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inquisitors make nice pokedexes, with monster lore and various wis-centric stuff.

Grand Lodge

AndIMustMask wrote:
inquisitors make nice pokedexes, with monster lore and various wis-centric stuff.

Well, it's the same deal as the Cloistered Cleric, in that it would work better, if there was a way to use wisdom for knowledge checks.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

By the way, are there any of the ACG Playtest classes that lend themselves to this build?

I'm doing the MoMS2/Kirin style dip with an Investigator. Plenty of skill points to keep up the ranks in all the Knowledges. At level 4 I'm +10+1d6 on all knowledge checks (+2 for identification with Kirin Style and Inspiration). Kirin Path or Eidetic Recollection (investigator talent) will let me take 10 on any knowledge roll eventually.

In combat, Kirin Strike and Focused shot give me a damage boost for the early levels. Eventually Studied Combat, Studied Strike, and Kirin Strike will be her main sources for damage. But she's not meant to be a combat monster.

I may retrain and swap out the monk levels for investigator at higher levels (this is for PFS) to focus more on the level-dependent investigator stuff.

I wouldn't put this in the running for highest knowledge checks. At level 12 she'll be around +23+1d8(+2 to ID). The Mindchemist is hard to beat with the double Int to knowledge checks and I think a good Bard/Oracle of Lore build will blow both out of the water.

But I like the flavor of the Investigator class.

Grand Lodge

Can an Archeologist Bard use Pageant of the Peacock?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Can an Archeologist Bard use Pageant of the Peacock?

Based on this I would say yes:

"Archaeologist’s luck is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance."

The problem here is that you have so few rounds. Earlier you mentioned that Pageant isn't very good for sudden checks as you have to standard action activate it. If you were going standard performance I would disagree because you have so many performance rounds that you could theoretically throw it up anytime anything looks suspicious (it lasts 10 min per use) and still never run out of rounds; with 4 + cha rounds per day period from Archaeologist you have much less breathing room.

Grand Lodge

I am really torn between the Master of Many Styles/Mindchemist, and the Lore Oracle/Bard. Archaeologist or Archivist seem like good archetypes for the latter.


If you wanted to be a full caster primarily you could just take a single level of Bard and take Pageant via feat instead of spell known and go the rest of the way Oracle... Dual Cursed Oracle because after using Misfortune I can't play an Oracle without it. Based on RAI concerning Versatile Performance, it would seem that RAI is that you would be able to use the +20 from the Lore revelation on the Pegeant Bluff check.


Another vote for Mindchemist here. With an intelligence focus a Mindchemist can blow away the bard - though you need to invest a few traits to snag some additional knowledge skills.

Grand Lodge

Peter Stewart wrote:
Another vote for Mindchemist here. With an intelligence focus a Mindchemist can blow away the bard - though you need to invest a few traits to snag some additional knowledge skills.

Well, with that, what race would work best, and which of the two classes, would be the dip?


Throw me solidly in the Bard/Oracle camp. Anything the Mindchemist has to offer will not beat Focused Trance's +20 circumstance bonus and Think On It's +10 competance bonus.

Sidestep Secret will definitely help with AC. That would allow you to be getting Wis and Cha to AC for a passable unarmored build. I wouldn't bother with Lore Keeper. I would keep Cha high but have Int be the primary stat. In the end I would get a stat item for each stat as it will help with your most often used skills.

There is nothing limiting you from taking 3 classes. I would take 2 levels of MoMS and pick up the latter Kirin Style feats. That will help with being able to contribute in combat.

Archivist is good but I think I would rather Archeologist. It is more front loaded and I wouldn't spend a bunch of time on Bard. I would probably stop at 4th for the rogue talent and use it to pickup a style feat via the Ninja trick.

The majority of levels I would put into Oracle of Lore though.

For race I would suggest either Human or Elf. For human it would be either for earlier feats access or for Focused Study for 3x Skill Focus. For Elf it would be for access to Breadth of Knowledge. I think you will get more milage out of human but either is good.

Mindchemist is good but it is front loaded. Any more than 2 levels would be a mistake for this build. Even then, you could pick up that class as well but you are spreading yourself pretty thin.

