A TWF Gunslinger with a pistol in each hand.
This Gunslinger is able to cast Reloading Hands as an SLA or via a magic item.
What is the fastest he can reload his pistols?
Can he get a full attack every round and never have to pay for bullets?
1. One more time than he could without using reloading hands. That spell only reloads once per round.
2. Only if his full attack uses no more than one shot per round.
Reloading hands only reloads one barrel of one gun once per round.
Two reload two pistols and get full attack action usually involves using Rapid Reload, alchemical cartridges, and a third hand of some sort. Usually from vestigial arms.
As a side note, twf pistol wielding gunslingers are the number one reason for gunslinger death.
Should've saved up for pistols of the infinite sky.
Should've saved up for pistols of the infinite sky.
Holy cow those are awesome.
It's like every six-shooter in old Westerns!
Peter: "Hey, doesn't that gun ever run out of bullets?"
Davy: "It can't, we're the good guys!"
(Bang bang click click click)
Davy: "I guess we're not so good after all."
--The Monkees
Reloading hands only reloads one barrel of one gun once per round.
Two reload two pistols and get full attack action usually involves using Rapid Reload, alchemical cartridges, and a third hand of some sort. Usually from vestigial arms.
As a side note, twf pistol wielding gunslingers are the number one reason for gunslinger death.
Nah, I thought Reloading Hands gave you free alchemical cartridges, right?
As a side note, twf pistol wielding gunslingers are the number one reason for gunslinger death.
Can't really blame people for wanting to do it with a class called 'Gunslinger', though.
As a side note, twf pistol wielding gunslingers are the number one reason for gunslinger death.Can't really blame people for wanting to do it with a class called 'Gunslinger', though.
I know. I *really* want to do it with my next dude, too, but it's just not workable.
Not to mention the iconic gunslinger not only TWFs pistols, but she TWFs double-barreled pistols (at least, the pic looks like it). No idea how she reloads.
Nah, I thought Reloading Hands gave you free alchemical cartridges, right?Reloading hands only reloads one barrel of one gun once per round.
Two reload two pistols and get full attack action usually involves using Rapid Reload, alchemical cartridges, and a third hand of some sort. Usually from vestigial arms.
As a side note, twf pistol wielding gunslingers are the number one reason for gunslinger death.
Only one per round, and there's no way to stockpile them.
Edit: And those are bullets, not cartridges. This is actually better, as the misfire is lower.
Nah, I thought Reloading Hands gave you free alchemical cartridges, right?Reloading hands only reloads one barrel of one gun once per round.
Two reload two pistols and get full attack action usually involves using Rapid Reload, alchemical cartridges, and a third hand of some sort. Usually from vestigial arms.
As a side note, twf pistol wielding gunslingers are the number one reason for gunslinger death.
Reloading Hands says nothing about alchemical cartridges:
School conjuration (creation); Level magus 2, ranger 2, sorcerer/wizard 2Casting time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target projectile weapon touched
Duration 1 round/caster level (D)
Saving throw Will negates (object, harmless); Spell Resistance yes (object, harmless)
Once per round, phantom hands load a single ranged weapon or firearm with conjured ammunition. This ammunition counts as magical for overcoming damage reduction and attacking incorporeal creatures, but is the standard for its type (a normal bullet or pellets and black powder in the case of firearms). Conjured ammunition ceases to exist 1 round after it is removed from the weapon, or at the end of the duration, whichever comes first.
Not to mention the iconic gunslinger not only TWFs pistols, but she TWFs double-barreled pistols (at least, the pic looks like it). No idea how she reloads.
Gloves of storing? Store the left gun, reload the right, store the right, retrieve the left, load the left, retrieve the right, blow big holes in stuff?
You can only functionally wear one glove of storing at a time. I suppose there could be some silly hand-swapping trick that makes this work, but the only way I've managed to work out requires an over-literal interpretation of glove of storing that allows recalling an item into the other hand.
It'd be enough to get the iteratives at least. A beneficial bandolier would add one reload in the offhand as a swift action. There are some other tricks, but most of them also require a swift action.
