[Proposal] "Unique" Items on Chronicles - Unique, or just Wrong?


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4/5 *

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BACKGROUND: Some Chronicles have adjustments that need to be made by GMs before they can be given to players, because the item as listed doesn't exist.

Examples:
For example, Season 0 Chronicles have some old v3.5 items. Per this post (by an old campaign coordinator but recently confirmed by Mike), if the old item has a PFRPG equivalent, the GM crosses out the item listed and write in the PFRPG item instead. Any item that no longer exists under PFRPG is crossed off and not replaced.

For most things, this is fine: the 3.5 cloak of charisma +2 becomes a headband of alluring charisma +2 - same effect, same price, so you swap the old one with the PFRPG version. (So it is now a headband slot item and not a shoulder slot item.) Items like the old gauntlets of ogre power are functionally and price-wise the equivalent of a belt of giant strength +2, so they get replaced on the Chronicle as well.)


Now, there are items on Chronicles that don't exist in the Pathfinder rule set; however, in most cases these are called out as unique, or have their full item description printed on the Chronicle. These are clearly intended to be special items available only through that scenario. (Side note: I love Chronicle access to unique items!)

However, there is a recent Chronicle which lists a +1 keen longbow. This not only does't exist in the Pathfinder rule set, it *can't*, since the keen weapon property can only be applied to slashing or piercing melee weapons. The item is either a mistake by the rules, or an exception to them. It's also not covered by the post in the "Examples" above, since it's not a Season 0 conversion issue. So, the short-term question is, what happens to that item on the Chronicle?

Rather than case-by-case rulings, it's probably better to have an overall policy for GMs to refer to, so here's an idea.

PROPOSAL: Any item listed on a Chronicle sheet that does not conform to the Pathfinder RPG ruleset must be removed from the Chronicle sheet. If the item has a Pathfinder equivalent (same function, same price) it is replaced by the Pathfinder item. Items which do not have a Pathfinder equivalent must have their full item description printed on the Chronicle sheet. Any item which does not meet one of these two criteria is crossed off the Chronicle sheet without replacement.

Rationale:
Even if an item is "available" via a Chronicle sheet, if it breaks the rules it isn't legal to use at the table, unless the Chronicle actually provides the rules for that item. RAW, I could buy the keen longbow, but it would not work at the table because it violates the rules. It must be a mistake - if it were intended to work, it wouldn't be called "keen", but a new weapon property which is the equivalent for ranged weapons, which would be stated out on the Chronicle. OR, it would have a note calling it out as a unique item.

(There's probably an extension that if an item like the +1 keen longbow can't go on the Chronicle sheet because it's illegal, then it probably shouldn't be used against the players in the scenario, either... but that's a development question and not a "how do I as GM fill out the Chronicle?" question.)

Please FAQ this so it can get some official attention. The current example of the longbow is a pretty big game-changer that shouldn't be subject to table variation.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Although Keen is normally only allowed for melee weapons, it's fairly easy to understand how a +1 keen longbow works.

If someone showed up with a Chronicle that granted access to such a weapon, and the character had purchased it, I don't see why I should not allow them to use it.

I believe this item shows up in a Season 5 scenario (I think I GMed it). I remember seeing the item and thinking to myself, "Cool", not, "This must be a mistake".

Sovereign Court 3/5

Nefreet wrote:

Although Keen is normally only allowed for melee weapons, it's fairly easy to understand how a +1 keen longbow works.

If someone showed up with a Chronicle that granted access to such a weapon, and the character had purchased it, I don't see why I should not allow them to use it.

I believe this item shows up in a Season 5 scenario (I think I GMed it). I remember seeing the item and thinking to myself, "Cool", not, "This must be a mistake".

Can it be upgraded, though? Is it like unnamed weapons that use book-given properties or does it fall under the "unique" category, then? Edited for contextual mistake

Liberty's Edge 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The fact this item shows up in a recently published and sanctioned module, and shows up on the chronicle sheet leads me to believe it was purposeful. Not a mistake.

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I disagree - I've seen that same mistake previously as well (where escapes me atm - perhaps an AP?). Keen can go on arrows, but not a bow.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Plenty of potions of personal spells make it though the scenario/module development process. That doesn't make them legal.

Grand Lodge 1/5

To the best of my knowledge keen is not a property of ranged weapons. BTW, which scenario has this available on their sheet?

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Eric Saxon wrote:
To the best of my knowledge keen is not a property of ranged weapons. BTW, which scenario has this available on their sheet?

After a recent thread about "not making lists of what's on chronicles" I would ask that the answer simply be limited to "one that was published in the past year."

