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And it's still inappropriate.
So you didn't have anything to say when Astral Wanderer was making jokes at the expense of gay and bisexual men and women, but you are stepping in to defend cisgender people from an image macro?
And it's still inappropriate.So you didn't have anything to say when Astral Wanderer was making jokes at the expense of gay and bisexual men and women, but you are stepping in to defend cisgender people from an image macro?
You mean this?
Have you looked at Dwarves? Well, they looked at one another, and since they can't tell their men from their women, they probably reproduce only to swell their numbers and with the least possible contact.
Considering that most people are heterosexual and I'd never want to do the deed with a woman, I don't see why it's so offensive making a joke about heterosexual people not wanting to have sex with people of the same gender as them (altough it's still a little weird).
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No, I reject the claim that it's biologically determined.How is it determined, then?
It's socially constituted, obviously.
Generally, cisgender heterosexuals have a difficult time recognize their privilege, and in turn do things like make "jokes" at the expense of queer folks.I know that, but that image does not say "cisgender heterosexual" and gay men and lesbians may be (and most are) cisgendered. And it's still inappropriate.
Yes, and on the occasions that cisgender gay men and lesbians perpetuate the oppression of trans men and women, they are being bad people too. But it's worth noting that the oppression of queer folk isn't a product of a few "bad gays." It arises out of the dominance of cisgender heterosexuals, and the marginalization of all others.
Are you really having a hard time seeing how the "joke" about gender ambiguous dwarves was a dig at non-heterosexual or non-cisgender conforming individuals, which makes up the group of people generally referred to as queer folk? If you don't understand the "humor," don't defend it.
I'm not that interesting in getting into a respectability debate here with you. I'm not going to play into these politics of turning cisgender heterosexuals into the victims of queer villainy. If you don't understand the message, just let it go.
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No, I reject the claim that it's biologically determined.How is it determined, then?It's socially constituted, obviously.
Generally, cisgender heterosexuals have a difficult time recognize their privilege, and in turn do things like make "jokes" at the expense of queer folks.I know that, but that image does not say "cisgender heterosexual" and gay men and lesbians may be (and most are) cisgendered. And it's still inappropriate.Yes, and on the occasions that cisgender gay men and lesbians perpetuate the oppression of trans men and women, they are being bad people too. But it's worth noting that the oppression of queer folk isn't a product of a few "bad gays." It arises out of the dominance of cisgender heterosexuals, and the marginalization of all others.
Are you really having a hard time seeing how the "joke" about gender ambiguous dwarves wasn't a dig at non-heterosexual/cisgender conforming individuals, which makes up the group of people generally referred to as queer folk? If you don't understand the "humor," don't defend it.
I'm not that interesting in getting into a respectability debate here with you. I'm not going to play into these politics of turning straight heterosexuals into the victims of queer villainy. If you don't understand the message, just let it go.
How nice of you to tell those poor misguided asexuals that the fact they don't want to have sex is a product of the way they were brought up, and if they had lived in a different socitey they'd get the joys of sex. [/SARCASM]
And I'm not really defending him, I'm just saying that while making a joke (and I'd like you to explain to me why it's so offensive to you) may be bad, saying "let's space him!" is certainly no better.
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How nice of you to tell those poor misguided asexuals that the fact they don't want to have sex is a product of the way they were brought up, and if they had lived in a different socitey they'd get the joys of sex. [/SARCASM]
If you don't understand the content of the idea that sexuality is socially constructed, then don't talk about it. Hint: it doesn't mean what you seem to think.
(Going back on topic...)
I like the way Strayshift thought it out. Makes it feel kind of like a boulder rolling down a hill, slowly picking up speed. The idea of small subtleties is intriguing. I'm just imagining how a male might braid his beard a certain way, perhaps with specific beads. Perhaps he wears the axe at his belt different than usual. For the ladies, they wear their hair down instead of up. They wear a specific color and manner of dress. They eat specific foods.
