as a stickler for noting alignments like this would try to steer your character's story arc towards eventually being redeemed, probably as a cleric of Shelyn.
With what I have in mind, character wise, I wouldn't be upset nor surprised if this happened. Although, as a player I want to make the non-evil evil cleric thing work. To prove that this RP can be more than just black and white when it comes to choice in what you want to play. As I said somewhere up there, I find it upsetting that a game where you build characters from the ground up will limit you on what you can and can't play, especially when they offer so many resources to make such interesting and diverse characters.
Weirdo,
Inquisitor has crossed my mind. The Stern-Gaze would be awesome in increasing the intimidate factor I want to play out, and they have the domain-spells. Though with character traits, campaign traits, racial bonuses, and other traits I can make a pretty beastly intimidation roll at level 1. The domains are there as a Cleric and she can channel as well as give people the ability to heal from negative if needed. BUT the main thing that the Inquisitor would be lacking is the fact that the character I have in mind is a misguided cleric that desires pleasure too fill the holes life has made in her. I'm not so big on making characters that are only focused on the fighting and skill checks, but ones that are memorable and fun to play.
I think im confuser. " ....a cleric of urgathoa must be within one step.." i thought the whole discussion was about a neutral cleric. That is within one step.
Look as far as urgathoa goes she has neutral clerics its perfectly legitimate within the rules and golarions information supports it i really dont see the issue there.
The paladin stuff isa wholly seperate issue. But any paladin that just detects and smites wont have his paladinhood long.
It is a discussion about Neutral Clerics of Evil Deities, I was just reiterating the rule of clerics being within one step (ie NE Urgathoa; Clerics can be NE, CE, LE, or TN < The one we are talking about).
The issue is that there are (seemingly) no real rules that clarify whether or not Neutral Clerics with an Evil Aura can be a logically playable character without taking the campaign and tossing it aside because the Chaotic Good Archer, Neutral Good Cleric, and Lawful Good Paladin will have nothing to do with you or your company because of your Aura. Though it has turned more into an interesting discussion, I am still trying to find points of reason to give to my GM to let him consider laxing on her Black and White look at alignment and how they clash with each other.I think the main point here is that if your GM is of the "rules are rules" mentality, and of the "anything evil will automatically be destroyed/shunned/feared/reviled by anyone non-evil" (which isn't actually a rule at all) then there's nothing you're going to be able to do.
I'm actually surprised no one has yet brought up the entire nation of Cheliax, whose rulers worship (and derive power from) Asmodeus yet is populated by people of all alignments. And merchants/diplomats/adventurers from all over the Inner Sea willingly interact with Cheliaxians.
I was waiting for someone to bring this up so I can put out a point I made with my GM.
We are as far into the Wrath of the Righteous as we can get, and many times he has mentioned that; "The Crusade will take anyone that is willing to offer help." Being that Crusades are not strictly made of Paladins (just the important figures). With that, I brought up the idea: If Demons and Devils hate each other, wouldn't the Paladins accept the help of the followers of Asmodeus? The Paladin's Code of Conduct does not flatly prohibit them from allying themselves with Evil, as long as it is in the cure of a Greater Evil. Devils are also Lawful, so they will not act out and mindlessly kill people like demons do, so the threat of the Paladin finding the alliance too damaging to their Code (though not 100%) is small. Especially against the Worldwound. Paladins just need to make atonement for their allying with evil.
So, in my interpretation of this, a Paladin would ally himself with a lonely cleric with a weak aura if they prove that they are devoted to stopping the greater evil in that campaign. Hopefully the GM won't make the Paladin actually need the spell Atonement for the sake of the game.
Alright, off to bed.
Ahh well wether n priests exist of evil dieties (they do in fact I suspect asmodeus has a lot of ln priests focus on the rule of law) and how those priests interact with societies are seperate.
Basically there is nothing that says clerics have to anounce their faith. Sure the hooy symbol needs to be visible but there are ways around that. I onky did up to book 1 in the ap your playing but the view I've seen writiten is that the crusaders are desperate for live bodies. They have a clear enemy with clear sides and I think anyone not on the demons side can be acceptable.
