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So, I don't know why everyone is singling out Pathfinder.
This is your Problem, DD. You think anything non-complimentary said about PF is "singling it out".
No one is even criticizing the fact that wish-factories are possible (and easily done) within the limits of the rules. People are just pointing it out and discussing how it could affect the game.
You see every observation as criticism unless the poster is saying something like "PF is perfect in every way" and every criticism as hate-fueled offense.
You don't have to white-knight Pathfinder. We all love the game, the fact that we see its flaws and accept that it's not perfect doesn't change that.
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I was curious about which potion you were using. See Invisibility is a personal spell so cannot be made into a potion. Is there another spell that will do the same thing?
Nope, you're right. For some reason I was thinking see invisibility was a touch-range power. That makes it even less likely then, unless the pit fiend is spamming it via a wand or has something like a gem of true seeing eye-patch. :P
Personally I would probably give the Pit Fiend a decent level Cleric minion or a scroll/wand. Invisibility Purge will get rid of Invisibility and doesn't care about Mind Blank.
That would be a good idea for an encounter, or maybe for the CR 19 devil that the pit fiend can summon by his lonesome.
Why are you paying 25k for a 5 point armour bonus when you can get the same thing for 16k with a +4 Haramaki. Or just pay 750gp and buy a wand of mage armour which you can activate as soon as a minion alerts you there is trouble. The cloak of resistance isn't doing much for you either as Unholy Aura is already giving you +4 resistance.
1. I wasn't even aware of the haramaki. That would be a better deal in fact. I also like the picture on the d20pfsrd, it looks like it'd be stylish on a pit fiend.
2. I actually covered why I went with a permanent item instead of mage armor wands. At that level, a CL 1 mage armor isn't really valid because dispel magic gets tossed around trivially. Summoned monsters dispel, simulacrums of yourself dispel, barbarians dispel, holy avengers dispel, etc. A basic high level tactic is to open a combat with dispels or disjunction to wipe pre-buffs off of enemies, and the permanent item has a better chance of staying active since the fiend has a decent Will save.
3. You're right about the cloak of resistance. I wasn't even thinking about that, and was just throwing together a fairly generic loadout for 134,000 gp. That noted, I'd probably spend that on a few enhancement bonus items or increase the potency of his +Charisma item. Alternatively, a minor cloak of displacement would be a good one.
Greater Heroism is vey strong but its much lower duration means it is liable to drop off if the pit fiend engages in hit and run tactics using its at will greater teleport. Frankly if a group of powerful adventurers manages to corner me in my liar then standing toe to toe with them is likely to be suicidal. Far better to retreat, prepare and then send wave after wave of minions at them to wear them down before hitting them back on your own terms.
1. The 1 min. / level thing is a minor thing at that level. It's lasting almost a half hour (assuming that the party is merely 17th level, that's 17 minutes or 170 rounds worth of buff, and can be cast over a normal heroism spell).
2. I agree that hit and run tactics are a staple of demon combat. The first goal in a fight with high level fiends is to cut off their mobility. Dimensional anchor is the most common method, is a low-ish level spell at that point, and doesn't allow a saving throw (just make the touch-attack and beat SR).
3. Fighting wave after wave of your minions isn't fighting the pit fiend for all practical purposes. The pit fiend can't even summon waves of creatures and has a limit on how many uncontrolled devils he can create with devil-shaping.
At some point for the battle with the pit fiend to happen, the pit fiend actually has to get close enough to do battle. He will generally need to close within medium range to affect the party in a meaningful way (since fireball spam is not meaningful at this level).
However, for this reason, I'd prefer to make a pit fiend encounter a CR 21 encounter, which involves lots and lots of his diabolical minions. :)
Thanks for pointing all of these things out Andreww. You have a keen eye and a sharp mind. ^_^
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If 55 AC is something that even level 20 characters are suppose to handle, then I'm in the camp that the math does break down at high levels.
Just tell the martial classes to go home. It's up to the casters to handle real threats.
I know, this is an older post, and I know I was ninja'd by Peter, but as everyone knows I love hearing myself talk.
I think that you're missing the point.
The point isn't, "Look, you can make numbers big."
The point is, "The monsters in the bestiary are built around the low-end of the optimization spectrum; if, and only if, you need to buff them up, it's really, really easy by way of spending treasure."
So, you know, if you like running half-feat/half-wealth warrior-power level creatures, you can do that... or rather, I should say, if your fighter has a quarter of his feats dedicated to optimization and less than half his wealth, they can reliably take on the bestiary threats with a decent chance of victory.
