Neutral Clerics of Evil Deities


Advice

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Mysterious Stranger wrote:

This is about more than just the spell. This is about a person serving a EVIL organization or creature. Assuming the cleric is a cleric to a specific god, which is what we are talking about. If the cleric is serving an [b]Evil[\b] deity he is furthering the spread of [b]Evil[\b].

To have an evil aura you either have to be a powerful evil person, or be a direct servant of evil. You may not be directly involved with actively promoting evil, but your efforts are helping those that are.

I think I've covered this one already. You don't have to be evil, or even part of an evil organization/religion, to have an evil aura. The level 2 sorcerer/wizard Misdirection spell can allow a creature to falsely register as a different alignment. There are other spells and abilities for this too.

The aura itself does not inform the detector if the cleric is a cleric, just how strong their aura is.

Determining if they are a cleric would be related to bluff and disguise on the part of the cleric. Some evil deities insist on very clear shows of worship, so this might just be a simple knowledge: religion check on the paladin's part to recognize the religion. Others may be harder to discern.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

You may not be directly involved with actively promoting evil, but your efforts are helping those that are.

This last bit gets me, though. If indirect support of evil constitutes some sort of persecution on behalf of a Paladin, those paladins would have to jail every merchant that ever provided even the smallest of services to an evil cleric or diety.

As for Nazis, you're being a hypocrite. The Nazis "decided" certain groups were evil, rounded them up, and enslaved/murdered them. That is lawful evil.

A Paladin that decides anything with an aura via detect evil, must be persecuted, rounded up, and murdered/destroyed, is no different. That is a lawful evil character.


Godwin's law on page 2, good job.

Jokes aside, that behaviour is not limited to Lawful Evil...


You are the one who keeps bringing up paladins and detect evil. What I am talking about is that the fact that a cleric are servants of their deity. They like paladins can lose their status if they violate the teachings of their god.

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).

You are right about one thing that the spell detects evil alone is not enough to justify a paladin from attacking there are too many ways it can be fooled. You could even have a Lawful Evil cleric of a lawful neutral deity that detects as both lawful and evil. The Lawful aura would of course be stronger than the evil.

Some deities don’t care about part of the alignment grid. A worshiper of a NG good is ok with both lawful good, neutral good and chaotic good worshipers. They will even welcome the rare true neutral character who wants to follow them. This character will be under a tremendous pressure to become good. If the worshiper is a cleric it is going to be even harder. I don’t see how a cleric of a NG god can honestly preach that you should help others out of the goodness of your heart and not slowly shift alignment.

The same is true for a NE deity. If your religion practices sacrifice of unwilling sentient creatures it is going to be very hard to remain true neutral. The deity in question is the goddess of undead and disease. Her priests regularly engage in mass murder, forced cannibalism, and spreading of disease. This is a goddess dedicated to evil, not a borderline case.

Like I said if you want to play an evil character that is fine, just be honest about it.

How am I being a hypocrite about the Nazi? I have already said they were the most evil and vile organization mankind has seen. I have also stated that those that knowingly and willing aided them are guilty, not everyone who worked with them. Stop putting words into my mouth.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

You are the one who keeps bringing up paladins and detect evil. What I am talking about is that the fact that a cleric are servants of their deity. They like paladins can lose their status if they violate the teachings of their god.

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).

You are right about one thing that the spell detects evil alone is not enough to justify a paladin from attacking there are too many ways it can be fooled. You could even have a Lawful Evil cleric of a lawful neutral deity that detects as both lawful and evil. The Lawful aura would of course be stronger than the evil.

Some deities don’t care about part of the alignment grid. A worshiper of a NG good is ok with both lawful good, neutral good and chaotic good worshipers. They will even welcome the rare true neutral character who wants to follow them. This character will be under a tremendous pressure to become good. If the worshiper is a cleric it is going to be even harder. I don’t see how a cleric of a NG god can honestly preach that you should help others out of the goodness of your heart and not slowly shift alignment.

The same is true for a NE deity. If your religion practices sacrifice of unwilling sentient creatures it is going to be very hard to remain true neutral. The deity in question is the goddess of undead and disease. Her priests regularly engage in mass murder, forced cannibalism, and spreading of disease. This is a goddess dedicated to evil, not a borderline case.