If there is no paladin in your party you can just hide your faith and move on. You can easily prevent detection in general.
Mojorat,
Wrath of the Righteous isn't the campaign that this cleric will be in. I am running a Holy Tactician Paladin of Iomadae whom is focused around commanding the mass combat and buffing with the mythic powers in smaller combat. Mythic powers kick so much ass by the way! WotR is a great campaign so far.
Since we are caught up on the books we have in that campaign, we are going to start a smaller set of games, most likely just doing PFS mods using the PFS format with our own house rules. These mods are where I plan to play this Cleric of Urgathoa. I was just taking quotes from the WotR campaign as an example of yes; there are indeed gray areas in Pathfinder.
Detecting an evil aura is still sufficient grounds for a Paladin to arrest the Cleric, after which further divinations can rule out false-positives. An actual Cleric of an evil deity is going to have trouble getting out of that one.I got to disagree with you. Having evil aura is not evidence of a crime, a lot of evil things are not criminal. Too many "innocent" people being hauled might have made the brass short tempered with any idiot arrest someone just for having an aura. This is doubly true if that person's "boss" could take it personal and have lime disease infested ticks appear all over town.
One issue with this sort of thing is that not all evil people detect as evil. Only Undead, Evil Outsiders and clerics (and antipaladins) of evil deities have this aura right off the bat; You have to have 5 or more HD to register as evil to a Paladin. As such, more minor evils, like sleeping with your neighbor's wife, aren't going show up on "detect evil" so chances are if you show up as a blip on the Paladin's Evildar, he'll know something's up. Now, it's still probably the case that the paladin in question would arrest, rather than kill on sight, and then, it's up to the town whether there's any law against worshiping an evil deity, and whether the party will trust (and the DM will allow) a worshiper of an evil deity.
Would she still be picked out of a crowd and hunted down for her evil aura?By and large, we're talking about Paladins here.We always wind up talking about Paladins. I'd bet this thread wouldn't even be on the boards if it wasn't for the class with the detect Evil radar sense and a hard wired set of compulsions.
There are very few campaigns that would not be improved by the class' deletion.
Paladins are one issue yes, but they aren't the only one. I for one think Paladins are fun characters that can really benefit both sides of the board. The thing that bugs me is the conflict between good and evil all together. Pathfinder seems to have a very black and white view on alignment. A good cleric can't use an evil scroll of healing to save a dying child unless he is ready to have an alignment shift. A good deed is overshadowed by the fact he is using an evil means. Making the means not justify the ends in way of spell casting, yet good pcs can use evil allies to fight a greater evil. Using evil as a means to an ends yet not suffering an alignment shift, even paladins are within their code to have evil allies, they just have to make atonement afterwards.
Actually those acts shouldn't shift alignment instantly. The rate at which they turn you in a direction is really determined by the DM. What makes it even more awkward is that the player could just continue acting like a saint despite having their alignment shifted. A single atonement can change you back too.
Alignment is a mess though yes.
...character with what I want to do. Which is to make a character that intimidates enemies and cuts them down with a scythe....
If this is really all you want, have you considered a Warpriest, from the playtest? Worship Erastil, who is, among other things, a farming god, use the scythe instead of a longbow, as the class allows w/o penalties, and then just be intimidating through RP and skills. This obviously will require a drastic change in your character's personality, but it is certainly doable mechanically. I understand if this doesn't work.
...character with what I want to do. Which is to make a character that intimidates enemies and cuts them down with a scythe....If this is really all you want, have you considered a Warpriest, from the playtest? Worship Erastil, who is, among other things, a farming god, use the scythe instead of a longbow, as the class allows w/o penalties, and then just be intimidating through RP and skills. This obviously will require a drastic change in your character's personality, but it is certainly doable mechanically. I understand if this doesn't work.
Warpriest is worse than just playing a straight cleric or inquisitor though. Changing to Erastil would (maybe) also change your weapon focus, and your character pretty drastically.