Remember (and I know you are Markthus, but I'm mentioning to others as well), an equal CR encounter is supposed to be able to be defeated. The fact that they can win is not a bad thing.
The apparent (though not, to my experience, actual) "breakdown" in Pathfinder math, to me, comes only from the fact that Pathfinder is so daggum big. It has so many variables and can be altered so very much that it isn't possible to say, "This is exactly how you should be running your games."
Instead, you can say, "IF you need it, you can run your games this way."
Pathfinder can be adjusted for the weakest or the most powerful of parties. That's a good thing.
I mean, if you're tweaking your monsters (or NPCs) you have an automatic suite of variables that you can tweak:
1) treasure (which Ashiel and others have noted)
2) ability scores (up or down by 7 or 8 points, or even up to +13, if you need by the extra five inherent bonuses)
3) hit points (usually they have a bit more than half for their hit dice; this can be adjusted up or down)
4) skill points (you can alter them, though this rarely tweaks their CR
5) feats
6) hit dice/levels
All of those create a very complicated suite of abilities to alter, even at level 1. All of those are legal alterations, too.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, though I'd intended to: one other thing that Paizo has done that is an immense favor is making this easy. They came out with the Advanced template - both simple and rebuild versions. This means we can guestimate how much changes to the "base" monster stats will empower the monster, though, of course, those are just base guesstimations.
Now, if you alter their hit points, AC, and attack/damage by too much, you will, of course, change their CR. Paizo has accounted for that.
But if a party is optimized enough to take on CRs that are higher than their own, that's... not that big of a deal.
CR is a very rough calculation, anyway - it's meant as kind of a water-line on the beach: whether you're playing at high tide or low tide is your option. None of this is "broken" - this is all within expected variation based on the d20 system.
What does happen is that GMs become uncomfortable with the math at a certain extent because people, being people, utilize those variations; that creates situations that GMs - because of individual preference - are uncomfortable with.
There is nothing wrong with this. It does not make the GM, the players, or the system broken.
Instead, this makes the system variable.
Which is the whole point - that's why it's such a great system. Everyone can have their own play style... and that's pretty great.
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You know, this thread is so big, I've no idea if you did this because you are on this thread like white on me, or if you're only just now catching up and made some changes to the past. Either way, I salute your efforts. Thanks! :)
Can you PM me on this Chris? I'm pretty sure it was one of mine, and I don't want to derail this thread (while I seem to have no ability to PM you).
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But wait, why to focus in a fighter, lets have a party of 4 18 level character agaisnt 4 cr 20 improved encounters. Not all monster at the same time of course, but one afther the other (so we can not assume all the buff are on all the time)
what about Ranger,cleric, wizard and a bard?
Personally I think focusing on the fighter was merely a bi-product. Honestly the fighter is kind of the underdog of the martials when it comes to slaying high level monsters like this. As I pointed out, both rangers and paladins are much better suited to doing so with relatively little prep (ranger quarry every 10 minutes, paladins with their spell buffs, smites, etc).
Keep in mind, comparing 18th level characters to 4 CR 20 encounters is a bit busted. Four 20th level characters vs 4 CR 20 encounters, sure that's a bit more fair. A single pit fiend is a very difficult encounter for a party of 17th-18th level characters.
A quick rundown.
1. Clerics are very powerful at this level. While a cleric can indeed buff themselves up enough to engage the pit fiend in direct combat, they are more likely to prayer beads + gate a Solar into the encounter if it's looking really bad. Alternatively, miracle plus the 25,000 gp component might do something amazing like locking the pit fiend out of his greater teleport for a while. Likewise due to greater spell immunity the cleric doesn't have to worry about the pit fiend's most diabolic attack, the dreaded trap the soul.
2. Rangers are in a pretty good spot. Their biggest concern from the pit fiend is the dreaded trap the soul landing. They have in-class access to resist energy and freedom of movement which alone wipes out large portions of the pit fiend's arsenal.
Their ability to harm the pit fiend is strong. A switch-hitter ranger is going to destroy any pit fiend who dares try to melee him, and his bow attacks are exceptionally dangerous (favored enemy + quarry works on main attack, haste attack, rapid shot attack, and it's very easy to tailor your offense vs weaknesses with magic bows / arrows).
3. The wizard is in a funny position. The pit fiend cannot dare use trap the soul on them for fear of sacrificing itself to the wizard thanks to spell turning. The wizard's largest fear is the pit fiend getting on top of him without having a chance to escape, but thanks to stoneskin and a decent AC, and freedom of movement (likely via a crafted magic item) the wizard can survive a few beatings.