You can only functionally wear one glove of storing at a time. I suppose there could be some silly hand-swapping trick that makes this work, but the only way I've managed to work out requires an over-literal interpretation of glove of storing that allows recalling an item into the other hand.
It'd be enough to get the iteratives at least. A beneficial bandolier would add one reload in the offhand as a swift action. There are some other tricks, but most of them also require a swift action.
Perform (Juggling) skill?
The iconic gunslinger in our own reality is based off of advanced firearms. The Wild West gunslinger had an advanced pistol. During the age of early firearms, muskets and the like, you did not dual wield. You fired a shot, pulled another gun to shoot again if you had one, hid somewhere to reload or pulled a melee weapon and closed for combat.
Infantry battles consisted of lines of soldiers firing one round then taking a knee to reload while the line behind you stood and shot. Often there was many lines to allow for reloading time.
Just in case I was ambiguous, when someone uses the word "iconic" on this forum, they generally mean the Paizo-published character that represents one of the classes. In this case, Lirianne, Half-Elf Gunslinger.
I think TWF Gunslingers have a perfect combo, RAW, to be able to load both pistols. Please review both the Draw (and Sheathe actions):
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Now, add Quick Draw into the mix:
Quick Draw (Combat)
You can draw weapons faster than most.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
So, Quick Draw allows you to both Draw and Sheathe (which is part of the Draw Action, as shown above) your weapons as a Free Action. Fire both guns, sheathe off-hand gun, reload primary, fire primary, Fast Draw sheathe primary, Fast Draw off-hand gun, reload off-hand gun, fire it, etc rinse and repeat.
The GM is allowed to limit the number of Free Actions, however. For this purpose, I allow a player to Free Action Draw/Sheathe 1+Dex Mod Times per round.
Sheathing is a move action. None of the rules you've quoted trying to make sheathing a free action say "draw or sheath" they all say "draw". This is cut and dry RAW.
A Sheathe action is a Draw Action per the PRD, they both are under the heading of Draw Action...
@Swashbucklersdc: Incorrect. "Draw a weapon" is a move action, and "sheathe a weapon" is a separate move action. Quick Draw makes drawing a weapon a free action. There is no feat that speeds up sheathing a weapon.
I don't see a "Draw Action" heading anywhere on the PRD's Combat page.
TWF single barrel gunfighter uses 6 times the number of free actions. Each gun reload is a free action making two, sheathing each gun to have the free hand is two more(move actions by RAW), drawing each gun to fire again is a free action for the last two.
If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat (which any TWF Gunslinger should have!), you could both Draw and Sheath as one Free Action: If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
This further reduces the amount of Free Actions needed. This, of course, if you believe Sheating is actually the same as a Draw Action (which, in the PRD, it is, IMO of how it is written).
I see the confusion. The specific area describing those actions explains both actions under a single heading: "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon". That can reasonably mislead someone to believe that the two actions are really two aspects of one action.
Regardless, sheathing is not drawing, so Quick Draw as written does not apply to sheathing.
I see the confusion. The specific area describing those actions explains both actions under a single heading: "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon". That can reasonably mislead someone to believe that the two actions are really two aspects of one action.
Regardless, sheathing is not drawing, so Quick Draw as written does not apply to sheathing.
Yup, see it now, thank you Duikers and blahpers...
I see the confusion. The specific area describing those actions explains both actions under a single heading: "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon". That can reasonably mislead someone to believe that the two actions are really two aspects of one action.
Regardless, sheathing is not drawing, so Quick Draw as written does not apply to sheathing.
Yup, see it now, thank you Duikers and blahpers...
Cheers!
I ... have no idea how to respond to someone politely conceding they were wrong on the Internet. Are you sure that you don't want to call my mother Hitler?I see the confusion. The specific area describing those actions explains both actions under a single heading: "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon". That can reasonably mislead someone to believe that the two actions are really two aspects of one action.
Regardless, sheathing is not drawing, so Quick Draw as written does not apply to sheathing.
Yup, see it now, thank you Duikers and blahpers...
No because Hitler had an amazing Charlie Chaplin mustache, but your mother does not (I'd assume).
