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I'm still trying to figure out how Swashbuckler can be considered a Gunslinger alternate when they don't even get proficiency in any firearms. But then; this is the only one of the advanced classes that I see no use for. There are far better ways to make a good swashbuckler than take levels in Swashbuckler. Just the basic Rogue is pretty damned good at it. Take four levels of Fighter with your Rogue and you should be able to swash your buckle to your heart's content and you don't have to go through the annoyance of tracking Grit/Panache points. As such I would think that a Figher-Rogue combination would be better Alternates for this concept.
Grit. The premise of this class is a melee character that uses Grit points. Compare panache to grit and you'll see how it works.
As for fighter/rogue being a good swashbuckler... I respectfully disagree. I've seen people try it, and I've never seen it be good.
I just ran for a competently played level 1 swashbuckler in PFS. He played it well, but he was fairly pathetic due to his inability to do any damage relative to virtually anyone else in the party. I think the level 1 barb did more damage in one round than he did all scenario.Despite the fact that I'm probably one of the main people saying that we need to be VERY careful about mid-to-high-level swashbucklers' combat prowess, I am in complete agreement that the class starts pretty slow off the gate, and unlike dervish magus, it can't just pretend it's a wizard for a little while either. It's a problem that the swashbuckler shares with several other classes and archetypes (zen archer is a good example, since they probably want 13 Dex and no more, but they don't use Wis to hit until level 3), but it will be tough to remedy it without making the class very dippable. There may not be a good solution, but I'm interested in thinking one up. Have any ideas?
The swashbuckler damage bonus doesn't counter the weak combat style until quite a few levels into the class. As is, Dervish Dance could come online at level 3. So giving the class a damage bonus fairly soon wouldn't make things out of whack.
I think it could be fun to have a level 1 or 2 panache power that gives a damage boost against an opponent if the swashbuckler is missed by them previously in the round. It could easily mirror two handed power attack for that matter while giving some nice flavor. Call it "Dashing Retort" or something.
Or you could make it a defender sort of thing and give the enemy who missed a -2 to hit other party members until they hit the swashbuckler. Both feel like a swashbuckler thing.
I'm still trying to figure out how Swashbuckler can be considered a Gunslinger alternate when they don't even get proficiency in any firearms. But then; this is the only one of the advanced classes that I see no use for. There are far better ways to make a good swashbuckler than take levels in Swashbuckler. Just the basic Rogue is pretty damned good at it. Take four levels of Fighter with your Rogue and you should be able to swash your buckle to your heart's content and you don't have to go through the annoyance of tracking Grit/Panache points. As such I would think that a Figher-Rogue combination would be better Alternates for this concept.
Guns are not 'standard' in the game, but the Advanced Class Guide will have an archetype that gives guns to the Swashbuckler. The Design Team knew that from the very beginning, so those who want guns, can have guns.
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Taking dex to damage via a different route; if i take Slashing Grace than a one handed slasher becomes useable with Swashbuckler's Finese... which counts as Weapon Finese... which means the weapon is useable with Weapon Finese (for that swashbuckler anyways) so now i can get an Agile Katana RAW?
IMO yes, but I would argue that it only works that way in the hands of someone trained via that feat to use it.
It seems that this class is the most chaotic of the 10, in that we are seeing vastly different results from everyone. We've seen a swashbuckler solo an encounter 8 CRs and 6 MRs higher than it.
I missed that it seems, have a link?
We've seen that the old version can actually achieve a damage output similar or even surpassing the most optimized CRB two-handed fighter, which is basically all the fighter can do.
No. First off, you are really selling fighters short with that. They are defined by their versatility in all things martial. Feat every level, breaking normal armor restrictions wide open, able to pump a constant bonus to their favorite type of weapon, and whatever else they might want to pull out now and then getting bonuses in its wake, along with the ability to reliably pass a fort save, which is the #1 issue here.