My recommended build would be MoMS2/Archeologist4/Oracle 14. Alternatively you could take off 2 levels of Oracle in favor of 2 levels of Mindchemist. I wouldn't recommend it as the cognatogen doesn't last long and even though 2xInt to knowlegde is good I would feel like you are missing out on better casting as an Oracle. If the rogue talent from Archeologist at 4th isn't worth it for you then going only to 3rd to pickup an extra Revalation from Orcacle at 15 wouldn't be bad either.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
inquisitors make nice pokedexes, with monster lore and various wis-centric stuff.
Well, it's the same deal as the Cloistered Cleric, in that it would work better, if there was a way to use wisdom for knowledge checks.

Well, Monster Lore lets you add Wis IN ADDITION TO Int, so as long as you don't dump Int it's even better.

Heh. Could be cool to take the Conversion Inquisition and a level or two of Bard on top of that, then take that Pageant of the Peacock thing.

Using Wis for your Bluff check and then basically using Wis for ALL Int based skills a few times a day.

Grand Lodge

Lune wrote:

Throw me solidly in the Bard/Oracle camp. Anything the Mindchemist has to offer will not beat Focused Trance's +20 circumstance bonus and Think On It's +10 competance bonus.

Sidestep Secret will definitely help with AC. That would allow you to be getting Wis and Cha to AC for a passable unarmored build. I wouldn't bother with Lore Keeper. I would keep Cha high but have Int be the primary stat. In the end I would get a stat item for each stat as it will help with your most often used skills.

There is nothing limiting you from taking 3 classes. I would take 2 levels of MoMS and pick up the latter Kirin Style feats. That will help with being able to contribute in combat.

Archivist is good but I think I would rather Archeologist. It is more front loaded and I wouldn't spend a bunch of time on Bard. I would probably stop at 4th for the rogue talent and use it to pickup a style feat via the Ninja trick.

The majority of levels I would put into Oracle of Lore though.

For race I would suggest either Human or Elf. For human it would be either for earlier feats access or for Focused Study for 3x Skill Focus. For Elf it would be for access to Breadth of Knowledge. I think you will get more milage out of human but either is good.

Mindchemist is good but it is front loaded. Any more than 2 levels would be a mistake for this build. Even then, you could pick up that class as well but you are spreading yourself pretty thin.

My recommended build would be MoMS2/Archeologist4/Oracle 14. Alternatively you could take off 2 levels of Oracle in favor of 2 levels of Mindchemist. I wouldn't recommend it as the cognatogen doesn't last long and even though 2xInt to knowlegde is good I would feel like you are missing out on better casting as an Oracle. If the rogue talent from Archeologist at 4th isn't worth it for you then going only to 3rd to pickup an extra Revalation from Orcacle at 15 wouldn't be bad either.

If I go Lore Oracle/Bard, why would I dip MoMS? Also, if I have the Lore Keeper Revelation, and using Charisma for Knowledge checks, why would I need Intelligence to be my primary stat?


For the early entry bonus style feats and free IUS which you would need to take ala carte for getting the Kirin Style feats.

I was suggesting against getting the Charisma to Knowledge checks ability. Int is better in the sense that it gives bonus skill points. Still, having a decent Charisma would be good for the other Revalations and skills that use it. Basically I would prioritize stats as: Int, Wis/Cha, Con, Dex. Str would be a dump stat.

You want me to make a full build? I might be able to do that when I get home. Work blocks pfsrd which is easier to browse for building.

Grand Lodge

If you go bard.. Catfolk bard is the best. 2x the effect of bardic knowledge.

But since you'll wanna focus in int scroll scholar quickly adds up in power.

Grand Lodge

Lune wrote:

For the early entry bonus style feats and free IUS which you would need to take ala carte for getting the Kirin Style feats.

I was suggesting against getting the Charisma to Knowledge checks ability. Int is better in the sense that it gives bonus skill points. Still, having a decent Charisma would be good for the other Revalations and skills that use it. Basically I would prioritize stats as: Int, Wis/Cha, Con, Dex. Str would be a dump stat.

You want me to make a full build? I might be able to do that when I get home. Work blocks pfsrd which is easier to browse for building.

With Sidestep Secret, couldn't I just dump dexterity?