Offensively the wizard has some of the widest options. High power spells like simulacrum, gate, and limited wish can set the pit fiend up for failure. This is doubly true if the wizard has also specced piercing spell resistance (with Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, a +1 CL ioun stone, and Piercing Spell, you have a net +10 vs SR without being an elf), but such things are really icing on the cake. The biggest danger for the pit fiend is that the wizard can devastate him on a failed save. Limited wish -> sunburst for example will permanently blind the pit fiend (making targeting the wizard hard, cut the pit fiend's speed in half, make it perma-flat-footed, etc). Alternatively, polymorph any object can permanently turn the pit fiend into a Lemure devil and then the wizard kills it. Basically, the wizard has options, and if he's in a party, he is generally well defended / capable of exploiting openings.
4. The bard! Firstly the bard is one of the more fun fellows to do this with. He's actually capable of fighting the pit fiend physically due to a combination of armored casting (mithral celestial plate baby), bardic music giving him a pseudo-full BAB for the effects of hitting, and arcane strike stacking with inspire courage for a +10 to damage on all attacks. His to-hit is further buffed by effects such as haste, greater heroism. Thanks to use magic device the Bard can be wielding the craziest of things, including a holy avenger that he crafted himself if he really wants to. Defensively the bard has great saving throws and access to freedom of movement, resist energy, and dimension door in-class. Who knows about his magic items.
Mix it All Together
Mixing it all together, the cleric uses greater spell immunity on everyone, the wizard's simulacra clones take turns casting communal resist energy and minor buffs on the party, such as keen edge on their weapons. The ranger and the bard shoot at the pit fiend if it refuses to close, enjoying the +5 to hit and damage that stacks with quarry and favored enemy (which hurts). If the pit fiend attempts to flee, the mage can greater teleport the party around. If the party sees a good chance to put the pit fiend down, the Ranger can Intimidate the fiend (shaken, -2 to all saves), the wizard casts limited wish (-7 to all saves), the bard uses heroic finale and then the wizard casts polymorph any object to turn the pit fiend into a lemure. Then the cleric kills it.
If dealing with a lot of mooks as well, toss in holy word from the cleric to wipe summons and devastate low-HD minions, and death ward on the ranger and give him a life drinker so all of his melee swings inflict 2 negative levels on his enemies when he hits them (an effective +10 to damage, and -2 to attacks, saves, skill checks, ability checks, and caster level, per hit landed).
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.... The fighter is the underdog? A fighter easily out paces even barbarians once you start getting up into super high leveled content. Their HP and saves will be inferior due to rage, but otherwise they're a very solid choice. This becomes even more apparent if you take a look at some of the archetypes; one of them, as I've mentioned before, allows you to walk around auto-critting with a scythe. I would say fighters actually have the highest pure numbers damage potential in the entire game at this point in time. Even their crappy saves aren't an issue when one considers how easy it is to raise them to ridiculous levels.
.... The fighter is the underdog? A fighter easily out paces even barbarians once you start getting up into super high leveled content. Their HP and saves will be inferior due to rage, but otherwise they're a very solid choice. This becomes even more apparent if you take a look at some of the archetypes; one of them, as I've mentioned before, allows you to walk around auto-critting with a scythe. I would say fighters actually have the highest pure numbers damage potential in the entire game at this point in time. Even their crappy saves aren't an issue when one considers how easy it is to raise them to ridiculous levels.
I think auto-crit would be better spent on weapons with broad crit threat range. Also, a x4 Crit is not really any better than a x3. Both will most likely kill the enemy anyway... Although a x3 is considerably better than a x2.
I don't think Fighters are underdogs in DPR, I've seen optimized Fighter out damaging equally optimized Evil-smiting Paladins... But to be fair, the Paladin didn't have the chance to buff himself, which would probably put him ahead again...
I'm not sure about Barbarians... Witch-Hunter is a damn impressive boost to damage against pretty much everything in the game. Ultra-focused Fighters probably still win the DPR race, though... Unless, of course, they are forced to move 10ft.
.... The fighter is the underdog? A fighter easily out paces even barbarians once you start getting up into super high leveled content. Their HP and saves will be inferior due to rage, but otherwise they're a very solid choice. This becomes even more apparent if you take a look at some of the archetypes; one of them, as I've mentioned before, allows you to walk around auto-critting with a scythe. I would say fighters actually have the highest pure numbers damage potential in the entire game at this point in time. Even their crappy saves aren't an issue when one considers how easy it is to raise them to ridiculous levels.
