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I thought it looked simple enough. Postpones poison for a set time period, then apply effects later.

In game, it became very fuzzy.

Spider shows up and bites a character. They get poisoned. Spider disappears. Druid casts a communal delay poison. Spider shows up again and bites a different character.

Pretty clear how this affects the already poisoned character. Some debate on how this applies to a non-poisoned character. Might just be using the poison rules wrong.

DM says newly poisoned character rolls fort save to see if they contract the poison. Seems iffy, as character is presently immune to poison as per the delay poison spell. Character passed the fort save and the spider died shortly after, so it didn't come up.

If character failed the fort save, what happens? Was taking the fort save to see if the PC contracts it the correct thing to do? How does delay poison interact with poison increased DCs for multiple doses?

Thank you. It looked to me like they could stack, just wanted to see if there was any reason they could not. Yes, I did note the conflict that would create on some of those effects, but was asking mostly for the alteration to natural weapons. Otherwise, animals are hard pressed to get past DR.

True, but they aren't helpless. Remember that even if the animal can't get by DR, they can still combat maneuver to allow the rest of the party to more easily damage them. You might need a "speak with animals" ability to pull this off, but many of the summoned animals have ways to make impressive use of the various combat maneuvers. Flanking is always an impressive use of a summoned animal.

I will also note that being able to summon 1d4+1 of an earlier form of the spell can be very impressive. This is especially true on summoned animals with poison abilities, as the DC for poison increases with each dose.

With all the brainstorming in this thread, this archetype just got a LOT more interesting! I don't mind the necro of this thread at all.

Can the Starlight/Moonlight/Sunlight Summons stack? Can summoned creatures have 2 or all 3 of them active at once?

I understand them to stack. That said, they don't always stack well and very importantly, there isn't any language to suggest that they are optional.

In example, Moonlight and Sunlight summons both make your summoned creatures shed light as per the light spell. This could be useful if you need a torch, but it could also be a major issue if stealth was a concern.

I have noted a pretty awesome combination between Starlight Summons and visual obscuration effects, like the fog spell. Starlight grants blind fight, so your summoned creatures could be pretty effective if the opponent didn't know where they were. That said, if you also had MoonLight summons, the shedding of light would negate most of the surprise potential with your creatures fighting in the fog.

Anyway, I don't see having to dismiss a summoned non-combat companion as a major loss to summoning high level creatures.

In terms of level advancement, a 9th level summoner/first world summoner with 20 charisma (2 normal ability point increases on a 18 Cha character) is able to cast Summon Monster/Nature's Ally V at a rate of 8 times per day, with both reduced casting time and increased duration. For comparison, a 9th level conjurer with 20 intelligence is only able to cast summon monster 3 times per day.

It just goes back to reinforcing the First World Summoner as having a non-combat Eidolon.

For sake of arguement, spreading disease doesn't need to be this grand attempt to wipe out all life.

Could be as simple as knowing you have a disease and enjoying yourself in activities that put others at risk. Like coming to work with the flu...

Anyway, on that earlier topic of alignment, I've been thinking on it more. I think there's a confusion between good on a person by person basis, and good as it applies to the world as a universal standard.

Personally, I think good is a person by person basis. It's their individual actions, with their motives known, which constitute good or evil.

As for organizations, I've personally found that most organizations are not as united in their ideals as is often presented.

In church, for example, I've certainly encountered people that seemed to be present for reasons mostly unrelated to the religion. I met one who seemed to be there for attraction to the Pastor, another was lonely, and another seemed to be their for moral support to their spouse. I have meet some in church which actually seem to be religious, too, but even among those, there are dramatically differing viewpoints on how certain religious teachings are supposed to be understood.

I can't imagine Pathfinder regions are much different.

