|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Simple enough question...
In both the Wizard & Sorcerer class description, Cantrips and Spells are treated as separate & distinct class features. So, does the ability to cast a Cantrip count as being able to cast Arcane spells for the purposes of qualifying for Arcane Strike?
If that is the case, would the Minor Magic Rogue Talent then allow me to take Arcane Strike? Or would I be required to also take Major Magic?
Previously i would have said no to either. However te recent rulings for prc qualification seem to be treating sla as spells in all cases so the minor magic should be enough.
|
As long as they are arcane in nature, that seems to fulfill the pre-requisite. It does not say that you need to cast a certain level of spells, but that you are capable of casting arcane spells.
I would let it go...
Is this for PFS? Then it could be sticky, but if it is for a home game, just present that to your GM.
Simple enough question...
In both the Wizard & Sorcerer class description, Cantrips and Spells are treated as separate & distinct class features. So, does the ability to cast a Cantrip count as being able to cast Arcane spells for the purposes of qualifying for Arcane Strike?
If that is the case, would the Minor Magic Rogue Talent then allow me to take Arcane Strike? Or would I be required to also take Major Magic?
Take a trait that lets you use a cantrip 1/day as a SLA. (minor magic works too) Done. Pick up feat. Since PFS follows the FAQ's, it should be fine for them unless they made a ruling disallowing it.
Minor Magic is better because it scales CL with Rogue level. The traits use casting class level as CL or stay at CL 1. (There's one trait that scales though... can't remember what it is.)
|
|
Yeah there is Magical Talent 'trait, but if you don't have a caster level (like a Rogue wouldn't), it only functions at CL1. I guess that would be +1 damage, but Minor Magic talent scales so that is better...
This would be for PFS. I know they follow the FAQ's and the FAQ about SLA's counting as 'casting' for qualification purposes would make this a viable strategy for the Major Magic rogue talent as it gives you a 1st level "spell" as an SLA that scales...
But if a Cantrip counts as a "spell" for Arcane Strike, it means you would only need Minor Magic...
Alluring, Draconic Echo and Harrow Chosen use character level as caster level. Levels with you and you aren't wasting your rogue talent...
Your class level is your caster level for the purpose of any spells you can cast as a result of that class.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Alluring, Draconic Echo and Harrow Chosen use character level as caster level. Levels with you and you aren't wasting your rogue talent...
Harrow Chosen doesn't work because 1) being able to "spend 10 minutes consulting this harrow deck on a particular action to gain the effects of the spell augury as a spellcaster of your character level" =/= a Spell-Like Ability (at least in the strictest reading of the rules), and 2) even if were to count as a SLA, it would be divine (and therefore not meet the prereq for Arcane Strike).
EDIT: Also:
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
Emphasis mine.
So cantrips are spells, and being able to cast them (either as "normal" spells or as a Spell-Like Ability) qualifies you for Arcane Strike.
Alluring, Draconic Echo and Harrow Chosen use character level as caster level. Levels with you and you aren't wasting your rogue talent...Harrow Chosen doesn't work because 1) being able to "spend 10 minutes consulting this harrow deck on a particular action to gain the effects of the spell augury as a spellcaster of your character level" =/= a Spell-Like Ability (at least in the strictest reading of the rules), and 2) even if were to count as a SLA, it would be divine (and therefore not meet the prereq for Arcane Strike).
#1 Then what IS it? SU, SP, EX or natural? Those are the only options and SP sounds right to me.
#2 Isn't the spell on the witch list? Wouldn't that make it arcane?EDIT: I see I was thinking of the wrong version of the FAQ. #2 defaults to cleric first.
#1 Then what IS it? SU, SP, EX or natural? Those are the only options and SP sounds right to me.Alluring, Draconic Echo and Harrow Chosen use character level as caster level. Levels with you and you aren't wasting your rogue talent...Harrow Chosen doesn't work because 1) being able to "spend 10 minutes consulting this harrow deck on a particular action to gain the effects of the spell augury as a spellcaster of your character level" =/= a Spell-Like Ability (at least in the strictest reading of the rules), and 2) even if were to count as a SLA, it would be divine (and therefore not meet the prereq for Arcane Strike).
Strict RAW it isn't any, because it doesn't specify.
If it were my responsibility to designate it as either SP, SU, EX or natural, I probably would go with SP because it functions similarly to a wizard's bonded object.
Can someone point me to the FAQ pleAse. I thought it only applied towards prestige classes.