Well, I was responding to the OP's issue with campaign in the good-neutral range featuring a neutral cleric and how PC or NPCs would respond to one. At one point, the detect evil bit came in and that's what I was addressing. Looks like we agree on this point. I wasn't really addressing the specfic diety.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
How am I being a hypocrite about the Nazi?

I did warn you that nazis derail conversations.

The issue is that in order to destroy evil entirely, many historical (and fictional) groups attempt to remove it based some formulated system to detect and destroy evil. The Nazis are one such group.

Their system determined that the source of evil was related to genetics, and the idea was that if the "impure" elements were removed, we'd have a "heaven on earth" type existance. This mindset wasn't uncommon in europe and in the united states, prior to our entry in WW2.

Having a system like this, and being a ordered society, the "nazis as a whole" are Lawful. Their believe that evil roots to genetics isn't evil, nor is their system to detect it - those are both in the Lawful neutral area. It's their methods of execution that make the organization Evil, as we saw with the holocaust. Again, strict alignments.

At this point, I'll make it clear that I'm not a nazi, I don't support them or what they did. I also think their formula was doomed to fail, even if they had won WW2, I just don't think you could use that much evil and destruction and create something good out of it. I also don't think genetics affect a person's potential to do/be evil.

Anyway, back to how you are being a hypocrite. You suggest that it's okay to kill off people because they are nazis, and that killing off nazis is okay because nazis are evil. This is a system of removing evil via destruction. It is lawful evil and exactly the problem the nazis presented to the world. That's why it's hypocrisy.


The Nazi analogy fails and should be abandoned for a number of reasons, including simple good taste. There's a key difference between Golarion and the real world. In Golarion, good and evil are not matters of opinion, but actual empirical findings about the world.

There makes statements like "you are behaving evilly by ruthlessly destroying evil" borderline nonsensical. Moral dilemmas do not exist in Golarion, as we can empirically determine whether or not an act is evil by experiment (just have a paladin attempt the action and see whether or not she falls).


Where do I advocate killing anything? I simply said that someone who knowingly and willingly aids an evil organization is just as guilty as the organization. I have not posted a single post suggesting any kind of punishment or solution to evil. My point has been that anyone who knowingly and willingly serves evil will eventually become evil. RAW it is possible to be a true neutral cleric to an evil god, but my stance is that eventually you are going to cross the line.

When you allow the innocent to be sacrificed for power you are evil at that point. It does not matter if you are the one wielding the knife you still have committed an evil act.

Change the Nazi references to whatever lawful evil god you want and my point is still valid.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
My point has been that anyone who knowingly and willingly serves evil will eventually become evil. RAW it is possible to be a true neutral cleric to an evil god, but my stance is that eventually you are going to cross the line.

I'd be much more impressed by your stance if I actually found it in any way credible. Unfortunately, I know far too many "cafeteria Catholics" who are happy picking and choosing among the teachings of their church, including a number of actual clergy.

A neutral cleric of an evil god does not need to practice evil or even to preach it. He can simply ignore that part, as the 21% of Catholics who are divorced, or the 98% of Catholic women who use birth control do.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:


When you allow the innocent to be sacrificed for power you are evil at that point. It does not matter if you are the one wielding the knife you still have committed an evil act.

Actually, I would say that passively allowing evil acts to be done is not evil, but neutral, and something that a lot of good people indulge in.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
My point has been that anyone who knowingly and willingly serves evil will eventually become evil. RAW it is possible to be a true neutral cleric to an evil god, but my stance is that eventually you are going to cross the line.

I'd be much more impressed by your stance if I actually found it in any way credible. Unfortunately, I know far too many "cafeteria Catholics" who are happy picking and choosing among the teachings of their church, including a number of actual clergy.

A neutral cleric of an evil god does not need to practice evil or even to preach it. He can simply ignore that part, as the 21% of Catholics who are divorced, or the 98% of Catholic women who use birth control do.

How many of those Catholics can cast spells granted to them by God?


If the DM is uncomfortable with you playing this character could you not just make another character?


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
My point has been that anyone who knowingly and willingly serves evil will eventually become evil. RAW it is possible to be a true neutral cleric to an evil god, but my stance is that eventually you are going to cross the line.

I'd be much more impressed by your stance if I actually found it in any way credible. Unfortunately, I know far too many "cafeteria Catholics" who are happy picking and choosing among the teachings of their church, including a number of actual clergy.