I've a similar character using the Bard's Archivist archetype. I don't know that it's mechanically better, but it's conceptually really sound.

If you'd like, consider taking a Circlet of Persuasion with the Cha > Knowledges revelation. Then you would have an additional +3 on all of your checks.


You still benefit from Dex for Dex based skills. Many of those I would think would be often used for this type of character. It isn't quite a dump stat but close to it.

Hm. Also what Skaldi said is absolutely true. Perhaps use a feat to pickup that Revalation as that cheap item/revaletion combo may be worth it.

Shadow Lodge

Might I suggest going with a "Loracle"1/archaeologistx? Pick up Sidestep Secret and the Charsima to Knowledge checks with extra revelation at first level, along with Noble Scion of War, so you could have a good initiative and not need to pump dex at all. Then with the bard, pick up Fate's Favored, Pageant of the Peacock, Skill Mastery [Bluff, Use Magic Device, and knowledges with the rest of your options], a Circlet of Persuasion, and maybe Skill Focus[Bluff] for the peacock. Up to GM interpretation, but I believe that since Initiative is a charisma check with the feat the Circlet of Persuasion applies to it, as well as applying to knowledge checks and concentration checks. You can use bluff with the peacock thing to gain a quick +4[or +10 if you take skill focus], and still have good knowledge checks when you don't use it. Just as an option.

Scarab Sages

You can also try 3 levels in magus to get Divinatory Strike Arcana:

Divinatory Strike:
Whenever the magus scores a critical hit against an opponent with a melee attack, he can gain preternatural insight into his foe's strengths and weaknesses as though he had rolled a natural 20 on a Knowledge check to identify the creature struck. Any bonuses or penalties the magus normally applies to such a Knowledge check are applied to this ability, including his Intelligence modifier, ranks in the requisite Knowledge skill, and other applicable modifiers. Depending on the final calculated outcome of this ability and the CR of the creature struck, the magus may still be unable to glean information about his enemy. This ability works even if the magus has already attempted a Knowledge check to identify the creature.

Toss keen on a rapier or scimitar, and you got a high Knowledge check on crits.

Dark Archive

I'm just looking at making something like this for my wife to play as it happens, I settled on Archivist Bard 2/Dual Cursed Lore Oracle 18. You get pretty much full oracle casting (with magical knack) and the ability to both add Cha to Kn skills plus the incredible Focused Trance bonus, between Think On It and the Bards ability to take 20 once a day you'll blow every check out of the water. Breadth of Experience also adds a nice bonus to them all as mentioned, take Misfortune & Fortune revelations for even more re-rolls to ensure success if desired!

Dark Archive

I was wondering why no one til ArmouredMonk mentioned the Loracle 1/Bard X combo and THEN taking the Lore Keeper revelation and pumping up that CHA. Now for added utility, stick with straight Bard and become an Azata Blooded Aasimar. Now for favored class bonus you choose one bardic performance; treat the bard as +1/2 level higher when determining the effects of that performance, so now not only are you the knowledge pool but you are a prime buffer for all those guys protecting you and also a social butterfly. If you dip at 1, take Extra Revelation feat and grab Focused Trance or Think On It Revelation for extra Knowledge goodness. The only downside to this is you wont have near as many Skill Points as the MoMS/Mind Chemist BUT your Inspire Courage will be insane down the road and you can be primary face of the party if that role isnt filled yet either.

Grand Lodge

Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks.

Which of those do I really need to be high?

Grand Lodge

Depends. Acrobatics is always useful to avoid some AoO for movement. At least have 3 ranks in it so you can be able to have a better fighting defenseivley ability.

If you're planning to fly all the time, that is also useful.

Same with Riding.

Escape artist.. I dunno about that one.

Disable to open things.. To open the most basic lock its a 20 dc.

SoH only if you plan on carrying weapons on you that are hidden or picking pockets.

Stealth it wouldn't hurt to have this leveled probally.

Shadow Lodge

Slight of Hand and Acrobatics are both very helpful to pump up, because the former has a bunch of fun tricks of minor theft and you can use in performance, and the latter helps avoid AoO's and jump when you need to.