This FAQ ruling allows "a creature with a spell-like ability [to] count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements" and the example they give involves a barghest using its D-Door SLA to qualify for the Dimensional Agility feat. It was later clarified that this also allowed for early entry into certain prestige classes. It has been extrapolated from there to mean that being able to cast any arcane (or divine) spell as a spell-like ability = able to cast arcane (or divine) spells for the purposes of meeting prerequisites or requirements for just about anything.
|
|
Alluring, Draconic Echo and Harrow Chosen use character level as caster level. Levels with you and you aren't wasting your rogue talent...Harrow Chosen doesn't work because 1) being able to "spend 10 minutes consulting this harrow deck on a particular action to gain the effects of the spell augury as a spellcaster of your character level" =/= a Spell-Like Ability (at least in the strictest reading of the rules), and 2) even if were to count as a SLA, it would be divine (and therefore not meet the prereq for Arcane Strike).
EDIT: Also:
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
Emphasis mine.
So cantrips are spells, and being able to cast them (either as "normal" spells or as a Spell-Like Ability) qualifies you for Arcane Strike.
That seems reasonable. I'll run it by my local PFS judges to be sure they feel the same way...
They're still spells, just not not "spells per day."
Well then. Rogues with the minor magic talent qualify for Arcane Strike because it's two spells a day. ;)
|
|
They're still spells, just not not "spells per day."
Why not?
You can prepare them, and they actually get cast, being spells and all, and for those who prepare spells, they a have number of Cantrips/Orisons, or "spells per day" they can prepare.
They are in all, and every single way possible, spells, and there ain't no finagling of RAW that even suggests otherwise.
Next, someone is gonna tell me Humans are not creatures, not a race, and not an available target for the Enlarge Person spell.
|
|
They're still spells, just not not "spells per day."Why not?
You can prepare them, and they actually get cast, being spells and all, and for those who prepare spells, they a have number of Cantrips/Orisons, or "spells per day" they can prepare.
They are in all, and every single way possible, spells, and there ain't no finagling of RAW that even suggests otherwise.
Next, someone is gonna tell me Humans are not creatures, not a race, and not an available target for the Enlarge Person spell.
Cantrips/Orisons have a separate & distinct entry from "Spells" in each classes write up.
I asked this questions because at first I was like "Of course cantrips are arcane spells"... But then I thought - why the heck are they given their own section and made a distinct ability from "spells"? Maybe they are not supposed to be considered spells...
I think what RJ Grady is saying (and I think he is correct by the way) because cantrips do not consume any slot and can be recast, they are a separate & distinct ability from "spells"... But they are still spells...
*Snip*
I think what RJ Grady is saying (and I think he is correct by the way) because cantrips do not consume any slot and can be recast, they are a separate & distinct ability from "spells"... But they are still spells...
Emphasis mine.
Except, they do consume a slot.
A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.
A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
Nothing there says anything about what level of spell counts as a spell. Table: Wizard even indicates how many 0-level spell slots a wizard has.
The only reason "Cantrips" is listed as a separate class feature is to point out that when a wizard (or any other spellcasting class with 0-level spells) casts a 0-level spell, the slot is not emptied, allowing the spell to be cast again and again. A wizard could even prepare read magic in every single one of his 0-level spell slots, it just wouldn't be very wise to do so.
EDIT: I understand this post may come across as hostile sounding. That was not my intent, and I apologize if comes off that way.
They're still spells, just not not "spells per day."Why not?
You can prepare them, and they actually get cast, being spells and all, and for those who prepare spells, they a have number of Cantrips/Orisons, or "spells per day" they can prepare.
They are in all, and every single way possible, spells, and there ain't no finagling of RAW that even suggests otherwise.
Next, someone is gonna tell me Humans are not creatures, not a race, and not an available target for the Enlarge Person spell.
I agree they are spells, and that they qualify you for Arcane Strike. I was answering the critique that they are not spells because they are given their sections in the class writeups-- which is wrong. They are spells in every sense.
|
|
*Snip*
I think what RJ Grady is saying (and I think he is correct by the way) because cantrips do not consume any slot and can be recast, they are a separate & distinct ability from "spells"... But they are still spells...Emphasis mine.
Except, they do consume a slot.
You're reading the wrong part... That part of my quote that you bolded and then disagreed with is right from the book and SRD - under cantrips...
|
|
I agree they are spells, and that they qualify you for Arcane Strike. I was answering the critique that they are not spells because they are given their sections in the class writeups-- which is wrong. They are spells in every sense.They're still spells, just not not "spells per day."Why not?
You can prepare them, and they actually get cast, being spells and all, and for those who prepare spells, they a have number of Cantrips/Orisons, or "spells per day" they can prepare.
They are in all, and every single way possible, spells, and there ain't no finagling of RAW that even suggests otherwise.
Next, someone is gonna tell me Humans are not creatures, not a race, and not an available target for the Enlarge Person spell.
You and I are on the same page I believe.
Cheers
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).You're reading the wrong part... That part of my quote that you bolded and then disagreed with is right from the book and SRD - under cantrips...*Snip*
I think what RJ Grady is saying (and I think he is correct by the way) because cantrips do not consume any slot and can be recast, they are a separate & distinct ability from "spells"... But they are still spells...Emphasis mine.