Interesting to think about really. When I imagine Elven courtship, I always imagine these GRANDIOSE gestures of love, as big and as fanciful as they can accomplish. So I think it fits rather well that Dwarven courtship would be extremely subtle, but direct. Elves might flit about with their words, but Dwarves, though subtle, make the meaning very clear. Perhaps it also builds up that sense of efficiency that dwarves seem to share. Why waste so much time bandying about with unclear intent, when you can do something small and simple and make the message clear?
As for homo/hetero... I dunno. I'd wager that it wouldn't be uncommon. And perhaps I'm showing a little bias here, but I'd wager dwarves may be a little less frequently homosexual. Due to their very strict and traditional nature, I'd likely wager that homosexuality would be something frowned upon, since it does nothing to contribute to clan. Maybe if they had a man/woman on the side, they would be given a pass as long as they continued to reproduce for the sake of the clan. Or perhaps they totally separate personal desire from clan duty, where in the culture as long as you maintain your wife/husband and have at least one/two children, then what you do in bed and who you do it with is your own business. Thinking of it that way, I might see it more towards the second nature, cause it's falling back on efficiency. No reason to prevent someone from doing something as long as they get their "work" out of the way.
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The problem with the dwarf scenario isn't the asexuality. It's, as rooboy said, that they're unlikely to have evolved to that stage (asexuality is the norm) or been created that way, and conflating asexuality with aromanticity.
I'd also note, there is an easy enough way around this. If you presume that Dwarves have a creation myth wherein they spring forth fully, and are then commanded to have children, that would explain how they didn't just die out. But something has to exist to explain why the first dwarves, uninterested in reproducing, didn't just pass into history.
Also, I still think a race that derives no (or almost no) pleasure from sex, is less likely to be hetero-normative (unless, again, you have some external reason for why that came to be). If sex is no longer an issue, why would the culture even have evolved in a way that forms life-bonds between people of the same sex? Either they do have romantic feelings, and it shouldn't matter because love is love, or they don't have romantic feelings, and more pragmatic considerations than reproduction should probably take the lead.
There's a difference between lack of sexual interest and sexual repression though. If the idea is that dwarves are sexually repressed, there are lots of real world cultures that you can model them off of. Note that repressed cultures are almost the opposite of people that aren't interested in sex. Repressed cultures are typically of people VERY interested in sex, and if that's the case, there will be a lot of underground "deviant" (in this case, meaning different from whatever the norm is) sexual behavior.
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How nice of you to tell those poor misguided asexuals that the fact they don't want to have sex is a product of the way they were brought up, and if they had lived in a different socitey they'd get the joys of sex. [/SARCASM]
And I'm not really defending him, I'm just saying that while making a joke (and I'd like you to explain to me why it's so offensive to you) may be bad, saying "let's space him!" is certainly no better.
If you don't understand the idea of social construction, don't talk about it. That is the simplest solution.
To say something is socially constituted is not to say that it is learned. To claim that one is "asexual" requires that notions about sexuality and sexual sexual desire be socially constituted in such a way that the utterance "I am asexual" is intelligible. Asexuality, homosexuality, gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, demisexual, straight and heterosexuality are all socially constituted. The blithe claim that appealing to a biomedical authority of essential asexuality doesn't change the fact that the idea of "asexuality" is socially constituted. Even biomedical knowledge is socially constructed. This is often a difficult pill for folks to swallow, but it has been supported by sociology and philosophy of science for over fifty years.
And you are (and are still) defending him: see your response to Vivianne Laflamme.
And the suggestion to "space him" was actually put forth by the President of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, under suspicion of "scummery" because the joke (and subsequent deflection) constituted an instance of marginalizing queer folks. I think the important term here is "scum," which clearly references scum-like behavior. There are plenty of decent cis people, many of which I am sure Laura Roslin would be uninterested in putting out the airlock.
BTW: I am still uninterested in respectability politics.
