Goblin Squad Member
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... How can a player role play a bandit or a raider and still maintain a decent reputation?I think the secret to playing a decent/high-reputation 'Robin Hood' bandit might be to target low rep villains that are oppressing the people.
This sounds like a really fun concept for some PvP-minded CG types!
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Goblin Squad Member
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After years of playing WoW, the appearance of so many companies cloning WoW in their games was disappointing. How with Pathfinder Online being headed up by a former CCP employee, we are seeing ideas being ripped from Eve for Pathfinder Online. This is disappointing. Can any MMO be original anymore?
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Yes: Happy Holiday, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to Goblinworks Team and Paizo co-elfs!
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Is the picture a Paladin Armour? Looks very impressive; segue that I really like the idea of extreme Alignments being the only recourse to activating certain actions/feats. That stretches choice based on more than just "what I like" or "what is best" very nicely I anticipate.
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Devs chose a good parting shot with a double-expresso of Alignment & Reputation to see us through until the 8th!
I think this is potentially one of the most world-building worthy aspects of the game and the comments suggest extraordinary interest in how these relationships interact.
Wondering if the devs have considered: Time-based change as base-change then for different alignments/reputations (or subdivided further for different score ranges per A/R) different additional conditions to ensure that time-based base-change is actually moving depending on which alignment as well as base-rate change itself? Will have to mull over some ideas over the festive period.
It's good to hear there will experimentation on these systems for all Alignments and Reputations and changes between these per players and groups during EE. Should keep all players of any persuasion merry.
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Can any MMO be original anymore?
The "original" discussion itself is not very original anymore; a victim of it's own veracity. It comes up in books, theatre (Gilbert and Sullivan were aware of this for their plays during their time), films and more.
I suggest and I don't mean to dismiss your question, you suggest problems to making a digital game of pathfinder and which choices you take to overcome those problems and what goals you choose to achieve and then decide if your solution requires originality or not? Who knows maybe originality will come looking for you!
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Goblin Squad Member
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... How can a player role play a bandit or a raider and still maintain a decent reputation?I think the secret to playing a decent/high-reputation 'Robin Hood' bandit might be to target low rep villains that are oppressing the people.This sounds like a really fun concept for some PvP-minded CG types!
That is fine for Robin Hood types, but most bandits won't be that, and that should not be the only way to play them and remain decent to high rep.
Stephen Cheney is aware of that and has already addressed some of my concerns. In short, we should not react to this Dev Blog outside of the context of the previous 2 or 3 Dev Blogs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I obviously misunderstood the question you were asking. I didn't realize that until I read Stephen's response. My apologies.3. How do you plan on preventing players from using naked noobs as reputation bombs?You may have seen some of this before...
No apology needed, I should have made it clearer (I assumed) that the naked noob reputation bomb was an issue of AOE deterrence.
As Stephen has requested it, I will be thinking of as many ways as a noob can be used to exploit their "noob status" to harm legitimate PVP. Those don't just involve AOE, but direct attacks could also be exploited. I'll be back on that subject later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After years of playing WoW, the appearance of so many companies cloning WoW in their games was disappointing. How with Pathfinder Online being headed up by a former CCP employee, we are seeing ideas being ripped from Eve for Pathfinder Online. This is disappointing. Can any MMO be original anymore?
Can you elaborate? I haven't played EVE...
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. What is the impact of raiding outposts, caravans and POIs?I think we're trying to set it up so if we can detect that it's a raid (rather than just a bunch of guys killing other guys at a location) then they can be turned into sort of a lightweight feud, such that there are ways to do it without risking rep loss. But I can't remember exactly where we landed on that, so I'll try to get Tork to weigh in tomorrow.
2. Is the only reputation free raiding conducted as a part of a feud, war or faction warfare?See above.
Thank you for this response Stephen....
If I may suggest?
Instead of trying to track or detect that a raid was a raid, wouldn't it be possible to make raiding and action (feat) in the same line as the SAD has been turned into?
Looking at the last few Dev Blogs, I could see this working out quite well.
A SAD is a commoner's feat, it being based on intimidation.
Raiding / Ambushing targets is a feature of leadership. It requires observation, planning and execution.