Past that, when you say they "do more damage" you mean they do marginally more damage, at levels 16-20, on a full attack, against targets vulnerable to piercing damage and sneak attacks, from a swashbuckler with the same str, using power attack, at melee range, completely repressing all their other class abilities to do so, and assuming that in no given round they roll more than one crit, and without factoring in the fighter's extra 6 feats.
Change any of those assumptions and the fighter's back in the lead, despite actually being significantly more versatile of a class.
We've seen where Swashbucklers feel like they can't spend their panache due to the abilities that function so long as you have 1 panache being really good and useful.
I haven't seen that in testing, or seen anyone saying that. Panache is constantly recharging, so you spend it as fast as you can. The problem is you can only spend one point in a given round because everything there is to spend it on takes your swift action, and for a huge span of levels, the only ability worth the cost* does nothing but transfer the doubled damage from the crit that gave you the point to your fist attack of the next round (assuming it hits). Assuming you fight with a one-handed style.
* With this revision to opportune parry and riposte, that's now a viable option too. It's riskier than just essentially double-confirming your crit you now have a fourth attack roll that has to connect against a very random number (can be impossible or stupidly easy depending what you're fighting), but you add all your non-precision damage an extra time, and the extra attack here is another chance to crit and let you do it again next round, AND you're canceling a hit.
This is kind of an interesting choice now for the open-hand swashbuckler, but you kinda have to be an idiot to play one because of it. Go with two weapon fighting instead. You crit significantly more often, even if you use two 19-20 range weapons (so you can fully benefit from piranha strike if so inclined), do full damage on all those crits, don't have any panache sync keeping you from parrying every time you got a panache the previous round. And then of course, being a first level ability that doesn't scale off swashbuckler levels at all, anyone can grab it with a single level dip, and exactly the same panache pool to power it with too if they really wanted. There are issues here.
As you can see in the post you quoted, I have never even come particularly close to my carrying limit, since I don't wear armor. And if I ever came close, I have a wand of ant haul. Haven't used a charge yet, but I have one, and with triple capacity, I can carry quite a bit.
I'll put it another way. In his 12+ scenarios so far, even some 5-9s, I have never reached a point where I was limited by the fact that I would have liked to carry more, not even enough to spend a charge of my wand. This was...unexpected. I thought you would be right when I theorycrafted it, which is why I bought the wand. But playtest showed I was wrong and didn't need the wand.
No shadows in any of those scenarios, and even if there were, my full AC applied to their attacks because I used mage armor as my armor. Shadow with a +4 inc touch needs a natural 20 to hit my touch AC, so the Str magus is in more danger from it.
Anyway, magus specifics are irrelevant to the swash. Shall we take this to another thread guys?
Actually, this is extremely relevant. This entire book came about because the devs really like how magi worked out, and wanted to do more along the same lines. More significantly, you're beating this drum about being able to totally dump str and crank dex based on playing a magus and taking advantage of their spellcasting to mitigate all the problems that come from having a lower str. It is very handy to see examples of a class nobody's calling broken that makes use of the sort of ability everyone's saying swashbucklers need to have, and not even having to deal with the downsides swashbucklers using it would have to deal with.
Actually, this is extremely relevant. This entire book came about because the devs really like how magi worked out, and wanted to do more along the same lines. More significantly, you're beating this drum about being able to totally dump str and crank dex based on playing a magus and taking advantage of their spellcasting to mitigate all the problems that come from having a lower str. It is very handy to see examples of a class nobody's calling broken that makes use of the sort of ability everyone's saying swashbucklers need to have, and not even having to deal with the downsides swashbucklers using it would have to deal with.
I'm not calling the magus broken personally, but I will say that in lots of PFS in different places, I have probably heard magus called broken the fourth most out of any base class, after Summoner, Gunslinger, and Witch. It may be 5th if I'm forgetting one, but I don't think I am at the moment.
