Please critique my knifemaster scout build


Advice


Asked to build a 12th lvl character. All non-3dr party Pathfinder is open.

Human Rogue Knifemaster Scout
str 11
dex 26 (human, 4&8 lvl, belt+4)
con 14
int 16
wis 7
cha 18 (Headband +2)

Feats/Rogue Talents:
1H Weapon Finesse
1 Two Weapon Fighting
R Offensive Defense
3 Weapon Focus Dagger
R Combat Expertise
5 Combat Reflexes
R Quick Draw
BR Improved Feint
7 Greater Feint
R Improved 2-weapon Fighting
9 2-weapon feint
R Weapon Snatcher
11 Improved Disarm
R Break Guard
BR Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Spellcraft)

AC 28 Celestial Armor

two +1 daggers of speed
single attack +19 1d4+1
full round attack +17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12 1d4+1

I sneak attack whenever I move 10 feet or more. In a full round attack, I can sacrifice the first attack to feint, all remaining attacks against the target are sneak attacks until the beginning of my next turn. My bluff is +27, or 37 taking 10 with skill mastery, successful in all but extreme cases.

I can disarm in place of any of my attacks. I use sleight of hand to disarm. My sleight of hand is +24, or 34 taking 10 with Skill Mastery, successful in all but extreme cases. I can disarm once per round without loosing an attack, and can disarm up to 7 times in a round.

Any suggestions of anything I might of missed or where to go next.


You're not doing any damage. At all.

That disarm is nice, but not all enemies are armed with a weapon you can disarm. Also, combat maneuvers get obselete pretty quick.

Sorry, but I don't know rogues well, but those are problems that need to be fixed.

Are you set on rogue? There are better classes (ranger, fighter...) for a two dagger disarm build.

Silver Crusade

she has plenty of damage. she does 1d4+1... + (6?) d8 in sneak attack damage.

I would actually say you seem low on magic items. drop the head band and grab some more enhancements on your daggers. at lvl 12 you should have about +3 at least +2 on your daggers with maybe flaming.

also consider grabbing agile for your daggers (add dex to them, although I don't remember if thats "3rd-party" or not.) consider getting a belt that gives other physical enhancement boni as well.

also, I never play a rogue where I do not get crippling strike at 10.

Its a must imo. everytime you HIT with sneak attack damage you do 2 str damage. This is one of the best debuffs in the game imo.


rorek55 wrote:

she has plenty of damage. she does 1d4+1... + (6?) d8 in sneak attack damage.

I would actually say you seem low on magic items. drop the head band and grab some more enhancements on your daggers. at lvl 12 you should have about +3 at least +2 on your daggers with maybe flaming.

also consider grabbing agile for your daggers (add dex to them, although I don't remember if thats "3rd-party" or not.) consider getting a belt that gives other physical enhancement boni as well.

also, I never play a rogue where I do not get crippling strike at 10.

Its a must imo. everytime you HIT with sneak attack damage you do 2 str damage. This is one of the best debuffs in the game imo.

You are correct all my attacks are doing 1d4+1+6d8.

I use the headband to assist with feinting and use magic device.
All my money is in my daggers. Speed is a +3 enhancement, so cost wise I'm wielding two +4 weapons. Agile is next on my list.

Thanks for crippling strike that would be extra brutal with 5 sneak attacks.

Silver Crusade

also, remember 2 weapon feint is NOT a prereq RAW for improved 2 weapon feint. (yay no dex to ac!)

ah I had not noticed that, imo, I would say drop the speed and grab agile and a +1 to hit and damage. imo its a much better deal (agile is a +1 level) not only does it help you vs things immune to sneak attack, it frees up a little extra gold. (and over I beleive more damage, as its will net you an extra +9 to damage and +1 to hit. Making actually hitting them much more likely.) I would also advice putting 16 in con. as you are a melee fighter and just take the 14 int. you have plenty. or better yet. boost wisdom to 8. (seriously, you need those will saves) cloak of res is a must imo as well. (grab a +2ish with free cash from the weapon change out)


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If your group uses traits, river rat is a must have for a dagger wielder.

Silver Crusade

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also reactionary is a great trait all together lol.


Merm7th wrote:

Asked to build a 12th lvl character. All non-3dr party Pathfinder is open.