You have to keep in mind that a Fighter has the least adaptability, especially the Two-handed Fighter. It's really quite easy for a Pit Fiend to keep his distance and avoid physical attacks. Then theres the fact that the Pit Fiend can drop the Fighter from the combat against his bad saves.
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.... The fighter is the underdog? A fighter easily out paces even barbarians once you start getting up into super high leveled content. Their HP and saves will be inferior due to rage, but otherwise they're a very solid choice. This becomes even more apparent if you take a look at some of the archetypes; one of them, as I've mentioned before, allows you to walk around auto-critting with a scythe. I would say fighters actually have the highest pure numbers damage potential in the entire game at this point in time. Even their crappy saves aren't an issue when one considers how easy it is to raise them to ridiculous levels.You have to keep in mind that a Fighter has the least adaptability, especially the Two-handed Fighter. It's really quite easy for a Pit Fiend to keep his distance and avoid physical attacks. Then theres the fact that the Pit Fiend can drop the Fighter from the combat against his bad saves.
The fighter's ability to automatically crit must be done using only the single attack action; never as part of a full attack. It may be done as part of a charge as well. So provided that fighter has been given the ability to fly (or the party's caster decides to warp him right behind said pit fiend), the pit fiend might just have a bad day. :P There are a lot of variables not being taken into account here.
@ Lemmy
The fighter ability that lets you do that isn't to auto-confirm. It's literally an automatic crit (assuming fighter capstone ability) if you even so much as land the blow; you will need to roll to confirm without the capstone, but your initial hit automatically threatens regardless of roll (assuming it hits). You do a single attack with a -5 on the roll (so a drop in the bucket), from an archetype that doubles power attack instead of times and a halfing it; you also apply twice your strength on the swing. The build is pretty well the king of overkill. And again, their saves can easily be raised up to acceptable levels with wise item choices. You could easily be rolling your damage with a modifier in the high thirties or low forties before multiplying it due to the critical.
Beard, you still have yet to back up your claim of 10th level parties defeating 6x advanced pit fiends, so your further analysis, presumably based on such claims, is highly suspect.
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Beard, you still have yet to back up your claim of 10th level parties defeating 6x advanced pit fiends, so your further analysis, presumably based on such claims, is highly suspect.
At no point did I claim a party actually fought a 6x advanced pit fiend. The statement was clearly intended to illustrate just how broken characters can get; the party I spoke of fought and defeated a normal pit fiend at level 10 with little effort. They all beat it in initiative and tore through it with pure damage, as is often the case for optimized groups. Never understood why that DM made'em fight a pit fiend at level 10. Worked out pretty well anyway, I suppose. Furthermore, my claim regarding fighter damage is confirmed by information present in the advanced player's guide; two-handed fighter archetype. Go look it up yourself instead of trying to make personal attacks on people.
The fighter ability that lets you do that isn't to auto-confirm. It's literally an automatic crit (assuming fighter capstone ability) if you even so much as land the blow; you will need to roll to confirm without the capstone, but your initial hit automatically threatens regardless of roll (assuming it hits). You do a single attack with a -5 on the roll (so a drop in the bucket), from an archetype that doubles power attack instead of times and a halfing it; you also apply twice your strength on the swing. The build is pretty well the king of overkill. And again, their saves can easily be raised up to acceptable levels with wise...
Ah, I see. I thought you were talking about the vanilla Fighter's ability to auto-confirm critical hits. I missed the part where you mentioned the 2-handed archetype (or interpreted it to simply be a Fighter using a 2-handed weapon).
.... The fighter is the underdog? A fighter easily out paces even barbarians once you start getting up into super high leveled content. Their HP and saves will be inferior due to rage, but otherwise they're a very solid choice. This becomes even more apparent if you take a look at some of the archetypes; one of them, as I've mentioned before, allows you to walk around auto-critting with a scythe. I would say fighters actually have the highest pure numbers damage potential in the entire game at this point in time. Even their crappy saves aren't an issue when one considers how easy it is to raise them to ridiculous levels.You have to keep in mind that a Fighter has the least adaptability, especially the Two-handed Fighter. It's really quite easy for a Pit Fiend to keep his distance and avoid physical attacks. Then theres the fact that the Pit Fiend can drop the Fighter from the combat against his bad saves.
A fighter has so many feats they could and probably should have some back-up ranged options. Fighters are very versatile. The only area they are especially weak is forcing Will saves, although even there, there are some good demoralize options.