Dark Archive

You seem to be very open to Paizo material from whatever source. If you are a little more open, you might find that you like the 3.5 Archivist from Heroes of Horror or the cloistered cleric from (I always forget if it is UA or AU but the two words are) Unearthed Arcana. Be careful with that last one, I believe another product exits with the same name with the words reversed.

Grand Lodge

Espy Kismet wrote:

Depends. Acrobatics is always useful to avoid some AoO for movement. At least have 3 ranks in it so you can be able to have a better fighting defenseivley ability.

If you're planning to fly all the time, that is also useful.

Same with Riding.

Escape artist.. I dunno about that one.

Disable to open things.. To open the most basic lock its a 20 dc.

SoH only if you plan on carrying weapons on you that are hidden or picking pockets.

Stealth it wouldn't hurt to have this leveled probally.

Well, I can nab Wisdom of the Flesh to switch any of them to wisdom.

Acrobatics, and maybe Fly. If I want, there is a trait to make Escape Artist use strength.

Contributor

I actually just built this the other day.

Fighter (Unarmed) 1 / Oracle (Lore) 1 / Summoner (Synthesist) 18

First Level: Fighter. Grab Improved Unarmed Strike & Kirin Style as bonus feats. Could possibly substitute for a Level of Master of Many Styles if you don't mind A) being Lawful and B) needing a decent Wisdom score (not really an issue beginning at 3rd level).

Second Level: Oracle. Grab whatever spells you like (I personally took Know the Enemy as one of mine because it was appropriate). Grab Lore Keeper as your revelation.

Third Level: Summoner. Choose whatever base form you like (I personally picked bipedal) and spend all of your evolution points on the skilled evolution. Select Knowledge: arcana, dungeoneering, local, nature, religion, or the planes. Continue to spend your evolution points on this arcana until you possess it with all six of the "monster identifying" Knowledges.

To recap, you now possess Kirin Style, all Knowledge skills as class skills, a +8 racial bonus to any three Knowledge skills of your choice, and you get to add your Charisma bonus on Knowledge checks instead of your Intelligence, all by third level.

You can combine this combo with anything anyone else suggests, or you can just keep going Synthesist Summoner because why the hell not? Ironically enough, some would consider spending six evolution points on Skilled to be nerfing yourself!

An Aside:

I fluffed this character to have been possessed by his eidolon, a spirit of a dead oracle who whispers the world's secrets into his ears. I took the Haunted curse as a result.

Grand Lodge

I have no personal experience with the Summoner.

Contributor

blackbloodtroll wrote:
I have no personal experience with the Summoner.

Doesn't change that it's an awesome concept!

If you want something you're more familiar with, exchange the levels of Summoner for Bard and tell your player to make a Catfolk. The catfolk favored class option for bards is +1/2 to the bonus provided by Bardic Knowledge.

Its not as much of a front-loaded bonus to Knowledge checks as the Summoner build, but by 20th level you have +19 on all Knowledges (not just the enemy identifying ones) plus Kirin Style and Charisma to Knowledges.

Edit: Actually, Archivist bard is a really good option for this build. The archetype trades Inspire Courage for Naturalist, which gives bonuses to your allies if you success on a Knowledge check to identify for your foes. Later, it gets the ability to literally put your foes to sleep via boring lectures.

Grand Lodge

I have to explain the build, and how to play it(mechanically).

So, I need to be sure I understand both. That's all.

Catfolk Archaeologist/Lore Oracle sounds the most interesting, but not sure how that should be built up.

Grand Lodge

NOTICE:

I have been told that anything 3rd party is allowed, but only if it is available for Herolab.

Not sure what that adds though.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I have to explain the build, and how to play it(mechanically).

So, I need to be sure I understand both. That's all.

Catfolk Archaeologist/Lore Oracle sounds the most interesting, but not sure how that should be built up.

well, kirin style is a big help, arcane strike and bard high-five each other all day (provided you have the swift actions to spare, which is a hiccup with kirin style) and helps cover the to-hit issues of dipping two 3/4 bab classes.

also, anyone considered magus 3 (for divinatory strike and spell combat shenanigans) / lore warden fighter 17? know they enemy makes a nice pair with the style. magical knack brings shocking grasp up to a respectable 5d6 damage, and true strike spell combat with lore warden's combat maneuvers is icing on the cake.