Human Rogue Knifemaster Scout
str 11
dex 26 (human, 4&8 lvl, belt+4)
con 14
int 16
wis 7
cha 18 (Headband +2)

Feats/Rogue Talents:
1H Weapon Finesse
1 Two Weapon Fighting
R Offensive Defense
3 Weapon Focus Dagger
R Combat Expertise
5 Combat Reflexes
R Quick Draw
BR Improved Feint
7 Greater Feint
R Improved 2-weapon Fighting
9 2-weapon feint
R Weapon Snatcher
11 Improved Disarm
R Break Guard
BR Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Spellcraft)

AC 28 Celestial Armor

two +1 daggers of speed
single attack +19 1d4+1
full round attack +17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12 1d4+1

I sneak attack whenever I move 10 feet or more. In a full round attack, I can sacrifice the first attack to feint, all remaining attacks against the target are sneak attacks until the beginning of my next turn. My bluff is +27, or 37 taking 10 with skill mastery, successful in all but extreme cases.

I can disarm in place of any of my attacks. I use sleight of hand to disarm. My sleight of hand is +24, or 34 taking 10 with Skill Mastery, successful in all but extreme cases. I can disarm once per round without loosing an attack, and can disarm up to 7 times in a round.

Any suggestions of anything I might of missed or where to go next.

Have you taken Combat Trick multiple times? Surely you can only take it once?


your saves will be very weak

Sovereign Court

River Rat is a must, firstly. Agile should be a much higher priority than Speed in all honesty. Your Rogue needs the + to hit and damage far more than an extra attack- I would switch the speed for some more + on your daggers.


rorek55 wrote:

also, remember 2 weapon feint is NOT a prereq RAW for improved 2 weapon feint. (yay no dex to ac!)

ah I had not noticed that, imo, I would say drop the speed and grab agile and a +1 to hit and damage. imo its a much better deal (agile is a +1 level) not only does it help you vs things immune to sneak attack, it frees up a little extra gold. (and over I beleive more damage, as its will net you an extra +9 to damage and +1 to hit. Making actually hitting them much more likely.) I would also advice putting 16 in con. as you are a melee fighter and just take the 14 int. you have plenty. or better yet. boost wisdom to 8. (seriously, you need those will saves) cloak of res is a must imo as well. (grab a +2ish with free cash from the weapon change out)

With my current build improved two weapon feint is no different then two weapon feint. Greater feint extends it to all my attacks against the target till the beginning of my next turn, including the attacks of opportunity for picking up his disarmed weapon.

With my speed +1 daggers, I sac the first attack and have five 1d4+1+6d8 sneak attacks. Hits averaging 30 hp each. The attacks are +17/+17/+17/+12/+12. Three strong, two weak.

With Agile +3 daggers (same price), I sac the first attack and have three attacks. One primary 1d4+11+6d8 average=40, and two secondary 1d4+7+6d8 average 36. The attacks are +20/+15/+15. One strong and two average.

I prefer the three strong and two weak potentials to the three strong with slightly more damage each.

The only things immune to sneak attacks are Elementals, Oozes, and Incorporeals.

I do have a cloak of resistance. I didn't list all my items, just the ones relevant to the feint/disarm build.


I did the number crunching on my character wielding +1 speed daggers and +3 agile daggers. Accounting for the probability of Speed's +17/+17/+17/+12/+12 and agile's +19/+14/+14 hitting AC 20-40, and the average damage for each successful attack. The speed daggers do more per full round then the agile daggers until the targets AC is 36 after which their damage is even. Of course in single attacks agile wins, but in full attacks the speed is doing an average of 11 more damage against AC 27, and exponentially more against lower ACs. Only the most armored,buffed, non-dex dependent will be FF above 27 let alone 36 at levels appropriate for a lvl 12 party.

Yes with my Cloak of Resistance +2, my will save sucks. I will be tweaking that.


Assuming you are using point-buy, couldn't you drop your Charisma two points and roll them into Wis to get your Will save and Perception/Sense Motive scores up?

And +1'ing the River Rat and Reactionary traits.


Okay so I transcribed my abilities wrong, but I'm changing them anyway. So...

Str 7 (I have muleback chords to help carrying)
Dex 26 (17+2(human)+3 (leveling)+4 (belt))
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Chr 18 (16+2 (headband))

I have River Rat and reactionary.

River Rat helps mitigate my now -2 damage from Str. For this build Str should have always been my dump stat.

Sczarni

If you can fit in the Minor Magic talent, it may qualify you for Arcane Strike, which is just free damage for a build like this. Lots of free damage.

I'm still not convinced that Minor Magic, which gives you a Cantrip as an SLA counts as being able to "cast arcane spells", but if it does Arcane Strike is a boon for every TWF Rogue!

(I know there has been a FAQ that verifies that SLA's count as being able to "cast spells" for qualification purposes - I'm just not sure that Cantrips count as spells...)