I'm still trying to figure out how Swashbuckler can be considered a Gunslinger alternate when they don't even get proficiency in any firearms. But then; this is the only one of the advanced classes that I see no use for. There are far better ways to make a good swashbuckler than take levels in Swashbuckler. Just the basic Rogue is pretty damned good at it. Take four levels of Fighter with your Rogue and you should be able to swash your buckle to your heart's content and you don't have to go through the annoyance of tracking Grit/Panache points. As such I would think that a Figher-Rogue combination would be better Alternates for this concept.
The ENTIRE structure of the class is based off the Gunslinger. Everything from the panache progression mirroring a gunslinger's grit to when the class receives bonus feats to the Swashbuckler Weapon Training ability. In terms of its set-up, the class oozes the gunslinger as much as this thread oozes pointless conversations about Dex to Damage that have nothing to do with the actual swashbuckler class.
Taking dex to damage via a different route; if i take Slashing Grace than a one handed slasher becomes useable with Swashbuckler's Finese... which counts as Weapon Finese... which means the weapon is useable with Weapon Finese (for that swashbuckler anyways) so now i can get an Agile Katana RAW?
Slashing Grace only applies to feats and class abilities, of which the Agile Property is neither. Now, if you were a MYTHIC swashbuckler with Slashing Grace, then Mythic Weapon Finesse would apply to it.
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Since the DEX to DMG argument is not likely to resolved, I think the best option is to push for CHA to DMG instead. That concept also fits with the swashbuckler; their sheer force of presence unnerves their enemy, thus allowing the swashbuckler to make an opportune and damaging strikes.
It's not about the damage, it's about pre-empting Agile / Dervish Dance because in practice, many Swashbucklers will have it. Sure they're not core, but that's not stopping anyone from taking them.
Remember what I said back on Page 3: If the developers want the Swashbuckler's damage to be X, and they reckon without Dex to Damage, then many Swashbucklers in practice will end up with X+Dex. It's that simple.
I do want Swashbucklers to have some choice of combat style, and as long as Dervish Dance Scimitar is superior there is no real choice. And there is no real substitute for the bonus it provides. That's why Dex to Damage as a class feature is the best solution to this whole problem. Cut Precise Strike damage if necessary to keep the Swashbuckler in line with other full BAB melee.
I hate having to keep pounding on this when there are other pressing problems such as poor saves, Swift Action bottleneck, and underwhelming high level deeds.
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So with the class as-is with the revision:
Swashbuckler's Finesse is almost perfect as written. I want CHA to count as INT for purposes of qualifying for all combat feats, not just combat expertise. Even if it just counted for feats in general I don't think it would be too broken outside of some paladin multiclassing cheese to get CHA to everything.
Slashing Grace is amazing in that it allows you to use your slashing weapon with Weapon Finesse, regardless of what it is. It only works that way for swashbucklers which I see as a good thing, and I do think this was a good move for making the class have something unique to itself. Cutlass, Scimitar, longsword, bastard sword, katana, whatever is looking like a viable option for mr. Swashbuckler.
Charmed Life is garbage as written. Wasting actions on a save that you may not need it on is not that great of an ability. Have it be always on, or have it tied to Panache as one of those "as long as you have at least one panache point" kind of things. Have it apply to all saves, and do not let it stack with Divine Grace.
Precise Strike I really feel needs to be revised. Dex to damage has had a case made for it, and as much as I would love to see it, I at least want to not have to keep it a separate figure in my math when it comes to calculating damage every time I roll a critical threat which should be often considering how much the class relies on landing crits to make its class features work.
Also, why does my main source of damage not work on crits which is something the build so desperately tries to make happen so wearily often? Not to mention being a non magical melee class, damage is what this class will really need in order to even get played or else we will see it become another rogue. There is a discrepancy in logic here me thinks.
I do like that this class does a lot as far as theme goes. It combines aspects of the Gunslinger (deeds + grit/panache) with the combat of a fighter type (melee, non firearm weapons), while taking a prestige class (Duelist) and translating it into a base class which is what was done with the Magus (whom this entire book's concept was advertised as based off) with regards to the Eldritch Knight, and manages to be a unique class on its own.