And hopefully we'll get a response from John (or Mark) about whether or not this was intentional.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Yea lets not start telling people where cool stuff is located again.

Belfan- it should be John as Mark is no longer considered part of the PFS Development team. and I agree hopefully we will have an answer soon from John.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Although Keen is normally only allowed for melee weapons, it's fairly easy to understand how a +1 keen longbow works.

If someone showed up with a Chronicle that granted access to such a weapon, and the character had purchased it, I don't see why I should not allow them to use it.

I believe this item shows up in a Season 5 scenario (I think I GMed it). I remember seeing the item and thinking to myself, "Cool", not, "This must be a mistake".

Can it be upgraded, though?

I don't see why not.

Grand Lodge 4/5

This seems like an accidental boon. I'd prefer if the rules were altered for rewards in PFS that it were a proactive, conscious decision. Allowing 3.5 legal items from old chronicles doesn't seem planned. Seems like a bit of a loophole, if anything.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 ****

@Andrei: The issue being raised here is that it is an item that showed-up in a *recently* published module, not a 3.5 hold-over.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The longbow isn't composite, btw, which would make it really worth grabbing if it was. You can't even put Adaptive on it. It's just a +1 longbow with a 19-20/x3 crit range. There's a first level spell that gives you the same thing.

I don't see what the fuss is all about.

5/5 *

Nefreet wrote:

The longbow isn't composite, btw, which would make it really worth grabbing if it was. You can't even put Adaptive on it. It's just a +1 longbow with a 19-20/x3 crit range. There's a first level spell that gives you the same thing.

I don't see what the fuss is all about.

It is actually a +1 keen composite longbow (+2 Str), but Scott forgot. It's not exactly relevant to his question.

Grand Lodge 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

The longbow isn't composite, btw, which would make it really worth grabbing if it was. You can't even put Adaptive on it. It's just a +1 longbow with a 19-20/x3 crit range. There's a first level spell that gives you the same thing.

I don't see what the fuss is all about.

OH YES AND IT'S NOT LIKE THERE'S A TRACK RECORD OF TAKING AWAY ITEMS THAT CORRESPOND TO THAT FIRST LEVEL SPELL OR ANYTHING

i want my bracers back :(

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas

Note: Keen, as a weapon property, is actually incorrectly limited to melee weapons or ammunition.

Keen edge, the spell and enchanting requirement, will affect any piercing or slashing weapon, not limited to melee only.

So, my vote, is to let it be. It is not like it is overpowered or anything, since you can legally take Improved Critical for longbows, and it applies to more than one specific bow...

Grand Lodge 1/5

Can someone please tell me which scenario this boon is in? It may have relevance to the question of the OP.

Scarab Sages 4/5

I am sure Scott knows where the item is from. We have kind of been over this already. Revealing where items come from, scenario wise, is considered cheating by a vast majority of people and I think a lot of us would rather avoid that subject again. People will game the system and it really isn't fair to be exhibiting this type of behavior

Sovereign Court 3/5

Nefreet wrote:
El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Although Keen is normally only allowed for melee weapons, it's fairly easy to understand how a +1 keen longbow works.

If someone showed up with a Chronicle that granted access to such a weapon, and the character had purchased it, I don't see why I should not allow them to use it.

I believe this item shows up in a Season 5 scenario (I think I GMed it). I remember seeing the item and thinking to myself, "Cool", not, "This must be a mistake".

Can it be upgraded, though?
I don't see why not.

Because there is no citeable legal source from any Additional Resource that has a ranged Keen bow property, so it has no set value? It's mostly a point of table variance that I simply wanted to pose for discussion's sake.

3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Although Keen is normally only allowed for melee weapons, it's fairly easy to understand how a +1 keen longbow works.

If someone showed up with a Chronicle that granted access to such a weapon, and the character had purchased it, I don't see why I should not allow them to use it.

I believe this item shows up in a Season 5 scenario (I think I GMed it). I remember seeing the item and thinking to myself, "Cool", not, "This must be a mistake".

Can it be upgraded, though?
I don't see why not.
Because there is no citeable legal source from any Additional Resource that has a ranged Keen bow property, so it has no set value? It's mostly a point of table variance that I simply wanted to pose for discussion's sake.