I don't like the universal standard approach, but I do understand the concept. I suppose if looking for a black and white reality, you could go with a universal standard to define alignments, rather than individual actions or motives. I will assert that a game handled in this matter ceases to be about good and evil, and would be more accurately described as protagonist and antagonist, as the black and white reality doesn't require good or evil motive/actions, just results in how affects society as a whole.

Not quite a god, but Jubilex allows worshipers despite being specifically uninterested in most of the workings of the world - to the point where there is a noted belief regarding if Jubilex is even aware it has followers.

You could still make a cleric for a "god" like this.

I do think the lawful deities are more keen on shows of worship, like going to church and organized religion.

No Deity is going to grant spells to someone who does not advance their cause. If I have a player running a cleric who routinely ignores the teaching of his deity he becomes an ex cleric. Admittedly this is a very grey area and it is up to the GM to make the call.

You describe it like the diety is a bookkeeper, carefully making sure each spell is used for an intended purpose. You could be right, but I don't think that level of overbearing scrutiny is intended in the pathfinder rules.

Doubled checking that Fast Movement(ex) from the animal companion archetype "racer" applies to non-land movement types? I only ask because Fast Movement(ex) on a barbarian or monk has been ruled to not apply to swim or climb speeds.

Not supporting his church would be the violation not the alignment step. Also in the case of Urgathoa they are supposed to be helping people become undead. That is an evil act according to the rules.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

But will they continue to grant spells to followers that don't help their church? And is helping an evil church an evil act?

Yes, and no, respectively. Cafeteria Asmodeanism is explicitly permitted by RAW.

I think you are confusing clerics with parishioners. There should be a difference between the two.

To both Mysterious Stranger and Durngrun Stonebreaker, remember that the church itself is not the diety. The diety is the one granting powers, not the church.

You are the one who keeps bringing up paladins and detect evil. What I am talking about is that the fact that a cleric are servants of their deity. They like paladins can lose their status if they violate the teachings of their god.

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).

You are right about one thing that the spell detects evil alone is not enough to justify a paladin from attacking there are too many ways it can be fooled. You could even have a Lawful Evil cleric of a lawful neutral deity that detects as both lawful and evil. The Lawful aura would of course be stronger than the evil.

Some deities don’t care about part of the alignment grid. A worshiper of a NG good is ok with both lawful good, neutral good and chaotic good worshipers. They will even welcome the rare true neutral character who wants to follow them. This character will be under a tremendous pressure to become good. If the worshiper is a cleric it is going to be even harder. I don’t see how a cleric of a NG god can honestly preach that you should help others out of the goodness of your heart and not slowly shift alignment.

The same is true for a NE deity. If your religion practices sacrifice of unwilling sentient creatures it is going to be very hard to remain true neutral. The deity in question is the goddess of undead and disease. Her priests regularly engage in mass murder, forced cannibalism, and spreading of disease. This is a goddess dedicated to evil, not a borderline case.

Well, I was responding to the OP's issue with campaign in the good-neutral range featuring a neutral cleric and how PC or NPCs would respond to one. At one point, the detect evil bit came in and that's what I was addressing. Looks like we agree on this point. I wasn't really addressing the specfic diety.

How am I being a hypocrite about the Nazi?

I did warn you that nazis derail conversations.

The issue is that in order to destroy evil entirely, many historical (and fictional) groups attempt to remove it based some formulated system to detect and destroy evil. The Nazis are one such group.

Their system determined that the source of evil was related to genetics, and the idea was that if the "impure" elements were removed, we'd have a "heaven on earth" type existance. This mindset wasn't uncommon in europe and in the united states, prior to our entry in WW2.

Having a system like this, and being a ordered society, the "nazis as a whole" are Lawful. Their believe that evil roots to genetics isn't evil, nor is their system to detect it - those are both in the Lawful neutral area. It's their methods of execution that make the organization Evil, as we saw with the holocaust. Again, strict alignments.