And pit fiends are one of the fighter's weaker areas: the fighters is in their element against corporeal undead or humanoids with class levels, or disposing of minions.
Beard, you still have yet to back up your claim of 10th level parties defeating 6x advanced pit fiends, so your further analysis, presumably based on such claims, is highly suspect.At no point did I claim a party actually fought a 6x advanced pit fiend. The statement was clearly intended to illustrate just how broken characters can get; the party I spoke of fought and defeated a normal pit fiend at level 10 with little effort. They all beat it in initiative and tore through it with pure damage, as is often the case for optimized groups. Never understood why that DM made'em fight a pit fiend at level 10. Worked out pretty well anyway, I suppose. Furthermore, my claim regarding fighter damage is confirmed by information present in the advanced player's guide; two-handed fighter archetype. Go look it up yourself instead of trying to make personal attacks on people.
Personal attacks? No. Calling you an idiot or liar is a personal attack. Pointing out that you failed to defend your claim (and even a normal pit fiend at level 10 is suspect) is a fact. Pointing out that making unbacked claims causes your credibility to fade is also a fact. Perhaps while I learn more about the two-handed fighter archetype, you can go learn more about words and what they mean.
Oh, I'm done with that, btw. I have a 15th level two handed fighter archetype in my game. He does a lot of damage. Hasn't managed to break the game yet, but I suppose that's because he foolishly likes fighting with a sword instead of a pick? I doubt his 19th level ability will suddenly cause the world to fall off its axis. We'll see. None of them can beat a pit fiend yet though.
An entire group of fully optimized, well synergized and otherwise absurdly well prepared characters can break the game pretty damn hard at higher levels. The only way around it as a GM is to try and exploit their weaknesses, but uh... I've seen groups that literally do not have any weaknesses; they have everything covered. There is nothing in the entire bestiary (including the great old ones) that this party would not destroy inside of 3-4 (pit fiends, balors and even solars are doomed in the first round even if they attack en masse) rounds maximum. I could add the advanced template to a pit fiend six times over and they'd be able to kill it using their level ten characters, let alone the high level ones. If they were able to do that to pit fiends by level 10, what's that say for things actually in tier for them?
Err, you didn't mention another pit fiend. Just the one with the advanced template six times. And if what you actually meant was that they could take down a normal pit fiend, you haven't shown that either.
A fighter has so many feats they could and probably should have some back-up ranged options. Fighters are very versatile. The only area they are especially weak is forcing Will saves, although even there, there are some good demoralize options.
And pit fiends are one of the fighter's weaker areas: the fighters is in their element against corporeal undead or humanoids with class levels, or disposing of minions.
Fighters do make great switch-hitters... But that's about as far as their versatility goes... They don't have an answer to any problem (in or out of combat) that doesn't revolve around DPR and AC... I suppose they are good with maneuvers... Unfortunately, most maneuvers kinda suck and high-level CMD is a pretty good example of why high level math "breaks down" (Although, as I said before, "break down" is not how I'd put it).
Demoralizing is a nice trick... Not a particularly impressive one, but it's really cool and always useful. I particularly love Cornugon Smash. Anything that lowers saves is extremely dangerous at high level.
Lack of mobility and any real option other than stabbing/shooting things is pretty bad at high level.
What I like about fighters for campaigns is how well they can use gear. This is only rivaled by paladins, but who really wants to mess with all the code nonsense?
My party has been hurting for the lack of a fighter because no-one in the party uses some of the great loot we find. We're running an AP and you shouldn't expect the GM to change up what loot people find.
The pit fiend situation is unusually favorable to the maneuver-focused fighter, in comparison to other non-classed high-CR opponents. Tripping, sundering, and disarming are on the table.
Flight and some teleportation is within reach of fighters at high levels, but it's true they are tagalongs in the transportation department.
What I like about fighters for campaigns is how well they can use gear.
How exactly are Fighters better than anyone else at using gear???
What I like about fighters for campaigns is how well they can use gear.How exactly are Fighters better than anyone else at using gear???
Proficient in every thing.
Most classes don't start with heavy armor proficiency. Most classes aren't proficient in all martial weapons. And even when they are they tend to be very particular (like dervish dance magi)
Fighters also have armor training and weapon training, and enough feats to be great at using most weapon. Their whole kit (san bravery) is devoted to them being able to use non-UMD gear.
