I was curious how people handle vendors I had a player email me and ask me if the vendor sells it than is physically in the shop and I can steal it? What would you say how would you handle it
Since nobody in their right mind is going to have anything particularly valuable 'on the shelves', Stealth/Sleight of Hand/Bluff checks as necessary. Enjoy the apple you stole.
They might not have it on the shelves but in the basement if he knows there's a ghost iron sword n the store cause the guy sells it what stops him from stealth perception slight of hand stealth again then bluff ... To get it or just a simpler intimidate to had it over or to not call the guards
It is, of course, theoretically possible. It also should almost certainly not be worth the effort except maybe as a plot device for a GM. (i.e. the quest giver needs you to recover the Magnificent McGuffin that nobody could possibly afford to just buy). That 16,000 gp Belt of Giant Strength +4 isn't going to be simply hanging on a peg by the front door for instance.
Edit to Add: Sure, the rogue will know that there's a particularly fancy and valuable item available. There would also certainly be a fair amount of protection around said item. Its even possible that the really valuable items are items that are not physically in the store until delivery, or are in a dimensional space, etc.
As I said, its theoretically possible, but the main thing that is stopping the rogue from doing it is that it would completely mess up the economy/balance of the game. You just have to give him in character explanations as to why its so hard. Think about it another way, if it was so easy to steal the items in question, why would anyone ever pay for them? Security has to be tight enough that stealing the items doesn't happen often. No matter how good the rogue is at disable device, sleight of hand, etc., he's still probably not the best at it. There's always a bigger fish, etc. I suppose around levels 18-20 this could change, but by then, most campaigns are winding down anyway.
Finally, its also likely that the shopkeeper would have access to scrying magic in the event that the item is stolen so that he can track down said thief. In other words, really not worth the time and effort.
They might not have it on the shelves but in the basement if he knows there's a ghost iron sword n the store cause the guy sells it what stops him from stealth perception slight of hand stealth again then bluff ... To get it or just a simpler intimidate to had it over or to not call the guards
yeah, that's not going to be in the basement. That's going to be in a vault somewhere.
If a wizard can create a potion of cure light, they could make a ward on the entrance to their establishment that turns any item that hasn't been paid for into a cursed version of the item. THough that in itself might be an incentive for the rogue to steal such item... That aside, I once had this issue come up, except it was the Druid in the party who wanted to steal all the items in the shop. The item shop sold a variety of potions and magical items (read as an epic level wizard selling mid-level adventurer goods), so the owner had all his items made with a contingency spell that cast disintegrate on whoever touched such items without him speaking a specific password to deactivate the items. Party didn't know that all the items had had Magic Aura cast on them to make the contingency spells and their contingent spells not visible to anything but True Seeing (which no one had bothered to buy a scroll of at that point), so they got the short end of the stick.
Long story short, the party was irritated by the loss of their party druid and Cleric (who tried to rescue said druid) and the Wizard shopowner got to show off a new corpse to anyone trying to steal from him again in the future.
There is a lot of great plot hooks in PCs stealing stuff. Ask the players if they want to have some burglery/ pickpocket style adventure and let them overcome the challenges and stuff. Treat it like any other adventure they are on. Exept they are not really the heroes in this one:)
Some things I do for this:
* Items kept in extra-dimensional-storage ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/secret-chest spell for an example of how this might be done. If it only needs to be recalled at a certain point in space, it's not unreasonable that the level of the spell goes down and becomes quite accessible to any shopkeeper dealing in magic items ).
* Any item that has a command word (more than a lot of people think) - the command word is secret until the sale is complete.
* Items are 'deactivated' and inert until a sale is final.
* Magical trigger spells all over the place. Depending on the level of the shop, this can do things from locking doors, alerting authorities, casting darkness in the shop if the owner can see in the dark, damaging or disabling the thief, dimensionally locking the building, teleporting the item somewhere safe, ect.
If a 10,000gp item is in store, let alone many of them, expect thousands of GP worth of protection. Detect magic sensors on the door to pick up anything suspicious, shopkeepers with see-invisibility-glasses, ect. It is a silly concept that super-valuable items are mundanely protected.