The problem with the dwarf scenario isn't the asexuality. It's, as rooboy said, that they're unlikely to have evolved to that stage (asexuality is the norm) or been created that way, and conflating asexuality with aromanticity.I'd also note, there is an easy enough way around this. If you presume that Dwarves have a creation myth wherein they spring forth fully, and are then commanded to have children, that would explain how they didn't just die out. But something has to exist to explain why the first dwarves, uninterested in reproducing, didn't just pass into history.
Also, I still think a race that derives no (or almost no) pleasure from sex, is less likely to be hetero-normative (unless, again, you have some external reason for why that came to be). If sex is no longer an issue, why would the culture even have evolved in a way that forms life-bonds between people of the same sex? Either they do have romantic feelings, and it shouldn't matter because love is love, or they don't have romantic feelings, and more pragmatic considerations than reproduction should probably take the lead.
There's a difference between lack of sexual interest and sexual repression though. If the idea is that dwarves are sexually repressed, there are lots of real world cultures that you can model them off of. Note that repressed cultures are almost the opposite of people that aren't interested in sex. Repressed cultures are typically of people VERY interested in sex, and if that's the case, there will be a lot of underground "deviant" (in this case, meaning different from whatever the norm is) sexual behavior.
I was always suspicious when I walked into the one dwarven home and the walls were decorated with S&M gear. I thought he was a collector, now I know the truth!
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What's wrong with dwarves feeling moderate to intense social pressure to create family units without any societal bias against lesbian, gay, bi, or trans pairings? As long as there is a stable family structure to raise and nuture children, why would other dwarves care who conceived/birthed the children or if the children are adopted?
I'd think that within their society, any bias against non-hetero or non-cis or asexual parents would be greatly overshadowed by the real aberrations: adventuring dwarves! Heck, anyone who adopts the children of killed/absentee adventuring dwarves would be esteemed within the clan and dwarven society.
How nice of you to tell those poor misguided asexuals that the fact they don't want to have sex is a product of the way they were brought up, and if they had lived in a different socitey they'd get the joys of sex. [/SARCASM]
And I'm not really defending him, I'm just saying that while making a joke (and I'd like you to explain to me why it's so offensive to you) may be bad, saying "let's space him!" is certainly no better.
If you don't understand the idea of social construction, don't talk about it. That is the simplest solution.
To say something is socially constituted is not to say that it is learned. To claim that one is "asexual" requires that notions about sexuality and sexual sexual desire be socially constituted in such a way that the utterance "I am asexual" is intelligible. Asexuality, homosexuality, gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, demisexual, straight and heterosexuality are all socially constituted. The blithe claim that appealing to a biomedical authority of essential asexuality doesn't change the fact that the idea of "asexuality" is socially constituted. Even biomedical knowledge is socially constructed. This is often a difficult pill for folks to swallow, but it has been supported by sociology and philosophy of science for over fifty years.
And you are (and are still) defending him: see your response to Vivianne Laflamme.
And the suggestion to "space him" was actually put forth by the President of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, under suspicion of "scummery" because the joke (and subsequent deflection) constituted an instance of marginalizing queer folks. I think the important term here is "scum," which clearly references scum-like behavior. There are plenty of decent cis people, many of which I am sure Laura Roslin would be uninterested in putting out the airlock.
BTW: I am still uninterested in respectability politics.
Me: you reject asexuality?
You: No, I reject the claim that it's biologically determinedMe: How is it determined, then?
You: It's socially constituted, obviously. <-- which I took to mean determined by upbringing (sorry, English is not my first language)
Me: /sarcastic rant about how sexuality is not a result of upbringing/
You: If you don't know what you're talking about shut up.
So you're answering "society puts names on things" (if that's not what it means you'll have to explain it to me again) when I asked "if sexuality is not biological, what it is?"?
I think you understand that the only humor to be found in your "joke" was as the expense of gay men and lesbians. Good dodge though.