1 |Toughness, Intimidating Prowess, Combat Reflexes
2 |Bravery, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Quick Draw
9 |Weapon training(Bows), Point-Blank Shot
10|Bravery, Rapid Shot
11|Armor training, Deadly Aim
12|Far Shot
13|Weapon training(Spears), Leadership
14|Bravery, Mounted Combat
15|Armor training, Mounted Archery
16|Ride-By Attack
17|Weapon training(Close), Spirited Charge
18|Bravery, Trample
19|Armor mastery, Improved Iron Will
20|weapon mastery(GS), Improved Critical(GS)
Mythic Feats: Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Mounted Combat, Toughness, Deadly Aim
Mythic Path Abilities: Longevity, Impossible Speed, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Precision, Precision, Limitless Range, Crusader, Shatter Spells, Farwalker
What I like about fighters for campaigns is how well they can use gear.How exactly are Fighters better than anyone else at using gear???Proficient in every thing.
Most classes don't start with heavy armor proficiency. Most classes aren't proficient in all martial weapons. And even when they are they tend to be very particular (like dervish dance magi)
Fighters also have armor training and weapon training, and enough feats to be great at using most weapon. Their whole kit (san bravery) is devoted to them being able to use non-UMD gear.
So by "better at using gear" you mean "better at using armor and able to deal lots of damage"? That's true, I guess...
No one is disputing the fact that Fighters have good AC and DPR, but I wouldn't say that makes them "good at using gear".
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Oh, I'm done with that, btw. I have a 15th level two handed fighter archetype in my game. He does a lot of damage. Hasn't managed to break the game yet, but I suppose that's because he foolishly likes fighting with a sword instead of a pick? I doubt his 19th level ability will suddenly cause the world to fall off its axis. We'll see. None of them can beat a pit fiend yet though.
I'm just going to disregard attempts to bait me into a confrontation with some random from the interwebs. Instead, I will tell you this: A moderately optimized two-handed fighter should have anywhere from 26 to 30 strength (assuming minimum 20 point buy and a campaign that allows ready access to important magical equipment) by level 20. 28 is probably the most reasonable amount of strength to assume for these purposes; this will give you a +9 modifier, correct? That +9 becomes a +18 due to the an ability of the archetype. Assume a +5 weapon enhancement bonus, the norm for that level as well. 18 + 5 = 23. Add now to this further bonuses from buffs such as enlarge person (an additional +2 size modifier, therefore working along side as opposed to being overwritten by a +6 belt of whatever). This will bump strength up to 30 while also increasing the damage dice on your scythe slightly; the end result is that you're suddenly running +20 damage by default even before applying weapon enhancement bonus. This brings it to 25 total. Power attack will be giving you an additional +20 as of level 20 due to the archetype also doubling that. You have a +45 to your damage rolls alluva sudden; now let's factor in fighter weapon training as well as gloves of dueling, as those are extremely inexpensive. Between weapon training and the gloves you'll be at another +6. At this point you would be rolling at 2d6+51 with your scythe due to having been enlarged, as 2d4 goes up to 2d6. That 2d6+51 suddenly turns into 10d6+255 if you land a successful hit due to the whole-auto critting thing. This is far more likely to work than expecting all of your swings in a round to land for obvious reasons. Assuming average rolls you could expect to wind up at what, about 295 damage on a hit? More if you've also got impacting on your weapon 'cause then you'd be rolling at 15d6 instead of 10d6. You could throw in the vital strike feats to increase your modifiers even further; devastating strike is, to my knowledge, factored in when multiplying on a critical. The rest of the vital strike feats would be significantly augmented by impacting and your large size, though you would add those after having already calculated your roll for the critical. You will be ignoring the pit fiend's DR for reasons that are obvious enough for me not to have to describe, I'd imagine. All together, assuming all vital strike feats + devastating strike + both weapon specialization feats + all the crap I described before you'd be looking at a modifier alone of about 295. You would effectively be rolling at 18d6+295 at level 20. That will one shot a pit fiend. Note that I am in no way implying this would work if you attacked the thing alone, although lacking the enlarge person wouldn't gimp your damage TOO much. I believe you might still be able to one shot it; if not, it will damn well know you were there. But uh... that's making a lot of assumptions. It's assuming A.) you can reach it without charging (can't vital strike off a charge); and B.) you don't fail a will save somewhere along the way. So, don't think I'm implying this fighter should be trying to solo a pit fiend; it's just not a good plan. I'm merely making note of the kind of numbers they can push even when not fully optimized.
The numbers will take a fair dive if one assumes level 19 as opposed to 20, but not so severely as to render the fighter unable to shave off the majority of its health in one swing. However, at 19 you've still got to worry about confirming your critical hits; the archetype's ability only makes it so that your single attack threatens. You won't get auto-crits until level 20. The capstone fills in the gap.