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There is a lot of great plot hooks in PCs stealing stuff. Ask the players if they want to have some burglery/ pickpocket style adventure and let them overcome the challenges and stuff. Treat it like any other adventure they are on. Exept they are not really the heroes in this one:)
This. Any shop that can afford to stock anything but the cheapest potions and scrolls can afford some pretty serious magical defenses. The store selling truly expensive stuff probably has mutliple magical traps, bound outsiders as guardians, extradimensional spaces, and so forth. Imagine how well protected a high-end jewelry store is IRL and then add magic.
If the stuff was easy to steal it already would have been. Although, that seems like a fun adventure hook - someone stole the item the PCs want to buy and replaced it with a fake.
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I just don't do magic item shops. Too tempting a target for thieves, and too little sales volume to be worth it; the vast VAST majority of people in the world can't afford magic items, can't use magic items, or have no use for a magic item.
I just don't do magic item shops. Too tempting a target for thieves, and too little sales volume to be worth it; the vast VAST majority of people in the world can't afford magic items, can't use magic items, or have no use for a magic item.
This is also a pretty good point. While there may be a Leo Getz in every major city, the key there is that its Leo Getz, not Leo Haz. PC wants a Ring of Protection +3? "Yeah, I can get that, but it'll cost you!"
In other words, the vendor simply doesn't have it on him or her at that time, but knows how to get it. Another example would be Red from Shawshank. He could sell almost anything (within reason) but you couldn't steal it from him.
Sure you can try to steal it. The value of the item will determine a lot how well protected it is. And even if the theft is a success, someone who was looking interested at something before it disappeared might be questioned by the guard.
Basic idea of the game is that you don't get treasure without overcoming an appropriate challenge rating, so you can have fun with that.
The only caveat I have is that if one character doing this ends up taking a lot of play time and leaves the others on the sidelines you might have to just quash this behavior.
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Wouldn't you (as a shop owner selling X0,000+gp items) just have a personalized scrying focus built in? Or be able to cast locate object (or have the insurance company able to)? Upon theft, it should certainly be possible to have the location of the stolen goods readily known.
Then, just get appropriately CR+6 guards to wake the thief up with a truncheon (Sap Adept(!)) to the kneecaps.
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I just don't do magic item shops. Too tempting a target for thieves, and too little sales volume to be worth it; the vast VAST majority of people in the world can't afford magic items, can't use magic items, or have no use for a magic item.This is also a pretty good point. While there may be a Leo Getz in every major city, the key there is that its Leo Getz, not Leo Haz. PC wants a Ring of Protection +3? "Yeah, I can get that, but it'll cost you!"
IMG, it's more like 'okay, I can create that for you. Cash up front (with a markup), come back in (X) days for it'.
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Let him steal it. Then have one of two things happen:
Being a thief (as opposed to a rogue) has consequences - and not just for the thief.
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if your players want to open that can of worms, they need to understand that what applies to npc's also applies to them. if they can rob npc's, what is to stop npc's from robbing them? when your players start stealing from npc's, npc's can and should start stealing from them. pick their pockets as they move through crowds, rob stuff out of their rooms when they stay at inns, have sneaky bastards infiltrate their camps at night and grab stuff, run crooked dice games, have vendors and innkeepers etc. charge them obscene markups on goods and services etc. as well, what sort of settlement would welcome a bunch of thieving murderhobos into their midst? you could justifiably run them out of every town or city they try to enter because they have earned themselves a deservedly poor reputation. "whenever dave comes by, expensive stuff goes missing so how about we stop letting dave come by?"
this isn't a suggestion to be mean, unfair or teach them a lesson. rather, in a setting where theft is common due to insufficient or corrupt law enforcement, lack of respect for others' property, an elevated level of dishonesty or a population characterized by selfish acts of daring and/or greed, the pc's would not be the only ppl participating in this sort of activity. the more criminal your society is, the more the entire population will participate in crime. if you've watched "the wire" at all, think of omar, who made his living robbing powerful, well armed drug dealers that would be analogous to the powerful, well armed pc's. even the scariest mofo's get messed with when everyone is a mofo.
it might be better to simply discourage such behavior by appealing to their sense of morality, especially if their alignments are good or neutral. the golden rule applies perfectly here: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". starting down this path can result in what amounts to an arms race of the population trying to protect itself from the pc's using more and more powerful methods and the pc's doing the same to protect themselves from the population. having suspicious, distrustful pc's who think everyone is out to get them, one way or another, creates an adversarial environment where the pc's are reluctant to interact with the anyone, making it difficult for the dm to hook and motivate them.
