My character has recently acquired the true name of a pit fiend. I was thinking about trying to sell the name, and was wondering if there were specific rules or guidelines for this. I was thinking someone in Cheliax might be interested, but how much could I conceivably ask for it? Thoughts? Ideas?
I think selling it is a good way to seek suicide (or, at best, trouble). Beyond what Hell itself might or might not do about it, you're selling something that you will still be able to use after the bargain, and a customer (moreover, a Devil's name customer) wouldn't want that to happen.
Even in the case where you have the name written in a scroll that you haven't read, the customer can't have certainty of that, the only way to be sure is having you dead.
But well, in case your GM is oblivious about such things, good for you. Basically, you could ask for anything you want, since it's a powerful thing. The only limit is who you propose it to and what makes your GM upset.
i like it.
Loremasters, deviners, paladins, clerics, would pay good money for it.
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As for a value, I suggest something around 67,000 gp.
My justification is that a Pit Fiend is a CR 20 monster.
If you are using the Medium advancement track, this is the average amount of treasure for a CR 20 encounter.
When the Pit Fiend comes to kick your @$$, you are going to have a CR 20 encounter.
The Sweater Golem beat me to it.
Though, as a GM, it depends heavily on how you handle the sale, how you acquired the name, and how you handle yourself thereafter as to whether or not the Pit Fiend actually came for you later.
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...When the Pit Fiend comes to kick your @$$, you are going to have a CR 20 encounter.
You know, unless he brings his "friends".
I would assume that hell would attempt to kill you sveral times over before you could successful complete the transaction. Even if you did manage it they would still probably try to kill you. And the person you sold it to. And your family. And your friends.
Yes. I'd quite like it if a player attempted to do this.
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There are no specific rules or guidelines for selling a true name. I personally would advise though that the absolutely maximum price would be the encounter treasure level for a monster of the devil's CR.
This price assumes that you're selling it to someone who specifically needs or wants that devil's name. It'd take research and care to find the right person to sell it to. Also for a good aligned character you'd want to be wary of their motivations in knowing that true name.
I'd drop the price to around 50% for anyone who could use the name, but isn't specifically after it.
Both above prices are also on the assumption that the deal is exclusive. Knowing the true name of a devil is much less useful if everyone else knows it to. The PC would have to convince the buyer that the deal will remain exclusive. If dealing with evil buyers, then you have the worry that the easiest way to make sure that it's exclusive is to murder you and raising you as a subservient undead to prevent your soul passing the knowledge on to the outer planes.
A wizard would probably only pay around 5-10% of any of the above prices if they couldn't be guaranteed a level of exclusivity to the deal.
As always, this is up to your GM to determine, so they may have different ideas. This is how I would run it though.
True Names have rules. And other rules. Just not rules for selling them, as has been said.
What's fascinating is that a pit fiend, by it's very nature, is entirely immune to the first version (greater planar binding being the "go to" spell there for "big, powerful outsiders").
However, based on that, I might suggest it works similarly, to gate (the next closest effect in the Planar Binding line) or a build a spell-effect that behaves similarly with more powerful hit dice. You might even price it as giving over a magic item that functions like that.
Very interesting.
In any event, good luck. :)
I would say you could ask something on the order of what a gate spell would cost, maybe a little more since the pit fiend has to obey, too.
I'm with everyone else though, to say that is "playing with fire" is like saying "there's some water in the ocean." If I were GM, I could imagine an entire campaign of horror that I (ahem…I mean the pit fiend) would unleash upon that PC; first, for even possessing the name; second, for being so stupid and reckless as to spread it, for money or otherwise.
I imagine what I would do if I were one of the most powerful forces for evil in all of the Nine Hells and someone had "stolen" something so dearly, desperately precious to me and I shudder. And I'm a generally GOOD guy. Imagine what a genuinely, irredeemably, eternally E-V-I-L entity of enormous power is imagining!! Dead meat, man. That's game over.
I would say you could ask something on the order of what a gate spell would cost, maybe a little more since the pit fiend has to obey, too.
I'm with everyone else though, to say that is "playing with fire" is like saying "there's some water in the ocean." If I were GM, I could imagine an entire campaign of horror that I (ahem…I mean the pit fiend) would unleash upon that PC; first, for even possessing the name; second, for being so stupid and reckless as to spread it, for money or otherwise.
I imagine what I would do if I were one of the most powerful forces for evil in all of the Nine Hells and someone had "stolen" something so dearly, desperately precious to me and I shudder. And I'm a generally GOOD guy. Imagine what a genuinely, irredeemably, eternally E-V-I-L entity of enormous power is imagining!! Dead meat, man. That's game over.
I'm thinking about donalt trump
When you owe the bank 1,000,000 your in trouble.
When you owe the bank 100,000,000 the bank is in trouble.....
If only you know the fiends true name you are in trouble.
When ever moe, larry, curly, tom, etc know your name, you are in trouble.