Warpriest is worse than just playing a straight cleric or inquisitor though. Changing to Erastil would (maybe) also change your weapon focus, and your character pretty drastically....character with what I want to do. Which is to make a character that intimidates enemies and cuts them down with a scythe....If this is really all you want, have you considered a Warpriest, from the playtest? Worship Erastil, who is, among other things, a farming god, use the scythe instead of a longbow, as the class allows w/o penalties, and then just be intimidating through RP and skills. This obviously will require a drastic change in your character's personality, but it is certainly doable mechanically. I understand if this doesn't work.
No, the revised warpriest is not limited to favored weapon for the weapon focus.
If the OP wants something that could be a "Warrior or Barbarian," then warpriest is bound to be more powerful than an NPC class. Really, warpriest could use any god for intimidate+scythe, I just thought Erastil would have the most reasons to accept a scythe, but some other god (Calistria?) might fit the character's personality better.|
|
If undetectable alignment is too much, you could always consider consulting your DM about the possibility of modifying your armor with a thin sheet of lead along the inside or somesuch, and remain turtled up in full plate or something similarly concealing.
Or Angelskin if you prefer light armour.
BUT the main thing that the Inquisitor would be lacking is the fact that the character I have in mind is a misguided cleric that desires pleasure too fill the holes life has made in her.
I don't see why you couldn't play a misguided inquisitor that desires pleasure to fill the holes life has made in her. There's not a whole lot of conceptual difference between a cleric and an inquisitor - it's mostly a matter of methods. But if you're aware of the option and don't think it fits, that's fine.
If the OP wants something that could be a "Warrior or Barbarian," then warpriest is bound to be more powerful than an NPC class. Really, warpriest could use any god for intimidate+scythe, I just thought Erastil would have the most reasons to accept a scythe, but some other god (Calistria?) might fit the character's personality better.
She doesn't want a warrior or barbarian, she's saying a warrior or barbarian would be mechanically stronger but wouldn't fit the concept, and she's frustrated that the evil aura (and the cost of masking it) is mechanically punishing her for her concept. A worshipper of Erastil or Callistra isn't fitting the concept.
Alright, played the new Season 5 PFS with my cleric last night. It went pretty good, the RP was fun with my Cleric of Urgathoa and even though my friend whom is against an evil character in the party wasn't GM, he didn't complain about her. So, so far so good. Intimidating Minotaurs as level 1 as pretty cool and saved lives!
Actually those acts shouldn't shift alignment instantly. The rate at which they turn you in a direction is really determined by the DM. What makes it even more awkward is that the player could just continue acting like a saint despite having their alignment shifted. A single atonement can change you back too.
I use a lot of over exaggerations, but you understood my point. It does all come down to what the GM feels at the time. I hope most consider the situation and characters drives when making these kinds of decisions. If you are playing a Lawful Good Merciful Healer Cleric and that character is the local doctor of his hometown as well as spiritual guide for young kids, wanting to always make sure he goes out of his way to help anyone, especially children of all races, in need. If he came across a dying child after defending a town from raiding Orcs, and in the fight he had used all his spells. The child is far from saving and is dying very painfully and slowly. Would that character leave the child to die? Would he attempt to comfort him? Would he put him out of his misery? Is that considered evil if the dying resists being mercy killed? What if he doesn't resist and asks for it, is that still evil? It will all come down to what the GM feels he would like to address the action the PC takes. Some may look at it as only black and white, others could call it a gray area. Hell, some might say mercy killing is good and leaving him is evil.
Warpriest is worse than just playing a straight cleric or inquisitor though. Changing to Erastil would (maybe) also change your weapon focus, and your character pretty drastically....character with what I want to do. Which is to make a character that intimidates enemies and cuts them down with a scythe....If this is really all you want, have you considered a Warpriest, from the playtest? Worship Erastil, who is, among other things, a farming god, use the scythe instead of a longbow, as the class allows w/o penalties, and then just be intimidating through RP and skills. This obviously will require a drastic change in your character's personality, but it is certainly doable mechanically. I understand if this doesn't work.
No, the revised warpriest is not limited to favored weapon for the weapon focus.