I could even imagine item requirements (to be slotted / equipped) in order to plan raids / ambushes (ie maps, a stick to draw in the mud ;), etc.)
Many here ask for trade offs, well there they are... If I want to be a Bandit / Raider and have a dedication bonus for that profession, I needs to have the SAD and Raid feats, plus dedicate an equipment slot for the items needed for raid planning.
I like the idea of having to mix the attributes of strength, dexterity and intelligence in preforming effective raids. The skills needed are obviously based on combat, stealth and tactics. The domains for itemization would be Commoner and Aristocrat.
"Aristocrat and Banditry!!" you say??? It is the River Kingdoms, where many of the "kings" are Rogues (CN).. so there is a good connection to the lore and role playing in general.
@ Stephen
The short version: Make raiding / ambush the same as SAD and you won't have to track it. The feat triggers the disabling of the reputation loss when directed at CERTAIN targets. Those targets being: Caravans, Outposts, POIs, and Settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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well for the bandit thing remember that their abilities make up for it.
If the victim and Outlaw completed a stand-and-deliver trade, the Outlaw loses double reputation for killing the target within 20 minutes. (If they pay, you should let them go.)When an Outlaw receives a ransom from stand and deliver, they get reputation up to a daily max.
So bandits have a built in reputation mechanic to offset their ways. however i think that overall bandits are going to be really concerned with their rep and it wouldnt surprise me if they have low rep. I mean other than robin hood and maybe a handful of others, how many criminals who robbed and killed people were considered to be outstanding members of the community?
Thats part of the risk you take as a bandit. You steal from others so you dont have to do all the hard work of collecting mats and creating items, the downside is that your rep may take a hit because people dont like getting stolen from.
Also someone mentioned about LG paladins and such basically having to PvE to keep their alignment.
The player earns extra good vs. evil for each character with Heinous killed up to a daily max.The alignment-based flags have been removed in favor of the "for the cause" flags of factional combat. Benefits associated with the Enforcer and Champion flags are now tied to alignment score and to factional membership
So basically you use a good aligned "for the cause" flag then go hunt some heinous folks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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OK wait, I'm very much a newbie to Pathfinder, so I apologize for my immediately obvious ignorance of the game. I'm assuming this game has character classes of a...shall we say nefarious nature? Thieves, assassins, villains, etc...
If say, someone were of evil intent, but wanted to hide that to better increase his/her ultimate goal, they're not going to be running around with little icons over their heads giving away what were really about are they?
For instance, my good friend Bilbo has secretly hated me for years and has coveted my ring of invisibility to the point of near pathological obsession. He's successfully fought his urge to bash me over the head with a shovel in my sleep, but today we were attacked by goblins. In our heated battle with said creatures, just as I was about to do away with the last of them, he clobbered me over the head with one of the fallens cudgels, and then finished the last one off.
No one was there to witness this, and while this would certainly affect his alignment (no arguement from me on that one) how would it affect his reputation in a negative fashion? If no one is the wiser, than why fault the guilty with something everyone can see to prove his guilt.
I guess what I'm saying is, crime should pay, until of course you get caught. I'm not saying I'd do something like this, I'm just saying don't make life undeservedly bad on those that have gone to the trouble to successfully hide their true nature. Evil, psychopaths, and despots are the spice of life people, and they give good people a reason to struggle, rise up, and do justice upon the guilty.
OK in truth, I've done this...I'd played good characters for years, and then one day my DM dared me to bring an evil character to play in his new campaign. Spurned by his challenge, I rose to the occasion. I created an Anti-Paladin but in the guise of a righteous fighter type. I came to the first day of gaming, and stated to friends that we needed to stop being so suspicious of each others characters, and to prove so I suggested we pass our sheets around the table for...what's the word...transparency? They all of course thought it was a fantastic sign of trust when I tossed my fake character sheet on the table, and thus the ruse began. I of course made careful mental notes of strengths and weaknesses, and began to devise the order that each would meet with their demise.