At this point, I'll make it clear that I'm not a nazi, I don't support them or what they did. I also think their formula was doomed to fail, even if they had won WW2, I just don't think you could use that much evil and destruction and create something good out of it. I also don't think genetics affect a person's potential to do/be evil.

Anyway, back to how you are being a hypocrite. You suggest that it's okay to kill off people because they are nazis, and that killing off nazis is okay because nazis are evil. This is a system of removing evil via destruction. It is lawful evil and exactly the problem the nazis presented to the world. That's why it's hypocrisy.

I suppose the big gain is that unicorn, which you can summon 1d4+1 with a 6th level version. This buffs from superior summons to 1d4+1 and can further be bolstered by a maximized rod to summon 6 of them with a single use. The limitation on summons pertains to uses of the summoned spell, not to how many creatures are summoned with it.

The summon good monster feat allows a unicorn at SNA5, instead of the SNA4 via this archetype. This archetype also doesn't require a good alignment, and the alignment becomes yours, so you could potentially summon evil alignment unicorns with this archetype.

This is about more than just the spell. This is about a person serving a EVIL organization or creature. Assuming the cleric is a cleric to a specific god, which is what we are talking about. If the cleric is serving an [b]Evil[\b] deity he is furthering the spread of [b]Evil[\b].

To have an evil aura you either have to be a powerful evil person, or be a direct servant of evil. You may not be directly involved with actively promoting evil, but your efforts are helping those that are.

I think I've covered this one already. You don't have to be evil, or even part of an evil organization/religion, to have an evil aura. The level 2 sorcerer/wizard Misdirection spell can allow a creature to falsely register as a different alignment. There are other spells and abilities for this too.

The aura itself does not inform the detector if the cleric is a cleric, just how strong their aura is.

Determining if they are a cleric would be related to bluff and disguise on the part of the cleric. Some evil deities insist on very clear shows of worship, so this might just be a simple knowledge: religion check on the paladin's part to recognize the religion. Others may be harder to discern.

You may not be directly involved with actively promoting evil, but your efforts are helping those that are.

This last bit gets me, though. If indirect support of evil constitutes some sort of persecution on behalf of a Paladin, those paladins would have to jail every merchant that ever provided even the smallest of services to an evil cleric or diety.

As for Nazis, you're being a hypocrite. The Nazis "decided" certain groups were evil, rounded them up, and enslaved/murdered them. That is lawful evil.

A Paladin that decides anything with an aura via detect evil, must be persecuted, rounded up, and murdered/destroyed, is no different. That is a lawful evil character.

This is more judging someone based on the fact they are members of an evil organization. While they themselves may or may not be evil their superiors (Deity) are in fact evil. This would be more like judging a Nazi prison guard to be evil based on Hitler’s actions. The only time I have seen this come up is when someone really wants to play an evil character, but due to campaign, or group reasons cannot. If you want to play an evil character you should do so. If the GM or group does not want evil characters come up with another character or find a different group.

When you knowing regularly...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the spell. Does detect evil actually inform the paladin which diety or organization a detected target is of, or just it just inform them about the strength of their evil aura?

I'm under the impression that they just get an aura, and that the aura is stronger for clerics. It doesn't inform the detecting character that they are a cleric, just that they have an unusually strong evil aura, right?

Everything after that is a matter the paladin's ability to discern why the evil aura radiates from the target, right?

PS: Please take Nazis out of your list of examples. They just derail threads when used as examples.

Very few situations where the first worlder would be a better archetype.

1st, advantages of the class (in no order)

-Very Expanded list of Eidolon Class skills
-Access to non-aligned Damage Reduction
-Not an outsider (This is good if opponents or allies have strong abilities against outsiders specifically).
-Fixed good will and reflex (No change for serpentine, but affects others)
-Summoned Nature's ally creature list (if these appeal more...)

Disadvantages
-Lower Base HD.
-Reduced BAB.
-Fey (This is bad if opponents or allies have strong abilities against fey specifically).
-Fixed Bad Fort (No change for serpentine, but affects others)
-Summoned Nature's ally creature list (if these appeal less...)