If the OP wants something that could be a "Warrior or Barbarian," then warpriest is bound to be more powerful than an NPC class. Really, warpriest could use any god for intimidate+scythe, I just thought Erastil would have the most reasons to accept a scythe, but some other god (Calistria?) might fit the character's personality better.Weirdo did a good job at replying to this for me. What I don't want is a warrior or barbarian. Unless you have a really fun character in mind. I see those classes as cookie-cutter; "I want to one shot NPCs and be a badass", always taking power-attack and focus weapon at level 1, max strength, stat characters with no fun RP elements. Not to say there can't be fun ways to do it. It is just that when we played Skull and Shackles we had two arcane casters, three warrior-barbarians, and a divine. The three warrior-barbarians would completely wreck mobs, the divine healed them when they did get low and the two arcane (one being my Ice Witch) ended up being useless. My character ended up just putting ranks into engineer and siege weapons so that ship combat would go smoothly. Only a few times was my character actually needed in dungeons, mostly just detecting magic and buffing. Lets just say it wasn't the most fun campaign.
If the OP wants something that could be a "Warrior or Barbarian," then warpriest is bound to be more powerful than an NPC class. Really, warpriest could use any god for intimidate+scythe, I just thought Erastil would have the most reasons to accept a scythe, but some other god (Calistria?) might fit the character's personality better.She doesn't want a warrior or barbarian, she's saying a warrior or barbarian would be mechanically stronger but wouldn't fit the concept, and she's frustrated that the evil aura (and the cost of masking it) is mechanically punishing her for her concept. A worshipper of Erastil or Callistra isn't fitting the concept.
Yes, thank you. I want my character to have a darker view on what she sees as "pleasure". Calistria does blur with Urgathoa with the aspect of pursuing pleasure, but Calistria isn't dark enough to emphasize the tragic character I want to play.
BUT the main thing that the Inquisitor would be lacking is the fact that the character I have in mind is a misguided cleric that desires pleasure too fill the holes life has made in her.I don't see why you couldn't play a misguided inquisitor that desires pleasure to fill the holes life has made in her. There's not a whole lot of conceptual difference between a cleric and an inquisitor - it's mostly a matter of methods. But if you're aware of the option and don't think it fits, that's fine.
It's not like I can't its just not what I want. An Inquisitor to me would be more fun to play as a Hellsing-esque character, hunting evil in the name of good. SOMETHING LIKE THIS. Also, yes, Inquisitors have the knack of being disconnected from their deities. Taking aspects they believe in to heart and disregarding the rest. With a Cleric, the character is more devote, dedicated, attracted too; worships, and lusts after with spiritual vigor that is both hard to break and reflected in everything they do. My character NEEDS Urgathoa, she wants her favor and her admiration. She needs it as its the only thing she has in her life which has been dedicated to serving her. The only problem is, she is still conflicted subconsciously about her "alignment". It'll be interesting to see how her story will go in the coming adventures. Maybe she can be redeemed, maybe she will fall deeper into the darkness. This is why I play Pathfinder. Its like writing, acting out, a book. You never know what will happen to the characters you grow attached too, hoping for the best but expecting the worst. Loads of fun.
|
The evil aura could be an issue later on not so much with your party really as usually, it depends how much compromise players are willing to make. Some npcs especially outsiders/magical beasts will never ever associate or grant aid to a party working with someone with an evil aura or in sometime worst cases even attack you on sight. Like for example, you will not even get close to a herd of pegasi to ask for help with someone with an evil aura.
Similar to some others, I don't think the character you want to play is Neutral, but I'm going back to your OP:
... all she wants to do is abuse every pleasure life (and the afterlife) have to offer. She isn't aligned evil, and she knows there are lines that can't be crossed (while pesky LG PCs/NPCs are watching) even if they tempt her every step of the way.
Now, I play a True Neutral worshipper of Urgathoa, and I have to say that this seems more like a NE character. Not *strongly* evil-aligned, but more than likely over the dividing line. I suggest embracing that (along with the Champions of Purity text about lesser evils) when you negotiate with do-gooders. Devil you know and all that.
The evil aura could be an issue later on not so much with your party really as usually, it depends how much compromise players are willing to make. Some npcs especially outsiders/magical beasts will never ever associate or grant aid to a party working with someone with an evil aura or in sometime worst cases even attack you on sight. Like for example, you will not even get close to a herd of pegasi to ask for help with someone with an evil aura.