I think you'd understand humor better if you didn't live in constant and utter self-defense.
But I've seen people argue even about racism in things like the "Black Guard" name, go wonder how personal issues reduce people's minds.
To attempt not to derail this conversation any further. I am going to sum up what I believe your idea is before responding. Your idea is that dwarves have no biological interest in sex whatsoever. Literally, the only sex that happens is a function of duty to clan/king/whatever to propagate their species.
Just that part is kind of an interesting idea, but three questions: One, how did they evolve to this point? Do they have a mating season (like a wild animal, or a Vulcan) during which they breed? Otherwise I fail to see how they would have survived a generation or so. Something needs to explain that part.
Two, why don't they just use magic and skip the sex part completely?
Three, wouldn't that actually imply a non hetero-normative culture? For example, there are two ways to take this idea, one is that romantic love (still possible, without sex) is what leads to all matches. If that were the case, there seems little reason to exclude any two people from entering into a relationship. In that instance, there would probably be less aversion to relationships with other races either (though the other race might find it off-putting). At the opposite extreme would be the idea that no romantic love exists (or is suppressed by the culture), in that situation, if I need to form an alliance between my clan and that clan, and we only have daughters, wouldn't I just arrange a marriage between them? I'm assuming in this variant that the only reason to have a marriage is for some other reason.
I must admit that I hadn't thought that far ahead.
I haven't read Dwarves of Golarion. I know they come from the darklands, but is there specific origin they are given?
As for how they survived more than a generation. Divine mandate to keep their numbers to a certain level. Assuming a war time environment or just tradition in general there might be a "It's your time and your Duty" type social tradition that dictates when it is time for crafting an offspring.
Assuming the existence of outliers adventuring dwarves could be those who actually want to get some outside of offspring crafting or those who say "We are not in the constant danger like during the quest for the sky. I'll let someone else do the child crafting."
Could also pick up some of the Discworld stuff, where the majority of Dwarven courtship rituals is very subtly trying to determine the gender of the Dwarf you are interested in.
Just under their culture Dwarves are very tradition and ritual bound. They are also a slow and patient people. Marriage is probably for Life and with a few hundred year lifespan they might be a little more careful about who they end up with. Maybe it comes down to who can they work with for long periods of time. Wife tends the Forge while Hubby tends the Anvil.
Maybe the Male spends a year making an engagement gift.
Gets more important in a setting like Obsidian Apocalypse where the Dwarf race has become infertile and no young have been born for a hundred years.
In general the courtship rituals of non-human races could be an interesting exercise in world making.
If you want to talk about a race with a low sexual drive, it's clearly the ELVES. They have like 1 or 2 children over a 700 yr marriage. For all the poetry and romance it's pretty cear they are only actually getting on when the 5 moons and 21 planets are in the proper alignment.
You want a race full of hornbugs...halflings my friend. That's race who can't get enough of the carnal pleasures.
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I must admit that I hadn't thought that far ahead.
I haven't read Dwarves of Golarion. I know they come from the darklands, but is there specific origin they are given?
As for how they survived more than a generation. Divine mandate to keep their numbers to a certain level. Assuming a war time environment or just tradition in general there might be a "It's your time and your Duty" type social tradition that dictates when it is time for crafting an offspring.
Assuming the existence of...
I believe on Golarion dwarves were forged by Torag. SLIGHT DERAILMENT: If that's the case, why don't dwarves just do the Hippolyta/Wonder Woman thing and forge their own children. Get them blessed by the local priest of Torag and BOOM ... baby dwarves. BACK ON TOPIC: I think you're describing a culture that's more repressed than uninterested. Note, I'm not using "repressed" as a bad thing, "restrained" is probably a better word. In that instance, I would presume that dwarves have more subtle courtship rituals than other races.
If you want to talk about a race with a low sexual drive, it's clearly the ELVES. They have like 1 or 2 children over a 700 yr marriage. For all the poetry and romance it's pretty cear they are only actually getting on when the 5 moons and 21 planets are in the proper alignment.