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Its very simple, the way I handle it most of the time:
Magic shop have a fairly decent security, not the best but decent enough like bodyguards like the ones proposed in the gamemastery guide npc list. Of course high level rogues could find intricate to go steal a magic item and they will definitely succeed.
Now the twist is, a merchant or what I like to call them retailers are just the ones selling the items. The person/organization who is actually distributing the magic items is a guild of thieves/treasure hunters, essentially adventurers who just want profit at all cost. If another adventurer is attacking their store, they will send their special squad to retrieve the item.
I do like also what Majuba mentioned about closing shop and not having any more magic shop for adventurers.
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It doesn't matter, really...
As long as the characters are not overgeared, it doesn't matter how they got their stuff. It might affect the story, of course, but it has no effect on their power level.
If they steal the Belt of Giant Strength +6, then they don't get to find one at the dragon's lair or something... That's okay.
Their decisions will help you write the story. Robbing a magic shop may have consequences, but so does robbing an ancient tomb...
Instead of saying "no, it's not possible" or punishing them for it, just adjust WBL income and use the players' action to mold your world.
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Well, the magic shop that got robbed went bankrupt. No more opportunity to buy or sell any decent items for the rest of the campaign, sorry!
They might not have it on the shelves but in the basement if he knows there's a ghost iron sword n the store cause the guy sells it what stops him from stealth perception slight of hand stealth again then bluff ... To get it or just a simpler intimidate to had it over or to not call the guards
We're talking a fantasy world here. Shopkeeper gets robbed and didn't see how or why, so s/he walks over to the temple for a divination. That night, a hit squad of the town guard gets teleported into the thief's bedroom. End of character. [The dark ages were pretty fond of locking someone up for forced labour, even if they didn't chop off their hand for stealing.]
Unless it's part of the story tell him it's not good for the game, becuase unless we are talking of 1st level characters stealing a short sword the game's economy really can't handle that (characters being WAY overgeared) so tell him that if he goes and starts stealing left and right he can do so, and he might even succeed but the party won't be finding squat in their adventuring for the forseeable future.
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Let him steal it. Then have one of two things happen:
The magic shop owner comes to the PCs and begs them to find the thief
The magic shop shuts down, owner found dead out back, killed by loan sharks when the owner couldn't pay. No more magic shops for the party. Being a thief (as opposed to a rogue) has consequences - and not just for the thief.
I'm learning so much about the way you think :)
I would imagine most serious magic shops would simply have a permanent null magic demiplane storage area for all their goods, with only one portal in or out. And then, a lot of protection in and around that portal.
I'm not particularly adept at devising the best magical defense, but any magic shop should probably be very well defended in they're dealing in a large amount of valuable items on the regular.
Just design stealing from a store the same way you would a normal encounter and make sure that the value of goods stolen is an appropriate reward based on the CR you use.
Of course, when a PC 'assigns themselves' a quest like this in my games there's no guarantee that it will be appropriate CR. The player has to try to figure out for themselves whether the store is too secure to rob or not.
Wouldn't you (as a shop owner selling X0,000+gp items) just have a personalized scrying focus built in? Or be able to cast locate object (or have the insurance company able to)? Upon theft, it should certainly be possible to have the location of the stolen goods readily known.
Then, just get appropriately CR+6 guards to wake the thief up with a truncheon (Sap Adept(!)) to the kneecaps.
Then if they happen to win they keep it? I know cr +6 is almost impossible but... Couple la all it takes
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I'm pretty sure most magic items are crafted on commission. The shopkeeper doesn't have it in the store, he doesn't even start crafting it until you come in and commision him to do it.
If the PCs really want to commit burglary, let them try. Set it up like an ordinary encounter, just with more traps, Disable Device, and Stealth checks that outright combat. If they do get caught, they fight a squad of CR-appropriate guards, and if they succeed, they get a WBL-appropriate payday.
Actually, for a group that's more skill focused and light on muscle, this could be a perfectly valid adventure in and of itself.
In my games I consider magic items custom built, PCs pay for them and the crafter begins constructing them. It doesn't really make sense to have thousands of dollars worth of enchanted items sitting on the shelf when there is a limited range of people able to afford such goods.
I thought all merchants in magic item shops were gestalt trapsmith rogues/divination wizards with limitations that they are merchants? Maybe that's why magical bear traps showed up under the floorboards and chained the rogue to the floor. Although usually my pc's tend to make their own gear or go to major towns and have their gear built for them. This has never really become an issue for my group... now that this thread exists I'm sure it will.