2nd, What this means.

Expanded class skills adds potential for a high Int eidolon, or just a dedicated aid-action eidolon.

The outsider-fey switch up seems like it would depend on the party and campaign more than anything. I will note that anti-outsider builds and archetypes seem much more common than anti-fey builds and archetypes. You are also switching the Knowledge skill that an opponent would need to learn about your eidolon (Nature instead of planes).

Fixed saves do two things. First, you could use to spam a particular save, like reflex, on a bipedal eidolon. The other option, would be to increase Con, which would make a more rounded eidolon, as you'd increase your fort - this would also increase your HP, which would remove some or all of the loss from the lowered die type. I will note that reflex is the save that goes with our eidolon Evasion ability and will is the save that is very commonly required for spells that remove extraplanar enemies from this plane (like dismissal). Having these as fixed saves is not a weak point for the eidolon.

Lowered die size. Not good for tank and DPS eidolons, no real loss if the eidolon is designed for a less combat role (like healing). Technially, the loss is 2 HP per HD (assuming the non-rolling method). If you go with the increased Con, as suggested for a more rounded character, you can regain this HP loss for 2 evolution points and the free ability increase at 5th level. I do think the lowered die size isn't really that bad as a penalty, as the stock eidolon already has less HD than an animal companion. I think if looking for HP soaking pets, the summoner really isn't your class...

Reduced BAB. This is a bad thing, no question. Granted, if eidolon isn't designed for a combat role, like with a focus on non-attack spells or skills, you might not notice the loss.

Expanded Summons of nature's ally and switching of summoned nature's ally from summoned monster. Huge difference in list of summon-able creatures. I will note that both the unicorn and Nymph have access to cure spells, so there is some very solid potential for a summoner with a healing role. Maximized level 6 summon natures ally for 5 unicorns (6 with superior summoning), each with 3 uses of cure light and one cure moderate - that's a pretty impressive curing ability.

3rd, summary. I think the First World Summoner is a dedicated Healer/Support caster with a healer/support eidolon.

4th, Combinations. The Oread Shaitan Binder Archetype fits perfectly with this one. Buff charisma, then get eidolon with free magic evolutions to get cure spells. Makes for a Healer summoner. The -2 racial Cha isn't as devastating if going a healer route, as your spells are less likely to meet resistance. I will suggest a small eidolon, as the bonus AC and attack rolls will very much aid the fey eidolon.

I'm thinking that some long winded (Bluff) explanation where your cleric describes the effects of the misdirection spell and how a witch cursed you with it permanently. You'd need the direct approach, so no hiding, just confront the paladin and give them a "heads up" about your curse. If you can get this going before they use detect evil, should really help. Idea is to show that you respect their abilities and station and know they are valuable to the community and that your pitiable situation causes you to be the subject of constant inquisition (all bluffs...).

You would need a evil god that didn't mind lying about your diety.

One thing to keep in mind about neutral clerics of evil gods is that they will often do evil deeds. Clerics are the servants of a deity not the other way around. This means that the deity will be using the cleric to further the deity’s agenda. If that deity is evil then the agenda will also probably be evil. They may not be doing the evil act for their own enjoyment, but they will do them nonetheless. Any good character able to detect evil will not trust someone who detects evil. They may not automatically attack them, but they will be watched and never trusted no matter what they do.

Detecting evil is like finding out the person is an agent of a hostile forging power.

Certainly seems like a variant on racial profiling. Judge them not on their actions, but based on past statistics for those you've decided are similar. The sort of attitude I'd expect from lawful neutral (...which is the alignment I play).

In regards to classes with detect evil, I've always thought the bigger fear with that one is that the "good" class would start trying to convert the non-believer. I've always considered the paladin's limit on associating with evil characters to be sort of counter the concept of them being religious.