The way I see it, it is the same keen property that is in the CRB, just mistakenly applied to a ranged weapon. You can upgrade it just like any other +2 equivalent -> +3 equivalent weapon.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Chris Mullican wrote:
I am sure Scott knows where the item is from. We have kind of been over this already. Revealing where items come from, scenario wise, is considered cheating by a vast majority of people and I think a lot of us would rather avoid that subject again. People will game the system and it really isn't fair to be exhibiting this type of behavior

So without spoiling (I hope), here's the reason why we won't come to any conclusion unless a developer responds: The +1 keen longbow (+2 str) appears as "loot" in something published in the past year. It's actually in the text and every magical item in a scenario (or module, or adventure path) is usually transferred right to the chronicle sheet. But there's no exculpatory language in the text like "this unique bow was blessed by Erastil to increase the deadliness of arrows fired from it (allowing the keen property to be applied despite the fact that a longbow is not a melee weapon)." There's nothing about a creature wielding it in a unique way. It just says "+1 keen composite longbow (+2 str)."

Who put this in?:
A developer would be responsible for going through a submission from a writer and making sure it meets all the guidelines and rules, making minor changes as necessary. Although John has been writing chronicles for some time, Mark was still doing PFS development in the first half of this year. And if Paizo's office is anything like most offices even now Mark (whose normal job is - I believe - developing the "modules" line) might still help out John with PFS scenarios or vice-versa. Anyway, until someone responds, we can't know whether this is intentional.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Although Keen is normally only allowed for melee weapons, it's fairly easy to understand how a +1 keen longbow works.

If someone showed up with a Chronicle that granted access to such a weapon, and the character had purchased it, I don't see why I should not allow them to use it.

I believe this item shows up in a Season 5 scenario (I think I GMed it). I remember seeing the item and thinking to myself, "Cool", not, "This must be a mistake".

Can it be upgraded, though?
I don't see why not.
Because there is no citeable legal source from any Additional Resource that has a ranged Keen bow property, so it has no set value? It's mostly a point of table variance that I simply wanted to pose for discussion's sake.

Keen is valued as a +1 enchantment. A +1 keen weapon would be priced at 8,000gp plus the cost of the masterwork weapon it was put on. What possible table variance could there be?

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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Referring back to Scott's original post:

1) Yes, the ruling on Season 0 Chronicle sheets that have items that no longer exist or were replaced by nearly identical items (e.g. gauntlets of giant strength +2 later replaced by belt of giant strength +2) still stands. Gauntlets, gloves, amulets, headbands, periapts, and cloaks of [ability score] +X are not legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

2) Please do bring weird anomalies in magic items to my attention. Some are fairly innocuous, such as a potion of restoration that I recall appears somewhere; it's easily as expensive as the spellcasting service and provides minimal if any advantage—not necessarily worth changing a Chronicle sheet that's been out for years. Some might be strange enough that they require immediate attention, such as a hypothetical potion of wish, +1 vorpal full plate, or even a +2 longsword that accidentally lost a digit so that it's selling for 831 gp. I'll aim to call out any such exceptional items or combinations on Chronicle sheets in the future to note that "yes, you're reading this correctly."

3) Although the keen weapon property is not something normally available on ranged weapons, it's not game-breaking. It's 50% more expensive than the bracers of falcon's aim, and each additional weapon enhancement is only more expensive for it. It's also a nice extra feature on the Chronicle sheet, and it would be at least as disruptive to remove the item from the Chronicle sheet and issue a retroactive change to all such Chronicle sheets assigned thus far as it would be to leave it as is. The keen edge spell already allows one to apply the keen property to ammunition for up to a few hours.

Again, this particular bow has this property, but keen is not available as a ranged weapon property by virtue of a character's Fame.

5/5

John Compton wrote:

Although the keen weapon property is not something normally available on ranged weapons, it's not game-breaking. It's 50% more expensive than the bracers of falcon's aim, and each additional weapon enhancement is only more expensive for it. It's also a nice extra feature on the Chronicle sheet, and it would be at least as disruptive to remove the item from the Chronicle sheet and issue a retroactive change to all such Chronicle sheets assigned thus far as it would be to leave it as is. The keen edge spell already allows one to apply the keen property to ammunition for up to a few hours.

Again, this particular bow has this property, but keen is not available as a ranged weapon property by virtue of a character's Fame.

... John... With all due respect, you may wish to reconsider this. 50% more expensive than an item that is so cheap it was banned doesn't scream acceptable, to me at least. It's also very likely to cause consternation at tables "Bows can't have Keen", "It's on this chronicle", "That's a mistake..."

Is this so hard to fix?

Edit: also, Headbands of Intelligence +X are banned, not Headbands of Vast Intellect +X?