I say let him do it.
Then again, I only ever use WBL when players roll up new characters above level 1(not entirely true, but almost).
I presently run AP's but usually do sandbox-style games, where my players make their own story. I toss them a hook or create plots as I deem appropriate, and if the hook looks exciting enough to the characters, they bite. But besides that I usually permit my players to do whatever they want to, and let them deal with the consequences.
If the highly skilled rogue wants to steal from a shop, or a house, or anywhere for that matter, she gets to try it. She gets to plot and plan if she wants to, or to just go in there and roll the dice.
If she gets caught, she's in trouble. If the party wants to help her, they might be too. If she doesn't get caught, I ask myself what happens, based on the shop in question:
- Does the shopkeeper grin and bear it because he's too busy to deal with anything outside of trying to make the profits back from the stolen goods?
- Does he launch his own investigation to find out who stole the item?
- Does he go to the local law-enforcement?
- Do they launch an investigation?
- Does the shopkeeper hire someone to launch an investigation? Who does he hire?
- Does the shopkeeper go to the shopowner, who goes to the league of merchants in the city, who then launch an investigation?
- Does the thieves guild (whoose protection racket just got pissed on) launch an investigation?
- Does a local vigilante launch an investigation?
- Does a group of lowlevel adventurers get hired to launch an invesitgation?
There's a myriad of things that could happen, and when I pick the one I want, I usually go by what makes most sense. When a player tells me he wants to steal something, I take a moment to pause and consider how well connected the shopkeeper is, and then let the dice fall. Then consequences happen. My players get more wealthy, because they took a risk. Effectively gaining gold from a challenge.
If the rogue was so strong that there was no challenge, well, I shrug it off. Another mysterious theft committed by the master-thief the locals have begun calling the 10-finger Shade. Who am I, as GM, to take that away from the players? :D
I understand that sometimes you need to observe WBL and keep the boat high enough in the water, so the campaign doesn't sink. I can respect that. But if it's not absolutely crucial to the plot of the story somehow? Screw it :D I'd let my players rob a temple of Abadar if they wanted to, and then deal with the fallout, like everybody else has to.
We have a gentleman's agreement when I GM, that people can do whatever they want with their characters, as long as they don't detract too much from everybody's fun, and as long as the players agree to sometimes make compromises for the sake of the campaign and storytelling. This means my players get to throw me all the curveballs they want, and I get to challenge them in ways I hadn't planned for, while maintaining the story. It's fun :D... at least my table thinks so.
-Nearyn
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1. Do we have time in this game session to have the thief do a side quest of "steal the stuff from the shop", or is everyone else ready to play?
2. Is the player who wants to steal things from the shop "acting out" because he's bored/being an attention-seeker, and your game/plotline/session is bogged-down?
3. Is this something I can take care of in just a couple of rolls, or do I need to set up a 15 minute/30 minute side-session for the thief?
4. Did the player design a thief specifically for things like this?
5. Can I tie this little foray into my larger plot (eyewitnesses, found quest items, NPC involvement)?
My flowchart ends with "No. Stop that." and "Okay, but there are often consequences to these sorts of things, so be forewarned".
---> Simple: "Okay, you case the joint after hours, and make your move. Roll Stealth. Roll Disarm Traps. Roll Perception. Roll Stealth Again."
---> Elaborate: "Okay, you case the joint after hours, and you see the apothecary leave her shop but not with that enormous mountain lion pet of hers. Still want to go in? By the way, you're being followed. You think it's that nutcase from the thieves guild you saw earlier. No doubt he's trying to set you up for something..."
Perhaps more to the point, is the thief/party prepared to deal with the consequences if he fails? And the lengths the dealer will go to in order to recover stolen property?
Usually, that would (at the very least) the thief and his known associates never getting through the door of that shop again - or any other in that city.
Even if he gets away with it, when he walks in to buy stuff legitimately with it in his possession...the vendor will know who the thief was.
Well we would both be probably evil dunno what kind evil he going for trickster and me for a bardic thief so the party so far just us two is cool with it i'll probably either go with the high security or mini adventure to rob it plot hooks npc meltdowns and all
I was curious how people handle vendors I had a player email me and ask me if the vendor sells it than is physically in the shop and I can steal it? What would you say how would you handle itYet another reason to avoid Magic Mart entirely, save for special circumstances where precautions exist to make theives think twice.