Silver Crusade

no, you have to get minor AND major magic for arcance strike :(.

also, you can gram improved two weapon feint, WITHOUT the other feints. It gives you the same bonuses as the others.

also, how often do you get full attacks on enemies?


rorek55 wrote:

no, you have to get minor AND major magic for arcance strike :(.

also, you can gram improved two weapon feint, WITHOUT the other feints. It gives you the same bonuses as the others.

also, how often do you get full attacks on enemies?

Improved two weapon feint denies the the targets Dex until the end of my turn

Greater feint along with either of the 2 weapon feints, denies the targets Dex until the beginning of my next turn.

I like feinting, disarming, sneak attacking, and if they pick up their weapon getting a sneak attack of opportunity.

Not sure if its worth two feats to be able to sneak attack AoO for one target.

My Int is 14 and my Chr is 17. I need the higher Int for Combat Expertise.

If I drop Improved Feint and Greater Feint, what should I go for instead?

Silver Crusade

the two feats are ok to add a "buff" to other martial characters, Usually though it won't be needed since you are either 1v1 or flanking (hence no real need to feint, other than better hit chance, which I would consider doing anyway) the Fighter really doesn't need much help to hit the thing :P.

as for replacement feats.

a few suggestions I like
Dodge
shadowstrike (one that lets you sneak attack through concealment, IIRC this is a feat?)
two weapon defense
mobility (for getting into position and on those times you fail acrobatics)
two personal favorites of mine Step up+ Following step. (basically free 15ft move to stay in range for full attacks!) ending with step up and strike.


rorek55 wrote:

*Snip*

two personal favorites of mine Step up+ Following step. (basically free 15ft move to stay in range for full attacks!) ending with step up and strike.

Following Step only allows you to move up to 10 feet, not 15. And still only works when they take a 5-foot-step away from you. It's a decent feat (and chain), but doesn't work if the enemy takes a normal move action or the withdraw action to move away. Also be aware that using the feat(s) takes up an immediate action*.

*The wording in Step Up and Strike would seem to indicate that you no longer spend the immediate action to use them, but the "Normal:" line might imply otherwise.

Also, @Merm7th:

Another poster asked how you are seemingly able to take Combat Trick so many times. I'm also curious about this. Once as the rogue talent and once as the ninja trick allows you to take it twice, but you seem to be taking it 4 times (at 4th for Combat Expertise, 6th for Quick Draw, 6th again for Improved Feint, and 8th for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting).


Human Rogue Knifemaster Scout
str 7
dex 26 (human, 4&8 lvl, belt+4)
con 12
int 14
wis 12
cha 17 (Headband +2)

Feats/Rogue Talents:
1H Weapon Finesse
1 Two Weapon Fighting
R Offensive Defense
3 Weapon Focus Dagger
R Combat Expertise
5 Combat Reflexes
R Quick Draw
BR ???
7 ???
R Improved 2-weapon Fighting
9 Improved 2-weapon feint
R Weapon Snatcher
11 Improved Disarm
R Break Guard
BR Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Spellcraft)

AC 28 Celestial Armor

two +1 daggers of speed
single attack +19 1d4
full round attack +17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12 1d4

I sneak attack whenever I move 10 feet or more. In a full round attack, I can sacrifice the first attack to feint, all remaining attacks against the target are sneak attacks until the beginning of my next turn. My bluff is +26, or 36 taking 10 with skill mastery, successful in all but extreme cases.

I can disarm in place of any of my attacks. I use sleight of hand to disarm. My sleight of hand is +24, or 34 taking 10 with Skill Mastery, successful in all but extreme cases. I can disarm once per round without loosing an attack, and can disarm up to 7 times in a round.

Any suggestions for the unused rogue talent and feat?


Honorable Goblin wrote:


Also, @Merm7th:

Another poster asked how you are seemingly able to take Combat Trick so many times. I'm also curious about this. Once as the rogue talent and once as the ninja trick allows you to take it twice, but you seem to be taking it 4 times (at 4th for Combat Expertise, 6th for Quick Draw, 6th again for Improved Feint, and 8th for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting).

Okay I missed that. Back to the drawing board. I'm still learning Pathfinder. Last time I played was 6 years ago and 3.5.


Merm7th wrote:
Honorable Goblin wrote:


Also, @Merm7th:

Another poster asked how you are seemingly able to take Combat Trick so many times. I'm also curious about this. Once as the rogue talent and once as the ninja trick allows you to take it twice, but you seem to be taking it 4 times (at 4th for Combat Expertise, 6th for Quick Draw, 6th again for Improved Feint, and 8th for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting).

Okay I missed that. Back to the drawing board. I'm still learning Pathfinder. Last time I played was 6 years ago and 3.5.