Ah. I didn't think about magical creatures. I guess I would have normally lumped them together with normal NPCs. Thanks, I'll keep that in mind and add it to the list of things to be aware of.
Similar to some others, I don't think the character you want to play is Neutral, but I'm going back to your OP:
... all she wants to do is abuse every pleasure life (and the afterlife) have to offer. She isn't aligned evil, and she knows there are lines that can't be crossed (while pesky LG PCs/NPCs are watching) even if they tempt her every step of the way.Now, I play a True Neutral worshipper of Urgathoa, and I have to say that this seems more like a NE character. Not *strongly* evil-aligned, but more than likely over the dividing line. I suggest embracing that (along with the Champions of Purity text about lesser evils) when you negotiate with do-gooders. Devil you know and all that.
I've said it a few times in other posts, but I do exaggerate, and when I was making this thread I was still in the beginning steps of figuring out how all of this alignment working with evil auras reacted with each other. I've only played one module with this cleric and I think I played her much less extreme them I had first imagined. I want to try this character the way I want her to be, but I also don't want to ruin the game for everyone else. I'm going to be poking and prodding at what my character can get away with. I don't mind if an act is straight evil, but try to balance it out so her alignment doesn't shift and she is taken from me.
Another thing, which probably goes back to the whole black and white aspect of Pathfinder, I understand that there are strictly evil things people can find "pleasure" in like cannibalism or killing people to get off. Those kinds of things my character is aware of but still hesitant to try herself. Now there are plenty of other things that you can get pleasure from, like overindulging in food and drink, getting pleasure from doing nothing and lounging in a bed of silk and feathers, or more extreme things like self-inflicted pain or abusing drugs or magic. Just throwing examples out there.Its not like the abuse of EVERYTHING you can get pleasure from is evil. Urgathoa is all about living to get the most pleasure you can while you are alive. Though including vile acts like desecrating bodies to bask in the still warm innards of your freshest kill, but not excluding lazing around on your couch while chin deep in a bowl of ice cream while you watch hours of anime. People have different likes and dislikes. Say your character whom you believe more neutral likes stamp collecting and wine. You are probably never without a glass of the stuff as you venture the entirety of markets for the one stamp you still have yet to find from the year XXXX with the special printing of Arodan punching Asmodeus in the nads. Your character is probably having the time of his life, ignoring the rest of the world while spending all day drinking stopping to eat from the nearby eateries garbage of recently tossed out pork. Who cares if it may be a little rotten, the Pallid Princess has strengthened your stomach to resist diseases anyway. Oh boy, you just can't imagine life any different. The thought of having to die one day and no longer enjoy free pork, wine and your stamps just makes you want to cry right then and there. But that's why you turned to Urgathoa. There may be others out there like you whom love stamps that can help you along to make sure you get the most, no more than that, above and beyond the worldly pleasures from these stamps and this wine. Your life is devoted to this, nay, your existence! It doesn't have to stop just because you have been released from your mortal coil. Urgathoa has proven it is possible to collect stamps even after life! Imagine, never having to stop collecting stamps or drinking wine. You can forever fill those pages of your collection books and drink every kind of wine from around the Inner Sea, years, hundreds of years, even after you have died. Doesn't that sound exciting? Doesn't that sound like it is what you believe you were put here to do?
Urgathoa has indeed chosen you while you were still in your mother's womb. May the Pallid Princess forever, after death, lead you down the true path of pleasure, of existence!
Urgathoa is labeled evil because she does like, and enforces even the most disguising and vile "pleasures" you can imagine. She also is the bringer of undead, as she was the first to escape Pharasma's gates to continue to enjoy the pleasures of the world even after death. So it is the aspiration of her followers to want to eventually die, but continue to exist and sate their lusts as undead beings.
I've gone over this with my friend (the one whom made me want to post this thread to prove that even evil aura'd clerics can still be played without being a detriment), during WotR which he is GM of. A totally different topic, but it is relevant, I think.