It was delicious while it lasted, and yes after the third...or was it the fourth party member fell victim to my ways...the last one on the razor edge of a recently won (with the parties unknowing help) Unholy Reaver, I got caught. Well...found out, needless to say...that character is now very hated by the surviving members of that failed (glorious) campaign.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This seems to sink that intent. From the sounds of it we are either going to have to run four settlements, one at each neutral extreme, or we are going to have to throw players to the wolves. If Callambea is Lawful Neutral, and Golgotha is Lawful Evil, what do we do with our Chaotic Good players? Do we tell them, sorry, we know you have been playing with us for seven years, but you either play the way we tell you to play, or you leave?
If you think about it many of the MMo that come out nowadays use the 3 faction system for grouping/guilding/pVp. A guild has to choose one of 3 factions from the outset. One step alignment rule covers 3 of the 9 alignments, or 1/3 of them. So it's not some kind of crazy leap from other games only in this case you can ally across the 9 alignments and cover everyone.
So you are almost right, you would need an alliance of 3 nations to cover everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This sounds like a really fun concept for some PvP-minded CG types!
Agreed! This blog has restored the possibility of playing high Rep chaotic types. A chaotic Nuetral or chaotic good settlement sounds like a lot of frackin fun right now.
I also want to say I was wrong. I was pushing fro a single alignment system that did both functions but GW was 100% right. We have a griefer system and an RP system. It's brilliant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A person who wants to do evil things but maintain a good rep and alignment is going to have to be sneaky. You wont be able to hit kill someone in the heat of battle and get away with it, you will be auto flagged and chat logs will out you quick. You are going to have to do things like use middlemen and throw away characters to interface with say a group of mercs to take out your crafting rival.
however in this game there is magic and in the TT some of the spells are undetectable alignment and some others like align weapon. it would make sense to me that an evil person could get away if they were able to keep undetectable alignment up. However a town may say your alignment as to be visible, so in that case i would love to see align person spells, so that a person can actively mask their alignment.
then disguise and such.........
however i do think that some evil folks will be deep undercover cops. They will never let their true intentions be known for years then BAM.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A person who wants to do evil things but maintain a good rep and alignment is going to have to be sneaky. You wont be able to hit kill someone in the heat of battle and get away with it, you will be auto flagged and chat logs will out you quick. You are going to have to do things like use middlemen and throw away characters to interface with say a group of mercs to take out your crafting rival.
however in this game there is magic and in the TT some of the spells are undetectable alignment and some others like align weapon. it would make sense to me that an evil person could get away if they were able to keep undetectable alignment up. However a town may say your alignment as to be visible, so in that case i would love to see align person spells, so that a person can actively mask their alignment.
then disguise and such.........
however i do think that some evil folks will be deep undercover cops. They will never let their true intentions be known for years then BAM.
Actually it seems very easy to be evil and high rep if you want to. Just set your core to evil, PvP by the rules and make sure you do your daily heinous deed against the peasants and with the factions.
What is hard, by design, is maintaining good or lawful if your rep is low.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A person who wants to do evil things but maintain a good rep and alignment is going to have to be sneaky. You wont be able to hit kill someone in the heat of battle and get away with it, you will be auto flagged and chat logs will out you quick. You are going to have to do things like use middlemen and throw away characters to interface with say a group of mercs to take out your crafting rival.
however in this game there is magic and in the TT some of the spells are undetectable alignment and some others like align weapon. it would make sense to me that an evil person could get away if they were able to keep undetectable alignment up. However a town may say your alignment as to be visible, so in that case i would love to see align person spells, so that a person can actively mask their alignment.
then disguise and such.........
however i do think that some evil folks will be deep undercover cops. They will never let their true intentions be known for years then BAM.
Exactly! Not saying I'd do it you understand...just saying. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Exactly! Not saying I'd do it you understand...just saying. ;)A person who wants to do evil things but maintain a good rep and alignment is going to have to be sneaky. You wont be able to hit kill someone in the heat of battle and get away with it, you will be auto flagged and chat logs will out you quick. You are going to have to do things like use middlemen and throw away characters to interface with say a group of mercs to take out your crafting rival.
however in this game there is magic and in the TT some of the spells are undetectable alignment and some others like align weapon. it would make sense to me that an evil person could get away if they were able to keep undetectable alignment up. However a town may say your alignment as to be visible, so in that case i would love to see align person spells, so that a person can actively mask their alignment.
then disguise and such.........
however i do think that some evil folks will be deep undercover cops. They will never let their true intentions be known for years then BAM.