No problem, it was an honest mistake. And actually, since you're dropping Improved Feint, you could take Combat Expertise or Quick Draw as your normal 3rd level feat and then take the Weapon Training (Daggers) rogue talent at either 4th or 6th level. That way you'll be completely legal.

As far as what talent and feat you should take at 6th and 7th respectfully, Shadow Strike is a good feat option. Is this character starting at 1sy level? if not, you could go:

Feats/Rogue Talents:
1H Arcane Strike*
01 Two Weapon Fighting
2R Finesse Rogue
03 Shadow Strike
4R Weapon Training (Dagger)
05 Combat Reflexes
6R Combat Trick (Quick Draw)
6R Offensive Defense
07 Combat Expertise
8R Ninja Trick (Combat Trick (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting))
09 Improved Two-Weapon Feint
10R Weapon Snatcher
11 Improved Disarm
12R Feat (Break Guard)
12R Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Spellcraft)

*To qualify, take the Alluring trait instead of Reactionary (I'd say your initiative is good enough without the +2 because of your Dex), and see this thread (specifically the post I made) and this FAQ as to why being able to cast a cantrip as a spell-like ability would count you as being able to cast arcane spells for the purposes of qualifying for certain things (e.g. Arcane Strike).


Feats/Rogue Talents:
1H Combat expertise
1 Two Weapon Fighting
R Finesse Rogue
3 Quick draw
R Weapon Training
5 Combat Reflexes
R Offensive Defense
BR ???
7 Improved Disarm
R Improved 2-weapon Fighting (Combat Trick)
9 Improved 2-weapon Feint
R Weapon Snatcher
11 Break Guard
R Crippling Strike
BR Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Spellcraft)

I think it works. I'm glad I don't have to play him at 1st lvl.

Silver Crusade

take cobat exp. lvl 1. weapon training, combat trick, finesse rogue, and offensive defense on your 4 rogue talents.

Silver Crusade

NINJAED


rorek55 wrote:
take cobat exp. lvl 1. weapon training, combat trick, finesse rogue, and offensive defense on your 4 rogue talents.

Just figured that out. Thanks for the catches and help.

Shadow Lodge

rorek55 wrote:
no, you have to get minor AND major magic for arcance strike :(.

The prerequisites are able to cast arcane spells. Doesn't give a level requirement.


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This is my recommendation for a Knifemaster/Scout Rogue. We had one similar to this who was incredibly effective in our Skull n Shackles campaign - the only difference was that she dipped Assassin for a single level (we hand-waved the alignment requirement as we usually do).
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.
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Human 10th level Knife Master & Scout / 2nd level Lore Warden
Focused Study, Human favored class option for Rogues levels 1, 4-8

Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 12
DEX - 16 (+2 racial modifier, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level)
CON - 12
INT - 14
WIS - 7
CHA - 14

Traits:
Reactionary
River Rat

Feats & Talents:
1st - Two-Weapon Fighting
1st - Skill Focus: Bluff
2nd - Finesse Rogue*
3rd - Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd - Dodge
4th - Two-Weapon Feint
4th - Combat Expertise
5th - Mobility
6th - Weapon Training: Kukri*
7th - Extra Rogue Talent: Bleeding Attack
8th - Skill Focus: Stealth
8th - Offensive Defense*
8th - Combat Trick: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting*
9th - Improved Two-Weapon Feint
10th - Improved Critical: Kukri*
11th - Spring Attack
12th - Opportunist*

* - Rogue Talent

The two Lore Warden levels are taken at 3rd and 4th and solve a lot of early feat problems for you. Avoid chasing combat maneuvers because they never work as well as they seem they will, especially as you level up and especially Disarm. Two-weapon Feint/Improved TWF will serve to give you all of the sneak attacks you need when toe-to-toe with a foe and when using your Skirmisher ability there's no better option than Spring Attack - move from behind a burly warrior, land your sneak attack and move back all without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Every foe should get Bleeding Attack with your first sneak attack followed up by Offensive Defense, both of which can happen in the same round. The Human favored class bonus gets you an extra Rogue talent at 8th, take the extra hit point after that. Focused Study gives you two Skill Focuses at these levels, Bluff at 1st and Stealth at 8th.

I highly recommend kukri with this build - first of all because its just a cool-ass weapon and secondly because of its higher critical chance. Lots of attacks + high crit chance is the perfect complement to a two-weapon fighter, and it still fills your Knifemaster criteria.

The character's not perfect - low Will saves for one - but she was an absolute blast to watch in action. She had some of our best moments by far in the AP and was a devastating compliment to our Barbarian in combat.

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