Grand Lodge

AndIMustMask wrote:

Well, kirin style is a big help, arcane strike and bard high-five each other all day (provided you have the swift actions to spare, which is a hiccup with kirin style) and helps cover the to-hit issues of dipping two 3/4 bab classes.

also, anyone considered magus 3 (for divinatory strike and spell combat shenanigans) / lore warden fighter 17? know they enemy makes a nice pair with the style. magical knack brings shocking grasp up to a respectable 5d6 damage, and true strike spell combat with lore warden's combat maneuvers is icing on the cake.

I could pick up the Kirin Style feats, without a dip.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

Well, kirin style is a big help, arcane strike and bard high-five each other all day (provided you have the swift actions to spare, which is a hiccup with kirin style) and helps cover the to-hit issues of dipping two 3/4 bab classes.

also, anyone considered magus 3 (for divinatory strike and spell combat shenanigans) / lore warden fighter 17? know they enemy makes a nice pair with the style. magical knack brings shocking grasp up to a respectable 5d6 damage, and true strike spell combat with lore warden's combat maneuvers is icing on the cake.

I could pick up the Kirin Style feats, without a dip.

i was talking aobut you dipping between oracle and bard. dipping monk as well would take your BAB from "okay this is kinda shaky" to "i cant hit jack nuthin' captian"

though a pale green prism ioun stone and a wayfinder-slotted...smoky pyramid (i think? the one that grants free weapon focus) would help your to-hit no matter your BAB situation.

Scarab Sages

If any 3rd party is available for use then are you allowed to use Knowledge Devotion from 3.5 Complete Champion? I have a copy of the feat I've built for hero lab for my own use (I'm out of the country at the minute but can send it across on Tuesday).

It would help with your ability to contribute in combat enormously.

Grand Lodge

If I go Catfolk Archaeologist/Lore Oracle, how should I distribute my Attributes, Levels, and Feats?

Grand Lodge

minoritarian wrote:

If any 3rd party is available for use then are you allowed to use Knowledge Devotion from 3.5 Complete Champion? I have a copy of the feat I've built for hero lab for my own use (I'm out of the country at the minute but can send it across on Tuesday).

It would help with your ability to contribute in combat enormously.

I am interested in that file, even if not okayed.


well lets see...

something like (assuming 20pb)

str 11 (1pt)
dex 14 (2pts +2 racial)
con 14 (5pts)
int 14 (5pts)
wis 10 (2pts -2 racial)
cha 16 (5pts, +2 racial)

you could feasibly take the wis hit and remove the int investment (because you already get a ton of skills per level) and use those points elsewhere--like strength. level points would go to int or cha. the int is also good for kirin style, as well as the extra skill ranks.

without the int-focus you'd maybe want something like:

str 14 (5pts)
dex 15 (3pts +2 racial)
con 14 (5pts)
int 10
wis 8 (-2 racial)
cha 17 (7pts, +2 racial)

your racial perception bonus covers the wis hit nicely. level points would drop one in dex for an even 16 (+3), and the rest in cha or str as you deem appropriate. this is assuming arcane strike but not kirin style since they'd compete over swift actions.

for feats i'm not sure. something like:

ORC 1 - Extra revelation (Lore Keeper, assuming you took sidestep secret)
BARD 3 - Arcane Strike (retrain to something else when you get kirin strike--spell focus (enchantment) perhaps?)
BARD 5 - IUS
BARD 7 - Kirin style
BARD 9 - Kirin strike
BARD 11 - Lunge? Gtr. spell focus (enchantment)? spell penetration? not sure.

Grand Lodge

With Sidestep Secret, why would I put anything into Dex?


CMD, initiative, ranged attacks (which includes some spells). you could easily remove the investment from it and put it elsewhere (more int or cha i suppose) if you wanted.

Grand Lodge

Noble Scion feat will allow me to use charisma for initiative.


cant you only take that at 1st level?


Lune wrote:

Throw me solidly in the Bard/Oracle camp. Anything the Mindchemist has to offer will not beat Focused Trance's +20 circumstance bonus and Think On It's +10 competance bonus.