Yes...peasants are fun to torment from time to time...but lets face it, evil people like to torment and kill people of....shall we say an equivalent skill level? Not to mention...peasants don't have coveted magic items! Again...not saying...I'd be doing anything of such an appalling nature...just...saying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Every four straight hours the character earns Reputation, the amount earned increases slightlySo.. the intended way to grind rep is by leaving your character logged in stealthed in a safe spot while you go to sleep/work/dinner?!?
Even if the server kicks inactive characters, I could see someone running PFO in the background while working/studying and alt-tabbing every X mins to move the character one step forward and back again.
I wouldn't assume you have to be logged in to get the gain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I mentioned when alignment was discussed previously, I think it's going to be difficult for PFO to get alignment to work mechanicaly the way one would logicaly expect it to in a Pathfinder style setting. Especialy if one is trying to keep the system fairly simple....which is a very reasonable goal in development. I think there are likely going to be alot of different ways to game the system....and even possibly have it become another tool in the griefers toolbox. I suspect we'll end up seeing quite a few people who everyone in the player community views as LG but the game ends up thinking is CE and others who the player community know to be CE but the game mechanics regard as LG. Though I understand and admire what GW is trying to do here, I think it likely to be a wasted effort that ultimately may detract more then add to the fun of the game.
Having said my piece on that, I'm certainly willing to wait and see how the system actualy performs in action and will be happy to be proven wrong if that turns out to be the case. I'm also certainly willing to try to contribute, if I can, to help suggest improvements within the context of the intended system and confident that the very talented developers of PFO will do the best they can to make it work for the players.
No doom and gloom here..... just 2 simple observations. It's going to be very difficult to get a simple, workable, automated system to make accurate determinations of such nuanced subjects as "Good" and "Evil" and despite the Developers insistance that within the context of PFO that "Good" and "Evil" can be represented by strict and easly defined cosmological rules....it's going to be pretty much impossible to get most players to divorce them from the expectations of very nuanced moral and ethical judgments that even they might have difficulty finding common agreement upon. I can see alot of cognative dissonence going on.
At best, I can see it as something that players will try to game to get the results that they want and a tool to use against others to force them into results that they don't want....if they actualy end up caring about it at all.
For example....If I want to play a LG character and the mechanics start telling me that I'm slipping towards CE (in ways that I don't agree with)....my most likely response would simply to be to park my character AFK in some "safe" NPC town, possibly with a macro running to generate some activity if needed....until I gained sufficient hours to move back toward my intended alignment. Is my character really being LG, or is he simply not really existing within the universe at all? Ultimately if it becomes too difficult to play the type of character I want to RP...I simply won't play the game at all, because it would become more like work and less like having fun.
Again this is not, "doom and gloom" just simple honesty on my part. Hopefully PFO doesn't end up like that....but I do see a risk of it within the proposed alignment system. YMMV.
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The thought just occurred to me that PFO is almost pay-to-grief now, since those players who are motivated to do so can pay for enough characters so they always have one to play while the rest are regaining Reputation & Alignment. I hope the devs were paying attention to our previous discussions about requiring in-game Deeds of a sort to unlock the Rep Gains in the same way we have to perform in-game Deeds of a sort to unlock the Abilities associated with the Skills we've trained. I also hope they have some plans to make serial loss/gain of Reputation gradually become less and less effective.
And don't get me wrong, I don't particularly have a problem with this pay-to-grief possibility; it seems an unavoidable by-product of the fact that "on the internet, no one knows you're a dog".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't assume you have to be logged in to get the gain.Every four straight hours the character earns Reputation, the amount earned increases slightlySo.. the intended way to grind rep is by leaving your character logged in stealthed in a safe spot while you go to sleep/work/dinner?!?
Even if the server kicks inactive characters, I could see someone running PFO in the background while working/studying and alt-tabbing every X mins to move the character one step forward and back again.
So essentialy players are being rewarded for NOT playing the game and/or remaining inactive within the game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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OK wait, I'm very much a newbie to Pathfinder, so I apologize for my immediately obvious ignorance of the game. I'm assuming this game has character classes of a...shall we say nefarious nature? Thieves, assassins, villains, etc...