If lawful good, the paladin should consider neutral clerics of evil dieties to be misguided individuals who need to be shown the value of good. If they commit evil acts in the presence of the paladin, all bets are off, but until then, Paladins, being good alignment, need to give evil the benefit of the doubt.

A paladin with ranks in spellcraft should already know about the misdirection spell and others that can alter auras. They should be taking this into account when detecting evil.

Related, if using pinpoint poisoner, does the attack count as an unarmed strike, blowgun, or melee touch for the purposes of weapon focus feats?

I'm working on a Grippli character that uses a blowgun. Could I use this to apply blowgun weapon focus and related to the melee touch using the blowgun darts?

Just asking.

Late in the conversation...

I think neutral clerics of evil deities fall into two styles of "defense" when dealing with paladins.

1st: Denial/evasion of any evil accusations. This could be spells to conceal the aura, Bluff, or just a stealth skill to stay out of sight. Idea is to try hard to avoid the situation. You could also point out the inaccuracy of the detect alignment ability (either via bluff or explain about the spell "misdirection")

2nd: Direct confrontation. This could mean combat, but doesn't have to. Diplomacy regarding "the injustice of their discrimination of auras" comes to mind. You could try honesty and see what happens.

Personally, I don't really think paladins are played as forces of "good" very often. They seem more concerned with destroying evil and imprisoning chaos, than they are focused on their lawful or good nature.

Attacking a person, any person, just because their aura is a special color, doesn't really strike me as a "good" action.

I will note that if you want a more easy time with an evil diety for a neutral character, the Inquisitor has the "infiltrator" archetype in ultimate magic, which is specifically designed for hiding auras. The level 1 ability of that archetype allows you to pick how your alignment shows up for detect alignment spells.

In regards to swimming in full plate, or just swimming with a weighted vest (resistance training in real life), there are two main factors: 1st, the weight being carried while swimming, and 2nd, the resistance that the shape of the armor/vest makes when you move in the water.

For the first bit, swimming in full plate is no different than swimming with 50lbs of any other gear. For comparision, the bag of holding version 4, weighs 60lbs regardless of how much weight is stored inside. In terms of swimming with weight, carrying version 4 of the bag of holding is harder than swimming in full plate.

For the second bit, the awkward shape of full plate regarding movement resistance is supposed to be covered via the armor check penalty. Armor training skills are supposed to reduce the penalties of moving in armor. Encumbrance penalties are supposed to reflect the weight of the armor in relation to the strength of the character.

I saw mentioned the 1st level fighter with swim 1 and 18 strength. At 18 strength, the fighter has a light load with full plate at 50lbs and 50lbs of additional gear. 18 strength means our fighter can lift 300lbs over his head and 600lbs just off the ground - swimming with 50lbs of "clothing" shouldn't be too surprising.

Anyway, a level 1 fighter with 1 rank in swim, full plate (50lbs), a Survival kit(common, 4lbs) and a great sword(8lbs) slung over his back, with 18pts of strength is looking at a light load with no encumbrance penalty from weight. The armor imposes -6 to his roll, but he's at +4 for having 1 rank in a class skill and +4 for his high strength, so he's testing at +2. That said, the DC to swim in CALM water is 10, so he could still fail.

In regards to sinking, remember that since armor affects speed, it also affects how far you can move. If the DM says your sinking towards the bottom, you'd need to factor in upwards movement in addition to moving forwards while swimming. A move action while swimming is a quarter of your movement speed, so even the dwarf in full plate whose encumbrance isn't reduced by the armor, he's still only moving a single square per movement action (5ft is 1/4th of 20ft). A full plate dwarf sinking at 5ft per turn, is swimming up each turn just to remain in place.

Honestly, it's that low strength rogue that won't give up the heavy plunder that I picture sinking to the bottom...

PS: Normal level 1 fighters can't afford full plate. They start with up to 300 gold for all their gear, with full plate costing 1,500 gold.