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Not to mention the iconic gunslinger not only TWFs pistols, but she TWFs double-barreled pistols (at least, the pic looks like it). No idea how she reloads.
She reloads after everyone's dead.
To all who have participated, thanks for the information given. I'm trying to figure out the Gunslinger being played in my campaign and I think I have a better idea what is going on now.
I think part of what is going on is that this is an E8 campaign, so the gunslinger has maxed out at two attacks per round (four with Improved TWF).
He does have a spell-like ability (granted to all characters as part of the campaign plot) that lets him "cast" Reloading Hands 3/day as an 8th level caster.
He's packing two pepperbox pistols, that have six barrels each and can be rotated as a swift action. This lets him get off four shots per round.
Reloading Hands loads a single ranged weapon once per round with conjured ammo.
So he starts a combat with two pistols, each of which has six loaded barrels. He casts Reloading Hands.
Bang bang bang bang, and each pistol has four bullets left. Reloading Hands reloads one of them.
Next round -- Bang bang bang bang, and the Reloading Hands reload the OTHER pistol. Now one pistol has four bullets left, and the other is fully loaded.
And so on.
Does that make sense? The only problem I can see with it is if Reloading Hands should only be reloading ONE BARREL per round, but it doesn't really say it is limited to one barrel (it just says it "loads a single ranged weapon").
EDIT: If Reloading Hands really only allows a single BARREL of a single weapon to be reloaded, it looks like the character can still get off full attacks for 4-5 rounds in a row:
Round 1: (Cast Reloading Hands)
Round 2: 6/6 --> 4/4 --> 5/4
Round 3: 5/4 --> 3/2 --> 3/3
Round 4: 3/3 --> 1/1 --> 2/1
Round 5: 2/1 ??? 2/2 --> 0/0
Character has TWF, ITWF, Rapid Shot, but no Rapid Reload type feat that I can see. Hm.
Is there a clear and precise ruling anywhere about Reloading Hands only reloading one BARREL? It doesn't seem to be in the spell description.
I don't know the details in reloading hands but the pepper box requires a free hand to rotate the barrels.
Yeah, I would assume rotating the barrel on a pepperbox requires a free hand. So he would be required to not have a gun in the other hand to rotate the pepperbox. Even if he puts his guns on a weapon cord, weapon cords were changed specifically to use a move action to recover a weapon.
Weapon Cord: What kind of action is it to recover a weapon attached to your wrist with a weapon cord?
As originally published, this was a swift action. The design team has changed this to a move action. This will be updated in the next printing of the Advanced Player's Guide.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/17/13
*Post edit because of previously incorrect info.
Could a vanara gunslinger pass a gun to her tail just to hold, and then reload her other gun, and then take the first gun back into her hand afterward?
"Prehensile Tail: A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action."
You aren't technically "wielding" the gun in that case, you're just holding it. But if that's not good enough, what about the more powerful tiefling feat?
"If you have the prehensile tail racial trait, you can use your tail to grab unattended items within 5 feet as a swift action as well as to grab stowed objects carried on your person; you can hold such objects with your tail, though you cannot manipulate them with your tail (other than to put them in your hand)."
I believe so, but you still have to reduce your reload time to be able to full attack consistently with it. Even if you can pass off a weapon to your tail to reload the other weapon you still only reload a one hand firearm as a standard action or a two handed weapon as a full round action.
*Edit, just looked up pepperbox, it is a free action to rotate barrels. So that would change my earlier post. I read someone else post that stated swift and didn't double check it. Sorry for the error. However...
Pepperbox: This pistol has six barrels instead of one. The entire barrel housing can be quickly rotated by hand between shots (a free action requiring one free hand), allowing all six bullets to be fired before the weapon must be reloaded. Each barrel of a pepperbox uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or a single alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
Since it requires a free hand to turn he would have to drop one gun. And I already addressed the issue if he uses a weapon cord. Meaning he needs a tail or 3rd arm to be able to turn the barrels and get a full attack.
Isn't there some sort of little spider trinket that will reload a barrel for you once a round as well?
[edit]
Never mind, was thinking of the Slate Spider, and it just negates misfire chance.