Hi Oshmear and welcome to the forums.
PFO will not have 'classes' in the traditional term, but train-what-you-want skill systems. There are mechanisms that may reward sticking to a traditional archetype, but an evil villain may look exactly like a do-gooder.
...until he does something. Hostility/criminal/heinous/wrong faction flags will be visible as described in the blogs.
The "no witnesses" argument is so far dismissed on the grounds that the players respawn and thus the victims are witnesses themselves. You may like it or not, but from a meta-gaming perspective it makes sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I think it's going to be difficult for PFO to get alignment to work mechanicaly the way one would logicaly expect it to in a Pathfinder style setting.
You're absolutely right that no automated system is likely to match the discernment of a human GM when judging player character actions, but I don't think that's the actual goal. I think the primary goal of the Alignment system in PFO is to protect the game from devolving into a murder simulator.
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im honestly not that worried about it. this is one of those tweek things. Also remember their stance of exploiting the rules. I suspect that using 10 alt characters to grief someone would be treated the same as if you just used 1.
At the same time you need to remember that unless they pay for a dozen accounts their characters wont actually get more powerful and eventually differences in tier armor/weapon and available skills will make it so that they will be on the short end of the stick.
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I wouldn't assume you have to be logged in to get the gain.So essentialy players are being rewarded for NOT playing the game and/or remaining inactive within the game?
No more - or less - than they're being rewarded for NOT playing the game when they gain XP while not online.
And see above for my request that the game make the Rep Gain system work just like the XP system and also require in-game Merit Badges / Deeds / Achievements or whatever to actually unlock the Rep Gain.
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im honestly not that worried about it. this is one of those tweek things. Also remember their stance of exploiting the rules. I suspect that using 10 alt characters to grief someone would be treated the same as if you just used 1.
At the same time you need to remember that unless they pay for a dozen accounts their characters wont actually get more powerful and eventually differences in tier armor/weapon and available skills will make it so that they will be on the short end of the stick.
Goblinworks has always said that alignment will prorbably the most crowdforged system in the game. I have always maintained that getting alignment right is our #1 job as crowdforgers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I think it's going to be difficult for PFO to get alignment to work mechanicaly the way one would logicaly expect it to in a Pathfinder style setting.You're absolutely right that no automated system is likely to match the discernment of a human GM when judging player character actions, but I don't think that's the actual goal. I think the primary goal of the Alignment system in PFO is to protect the game from devolving into a murder simulator.
Yeah, I do understand. That's kinda the weakness of FFA PvP games. They can fall into that trap (and often do). The problem is that the mechanism being used for that is something which generaly doesn't matter much to the kind of players who are likely to engage in that rampant level of unwelcome Pking and/or griefing. It's likely to matter most to RPers, who generaly aren't the type of players likely to go around engaging in non-consentual PvP to a significant degree.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Oshmear, if you haven't already, I suggest reading the blog Your Pathfinder Online Character. It will answer a lot of questions you might have about Classes and Roles in Pathfinder Online.
You can also find an annotated list of all the Goblinworks Blogs, and lots of other useful information, in Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is that the mechanism being used for that is something which generaly doesn't matter much to the kind of players who are likely to engage in that rampant level of unwelcome Pking and/or griefing.
Which is why it's so important that the devs restrict access to high-end training facilities, so that the Random Player Killers can't simply ignore the system and go about killing other players for the lulz while also maximizing their own characters' potential.
And don't get me wrong, there will still be loads of players who will make every effort to succeed even without access to high-end training. The devs think such heavy-handed constraints might balance the Alignments so that there's a decent spread, the folks who plan to play CE RPKers think it's too much and will force everyone to play LG + High Rep, but my own personal prediction is that it still won't be enough, and there will still be vast hordes of Low Reputation Chaotic Evil Random Player Killers running around. But I think there's a decent chance that these systems will empower the "Good Guys" to beat them back away from the new players and away from those who are generally trying to avoid them.
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Sounds more like detention than a reward.
So essentialy players are being rewarded for NOT playing the game and/or remaining inactive within the game?
Not really since "detention" requires the individual to be someplace they don't want to be, doing something they don't want to do.
In this case, the player can be anywhere they want to be doing anything else they enjoy or need to do except playing PFO on that character.