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

Majuba wrote:
John Compton wrote:

Although the keen weapon property is not something normally available on ranged weapons, it's not game-breaking. It's 50% more expensive than the bracers of falcon's aim, and each additional weapon enhancement is only more expensive for it. It's also a nice extra feature on the Chronicle sheet, and it would be at least as disruptive to remove the item from the Chronicle sheet and issue a retroactive change to all such Chronicle sheets assigned thus far as it would be to leave it as is. The keen edge spell already allows one to apply the keen property to ammunition for up to a few hours.

Again, this particular bow has this property, but keen is not available as a ranged weapon property by virtue of a character's Fame.

... John... With all due respect, you may wish to reconsider this. 50% more expensive than an item that is so cheap it was banned doesn't scream acceptable, to me at least. It's also very likely to cause consternation at tables "Bows can't have Keen", "It's on this chronicle", "That's a mistake..."

Is this so hard to fix?

Edit: also, Headbands of Intelligence +X are banned, not Headbands of Vast Intellect +X?

*Cough* Yes, that headband did survive the item slot consolidation; you're right.

As for the 50% more than a banned item, part of my reasoning comes from the following clause. Adding anything more to that bow will just increase the effective cost of the bow further. As a +1 enhancement modifier, keen costs 6,000 gp at first. Once someone adds another +1 ability on top of that, the effective cost of keen is 10,000 gp (18,000 vs 8,000 for enhancement alone). With more weapon enhancements comes a greater and greater virtual cost for keen, not to mention a greater Fame requirement to upgrade it. It is this compared to an item in a somewhat unloved slot that always costs 4,000 gp.

I suppose the follow-up question is whether keen on a bow available from one adventure is terribly more dangerous than keen available on most melee weapons? Bows benefit from making full attacks with more frequency, but melee weapons--particularly those two-handed ones--tend to pack greater "oomph" per crit.

Is fixing the Chronice sheet too much harder than saying that that one bow is an exception to the rule? Not too much more difficult. I see it's a difficult matter either direction in terms of spreading the word. On one side we have those who will view the keen longbow as an incorrect anomaly one way or another. On the other we have folks who received the Chronicle sheet, purchased the bow, and may only discover some time later that "Whoops, you're not allowed to have that even though it appeared to be legal when you got the Chronicle sheet." Thoughts?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Conventions—Gen Con

John Compton wrote:
Is fixing the Chronice sheet too much harder than saying that that one bow is an exception to the rule? Not too much more difficult. I see it's a difficult matter either direction in terms of spreading the word. On one side we have those who will view the keen longbow as an incorrect anomaly one way or another. On the other we have folks who received the Chronicle sheet, purchased the bow, and may only discover some time later that "Whoops, you're not allowed to have that even though it appeared to be legal when you got the Chronicle sheet." Thoughts?

I would like it to stay - that chronicle sheet is already pretty good, but it's a nice unique thing on a chronicle sheet that further encourages playing it.

EDIT: It's also not too hard to prove that it's supposed to be there. Just keep a copy of the messageboard clarification on you when you run that character.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Who'd have thought that such a simple thing as keen would create such an uproar?

Leave it the way it is. If people continue to have a problem with it they can refer to this thread for the official answer.

This whole thread makes me sad, though. I don't think the people responsible for this item imagined such a negative reaction. It will likely influence future decisions about special items.

"Hey guys, how about offering a crossbow with Impact enchanted on it?"

"Pfft, did you *see* the reaction that Keen got?"

Sczarni

Personally, I like the idea of keen on a ranged weapon...other enchantments can be placed on bows and such that then impart that power on to it's ammunition, keen doesn't seem like it would be any different

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

Who'd have thought that such a simple thing as keen would create such an uproar?

Leave it the way it is. If people continue to have a problem with it they can refer to this thread for the official answer.

This whole thread makes me sad, though. I don't think the people responsible for this item imagined such a negative reaction. It will likely influence future decisions about special items.

"Hey guys, how about offering a crossbow with Impact enchanted on it?"

"Pfft, did you *see* the reaction that Keen got?"

In the future they simply must do it deliberately and give us text to that effect, rather than making a mistake and putting an illegal item on a chronicle sheet.

With the clarification it is fine the way it is.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

John Compton wrote:
Is fixing the Chronice sheet too much harder than saying that that one bow is an exception to the rule? Not too much more difficult. I see it's a difficult matter either direction in terms of spreading the word. On one side we have those who will view the keen longbow as an incorrect anomaly one way or another. On the other we have folks who received the Chronicle sheet, purchased the bow, and may only discover some time later that "Whoops, you're not allowed to have that even though it appeared to be legal when you got the Chronicle sheet." Thoughts?