It seems that this class is the most chaotic of the 10, in that we are seeing vastly different results from everyone. We've seen a swashbuckler solo an encounter 8 CRs and 6 MRs higher than it.I missed that it seems, have a link?
Rogue Eidolon did a bunch of high-level playtests:
The first is the Mythic one.
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I'm not calling the magus broken personally, but I will say that in lots of PFS in different places, I have probably heard magus called broken the fourth most out of any base class, after Summoner, Gunslinger, and Witch. It may be 5th if I'm forgetting one, but I don't think I am at the moment.If magus is the 4th most broken out of 8 base classes total, it sounds like it's right where it needs to be.
8 base classes and 11 core classes and 3 alternate classes.
But I don't think much of the "broken" is ascribed to Dex-To-Damage. I think a lot of it is: "Maximized empowered shocking grasp crit on 15-20"
Actually, this is extremely relevant. This entire book came about because the devs really like how magi worked out, and wanted to do more along the same lines. More significantly, you're beating this drum about being able to totally dump str and crank dex based on playing a magus and taking advantage of their spellcasting to mitigate all the problems that come from having a lower str. It is very handy to see examples of a class nobody's calling broken that makes use of the sort of ability everyone's saying swashbucklers need to have, and not even having to deal with the downsides swashbucklers using it would have to deal with.I'm not calling the magus broken personally, but I will say that in lots of PFS in different places, I have probably heard magus called broken the fourth most out of any base class, after Summoner, Gunslinger, and Witch. It may be 5th if I'm forgetting one, but I don't think I am at the moment.
Broken in the sense of being OP, I've heard it's more Gunslinger, Summoner, Alchemist, Witch then Magus.
Gunslinger just deals huge amounts of raw damage.
Summoner. Enough said.
Alchemist can deal great damage and lock down enemies with his bombs, or go full rage beast and give Barbarians runs for their money while still being magical.
Witch can just destroy encounters with debuffs and sleep.
Magus is tied with the Alchemist for being the ultimate Nova class. His brokenness come more from critting Shocking Grasp/Chill Touch. Then he's got the partial-wizard versatility.
Personally, I wish all classes were as balanced as the Bard and Inquisitor are.
I'm not calling the magus broken personally, but I will say that in lots of PFS in different places, I have probably heard magus called broken the fourth most out of any base class, after Summoner, Gunslinger, and Witch. It may be 5th if I'm forgetting one, but I don't think I am at the moment.If magus is the 4th most broken out of 8 base classes total, it sounds like it's right where it needs to be.8 base classes and 11 core classes and 3 alternate classes.
But I don't think much of the "broken" is ascribed to Dex-To-Damage. I think a lot of it is: "Maximized empowered shocking grasp crit on 15-20"
Oh I agree, it's a composite, to be sure, and those spellstrike crits are a big part, but it's worth noting that magus is considered above the curve as a class due to action economy and nova potential, contrary to what he was saying.
Panache should be Cha bonus + Dex bonus.
And you should be able to make as many AoOs per round equal to your Panache, and make as many swift or immediate actions per round equal to your Panache.
Well, speaking of duelists and improvements (and I'm sure this was suggested in the previous thread), why not put in something like the Duelist PrC's Canny Defence ability?
Canny Defense (Ex)
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
Oh look, there's a precedence for having an alternate stat that scales with level. Why not:
+Charisma to Saves for +1 every 2 levels.
There, no dipping, and no underwhelming immediate-action-to-use ability.
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The problem is that much of the damage is back-loaded, but as you say, if you front-load the class it becomes an immediate dip class. The best I've been able to come up with is moving Precise Strike to level 1, provide X bonus damage at first level and then stagger the extra damage to be every Y levels. Alternatively, grant a stat other than Strength to damage rolls at level one and cut the Precise Strike bonus in half.I just ran for a competently played level 1 swashbuckler in PFS. He played it well, but he was fairly pathetic due to his inability to do any damage relative to virtually anyone else in the party. I think the level 1 barb did more damage in one round than he did all scenario.Despite the fact that I'm probably one of the main people saying that we need to be VERY careful about mid-to-high-level swashbucklers' combat prowess, I am in complete agreement that the class starts pretty slow off the gate, and unlike dervish magus, it can't just pretend it's a wizard for a little while either. It's a problem that the swashbuckler shares with several other classes and archetypes (zen archer is a good example, since they probably want 13 Dex and no more, but they don't use Wis to hit until level 3), but it will be tough to remedy it without making the class very dippable. There may not be a good solution, but I'm interested in thinking one up. Have any ideas?