A neutral cleric of an evil god does not need to practice evil or even to preach it. He can simply ignore that part, as the 21% of Catholics who are divorced, or the 98% of Catholic women who use birth control do.

How many of those Catholics can cast spells granted to them by God?

All of the clergy, as the act of transubstantiation is technically a miracle. And even the laypeople can offer a blessing.

It's simply more subtle than a flame strike.

In the world of Golarion, of course, gods will still by RAW grant spells to followers that do not match their alignment, so there's no implication that a neutral priest of an evil god must drift towards evil. Cafeteria Asmodeanism is explicitly permitted in Pathfinder.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
My point has been that anyone who knowingly and willingly serves evil will eventually become evil. RAW it is possible to be a true neutral cleric to an evil god, but my stance is that eventually you are going to cross the line.

I'd be much more impressed by your stance if I actually found it in any way credible. Unfortunately, I know far too many "cafeteria Catholics" who are happy picking and choosing among the teachings of their church, including a number of actual clergy.

A neutral cleric of an evil god does not need to practice evil or even to preach it. He can simply ignore that part, as the 21% of Catholics who are divorced, or the 98% of Catholic women who use birth control do.

How many of those Catholics can cast spells granted to them by God?

All of the clergy, as the act of transubstantiation is technically a miracle. And even the laypeople can offer a blessing.

It's simply more subtle than a flame strike.

In the world of Golarion, of course, gods will still by RAW grant spells to followers that do not match their alignment, so there's no implication that a neutral priest of an evil god must drift towards evil. Cafeteria Asmodeanism is explicitly permitted in Pathfinder.

But will they continue to grant spells to followers that don't help their church? And is helping an evil church an evil act?


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
But will they continue to grant spells to followers that don't help their church? And is helping an evil church an evil act?

Yes, and no, respectively. Cafeteria Asmodeanism is explicitly permitted by RAW.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
But will they continue to grant spells to followers that don't help their church? And is helping an evil church an evil act?
Yes, and no, respectively.

I disagree


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
But will they continue to grant spells to followers that don't help their church? And is helping an evil church an evil act?
Yes, and no, respectively. Cafeteria Asmodeanism is explicitly permitted by RAW.

I think you are confusing clerics with parishioners. There should be a difference between the two.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
But will they continue to grant spells to followers that don't help their church? And is helping an evil church an evil act?
Yes, and no, respectively.
I disagree

I am aware of that. Unfortunately, you disagree with the rules as well, as Cafeterian Asmodeanism is explicitly permitted in Pathfinder.

From the rules on clerics: A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features. Merely maintaining an alignment different from that of her god is not a gross violation of the code of conduct, or the off-by-one-step rule wouldn't exist in the first place.

I'm sorry that you don't like how the rules of Pathfinder were written.....


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
But will they continue to grant spells to followers that don't help their church? And is helping an evil church an evil act?
Yes, and no, respectively. Cafeteria Asmodeanism is explicitly permitted by RAW.
I think you are confusing clerics with parishioners. There should be a difference between the two.

There is. Parishioners have no behavioral restrictions whatsoever; there's nothing wrong with a CG follower of Asmodeus.


There is a big difference between a worshiper and a cleric. A worshiper can be of any alignment including a diametrically opposed alignment. The cleric on the other hand has to stay within one step of his deity or he becomes an ex cleric. This can also happen if he violates the teachings of his deity.

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).

While falling from grace is not as common for a cleric as it is a paladin it is still part of the class. A cleric who does not help his church in my opinion becomes an ex cleric.

To me this is a roleplaying issue. I have seen to many people who want to play a cleric as just another caster that happens to be able to wear armor. I have also seen too many players play a supposedly neutral cleric of an evil god, but instead of remaining neutral they are outright evil. I am not saying it is impossible to remain neutral while worshiping an evil god, just it is very difficult. Also some deities have more flexibility in this Asmodeus is a good example of this.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
There is a big difference between a worshiper and a cleric. A worshiper can be of any alignment including a diametrically opposed alignment. The cleric on the other hand has to stay within one step of his deity or he becomes an ex cleric. This can also happen if he violates the teachings of his deity.

If he grossly violates the teachings of his deity. Merely being one step away is clearly not a gross violation.