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On the topic of high level play.
I tend to thing games turn in to rocket tag if you do not make and effort to avoid it and the way most higher level adventures are written nor does the gamemaster guide address how to avoid it if you want.
Also avoiding it requires more work and if you do not know how to avoid it then many a game will break down at higher levels.
I think the result of a lack of effort is that you die in round two, not because of "rocket tag," but because of a lack of effort. It can happen at low levels; a group of orc warriors can be a very swingy combat depending on how you play it.
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I think the result of a lack of effort is that you die in round two, not because of "rocket tag," but because of a lack of effort. It can happen at low levels; a group of orc warriors can be a very swingy combat depending on how you play it.On the topic of high level play.
I tend to thing games turn in to rocket tag if you do not make and effort to avoid it and the way most higher level adventures are written nor does the gamemaster guide address how to avoid it if you want.
Also avoiding it requires more work and if you do not know how to avoid it then many a game will break down at higher levels.
This is quite true. Recklessness and/or lack of effort get you killed regardless of what tier you play at. Despite my explanations about fighters and their damage I still don't really believe in rocket tag. It's easy to prevent things from going in that direction, and damage is really only one facet of the game. There are a lot of ways to fight without directly engaging a party. For example, a wise old lich may force them to expend most of their resources on its minions as they climb its tower. The lich need only observe their progress and ready a very nasty spell to be triggered when they enter the room; preferably either save or suck or save or die, because you'll probably get the Thwak Bashington types with it. Meanwhile, more of the lich's minions can move in on the party's healers and/or ranged. Fights should be multi-faceted and involved a lot of advanced tactics.
I'm just going to disregard attempts to bait me into a confrontation with some random from the interwebs.
[plus maths!]
So 10th level parties can't kill a normal pit fiend and they can't kill a x6 advanced pit fiend.
There is no 'bait'. You made the claim and got called on it. The fact that you are conceding without saying as much possibly says something about who you are as a person, though exactly what that might be for good or ill is open to debate. Unlike, for example, the claim that a 10th level party can wreck a x6 advanced pit fiend.
I'm glad your 19th and 20th level 2-hand archetype fighters can deal a lot of damage. That's pretty much what they do, so it is good that they can. A -11 penalty to hit isn't chump change, but as demonstrated earlier, there exist plenty of ways for even the most vanilla of fighters to hit high ACs.
The 19-20th level parties no doubt appreciate their fighter being able to deal lots of damage. No doubt it reminds them of their 10th level days when they fled before a x6 advanced pit fiend.
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So 10th level parties can't kill a normal pit fiend and they can't kill a x6 advanced pit fiend.
Hey, if you want to incorrectly believe a party can't handle a pit fiend, more power to you. It seems there is some severe underestimation o what a group that optimized with no care for their GM or any non-optimal players that may join them in the future can actually do going on. Ever seen what happens when a group of six to seven players all cranking out around 75-90 damage all win initiative on just about anything? Extra points if all of them are either attacking touch AC or having such ridiculously high to hit modifiers that the thing's AC barely matters.
As for the penalty to hit you mentioned, the power attack part of it can be mitigated by taking furious focus. That will remove any and all penalties associated with the feat for your first (and in this case only) attack. Fact is, you're really not even getting a penalty to your hit chance. You take a -1 from being large and gain it right back from the +2 STR. It ultimately amounts to getting a slight damage boost at the cost of some AC, which admittedly could hurt a good bit.
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Hey, if you want to incorrectly believe that, more power to you. That's like saying a group of seven of level 12s can't kill a balor demon and others on this board have already confirmed that not only can they, but it has happened more than once.So 10th level parties can't kill a normal pit fiend and they can't kill a x6 advanced pit fiend.
Which is an excellent anecdotal confirmation that not every GM knows how to fully utilize a Balor Lord, but in no way relevant to the validity of the game system.
So 10th level parties can't kill a normal pit fiend and they can't kill a x6 advanced pit fiend.
Hey, if you want to incorrectly believe a party can't handle a pit fiend, more power to you. It seems there is some severe underestimation o what a group that optimized with no care for their GM or any non-optimal players that may join them in the future can actually do going on. Ever seen what happens when a group of six to seven players all cranking out around 75-90 damage all win initiative on just about anything? Extra points if all of them are either attacking touch AC or having such ridiculously high to hit modifiers that the thing's AC barely matters.