Except, they do consume a slot.
Not being expended from a slot when cast =/= not consuming a slot. A wizard has so many slots in which he may prepare 0-level spells. Each 0-level spell not from a prohibited school fills (or consumes) 1 such slot, and each 0-level spell that is from a prohibited school fills 2.
BIG OL' PRE-POST EDIT: I have thus far been referring to the wizard class description. I just looked at the sorcerer class description, and lo and behold it says:
Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
So it's a purely semantic argument with absolutely no effect on the mechanics of the game, but I still say that a wizard's cantrips do consume slots, but are not expended when cast (other wise he'd have no need for any 0-level spell slots); whereas a sorcerer's cantrips don't actually consume any slots simply because he doesn't have any 0-level spell slots to begin with. /pedantry
In any case, the question of this thread has be thoroughly answered, so I bid thee all good day (or night as the case may be).
Cantrip/Orison is a feature of certain classes. All it means is that the spell isn't expended when cast. All else is the same.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
For what it's worth, when the SLAs-as-prereqs FAQ first hit, designer Sean K Reynolds commented that an example they considered using (instead of the DDoor example that they ended up with) was in fact a rogue with Minor Magic taking Arcane Strike. It was the very first post-FAQ "Wait, so then is X legal?" question to be confirmed.
|
|
Alluring, Draconic Echo and Harrow Chosen use character level as caster level. Levels with you and you aren't wasting your rogue talent...Harrow Chosen doesn't work because 1) being able to "spend 10 minutes consulting this harrow deck on a particular action to gain the effects of the spell augury as a spellcaster of your character level" =/= a Spell-Like Ability (at least in the strictest reading of the rules), and 2) even if were to count as a SLA, it would be divine (and therefore not meet the prereq for Arcane Strike).
The other part of this is that Harrow Chosen is not legal for PFS play, per the Additional Resources. ^_^
The other part of this is that Harrow Chosen is not legal for PFS play, per the Additional Resources. ^_^Alluring, Draconic Echo and Harrow Chosen use character level as caster level. Levels with you and you aren't wasting your rogue talent...Harrow Chosen doesn't work because 1) being able to "spend 10 minutes consulting this harrow deck on a particular action to gain the effects of the spell augury as a spellcaster of your character level" =/= a Spell-Like Ability (at least in the strictest reading of the rules), and 2) even if were to count as a SLA, it would be divine (and therefore not meet the prereq for Arcane Strike).
I don't believe that they're asking about PFS rules.
Cantrip/Orison is a feature of certain classes. All it means is that the spell isn't expended when cast. All else is the same.
This.
Krodjin:Cantrips/Orisons are not a separate feature from spells, they are an additional feature that affects your 0-level spells. See the NPC class Adept for an example of 0-level spells w/out the cantrips feature.
So yes. It's terribly silly, like all the other implications of that ruling, but it works per FAQ. If you're not talking about PFS, ask your GM.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
So yes. It's terribly silly, like all the other implications of that ruling, but it works per FAQ.
What specifically do you mean when you say it's "terribly silly"? I ask out of curiosity, as I've seen remarkably little local impact of that FAQ at all, let alone any strong dislike, so I'm curious where you're coming from.
So yes. It's terribly silly, like all the other implications of that ruling, but it works per FAQ.What specifically do you mean when you say it's "terribly silly"? I ask out of curiosity, as I've seen remarkably little local impact of that FAQ at all, let alone any strong dislike, so I'm curious where you're coming from.
I'm referring to the FAQ that makes it count as arcane specifically, not so much that it counts as "being able to cast the spell". About the only oddity there is Bard/Rogues with minor magic (mage hand) qualifying for Arcane Trickster.
By "terribly silly" I mean that a 10th-level rogue with minor magic talent has the same "arcane power" as a 10th-level wizard. Considering the feat is far stronger than most cantrips, it doesn't really seem like imbuing "a fraction of your power" as the feat says.
Ah, so primarily a thematic disconnect, then?
I also don't consider Rogues an underpowered class, so adding the ability to add scaling damage to all attacks for minimal investment does seem a bit much. Rogues also have very little need for their swift actions most of the time.
I guess if 1.0 was the optimal power level of a feat, and 0.5 (Great Fortitude) to 1.5 (Power Attack) was the acceptable range, I'd put this use the feat at around 1.7. (On an unlimited scale).
But that's more personal opinion. The thematic part is more solid fact, if personal opinion on how much it matters.
|
|
Jiggy,
This would be for PFS. I know they follow the FAQ's and the FAQ about SLA's counting as 'casting' for qualification purposes would make this a viable strategy for the Major Magic rogue talent as it gives you a 1st level "spell" as an SLA that scales...
I just made mention because he admitted that it was for PFS. ^_^