I don't know about you but of the 168 hours in any given week, I might spend 5-15 gaming and that is likely split up between more then one game. Normaly I'd be logged out from any online game I was playing...but it's pretty trivial to keep an open connection if needed.
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The problem is that the mechanism being used for that is something which generaly doesn't matter much to the kind of players who are likely to engage in that rampant level of unwelcome Pking and/or griefing.Which is why it's so important that the devs restrict access to high-end training facilities, so that the Random Player Killers can't simply ignore the system and go about killing other players for the lulz while also maximizing their own characters' potential.
And don't get me wrong, there will still be loads of players who will make every effort to succeed even without access to high-end training. The devs think such heavy-handed constraints might balance the Alignments so that there's a decent spread, the folks who plan to play CE RPKers think it's too much and will force everyone to play LG + High Rep, but my own personal prediction is that it still won't be enough, and there will still be vast hordes of Low Reputation Chaotic Evil Random Player Killers running around. But I think there's a decent chance that these systems will empower the "Good Guys" to beat them back away from the new players and away from those who are generally trying to avoid them.
Maybe. From my experience the RPK's tend to go after newbies not higher leveled players....and usualy not when higher leveled players are around, so all they need is to be higher then thier newbie prey in order to achieve what they want.
My other experience is that Greifers tend to be more concerned with ruining another players day rather then neccesarly killing them so something where you can trick/taunt/manipulate another player into an unwanted Alignment or Reputation shift becomes a potentialy powerfull tool for them....perhaps even more so then simply killing the other player.
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The biggest hurdle to the rpk playstyle will be restricting training for any t2 skills to settlements that bar entry to low rep characters. The training facility will not work if they don't make that rule, so the low rep characters will not have the training to use T2 weapons or armor. It doesn't mater if a zerg takes out someone wearing good stuff that wasn't threaded, it doesn't matter if they get the gear in trade, they can't use it.
And thanks to nightdrifter's number crunching, we know that T1 equipped fighter vs T2 equipped fighter combat will be very one-sided.
The only loophole I see is that it looks possible to play nice for a year or two, get your T2/T3 training done, and then break bad once you have all the high tier training you need.
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@ Stephen - I am wondering why divergence from the Golarion standard is necessary? Below are examples of civilizations that are not within the alignment constraints that have been mentioned. A nation that is N. A CN nation that has a LG settlement. Another NG nation that has a LN settlement and a NE settlement.
How is this reconciled? NPCs can do it but PCs can't? Just pretend it's not that way?
The most important question that might be, why is this necessary? All we've seen is "There's going to be a one step limit, then there might not be because it's too harsh, now there is."
If alignment is suppose to be almost undetectable, how do the NPCs know not to allow you to live there? How does the Company leader know not to accept you or are they gonna get a big red flashing box saying "This person is the wrong alignment for your company."
Why is "one-step" necessary? Why can we not choose who lives in our settlements? Kinda makes it seem like we really aren't in control and are more on the rails than we originally thought.
While we haven't talked much about them lately, nations as a group of settlements are still in the design (they're just a little further out than settlements). I believe the expectation is still that you can link several differently aligned settlements within one step of a nation. We may or may not let you make a true neutral nation, though, so there may be two corners of the grid that you can't get in a single nation.
You can also be part of a company that's friendly with a settlement and thus allowed access and training without being sponsored.
In general, though, we want to make it challenging for you to balance players at either end of the alignment spectrum, because if it's not giving you meaningful, hard choices, there's not a lot of reason to have alignment.
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thats true they could do that and i am 100% certain there will be folks who will.
however it think having low rep will hurt them decently. Besides training facilities they wont have access to a lot of other functions like crafters so their ability to replace gear could be low. They cannot go to cities to pick up their gear safely so they will need either a merchant or an alt to bring the gear to them. This will most likely happen near evil settlements due to them being basically permanently flagged and open game for good/neutral characters. This means that bandits and such might take advantage of this fact, or other evil folks might take advantage.
Wait for the goods to get delivered then kill them and rob them.
On the other hand I can see them trying to get a lot of gear through mercenary work when instead of gold they demand a dozen t2 weapons and armor as payment.
anyway im not too worried about it. While i think that there will be some griefing my hope is that as new methods are developed the devs quickly address the issue.