The pit fiend would be ill-advised to come kick his @$$, because he'll still remember its true name. As a matter of fact, the entire speech from The Godfather in which Don Corleone mentions that if lightning strikes his son on Michael's way home, he'll "blame some of the people in this room" is applicable here. I'd let it be known that seeking vengeance either directly or indirectly will guarantee it a future eternity of misery—well, misery worse than being one of the damned, that is.
No pit fiend wants to deal with an industrious mortal possessing its name. It wants even less to deal with an industrious and spiteful mortal possessing its name.
In short ... he's got it by the .. err ... short hairs.
Who said the pit fiend himself would attempt it? He would likely send out his minions, and probably tell whomever his superior is. They probably wont like anyone else being able to command such a powerful being.
That's why I made the point of indicating that any attempt at vengeance would end badly for said pit fiend, at the hands of a being who knows his name ...
... and is willing to use it.
A good writer could convincingly convey either side of this, so I'm not going to continue debating it. It's all purest speculation.
Well, I think the first issue is not willingness, but capability to use it.
Heck, can you even manage to summon a pit fiend? He has 20HD, which would mean he can't be summoned with even greater planar binding.
Further, it only gives him a penalty on things. Which is powerful, but isn't especially useful in harming the Pit Fiend. Only in trying to convince him to do your will because he cannot escape.
Another angle would be for the GM to have it play out that the pit fiends name falling into the parties hands was intentional, and might be part of some bigger strategy on the part of Hell. Archdevils are sneaky like that, and that would be the angle I would go with.
Darkfire Pact (Su)
At 3rd level, a Darkfire Adept may choose one evil outsider subtype from among the following: asura, daemon, demodand, demon, devil, div, kyton, oni, qlippoth, or rakshasa. Against outsiders with that subtype, she gains a +1 profane bonus on saving throws, caster level checks, Charisma checks, and Charisma-based skill checks. When using the planar ally or planar binding spells, she can call 2 additional Hit Dice of outsiders with the chosen subtype, and those creatures gain temporary hit points equal to her class level, a +1 profane bonus on saving throws, and a +1 profane bonus to the caster level DC for effects that would banish, dismiss, or dispel them.
At 6th level and 9th level, the Darkfire Adept may select an additional evil outsider subtype for her darkfire pact. In addition, the bonus against any one of her selected subtypes (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +1.
So it would appear you are correct. And this is why I don't allow non core sources without further approval in the first place.
In any event, if you happen to be a Blackfire Adept or can find one you could use it yourself or sell/trade it to them. It still couldn't be used by characters lower than 15th level and require they be able to cast 8th level spells. Were talking about some of the best of the best.
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The pit fiend would be ill-advised to come kick his @$$, because he'll still remember its true name.
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Note: It's a LE Pit Fiend, not a Stupid Evil Balor. Thus, unlike a Demon, the Pit Fiend won't personally confront the mortal PC; it will delegate the task to a Cornugon and a handful of Erinyes. Which, by-the-by, is a nice little subplot for the Campaign. ...Nice because, instead of monsters getting tougher-and-tougher the lower (further) in the "dungeon" you go, the Devils coming after you are getting tougher and tougher -- until you're dead (or cool enough to take the Pit Fiend and his last few underlings out in combat). But probably dead.
Anyway -- go back and look at third post in this Thread, an obvious yet brilliant post from LazarX.
(But I'd still probably sell!)
And $67K sounds like a good number based on the Pit Fiend's CR.
Intelligence and tactics are not defined by alignment, but apart from that, his argument was that *whoever* went to kill the character, be it a Devil, a Tiefling Assassin, or even a crazed butterfly, he would always consider it as an agent of the Pit Fiend, and would thus make him pay for it. So, the Pit Fiend would not only do better to keep his arms off the guy's throat, but also the arms of anybody else, lest some random dude be mistaken for one of his agents.
One of many holes on that is that even if the Pit Fiend was cast into misery by the character, we're talking about one of Hell's great generals, who's in service of [insert random Infernal Duke or Archdevil]. His master won't be too pleased that a mere mortal plays with his toys, and won't hesitate to drag him in Hell for eternity, regardless of what the Pit Fiend's own fate will turn to be in the process.
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The pit fiend is in trouble. No, really. He can't go himself and tear the puny mortal a new one, that's far too dangerous. At the same time, any of his minions he could send that could do the job, would also be able to use his name once the mortal was a bloody smear. And he CERTAINLY doesn't want to tell his superiors, because that means risking appearing incompetent to them.
So what he would do is things like send normal assassins (who could not themselves use the name against him if they found it), try to have him squished in a large-scale earthquake he caused somewhere, set feeblemind glyphs for the target, have the book stolen, find some way to have something big, dumb and nasty kill the wizard, or the like.
When entire nations start toppling nearby, yes, the wizard too will realize he is in trouble. Pit fiends can do that, and rather easily too. And suddenly, signing the contract he found in his home one day, where he swears never to utter or in any other way communicate the name in return for a very large sum of gold, or be sent to Hell forever, may not look like such a bad deal after all.
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Intelligence and tactics are not defined by alignment
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Pffft.
Obviously you haven't seen any of my posts on Alignment interpretation.