I'm not sure how much work this would entail, but maybe you could change the way chronicle sheets for modules are distributed? Have them as free downloads that are added to your Downloads page. Maybe put in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play that if you receive a chronicle sheet for a module that you must add it to your Downloads. Then if you need to update the chronicle sheets everybody that has received one will also receive the notice that it has been updated.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Thanks for the answer John.

5/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yep, thanks John. Make chronicles matter!

Sczarni 4/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Wouldn't it make sense to go back to the author and/or the developer for the scenario and ask if the Keen thing was intentional? Is the item *supposed* to be an exception to the rules, or is it just a mistake?

I think it is cool to have things like this on chronicle sheets. Unique items and otherwise unavailable stuff are what makes a memorable adventure. But it seems like if that is the case, it should be spelled out as such in the text.

5/5 *** Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

I think we should keep cool and unique things like the keen longbow.

Especially with the new expanded chronicle sheets it would be nice to have some sort of note so that we know it's intentional and not an error that needs correcting to avoid the following:

---
At the moment every time we see something unusual like that we have to guess if it is:

1: A unique item that breaks the magic item creation/guidelines.

or

2: A mistake that should be corrected to a different item.
---
This isn't the type of thing that GMs should be guessing at and coming to different answers.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Especially when many respond that they cross these items off the sheets

3/5

I like it, even if it did start out as a mistake. Makes the chronicle more interesting at any rate.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Saint Caleth wrote:
I like it, even if it did start out as a mistake. Makes the chronicle more interesting at any rate.

Keep in mind the mistake is in the module, not the chronicle.

3/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
I like it, even if it did start out as a mistake. Makes the chronicle more interesting at any rate.
Keep in mind the mistake is in the module, not the chronicle.

But the player does not necessarily know that it is just copy/pasted from a mistake in the scenario. They just see something on a chronicle that they might want to buy for once.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Personally, I'm fine with the bow having keen. In fact, I might even encourage Paizo to deliberately, on rare occasions, introduce even more items that bend the rules.

For example, something as simple as a bone scythe. How often do you see this in artwork? But you can't do it in PF without some house ruling involved. Or maybe a set of +1 chain mail made from stone shaped obsidian links.

Grand Lodge 1/5

I must politely disagree. Paying the cost of a +1 weapon bonus to a bow is a tremendous boon.

Its a free feat. Now if we can add Bracers of Falcon Aim to the UE for a higher cost, I'm cool with leaving it as is but I'd like to have this free feat in another way if it is available.

I know ranged Bards, who can 'as a swift action' increase their weapon + bonuses, giving them the free 'keen' feat on their bow, puts them up 2 levels in feats.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Eric Saxon wrote:

I must politely disagree. Paying the cost of a +1 weapon bonus to a bow is a tremendous boon.

Its a free feat. Now if we can add Bracers of Falcon Aim to the UE for a higher cost, I'm cool with leaving it as is but I'd like to have this free feat in another way if it is available.

I know ranged Bards, who can 'as a swift action' increase their weapon + bonuses, giving them the free 'keen' feat on their bow, puts them up 2 levels in feats.

I am concerned about how freely you are throwing about the term "free," when all of the references you have made have some cost—be it gp cost, action cost, and/or opportunity cost.

Grand Lodge 1/5

I don't think gp is hard to come by, its not easy by any means but it can be accumulated. If my ranged fighter who will be 12 this coming Tuesday could trade in his +5 bow for a +4 keen bow, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Yeesh. I'd take the +5 bow. Overcome alignment-based DR? Yes, please! You can't take a feat to cover that.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Nefreet wrote:
Yeesh. I'd take the +5 bow. Overcome alignment-based DR? Yes, please! You can't take a feat to cover that.

Some PC builds don't have to. A bard player I know, can add +3 to his bow at lvl. 9. Give him a +2 keen bow and as a swift action he turns it into a +5 keen bow.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

(Depends on whether my archer has Clustered Shot or not. If so, then keen; if not, then getting through DR)

Grand Lodge 1/5

And for 72,000 you can have a +5 Keen, which means you don't need Improved Critical or Clustered Shots and then your average lvl. 10 Fighter build gets truly broken. :) Especially if you can get that free feat for a single atonement in one of the S5 scenarios. (don't remember which one at this point)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

And this is going to typically be for post level 12 play. So who cares?

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Eric wrote:
...free feat for just the price of an atonement ..."

I really don't think that word means what you think it means. But please, go ahead.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Phoenix

Eric Saxon wrote:
I don't think gp is hard to come by, its not easy by any means but it can be accumulated.

You still have to spend the gold on it. So it is not 'free'.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Ok, I know its not FREE but it feels like its dirt cheap almost to the point of it being free.

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