Remember that in PfO getting your account or character banned is a much bigger threat than in say wow. In wow ill just create another character and in a week they will be maxed level and able to continue what they were doing without any issue.
In PfO if your character is a year old and it gets banned you lose a year of training. So now that griefer has to create a new character that they cannot power level. they suffer a real and total lose of power and effectiveness. Go straight to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
This is different than EVE in the fact that EVE is very hands off as far as griefing and ganking. In PfO griefing and harassment as not being accepted so while in EVE you are not worried about losing the last 5 years worth of training, in PfO you have to be worried about that.
I think that will limit some of the toxic players once they understand that. Sure they can do all those things, but the price is they fall far behind the power curve as the game goes on. In a couple of years they will need to roll with a group of 5-6 people just to take on one T3 person (due to limited skills, armor, and ability to use keywords). As a result they will not be able to effectively engage in the behavior they want to.
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Why is "one-step" necessary? Why can we not choose who lives in our settlements? Kinda makes it seem like we really aren't in control and are more on the rails than we originally thought.
I really don't see the problem here. In pretty much every MMO with PvP focus you have to choose a faction and this system is actually looser than rigid factions. Settlements have to be within one step of the Nation. Characters have to be within one step of the settlement. Or something like that, it's pretty broad strokes.
The only real problem is if you are trying to make a nation comprised of Chaotic evil characters and Lawful Good characters, in which case you would be making a mockery of roleplaying alignments.
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Thanks Pax Areks for posting that. For those Goblin Squad Members who haven't done so yet, please read the free Guide to the River Kingdoms PDF you received with your Kickstarter pledge.
Once you have done that, then maybe you will end your confusion as to how banditry is not viewed as morally wrong, or evil, but is in fact socially acceptable. The majority of the River Kingdoms are ruled by "BANDIT KINGS", which is why the over all alignment of the region is Chaotic Neutral.
In the River Kingdoms, a Lawful Good Paladin is probably viewed as a "Sociopath", and the pirate or bandit is an upstanding citizen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks Pax Areks for posting that. For those Goblin Squad Members who haven't done so yet, please read the free Guide to the River Kingdoms PDF you received with your Kickstarter pledge.
Once you have done that, then maybe you will end your confusion as to how banditry is not viewed as morally wrong, or evil, but is in fact socially acceptable. The majority of the River Kingdoms are ruled by "BANDIT KINGS", which is why the over all alignment of the region is Chaotic Neutral.
In the River Kingdoms, a Lawful Good Paladin is probably viewed as a "Sociopath", and the pirate or bandit is an upstanding citizen.
I think it's pretty safe to say that PFO River Kingdoms will not be regualr River Kingdoms. If it were it wouldn't be a sandbox. What you guys are griping about is not in the best interest of the game to be honest. No, Paladins and Necromancers should NOT be forming meta nations anymore than the Alliance and the Horde should be.
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I dont think that a paladin will be viewed as a sociopath. maybe an uptight prick who is getting in the way of (dis)honest folks, and i dont think that pirates or bandits are under any illusion that they are crusading heros. They might look at themselves as folks just trying to make a living any way they can.
Banditry is morally wrong. Is it evil though, na. I do think that bandits will add to the game as they introduce risk, i do not think that bandits should expect to be praised by everyone for doing what they do.
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Why is "one-step" necessary? Why can we not choose who lives in our settlements? Kinda makes it seem like we really aren't in control and are more on the rails than we originally thought.
Because without any game mechanics to enforce the alignment system, a large number of players will have a huge disconnect between the alignment they claim their character is, and the actions that character takes.
A character that is a freedom loving, anti-authoritarian who loves justice and mercy (CG) simply would not devote their loyalty and services to a settlement that imposes strict order, hierarchy and callous disregard for the weak (LE).
However, there will be lots of PFO players that want to think of themselves as CG, while acting LE because thats the best way to win a territory-control game.
The only solution is to have your actions determine your alignment, and to have systematically imposed consequences of being a certain alignment.
In a Tabletop home game, a character can be the special snowflake who really is CG and is forcing himself to work with the LE authorities for whatever reason.
In a game system designed for thousands of characters to interact, you can't be that flexible.