As for the penalty to hit you mentioned, the power attack part of it can be mitigated by taking furious focus. That will remove any and all penalties associated with the feat for your first (and in this case only) attack. Fact is, you're really not even getting a penalty to your hit chance. You take a -1 from being large and gain it right back from the +2 STR. It ultimately amounts to getting a slight damage boost at the cost of some AC, which admittedly could hurt a good bit.
Still not backing it up, Beard. You made the claim, you need to back it up. I say there is no way you build a 10th level party, even an oversized one of seven characters, and have them kill a x6 advanced pit fiend. Or a regular pit fiend for that matter. Show the builds. Describe the encounter. Or just admit you engaged in hyperbole. It's not that hard, really.
Huh. You know, this gives me an idea; a bunch of people should optimize pit fiends and/or balor demons and see what comes of it. I imagine our greatly varied philosophies of character/enemy building would result in a very wide variety of different builds. It would be interesting to see.
I was thinking that as well. It would also make for a very interesting short-term PbP; if Kain thinks he can build a party of four 10th level characters that could take out a pit fiend, I'd love to see that worked out.
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Huh. You know, this gives me an idea; a bunch of people should optimize pit fiends and/or balor demons and see what comes of it. I imagine our greatly varied philosophies of character/enemy building would result in a very wide variety of different builds. It would be interesting to see.I was thinking that as well. It would also make for a very interesting short-term PbP; if Kain thinks he can build a party of four 10th level characters that could take out a pit fiend, I'd love to see that worked out.
Oh, Kain is talking about something I said. I said I saw a party of level 10s take out a pit fiend. Kain contests that it is not possible for a this to occur, which is fine. I'm not going to go ask the GM and/or seven players for their character sheets and other materials to prove it.
Anywho, I'm all for having a pit fiend build-off if other people want to do the same. That being said, I would recommend someone at least starts up another thread to facilitate it. This thread is already congested enough as it is.
Well... it would really depend on who was playing the Pit Fiend. I'm not sure I could beat myself playing a Pit Fiend with a group of level 10s. But... then again I'm not sure I could beat a group of my level 10s with a Pit Fiend...
Still not backing it up, Beard. You made the claim, you need to back it up. I say there is no way you build a 10th level party, even an oversized one of seven characters, and have them kill a x6 advanced pit fiend. Or a regular pit fiend for that matter. Show the builds. Describe the encounter. Or just admit you engaged in hyperbole. It's not that hard, really.So 10th level parties can't kill a normal pit fiend and they can't kill a x6 advanced pit fiend.
Hey, if you want to incorrectly believe a party can't handle a pit fiend, more power to you. It seems there is some severe underestimation o what a group that optimized with no care for their GM or any non-optimal players that may join them in the future can actually do going on. Ever seen what happens when a group of six to seven players all cranking out around 75-90 damage all win initiative on just about anything? Extra points if all of them are either attacking touch AC or having such ridiculously high to hit modifiers that the thing's AC barely matters.
As for the penalty to hit you mentioned, the power attack part of it can be mitigated by taking furious focus. That will remove any and all penalties associated with the feat for your first (and in this case only) attack. Fact is, you're really not even getting a penalty to your hit chance. You take a -1 from being large and gain it right back from the +2 STR. It ultimately amounts to getting a slight damage boost at the cost of some AC, which admittedly could hurt a good bit.
Well. 1 out of 20 a Slumber Hex does the trick heh.
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Well. 1 out of 20 a Slumber Hex does the trick heh.
I've heard that some people grab the try again feat in pretty much every slot with a witch for that reason. I mean... it's not a bad strategy since most creatures aren't going to have an easy time passing your saves, but dang; you'd think they would want some versatility.
I've heard that some people grab the try again feat in pretty much every slot with a witch for that reason. I mean... it's not a bad strategy since most creatures aren't going to have an easy time passing your saves, but dang; you'd think they would want some versatility.
Well. 1 out of 20 a Slumber Hex does the trick heh.
When all you have is a hammer, and that hammer works on just about everything...
Good luck with that. The standard issue Pit Fiend, as it turns out, has Improved Will, so make that one in 400...
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When all you have is a hammer, and that hammer works on just about everything...I've heard that some people grab the try again feat in pretty much every slot with a witch for that reason. I mean... it's not a bad strategy since most creatures aren't going to have an easy time passing your saves, but dang; you'd think they would want some versatility.
Well. 1 out of 20 a Slumber Hex does the trick heh.
... You know that's a good point. I think there's even some way for'em to get elves, dragons and undead with it. Just don't recall the exact method.