Not supporting his church would be the violation not the alignment step. Also in the case of Urgathoa they are supposed to be helping people become undead. That is an evil act according to the rules.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
No supporting his church would be the violation not the alignment step.

Show me any indication that that's a gross violation.

Quote:


Also in the case of Urgathoa they are supposed to be helping people become undead. That is an evil act according to the rules.

And, as an appropriately Cafeteria Urgathoan, I ignore that as is explicitly permitted by rule (since I can be a neutral cleric of Urgathoa).

I don't have to do everything the god commands. This is explicit in the rules. Only for gross violations will I lose my spell-casting ability, such as for performing acts that are too good for Urgathoa.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Not supporting his church would be the violation not the alignment step. Also in the case of Urgathoa they are supposed to be helping people become undead. That is an evil act according to the rules.
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
But will they continue to grant spells to followers that don't help their church? And is helping an evil church an evil act?
Yes, and no, respectively. Cafeteria Asmodeanism is explicitly permitted by RAW.
I think you are confusing clerics with parishioners. There should be a difference between the two.

To both Mysterious Stranger and Durngrun Stonebreaker, remember that the church itself is not the diety. The diety is the one granting powers, not the church.


If you can walk the razors edge more power to you. But when you start doing more evil deeds than good, or do deeds good enough to anger your deity you become an ex cleric. This is the same for any deity. If you are a cleric of Iomedae and start acting dishonorable you will also become an ex cleric.

No Deity is going to grant spells to someone who does not advance their cause. If I have a player running a cleric who routinely ignores the teaching of his deity he becomes an ex cleric. Admittedly this is a very grey area and it is up to the GM to make the call.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:


No Deity is going to grant spells to someone who does not advance their cause.

So, apparently the word "grossly" has no meaning to you?


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
No Deity is going to grant spells to someone who does not advance their cause. If I have a player running a cleric who routinely ignores the teaching of his deity he becomes an ex cleric. Admittedly this is a very grey area and it is up to the GM to make the call.

You describe it like the diety is a bookkeeper, carefully making sure each spell is used for an intended purpose. You could be right, but I don't think that level of overbearing scrutiny is intended in the pathfinder rules.


Since the rules do not specify the code of conduct required by each deity that leaves it up to the GM. My basic interpretation of this is that the cleric must work to extend the power and influence of the deity. Each deity has a portfolio as long as you are what you are doing is in line with the portfolio you are good. A Cleric of Iomedae who lies, cheats and acts like a coward is not living up to the teaching of his goddess and becomes an ex cleric. The portfolio for Urgathoa is gluttony, disease, and undeath so her clerics need are going to be creating undead, spreading disease and encouraging overindulgence.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MrSin wrote:


That depends heavily on the game. Ideally there are plenty of neutral clerics of evil deities out there,

That's an assumption without any basis behind it. Actually most clerics not being run by players should be in fully in line with their diety's alignment. A neutral cleric of Urgotha that's not a player character, should be as rare as a hen's tooth.

On the other hand, NPC Paladins. (and most PC Paladins) shouldn't be giving the Stare to everyone they meet. It's rude behavior at best.

Dark Archive

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Not supporting his church would be the violation not the alignment step. Also in the case of Urgathoa they are supposed to be helping people become undead. That is an evil act according to the rules.

Not necessarily. Remember that, according to lore, she is also the goddess of gluttony. As a matter of fact it is explicitly stated that she turned to undeath as a means to let the good times continue to roll. A neutral cleric of Urgathoa could be a hedonistic bon-vivant who doesn't care a whit about undeath. Finally, I don't actually think she has a "church" per se; it's like a bunch of scattered cults and solo practitioners.


Not quite a god, but Jubilex allows worshipers despite being specifically uninterested in most of the workings of the world - to the point where there is a noted belief regarding if Jubilex is even aware it has followers.

You could still make a cleric for a "god" like this.

I do think the lawful deities are more keen on shows of worship, like going to church and organized religion.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Since the rules do not specify the code of conduct required by each deity that leaves it up to the GM. My basic interpretation of this is that the cleric must work to extend the power and influence of the deity. Each deity has a portfolio as long as you are what you are doing is in line with the portfolio you are good. A Cleric of Iomedae who lies, cheats and acts like a coward is not living up to the teaching of his goddess and becomes an ex cleric. The portfolio for Urgathoa is gluttony, disease, and undeath so her clerics need are going to be creating undead, spreading disease and encouraging overindulgence.