Sidestep Secret will definitely help with AC. That would allow you to be getting Wis and Cha to AC for a passable unarmored build. I wouldn't bother with Lore Keeper. I would keep Cha high but have Int be the primary stat. In the end I would get a stat item for each stat as it will help with your most often used skills.

There is nothing limiting you from taking 3 classes. I would take 2 levels of MoMS and pick up the latter Kirin Style feats. That will help with being able to contribute in combat.

Archivist is good but I think I would rather Archeologist. It is more front loaded and I wouldn't spend a bunch of time on Bard. I would probably stop at 4th for the rogue talent and use it to pickup a style feat via the Ninja trick.

The majority of levels I would put into Oracle of Lore though.

For race I would suggest either Human or Elf. For human it would be either for earlier feats access or for Focused Study for 3x Skill Focus. For Elf it would be for access to Breadth of Knowledge. I think you will get more milage out of human but either is good.

Mindchemist is good but it is front loaded. Any more than 2 levels would be a mistake for this build. Even then, you could pick up that class as well but you are spreading yourself pretty thin.

My recommended build would be MoMS2/Archeologist4/Oracle 14. Alternatively you could take off 2 levels of Oracle in favor of 2 levels of Mindchemist. I wouldn't recommend it as the cognatogen doesn't last long and even though 2xInt to knowlegde is good I would feel like you are missing out on better casting as an Oracle. If the rogue talent from Archeologist at 4th isn't worth it for you then going only to 3rd to pickup an extra Revalation from Orcacle at 15 wouldn't be bad either.

Just throwing it ot there, but if you make all the Knowledge skills Cha based instead of Int based...then... Circlet of Persuasion adds +3 to all knowledges.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Noble Scion feat will allow me to use charisma for initiative.

And Circlet of persuasion would add to initiative too, if you make it cha based.


Remy Balster wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Noble Scion feat will allow me to use charisma for initiative.
And Circlet of persuasion would add to initiative too, if you make it cha based.

it would apply to your reflex save as well, no (since it also runs off of cha thanks to sidestep secret)?

Shadow Lodge

I think I have a loracle/bard build somewhere, want me to post it at 4th level?

Grand Lodge

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
I think I have a loracle/bard build somewhere, want me to post it at 4th level?

I would love to see it. What point buy is it?

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
If I go Catfolk Archaeologist/Lore Oracle, how should I distribute my Attributes, Levels, and Feats?

Don't do Archaeologist, do Archivist. Archaeologist isn't a party buffer; its all self-buffs, and none of it has anything to do with the Knowledge theme.

Archivist ties your best Bardic Performance (Inspire Courage) to your Knowledge checks and spreads out the bonus to make it generally more useful.

If you're going for Kirin Style, I would pull it off as so:

B1 - Weapon Finesse
O1
B2 - Piranha Attack
B3
B4 - Improved Unarmed Strike
B5
B6 - Kirin Style
B7
B8 - Kirin Strike
B9
B10 - Combat Reflexes
B11
B12 - Kirin Path
B13
B14 - Player's Choice
B15
B16 - Player's Choice
B17
B18 - Player's Choice
B19

When I picture the "Know-It-All," a big, beefty warrior doesn't come to mind. I picture someone who is fast and nimble, personally. The catfolk racial bonuses (and really their entire set of racial traits) supports this sort of playstyle. Considering that you can't grab Kirin Style until 6th level without dipping into wither Unarmed Fighter or Master of Many Styles, you have a few feat slots to pick up some toys before you can qualify for the linchpin of the build.

At 1st Level, grab a rapier (bards have free proficiency with it) and pick up Weapon Finesse. The witty, rapier-totting bard is iconic enough that your player will probably get a kick out of it.

Show your friend the list of oracle curses and tell him to pick whichever penalty (not bonus) he thinks is the coolest. Try to shy him away from any that will negatively impact his ability to use bardic performances or fight in melee (the big three I can think of are blackened, deaf, and wolf-scarred; those should be avoided). Also stay away from tongues; most of what bards do is language-dependent and giving out the knowledges to your friends is impossible if they can't understand what language you are rambling in. I'd say haunted is probably your safest bet, but also look into legalistic, from Blood of Fiends. That could open up some neat roleplaying opportunities as well.