Hmm. Another thought was a Precise Strike that starts at level 1 and replaces your Str bonus to damage (you can choose which to use), but multiplies on a critical hit. That's still only 1d6+1 at level 1 though, which is pretty crummy against anything but an extremely mooky mook. What if we went with your idea and started with "X" instead of 1. Say X=3. Replacing your Str bonus (and thus also your Dex bonus if you try to do Dervish Dance or agile) for 3 will still make it a terrible dip. But adding 2+level to damage that multiplies on a crit instead of adding a stat could be viable. The multiplying on a crit part is actually an enormous gain from the current version once you start getting 15-20 crits.
Let's compare this version at levels 1, 5, and 10. At level 1 you get +3 to damage, which is probably higher than you would have had if you were a Dex-buckler (since its too low to have agile or Dervish) and less than a Str-buckler.
At level 5, you have +7 to damage that multiplies on a crit. The current buckler would have +5 to damage that doesn't multiply on a crit and also perhaps +4 or +5 to damage from ability score if they went Str or got Dex to damage and +1 or +2 from ability score otherwise. The proposal is clearly slightly weaker in damage than the Str-buckler or the Dex-to-damage-buckler and strictly stronger than the Dex-based-but-no-Dex-to-damage-buckler.
At level 10, you have +12 to damage that multiplies on a crit. The Str or Dex-to-damage buckler has +10 to damage that doesn't multiply and probably +6 to damage from stat, whereas the Dex-buckler has +1 or +2 from stat. Due to the prevalence of crits, the proposal is getting close behind the Str-buckler and Dex-to-damage-buckler in damage while conitnuing to blow the Dex-based-but-no-Dex-to-damage-buckler out of the water.
This is looking good so far.
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I apologize if I came of rude earlier. I just have read how much the developers feel that dex to damage was almost too powerful, but I do not think that by repeating that you want it or think you need it will change that .
Actually, the developers haven't said a single thing one way or another on that particular issue, as regards this class. There's just a few people loudly insisting otherwise and pulling partial quotes from unrelated conversations.
It really is a distant third in terms of what needs to be addressed though.
In one of those instances, a single attack was calling for two fort saves, which helps show how Charmed Life is never going to cut it there.
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I completely disagree with the idea that STR is the better build. Even before the Swashbuckler, I have found DEX based fighters to be extremely effective. The SB just makes it even more effective. I would go into the Aldori Swordlord PrC as soon as possible (6th level) and go against any STR build. BY 10th level, you completely neuter any Barbarian. As far as feat taxes, you more than make up for it by getting Weapon Finesse at 1st level and Improved Crit at 5th level. I do agree with the idea that they need to have a good Fort save though, otherwise the class is fine.
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With so much to analyse, I don't have time to read all the threads but here is my feedback. Please, next time, consider releasing material in smaller chunks like you did with the APG.
We should have the choice to pick a slashing or piercing style at level one and use the feat if we want to use both styles. Isn't the swashbuckler suppose to get us away from the feat tax of weapon finesse and dervish dance? Why hit slashers with a feat tax now? The only possible problem I can see with this is that a dagger with both p/s damage may not work as a thrown weapon well with precise strike as we would expect that style of attack to be piercing only. Maybe let the slashers use throwing axes in place?
The elven curve blade is screaming for inclusion. A weapon that can use weapon finesse and comes from a race with a dexterity bonus.
You should consider any weapon that can use weapon finesse. This may actually lead some people to once again use the spiked chain. No PC has used that weapon since you took reach away from it.