Don'tcha know:
Lawful = usually smart / Chaotic = always stupid.
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Any of (the Pit Fiend's) minions he could send that could do the job would also be able to use his name once the mortal was a bloody smear. And he CERTAINLY doesn't want to tell his superiors
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Brilliant
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Thing is, if the pit fiend knows this mortal is going to sell his name... that may be it. The gloves have to come off. He has to take the guy down now, by any means necessary, because every other outcome is worse. He has to not only kill the mortal and safeguard his name, but make an example out of him.
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Wow! So many great responses, thank you everyone!
Just wanted to point out a couple things to those still interested: My character is a cleric of Nethys specializing in Summons who probably knows better than I do the best course of action here. Int 14, Wis 20, true Neutral alignment...if selling the name is unreasonable, he's not greedy enough to do it, even though I as a player am. I might want to reconsider my/his options.
My acquisition of the name was pretty legit. I found him in an ancient Thassilonian trap, his vital energy almost entirely depleted after thousands of years. Without intervention, he would have been destroyed permanently...not sent back to the Nine Hells, he would cease to exist. He was desperate. Further, I had a Paladin of Iomedae refusing to let him go and telling myself and the rest of our party to let him die there. The pit fiend, however, knew an important piece of information we needed to complete our current task. After lengthy discussion, this devil started to panic since no one but me expressed any interest in freeing him. Eventually, he made me a secret offer through telepathy...free him, and he would 1) tell me the information I needed 2) tell me his true name and 3) "owe me a favor"
After being denied the opportunity to raise an undead managerie, I decided enough was enough. In the interest of expedient problem solving, I managed to discreetly free him and save the lives of hundreds of people. My party does not know how I freed him, that I know his name, or that he "owes me a favor."
Man, that got long winded.
So. Much. Potential.
I love it.
Wow! So many great responses, thank you everyone!
Just wanted to point out a couple things to those still interested: My character is a cleric of Nethys specializing in Summons who probably knows better than I do the best course of action here. Int 14, Wis 20, true Neutral alignment...if selling the name is unreasonable, he's not greedy enough to do it, even though I as a player am. I might want to reconsider my/his options.
My acquisition of the name was pretty legit. I found him in an ancient Thassilonian trap, his vital energy almost entirely depleted after thousands of years. Without intervention, he would have been destroyed permanently...not sent back to the Nine Hells, he would cease to exist. He was desperate. Further, I had a Paladin of Iomedae refusing to let him go and telling myself and the rest of our party to let him die there. The pit fiend, however, knew an important piece of information we needed to complete our current task. After lengthy discussion, this devil started to panic since no one but me expressed any interest in freeing him. Eventually, he made me a secret offer through telepathy...free him, and he would 1) tell me the information I needed 2) tell me his true name and 3) "owe me a favor"
After being denied the opportunity to raise an undead managerie, I decided enough was enough. In the interest of expedient problem solving, I managed to discreetly free him and save the lives of hundreds of people. My party does not know how I freed him, that I know his name, or that he "owes me a favor."
Man, that got long winded.
Yeah, based on game rules there is very few people that could make use of the pit fiend's true name. You have to be a Blackfire Adpet to be capable of summoning the pit fiend, at which point you could make use of the knowledge of his true name which would give him penalties to resisting the summon. So, it is unlikely that you could find someone who would be capable of utilizing the pit fiends name. However, he does "owe you" and did provide you with information. Devils will uphold a bargain, so long as you don't ask for anything to outrageous he will likely complete the task with minimal subversion.
Devil bound...hmmm. Pretty sure my DM won't go for it, but damn that would be sweet. 3 quickened fireballs a day? Hell yes :P
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My character has recently acquired the true name of a pit fiend. I was thinking about trying to sell the name, and was wondering if there were specific rules or guidelines for this. I was thinking someone in Cheliax might be interested, but how much could I conceivably ask for it? Thoughts? Ideas?
"Acquiring" is a big word... are you sure a legal trust was not established and that your character is just simply the trustee, therefore just the guardian of the item under that trust's definition and therefore, when the trust fund wishes to liquidate its holding, will therefore organize an Auction at which time individuals OR other trustees may wish to put a bid for the item? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
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NOTE: auction can also setup their own rules, including but not limited to a carrier/delivery method (think FedEx) that "is only responsible to ship this box from A to B, without knowledge of the inside of said box"
Now, have FedEx sell box to FedEx2, FedEx3, ..., FedEx(n), and I dare you to find a lawful evil denizen of the outer planes able to track ownership (i.e. each carrier has no knowledge of the item and therefore cannot be interrogated, and they have not actually touched the item, perhaps even handled by servants of the carrier at the end of long sticks or via mage hand, and dropped into an extradimensional portable hole / bag of holding...
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What if the individual to whom the character sold the pit fiend's true name IS the pit fiend in question in disguise...?
I mean, wouldn't the pit fiend want to reclaim its true name first & then deal with those involved with the sale of it?
The character is going to have to be VERY careful to whom s/he sells that name - at least, if I was the GM... <hehe>
Carry on!
--C.