In Wrath of the Righteous, I play a Holy Tactician Paladin of Iomadae. In her character background (which we rolled) she was a mass murderer. Now, not of normal women and children, but she raided an underground child slave circuit and cut down every evil being, not giving them a chance to surrender. I play her with this motto; Evil is an incurable disease that can only be purged from the world by her sword. Now, Iomadae teaches that:
"She would rather convince evildoers to surrender
their arms in honorable surrender than cut them down in
the midst of battle, but she is fearless and willing to fight
for what she believes in."
Being left to interpretation, surrender is indeed an option for evil. However, being fearless in displaying your beliefs and willing to fight is also in her favor.
"She does not deal with
evil deities or fiends of any status..."
Giving evil an option to surrender is to offer them a deal, to let them live if they change their ways. Again, being left to interpenetration as is anything dealing with any beliefs. Which, from my characters point of view, she is within her rights as a Paladin of Iomadae to strike down obviously evil enemies. Evil aligned people that have been dealing with demons, demons themselves, evil brothers of anti-paladins, or child slave traders.
Now, would my overzealous Paladin pick out my cleric in a crowd and attempt to kill her? No, well not without witnessing evil acts. She would definitely approach her and demand she leave or keep an eye on her given the circumstances. But that is just my WotR Paladin, because she has the background and personality to make that a valid approach.I have another Paladin from Carrion Crown whom worked with Dhampir, Werewolves, and clerics of Pharasma. If she were to detect my Cleric, she wouldn't give it a second thought and kept on her way to wherever. Mindful of the evil yes, but unless they were threatening the people around at that time then she wouldn't care.
Its all about characters and how they are played. The GM also has a big hand in how your character is influence because they control the world around them.
tl;dr Not everything should be Black and White, play your characters how you want them to be played, interpretation of rules, texts, conditions can be different, but that's the fun in it.
Late in the conversation...
I think neutral clerics of evil deities fall into two styles of "defense" when dealing with paladins.
1st: Denial/evasion of any evil accusations. This could be spells to conceal the aura, Bluff, or just a stealth skill to stay out of sight. Idea is to try hard to avoid the situation. You could also point out the inaccuracy of the detect alignment ability (either via bluff or explain about the spell "misdirection")
2nd: Direct confrontation. This could mean combat, but doesn't have to. Diplomacy regarding "the injustice of their discrimination of auras" comes to mind. You could try honesty and see what happens.
Personally, I don't really think paladins are played as forces of "good" very often. They seem more concerned with destroying evil and imprisoning chaos, than they are focused on their lawful or good nature.
Attacking a person, any person, just because their aura is a special color, doesn't really strike me as a "good" action.
I will note that if you want a more easy time with an evil diety for a neutral character, the Inquisitor has the "infiltrator" archetype in ultimate magic, which is specifically designed for hiding auras. The level 1 ability of that archetype allows you to pick how your alignment shows up for detect alignment spells.
One thing to keep in mind about neutral clerics of evil gods is that they will often do evil deeds. Clerics are the servants of a deity not the other way around. This means that the deity will be using the cleric to further the deity’s agenda. If that deity is evil then the agenda will also probably be evil. They may not be doing the evil act for their own enjoyment, but they will do them nonetheless. Any good character able to detect evil will not trust someone who detects evil. They may not automatically attack them, but they will be watched and never trusted no matter what they do.
Detecting evil is like finding out the person is an agent of a hostile forging power.
Minor tech detail. Even though she has a "powerful" evil aura, she is not herself evil.
Smite wouldn't work.
That would either convince the Paladin to stop attacking, or just confuse the poor thing.
I'm thinking that some long winded (Bluff) explanation where your cleric describes the effects of the misdirection spell and how a witch cursed you with it permanently. You'd need the direct approach, so no hiding, just confront the paladin and give them a "heads up" about your curse. If you can get this going before they use detect evil, should really help. Idea is to show that you respect their abilities and station and know they are valuable to the community and that your pitiable situation causes you to be the subject of constant inquisition (all bluffs...).
You would need a evil god that didn't mind lying about your diety.
One thing to keep in mind about neutral clerics of evil gods is that they will often do evil deeds. Clerics are the servants of a deity not the other way around. This means that the deity will be using the cleric to further the deity’s agenda. If that deity is evil then the agenda will also probably be evil. They may not be doing the evil act for their own enjoyment, but they will do them nonetheless. Any good character able to detect evil will not trust someone who detects evil. They may not automatically attack them, but they will be watched and never trusted no matter what they do.