A very important thing to note here is that it shouldn't be "so her clerics are going to need to be creating undead, spreading disease, and encouraging overindulgence" it SHOULD be "And/OR encouraging overindulgence."

Inner Sea Gods wrote:
Her worshipers care less about spreading her faith than they do about increasing their pleasure in her name. Her faith is illegal in most lands, and shunned in most societies that do not ban it outright. Occasionally, a gluttonous prince or merchant may secretly keep a shrine in the goddess's name, praying for bounties of food, drink, sex, or other physical pleasures. In some lands, desperate folk pray to Urgathoa to relieve symptoms of plague, and necromancers who prove themselves useful by putting undead to rest or controlling them so that they do not harass the living may find a measure of tolerance from mortal communities.

Emphasis mine.

It isn't so strict as "If I worship Urgathoa, then I have to spread gluttony, disease, and undeath." There ARE options, hence why the one-step alignment system is in place.


For sake of arguement, spreading disease doesn't need to be this grand attempt to wipe out all life.

Could be as simple as knowing you have a disease and enjoying yourself in activities that put others at risk. Like coming to work with the flu...

Anyway, on that earlier topic of alignment, I've been thinking on it more. I think there's a confusion between good on a person by person basis, and good as it applies to the world as a universal standard.

Personally, I think good is a person by person basis. It's their individual actions, with their motives known, which constitute good or evil.

As for organizations, I've personally found that most organizations are not as united in their ideals as is often presented.

In church, for example, I've certainly encountered people that seemed to be present for reasons mostly unrelated to the religion. I met one who seemed to be there for attraction to the Pastor, another was lonely, and another seemed to be their for moral support to their spouse. I have meet some in church which actually seem to be religious, too, but even among those, there are dramatically differing viewpoints on how certain religious teachings are supposed to be understood.

I can't imagine Pathfinder regions are much different.

I don't like the universal standard approach, but I do understand the concept. I suppose if looking for a black and white reality, you could go with a universal standard to define alignments, rather than individual actions or motives. I will assert that a game handled in this matter ceases to be about good and evil, and would be more accurately described as protagonist and antagonist, as the black and white reality doesn't require good or evil motive/actions, just results in how affects society as a whole.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Since the rules do not specify the code of conduct required by each deity that leaves it up to the GM. My basic interpretation of this is that the cleric must work to extend the power and influence of the deity. Each deity has a portfolio as long as you are what you are doing is in line with the portfolio you are good. A Cleric of Iomedae who lies, cheats and acts like a coward is not living up to the teaching of his goddess and becomes an ex cleric. The portfolio for Urgathoa is gluttony, disease, and undeath so her clerics need are going to be creating undead, spreading disease and encouraging overindulgence.

That is working backwards from the mechanics of the domains instead of from what is known about the gods and the established clerical practices.

In the wiki on Urgathoa it says

Quote:

Urgathoa(pronounced oor-gah-THO-ah) is the goddess of physical excess, disease, and the undead. She is mostly worshiped by dark necromancers and the undead. Sometimes those wishing to become undead and those who live gluttonous lifestyles make supplication to her. On occasion, folk infected with plagues make offerings to Urgathoa.

. . .

Church of Urgathoa

The churches of Urgathoa are dispersed across Golarion in cell-based cults. Individual groups rarely work together. Activities are usually done under the cover of night, except in lands such as Geb.[3]

Worshipers and Clergy

Urgathoa's priests are primarily composed of clerics and necromancers. They have few responsibilities to uphold, other than helping those who desire undeath, and protection of their own. Understandably, they often are secretive of their religious inclining in public. The priests have been known to compel their enemies to eat their own fallen comrades.[6] The ceremonial clothes of Urgathoa's worshipers are a loose, floor-length, gray tunic, with a white or gray cape. The lower half of the tunic is usually shredded. Most ceremonies involve consuming great amounts of food and drink.[2]

A physical excess focused neutral secret cultic cleric seems not inappropriate.

For creating undead their responsibility is only to aid those who desire undeath. They don't have to spread disease. They don't have to do promotions of Urgathoa or her domains. They do their ceremonial feasts, aid those actively desiring undeath, and protect fellow cultists.

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