At 3rd Level, grab Piranha Attack. Its time he joined the big boys and got a damage-dealing option.

At 5th Level, grab Improved Unarmed Strike. This is going to be the worst level ever for him; bards get no class features at this level and Improved Unarmed Strike will do little for your friend. You might want to switch around Piranha Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike just so he has something neat to look forward to at this otherwise dreadful level.

At 7th Level, you finally qualify for Kirin Style. Huzzah! Remember that Knowledge (arcana) must have at least 6 ranks to qualify. 2 ranks in any other Knowledge is easy.

At 9th Level, you qualify for Kirin Strike. Adding double your Int to one attack is nice and fits the "precise" theme of the rapier.

At 11th Level, you're one rank in Knowledge (arcana) short of qualifying for Kirin Path. Grab Combat Reflexes instead because having oodles of attacks of opportunities makes Kirin Path -really- good.

At 13th level, you get the final link in the chain: Kirin Path. Taking 10 on any Knowledge check made to identify a monster frees up your Lore Master ability for other skills. Being able to spend an attack of opportunity to dart around an identified opponent is -awesome-, especially for a nimble character like this one.

Starting at 15th level, your player can pick whatever he wants for his feats. By this point, he's probably going to be experienced enough to make his own choices, but strong options include:

Improved Critical (rapier) (Double threat range on a rapier? Yes please.)
Critical Focus plus Impaling Critical (You took this for Impaling Critical, and you will not regret it. Picking up Impaling Critical as your 15th level feat makes even the lowly bard nasty.)
Extra Performance (Six more rounds a day of being a know-it-all.)
Spellsong (Lots of nifty little benefits, but its much better if you focus on casting spells.)

Your friend will want to focus on picking buff-based skills with the occasional enchantment. Things like haste and heroism will be a must. Also be sure to pick up timely inspiration and gallant inspiration; letting anyone gain a bonus as an immediate action is -super- nice and fitting for the character.

Endgame, you have a +18 on Knowledge skills from Bardic Knowledge, plus your Charisma modifier from Lore Keeper, plus your ranks, plus 3 from your Class Skill bonus. While in Kirin Style, get an extra +2 to identify monsters and you can always take 10 on Knowledge checks made to identify opponents; success gives you +2 on saves against identified opponents and +2 against their attacks of opportunity.

When performing, you can give yourself and your allies a +4 insight bonus to AC and on attack rolls and saves against the creature's extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. All of these bonuses stack for the bard because Kirin Style's save bonus is untyped.

In all, you lose the +4 to damage that inspire courage would give, but the bonus to hit is arguably the more useful part of inspire courage anyway, and your allies will love you for the defensive boons.

This isn't including the other benefits of being a bard, such as spells, being able to make all skill checks untrained, Lore Master, other bardic performances, and so on.

Hope this helps.

Shadow Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
I would love to see it. What point buy is it?

Twenty. I'll post it as soon as I can find it.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

I actually just built this the other day.

Fighter (Unarmed) 1 / Oracle (Lore) 1 / Summoner (Synthesist) 18

First Level: Fighter. Grab Improved Unarmed Strike & Kirin Style as bonus feats. Could possibly substitute for a Level of Master of Many Styles if you don't mind A) being Lawful and B) needing a decent Wisdom score (not really an issue beginning at 3rd level).

Second Level: Oracle. Grab whatever spells you like (I personally took Know the Enemy as one of mine because it was appropriate). Grab Lore Keeper as your revelation.

Third Level: Summoner. Choose whatever base form you like (I personally picked bipedal) and spend all of your evolution points on the skilled evolution. Select Knowledge: arcana, dungeoneering, local, nature, religion, or the planes. Continue to spend your evolution points on this arcana until you possess it with all six of the "monster identifying" Knowledges.

To recap, you now possess Kirin Style, all Knowledge skills as class skills, a +8 racial bonus to any three Knowledge skills of your choice, and you get to add your Charisma bonus on Knowledge checks instead of your Intelligence, all by third level.

You can combine this combo with anything anyone else suggests, or you can just keep going Synthesist Summoner because why the hell not? Ironically enough, some would consider spending six evolution points on Skilled to be nerfing yourself!

** spoiler omitted **

And once again the answer is Synthesist summoner:)

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