Why reinvent the wheel? Just take rapid reload and use alchemical ammunition. With gloves of storing or an extra limb to hold the gun you can have a full attack.
For further shenanigans use double barrel pistols since you'll be reloading as free actions and he'll get the equivalent of 8 attacks instead of just 4.
*I would like to add, I don't actually advocate this. I don't allow guns or gunslingers in my campaigns. But the above is fully within the scope of the rules.
OK, thanks again folks. I'm going to discuss this with the player so let me ask again about some specifics:
* Where does it specifically state that Reloading Hands doesn't reload the ENTIRE pepperbox? I've read the spell description and it says it reloads a gun, not one barrel of a gun.
* Where does it specifically state that you need a free hand to rotate the barrels on a pepperbox?
I'm sure that if I tell the player involved that these are rules, they are going to want to see them.
Thanks.
Edit: OK, I found some answers:
* The full spell description of Reloading Hands doesn't specify ONE shot or ONE barrel, but the little overview given in the class spell lists (such as Magus Spells, UC page 215) does say "loads a SINGLE SHOT into your weapon every round."
* The description of pepperbox on UC page 138 does specifically state "The entire barrel housing can be quickly rotated by hand between shots (a free action requiring ONE FREE HAND), allowing all six bullets to be fired before the weapon must be reloaded."
The only quibble may be that I think there is a rule that where the language of a spell overview contradicts the language of the spell's full description, the full description is supposed to take precedence. In this case, the full description simply says that it "loads a single ranged weapon or firearm with conjured ammunition". That could be interpreted to mean that it loads the ENTIRE firearm, although this interpretation would require the spell overview to be incorrect.
OK, thanks again folks. I'm going to discuss this with the player so let me ask again about some specifics:
* Where does it specifically state that Reloading Hands doesn't reload the ENTIRE pepperbox? I've read the spell description and it says it reloads a gun, not one barrel of a gun.
* Where does it specifically state that you need a free hand to rotate the barrels on a pepperbox?
I'm sure that if I tell the player involved that these are rules, they are going to want to see them.
Thanks.
The first one i cannot answer better than, reloading is one barrel at a time i every other case. But the most liberal Reading of the Spell may allow it to reload the entire pebberbox.
And the second question is answered in the discription of the Pebberbox
"Pepperbox: This pistol has six barrels instead of one. The entire barrel housing can be quickly rotated by hand between shots (a free action requiring one free hand), allowing all six bullets to be fired before the weapon must be reloaded. Each barrel of a pepperbox uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or a single alchemical cartridge as ammunition."
And last. Werent you the player involved when we talked about thin in the other trea you made?( the one with the Impolite tone about the GM)
And last. Werent you the player involved when we talked about thin in the other trea you made?( the one with the Impolite tone about the GM)
(Thanks for the info, I did find it on my own and edited my post -- check it out, I did find something relevant in the spell overviews)
Ha -- yeah, that was me, but I was just fooling around then. I'm actually the DM and in actuality the player in question is nothing like that either. He's a min/maxer for sure, but he takes it in stride when the rules don't work in his favor.
Assuming he has some method of turning the barrel housings on both pepperboxes, it looks to me like this could be a typical combat:
Round 1: (6/6 shots) -- "Cast" Reloading Hands as a SLA
Round 2: (6/6 shots) -- Shoot 3 times with main hand pepperbox, 2 times with off hand pepperbox due to ITWF and Rapid Shot. Reloading Hands reloads one barrel of main hand pepperbox.
Round 3: (4/4 shots) -- Shoot 3 times with main hand pepperbox, 2 times with off hand pepperbox due to ITWF and Rapid Shot. Reloading Hands reloads one barrel of main hand pepperbox.
Round 4: (2/2 shots) -- Shoot 2 times with main hand pepperbox, 2 times with off hand pepperbox due to ITWF (no Rapid Shot). Reloading Hands reloads one barrel of main hand pepperbox.
Round 5: (1/0 shots) -- ???
Can anyone think of a way this character could have a free hand for reloading (or have found a way around that need)? I do allow 3.5 MIC items and I think I remember there being some kind of third arm belt or some such somewhere in that book.