That's why Pathfinder Society organized play straight out bans evil PCs, and the GM can actually penalize players for acting contrary to their declared alignment.
For a bit of reductio ad absurdum, I think we can all agree that a Paladin and a Necromancer shouldn't be cooperating to build a stronghold, and that if the game mechanics didn't prevent this scenario, players would do it. LE and CG are at least as incompatible as the paladin and the necromancer. NE and NG are hard to imagine together as well.. where would you draw the line if not at the one-step difference?
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@ Avari,
Using that rationale, why does PFO have to be "regular PF RPG" at all?
That bit of rhetoric aside....
What is the probability that any large community (in the thousands) will not be inhabited by citizens that represent all walks of life?
I'll use this bit of real life, which a rarely do, but is stands to reason in a fantasy setting:
I live in a town of less than 10,000 residents. It is a quiet and mostly rural community of people that are generally lawful and good to neutral. Yet, at any given time we have up to the maximum of 10 child predators living in several locations in our town. These chaotic evil animals live among us. They shop in the same stores, walk the same streets and go to the same town festivals.
In a fantasy setting or any setting, it does not compute that one step alignment is even possible, let alone enforceable. A game mechanic can be created to do it, but that will no longer be a "sand box". GW would be creating mini theme parks within a sand box.
What if after EE and well into OE, there is not one settlement that caters to LG as a primary alignment? Where will the Paladins or LG Monks go for their upper tier training?
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Below are examples of civilizations that are not within the alignment constraints that have been mentioned. A nation that is N. A CN nation that has a LG settlement.
I don't think I would use the River Kingdoms as a model for a successful player-created nation.
"The Kingdoms are by no means a unified nation, but rather a constantly shifting group of city-states and fiefdoms, each at war with the others both to gain more power and to prevent their own demise. "
The River Kingdoms exist by DM fiat. Once you try to actually think about how this society could maintain itself, you need to modify it into something more realistic.
For example, who grows the food for these settlements full of bandits?
I think the mistake Bluddwolf is making when he constantly cites the River Freedoms would be akin to an anthropologist trying to envision American society using only the Bill of Rights.
I can recognize the right to free speech as an ideal, but in practice I don't think people that shout racial epithets at passersby are "upstanding citizens."
In the same way, the average resident of the river kingdoms that claims to uphold the river freedoms, most likely doesn't think pirates and bandits are the pinnacle of society.
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@ Stephen - I am wondering why divergence from the Golarion standard is necessary? Below are examples of civilizations that are not within the alignment constraints that have been mentioned. A nation that is N. A CN nation that has a LG settlement. Another NG nation that has a LN settlement and a NE settlement.
How is this reconciled? NPCs can do it but PCs can't? Just pretend it's not that way?
The most important question that might be, why is this necessary? All we've seen is "There's going to be a one step limit, then there might not be because it's too harsh, now there is."
If alignment is suppose to be almost undetectable, how do the NPCs know not to allow you to live there? How does the Company leader know not to accept you or are they gonna get a big red flashing box saying "This person is the wrong alignment for your company."
Why is "one-step" necessary? Why can we not choose who lives in our settlements? Kinda makes it seem like we really aren't in control and are more on the rails than we originally thought.
...While we haven't talked much about them lately, nations as a group of settlements are still in the design (they're just a little further out than settlements). I believe the expectation is still that you can link several differently aligned settlements within one step of a nation. We may or may not let you make a true neutral nation, though, so there may be two corners of the grid that you can't get in a single nation.
You can also be part of a company that's friendly with a settlement and thus allowed access and training without being sponsored.
In general, though, we want to make it challenging for you to balance players at either end of the alignment spectrum, because if it's not giving you meaningful, hard choices, there's not a lot of reason to have alignment.
I don't think alignment has ever been billed as a roleplaying system. Everything I have read is that it is mechanical and based on incentives and segregating bases for training purposes.
Thus in my mind the heavy hitters in this community need to plan in light of that realization, ourselves included.
From a meta view the considerations are:
What is the best alignment from a recruitment angle? (niches not filled, possible initial training monopolies, etc)
What is the best choice for mechanical advantages?
In light of the above, which choice bringing in the majority of the internal member base?