You want a race full of hornbugs...halflings my friend. That's race who can't get enough of the carnal pleasures.
I don't know. I think they are described as having a low fertility rate. So a only a few children wouldn't really describe their bedroom life. Then you take Calistria into consideration and i'm inclined to continue with my original "Like rabbits" statement.
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If you want to talk about a race with a low sexual drive, it's clearly the ELVES. They have like 1 or 2 children over a 700 yr marriage. For all the poetry and romance it's pretty cear they are only actually getting on when the 5 moons and 21 planets are in the proper alignment.
I always kind of imagined the elves were like the Asari in Mass Effect, interested until a relatively young age (like 150 or so) and then just kind of bored of the entire topic after that. Sort of a "sowing their oats" phase, and then complete lack of interest after that. It allows for elves to rebuild their population somewhat quickly (after war or what not) while explaining why there are so few children.
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In general the courtship rituals of non-human races could be an interesting exercise in world making.I agree. It's a lot of fun for me to work on those type of social aspects when building a people to inhabit my world. I've made dwarven families extremely equal and loving. Dour and gruff to outsiders but the relationship between husband and wife, parent and child is as sacred and enduring as the armor and arms they craft in the forge. A dwarf's family is the craft forged in the heart, versus the craft forged in fire. Yeah, it's kind of idealistic, but it makes me happy.
With Halflings I have gone with polyamory as a cultural norm. The birth rate is two females for every male. With it understood that marriage is GOING TO HAPPEN to nearly every single male they have sort of their own Rumspringa where they go out into the world and come home after a few years with stories and maybe a little coin in their pocket to start the family. They have a wife and often aunties that are secondary moms to the rugrats if not actual wifes themselves. The home and society are run by the women and the men just sort of are along for the ride.
Actually the Wicked Fantasy setting touches on it a lot with their races.
Course Dwarves there are literally carved out of rock. "When a Star Falls that`s a new Dwarf, get yer pick axe we gotta go get our new brother." If a Dwarf gets too depressed (or not drunk enough) they actually revert to stone.
Their Goblins are the fun ones "Each Goblin can be both male and female depending on the season, the age of the goblin and a few other factors."
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Just to touch upon several points, while a large part of the way our culture interprets sexuality and related social mores is, in fact cultural, underlying that is biology. If our ancestors were hermaphroditic, changed sex with age, or had fixed portions of the year where we were fertile, I don't think you would get the same human societies. If our ancestors lived in giant colonies, or dwelled alone in the wilderness, it would probably also result in major differences.
The funnest part of world building is trying to factor those differences into the setting. If Dwarves were truly disinterested in sex (say they feel no pleasure in it because they are not wired that way), how does that factor into their development? Why did they end up that way? Did their creator god just not think of that when putting them together? Were they cursed by another god? How are children raised in such a society? Does the concept of marriage even exist? Are there tensions between sexes? Those are questions I like to think about
Just to touch upon several points, while a large part of the way our culture interprets sexuality and related social mores is, in fact cultural, underlying that is biology. If our ancestors were hermaphroditic, changed sex with age, or had fixed portions of the year where we were fertile, I don't think you would get the same human societies. If our ancestors lived in giant colonies, or dwelled alone in the wilderness, it would probably also result in major differences.
The funnest part of world building is trying to factor those differences into the setting. If Dwarves were truly disinterested in sex (say they feel no pleasure in it because they are not wired that way), how does that factor into their development? Why did they end up that way? Did their creator god just not think of that when putting them together? Were they cursed by another god? How are children raised in such a society? Does the concept of marriage even exist? Are there tensions between sexes? Those are questions I like to think about
Robotech's Zentraudi
Males and females born in test tubes and raised apart in separate military units. Completely antagonistic towards each other.