If need be, make a feat for them. Are you really afraid of the 14 strength PCs getting an extra point of damage for two handed weapon usage? That would mean no damage from an off hand attack. Nor a shield bonus. Most swashbucklers will only have a 12/13 strenght anyway. By the time they can afford boosting strength to 18(if ever since dex/cha is their concern), the extra 2 damage will be negligible, you will rarely, if ever see swashbucklers pumping their strength into the 20's.
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I like the way we can add charisma a few times a day but two questions on that front. Are there going to be some way to increase that via feats? And secondly I was wondering if there are plans or thoughts to change that action to a free action. Soo many abilities of the swashbuckler use immediate actions or swift actions it really leaves us starved imho
Emphasis mine. I'm noticing that a lot of the swashbuckler's abilities either eat a Swift or an Immediate Action, which is going to really limit what they get to do. In particular, having their save-ability on the same action as Riposte means that you're going to have a lot of situations where you regret using Riposte because you get called to make a crucial save before your next turn comes up. This in turn may result in players just not using Riposte in a lot of situations. Forcing decisions on players is a good thing, but making them leery to use one of their better, central abilities, because it will leave them defenseless in a way strikes me as poor design, and is not a useful decision to be forcing.
Let's put it this way:
Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.
(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)
Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?
No.
What more is there to say?
None of them are core and that is the big problem, Big with a capital B.
Let's put it this way:
Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.
(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)
Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?
No.
What more is there to say?
None of them are core and that is the big problem, Big with a capital B.
Doesn't matter if it's not core. It's still widespread, including in PFS, refer to my previous posts.
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Doesn't matter if it's not core. It's still widespread, including in PFS, refer to my previous posts.Let's put it this way:
Dex to damage ALREADY EXISTS in the game.
(Dervish Dance. Agile enchantment. The second isn't core, but is certainly in PFS, and a lot of people play PFS)
Are the classes that use Dex to Damage broken/overrunning the game?
No.
What more is there to say?
None of them are core and that is the big problem, Big with a capital B.
Sure it matters, because at some table the fact that they are not core does stop them from taking it.
Also, it isn’t really fair that those people that only get the Core book and then use the PRD won’t know there is such stuff as Dervish Dance or Agile enchantment.
@The Devs. If you don’t want people to dump strength why not create a feat similar to Dervish Dance but add a 13 strength to the prerec? Or add Power attack, or any other feat that requires 13 strength, to the prereq.
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At a large proportion of tables, including those of PFS, they take it. And anyone with access to the PRD has access to the SRD.
The entire point of what I'm saying is that whether they decide to balance around the non-core feat or not, a large proportion of people will have a Swashbuckler with either too much damage or too little. Therefore, build it into the class so it stops being an issue.
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Hmm, well Parry and Riposte is now significantly better at avoiding incoming damage in two specific and important ways--lower penalties for big opponents and the ability to save your AoOs and make the parry after you know what the enemy rolled.
Er...I don't know what your download wrote, but:-
The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature’s attack is announced, but before that attack roll is made.
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The entire point of what I'm saying is that whether they decide to balance around the non-core feat or not, a large proportion of people will have a Swashbuckler with either too much damage or too little. Therefore, build it into the class so it stops being an issue.
good point
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Would the Swashbuckler's Finesse which allows us to use cha for qualifying for combat expertise instead of int, also allow us to take the improved maneuvers feats ?
As it doesn't specify it does, some PFS GM's might not allow the swashbuckler to go into those without first getting the 13 int.
I assume that's the intent, but the current wording doesn't actually allow it.
Firstly, feel free to remove this post if it is thought to be unconstructive:
Now just to say that I am genuinely disapointed that this class can't fully make use of Dex. I understand that you dont want strength to be dumpable, but at the same time there are loads of other classes where other stats are dumped, and additionally some good suggestions have been posted on how to avoid Str dumps (penalizing negative strengths for swashbucklers, or having Dex to damage be a feat with a min 12 str score).