Lol if I wasn't dm I would be in his shoes "makes thieves think twice" my char would be a thief with kid mentality of bad attention is still attention
Or normal people once bitten twice shy mine would end up being once bitten twice imma bite back or once bitten twice bitten third time bitten fourth you can't be serious and so on :)
Its pretty easy to discourage pcs from stealing, just put a bunch of guys (who are actually probably Wizards or Fighters at level 20, or whatever the max level in your world is) and if they defeat those guys its sure to rouse the town guard and you can send all of the guard at them.
Thanks most people.kept assuming.I was talking magical shops (might of.been my fault I don't knw) but I was asking in general if I can steal a elephant ride/walk/pull it to other town I would to sell it 5 minutes of rp and rolls 5000 gold (elephant for 10000 sold half price) why not
Thanks most people.kept assuming.I was talking magical shops (might of.been my fault I don't knw) but I was asking in general if I can steal a elephant ride/walk/pull it to other town I would to sell it 5 minutes of rp and rolls 5000 gold (elephant for 10000 sold half price) why not
I'm curious as to how exactly you plan on stealing an elephant. Thats quite hard to hide
*Puffs in*
Thanks most people.kept assuming.I was talking magical shops (might of.been my fault I don't knw) but I was asking in general if I can steal a elephant ride/walk/pull it to other town I would to sell it 5 minutes of rp and rolls 5000 gold (elephant for 10000 sold half price) why notI'm curious as to how exactly you plan on stealing an elephant. Thats quite hard to hide
Be a wizard, create a demiplane, throw him in there, profit
Yeah, casters can do anything
*Puffs out*
Thanks most people.kept assuming.I was talking magical shops (might of.been my fault I don't knw) but I was asking in general if I can steal a elephant ride/walk/pull it to other town I would to sell it 5 minutes of rp and rolls 5000 gold (elephant for 10000 sold half price) why notI'm curious as to how exactly you plan on stealing an elephant. Thats quite hard to hide
No. I'm just happy to see you... Sorry about that. It's got a mind of its own...
This is also a pretty good point. While there may be a Leo Getz in every major city, the key there is that its Leo Getz, not Leo Haz. PC wants a Ring of Protection +3? "Yeah, I can get that, but it'll cost you!"
This.
If the party wants immediate access to something they can either make it themselves or build a network of friendly enchanters. Magic item Shoppes aren't terribly viable. Assuming they WERE around, stealing from one would be worse than stealing from the Mob - and the Mob are probably trusted customers too - imagine how hunted you'd be.
*Puffs in*
This is also a pretty good point. While there may be a Leo Getz in every major city, the key there is that its Leo Getz, not Leo Haz. PC wants a Ring of Protection +3? "Yeah, I can get that, but it'll cost you!"
This.
If the party wants immediate access to something they can either make it themselves or build a network of friendly enchanters. Magic item Shoppes aren't terribly viable. Assuming they WERE around, stealing from one would be worse than stealing from the Mob - and the Mob are probably trusted customers too - imagine how hunted you'd be.
I can see a band of hellknights hunting down the group in forests and dungeons. Yeah, it wouldnt be pretty.
*Puffs out*
*Puffs in*
Thanks most people.kept assuming.I was talking magical shops (might of.been my fault I don't knw) but I was asking in general if I can steal a elephant ride/walk/pull it to other town I would to sell it 5 minutes of rp and rolls 5000 gold (elephant for 10000 sold half price) why notI'm curious as to how exactly you plan on stealing an elephant. Thats quite hard to hideBe a wizard, create a demiplane, throw him in there, profit
Yeah, casters can do anything
*Puffs out*
A bard can't do it huh?
Thanks most people.kept assuming.I was talking magical shops (might of.been my fault I don't knw) but I was asking in general if I can steal a elephant ride/walk/pull it to other town I would to sell it 5 minutes of rp and rolls 5000 gold (elephant for 10000 sold half price) why notI'm curious as to how exactly you plan on stealing an elephant. Thats quite hard to hide
Illousion make it look like a rat...
Transmutation make it a tea cuplevitate remember swish and flick
And easiest way throw a blanket over it opposed bluff
Or bluff to make them think its mine and his name is Babar