Detecting evil is like finding out the person is an agent of a hostile forging power.
Certainly seems like a variant on racial profiling. Judge them not on their actions, but based on past statistics for those you've decided are similar. The sort of attitude I'd expect from lawful neutral (...which is the alignment I play).
In regards to classes with detect evil, I've always thought the bigger fear with that one is that the "good" class would start trying to convert the non-believer. I've always considered the paladin's limit on associating with evil characters to be sort of counter the concept of them being religious.
If lawful good, the paladin should consider neutral clerics of evil dieties to be misguided individuals who need to be shown the value of good. If they commit evil acts in the presence of the paladin, all bets are off, but until then, Paladins, being good alignment, need to give evil the benefit of the doubt.
A paladin with ranks in spellcraft should already know about the misdirection spell and others that can alter auras. They should be taking this into account when detecting evil.
One thing to keep in mind about neutral clerics of evil gods is that they will often do evil deeds. Clerics are the servants of a deity not the other way around. This means that the deity will be using the cleric to further the deity’s agenda. If that deity is evil then the agenda will also probably be evil. They may not be doing the evil act for their own enjoyment, but they will do them nonetheless. Any good character able to detect evil will not trust someone who detects evil. They may not automatically attack them, but they will be watched and never trusted no matter what they do.
Detecting evil is like finding out the person is an agent of a hostile forging power.
Certainly seems like a variant on racial profiling. Judge them not on their actions, but based on past statistics for those you've decided are similar. The sort of attitude I'd expect from lawful neutral (...which is the alignment I play).
In regards to classes with detect evil, I've always thought the bigger fear with that one is that the "good" class would start trying to convert the non-believer. I've always considered the paladin's limit on associating with evil characters to be sort of counter the concept of them being religious.
If lawful good, the paladin should consider neutral clerics of evil dieties to be misguided individuals who need to be...
This is more judging someone based on the fact they are members of an evil organization. While they themselves may or may not be evil their superiors (Deity) are in fact evil. This would be more like judging a Nazi prison guard to be evil based on Hitler’s actions. The only time I have seen this come up is when someone really wants to play an evil character, but due to campaign, or group reasons cannot. If you want to play an evil character you should do so. If the GM or group does not want evil characters come up with another character or find a different group.
When you knowing regularly aid and support an evil character or organization you are just as guilty as a full member. If I am working for the Mafia in a desk job and I know for a fact my “Boss” is murdering people I am no better than he is.
This is more judging someone based on the fact they are members of an evil organization. While they themselves may or may not be evil their superiors (Deity) are in fact evil. This would be more like judging a Nazi prison guard to be evil based on Hitler’s actions. The only time I have seen this come up is when someone really wants to play an evil character, but due to campaign, or group reasons cannot. If you want to play an evil character you should do so. If the GM or group does not want evil characters come up with another character or find a different group.
When you knowing regularly...
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the spell. Does detect evil actually inform the paladin which diety or organization a detected target is of, or just it just inform them about the strength of their evil aura?
I'm under the impression that they just get an aura, and that the aura is stronger for clerics. It doesn't inform the detecting character that they are a cleric, just that they have an unusually strong evil aura, right?
Everything after that is a matter the paladin's ability to discern why the evil aura radiates from the target, right?
PS: Please take Nazis out of your list of examples. They just derail threads when used as examples.
This is about more than just the spell. This is about a person serving a EVIL organization or creature. Assuming the cleric is a cleric to a specific god, which is what we are talking about. If the cleric is serving an [b]Evil[\b] deity he is furthering the spread of [b]Evil[\b].
To have an evil aura you either have to be a powerful evil person, or be a direct servant of evil. You may not be directly involved with actively promoting evil, but your efforts are helping those that are.
If the Nazi analogy bothers you it should. They were one of the most evil organizations on the face of the earth. Anyone who knowingly supported them is equally responsible for their crimes. The German citizens who ignored the signs or were otherwise unaware of what was happening might deserve a break. But those that were part of the organization deserve no mercy.