Their Goblins are the fun ones "Each Goblin can be both male and female depending on the season, the age of the goblin and a few other factors."
Goblins are never asexual...and we do it in the streets!
Their Goblins are the fun ones "Each Goblin can be both male and female depending on the season, the age of the goblin and a few other factors."Goblins are never asexual...and we do it in the streets!
another quote from Wicked Fantasy
"Goblins will not have sex with other races. As one Goblin put it, 'You wouldn't know what to do.'"Honestly their Goblins are almost as much fun as the standard Pathfinder ones. Less stupid and violent but still lots of fun.
Back to Dwarves though
Pulled out my Dwarves of Golarion book.
Dwarves never tire of life. Hard Work is considered virtuous. Stability is part of both their Physical and Mental state of being.
There is a section of Fashion. Traditionally attire and grooming were strictly regulated but that has changed since they came to the surface. Now they are adapting human clothing both for fashion and utility. Frilly is avoided cause it gets in the way of work. Clothing is made to last with extra stitches, layers and padding where it's expected to wear out.
Men have Long Beards and women have long hair. Both braid them to keep them out of the way of work. Both wear ornaments and tokens in their hair to signify personal achievements and reminders of important events; Births, marriages and battles won or lost. It is not unusual to wear a token that represents a promise by another dwarf or a promise made to that dwarf by another.
Dwarves have lots of small rituals and celebrations in their daily lives.
So lets put all that together in courtship
Work comes first in a lot of things. So a spouse better not be someone who gets in the way of work. Stability is important so Marriage isn't something that is going to disrupt their lives. Dwarf couple is very likely to be in the same profession or better yet complimentary professions.
You don't want to disrupt your girl's routine by bothering her too much and you don't want to get in her way so courtship probably is subtle. There is probably a lot of traditional rituals involved in it as well.
Beard token probably takes the place of engagement and wedding rings
Since coming to the surface though some human thinking seems to have set in so you might see Flowers or Candies but the ideas would probably take a more practical twist to them. If your girl works the forges give her a a bouquet of herbs that are good for soothing burns
just a thought don't know if this has been covered but if two dwarf where gay it would more come of as a strong bond of brotherhood like to warrior you cant separate in battle so most people would never know.
an with they way they ten to be like a rock showing little to people about what going on in side it a surprise we don't just believe that they are grown form the rocks them self's
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another quote from Wicked Fantasy
"Goblins will not have sex with other races.
Well, that's just plain, factually incorrect.
As one Goblin put it, 'You wouldn't know what to do.'"Okay, well, that part is often true.
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Given the dwarven great love of making things, I have a hard time thinking of them as asexual. The simplest way to read their biological underpinnings is that they tend toward high-commitment mating strategies, and dwarven craftsmanship can be at least partially explained as a very intense courtship display. They might only engage in physical copulation occasionally, but in my view, they would be very sexual beings, locked in intense competition in a very conformist, cooperative culture. Carving arches might be the only thing keeping them from reaching for the axes and going after each other's mates. In a high commitment mating strategy, dwarf men and women would probably both be highly competitive. From a reproductive standpoint, homosexuality would be a diversion of energy; it would be unlikely that homosexual dwarves are any more randy than their heterosexual friends; homosexual dwarves would want to be intensely interested in nurturing their nieces and nephews and furthering their clan, if they didn't want their genetic inheritance to breed out.
Also, a people who live in caves, castles, and apartments strike me as very womb-oriented.
How do you know that dwarves aren't actually functional hermaphrodites, that can choose which gender their bodies manifest... but the vast majority of them prefer to function as male?
It would certainly explain the stories of bearded female dwarves.
because then cursed item that change gender would have no effect on then and we know :)
another quote from Wicked Fantasy
"Goblins will not have sex with other races.Well, that's just plain, factually incorrect.
As one Goblin put it, 'You wouldn't know what to do.'"Okay, well, that part is often true.
You little buggers dry-humping legs can be pretty awkward, yes.