Another problem might be that you see Strength as having four primary uses (Melee atk, Melee Damage, Carry strength and Strength checks), but if you allowed Dex to be used for melee atack and damage it would be used for 5 uses (Melee atk, Melee dmg, Ranged atk, Ac, and Reflex). One suggestion might be for the swashbuckler to (as part of their class) be hampered in their use of ranged weapons (flavourfully they have always focused on the up close and personal melee, and unlike the fighter they didnt train in other fighting techniques) so have them able to use Dex for Melee attacks damage, but to balance that they no longer get a Dex bonus to attack with ranged weapons. This would also make this class less appealing for other classes to dip into. ("I could dip into swashbuckler, but I would permently be handicapped in my use of ranged weapons").
Also just to add, it might be a stupid reason, but I think that why this irks me (personally) so much is that for all of us who grew up as weedy little kids we always liked the fantasy of the quick fighter who was too fast for the heavy brute, but then when we come to this game and make our high dex fantasy character we realise that we are a big joke to any character that chose a strength build.
I'm not saying Dex should be a free alternative, but it just seems like flavourfully there should be a lot of precedence for the character who trains to make their Dex make up for their Str (ie feat tax the ability so its not unbalanced), and mechanics wise as others have pointed out the Dervish Dance and Agile have not ruined games before (leave the magus to a different discussion).
Again if this is not thought to be constructive please do remove it.
Thanks for all the new classes regardless.
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Sorry, I wish I could love this class.
On a closer reading, the revised swashie lost it's best abilities (pommel strike and targeted strike) for improved weapon finesse and some rules clarifications. It still waves tissue paper as armor and does less damage than other meleeists.
Since there already is at least one way to do this (duelist), the swashbuckler seems to have little point at the moment - it is sort of the "duelist that couldn't".
Superior Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with at least 1 panache point can spend a standard action to purposely miss a creature that she could normally hit with a light or one-handed weapon melee attack. When she does, that creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of her next turn.Is this decided before or after rolling for to-hit? That is, does the attack actually need to hit, or is it enough that it has the (possibly remote) ability to hit on a very good die roll.
No worries about the above, as a standard action this is too situational to use except when ganging up on creatures of such Dexterity they cannot be hit - like a duelist.
Not having a stat contribute to damage at all (or having to choose between +stat or Precise Strike) is a horrible thing to suggest.
Your own post shows it's worse than stat-to-damage+precise strike currently at low levels, which is what you say you want to see improved without putting the higher levels overboard.
And you make your melee'er virtually unbuffable.
Magic items to improve stats? Buff spells? Unless your 'optional' damage stat is high anyway, you're not going to get close to the full (any?) benefit from those.
Fortunately, I can't see that one being seriously considered.
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Hmm, well Parry and Riposte is now significantly better at avoiding incoming damage in two specific and important ways--lower penalties for big opponents and the ability to save your AoOs and make the parry after you know what the enemy rolled.Er...I don't know what your download wrote, but:-
The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature’s attack is announced, but before that attack roll is made.
Aha, you're right! They changed the order of where that line lives, and I missed it somehow on my last read. Well then, there's still lower penalties, but the last one is not the case.
The entire point of what I'm saying is that whether they decide to balance around the non-core feat or not, a large proportion of people will have a Swashbuckler with either too much damage or too little. Therefore, build it into the class so it stops being an issue.
This is the biggest advantage of the "replacing damage stat" proposal. It allows the too-much-or-too-little situation not to happen without introducing Dex-to-damage in the core line pre-mythic.
Assuming a stat of 18 (and putting all your stat increases from levels into that stat).
Precise Strike at Lvl+2, double on a crit, is straight-up lower damage, on regular hits and crits, than the current stat+precise strike, until 5th level.
Precise Strike at Lvl+2, double on a crit, will never do better non-crit damage than the current stat+precise strike.
Precise Strike at Lvl+2, double on a crit, pulls ahead of the current stat+precise strike on crit damage at lvl 5. 1pt ahead at 5th, 4pts ahead at 10th, 9pts ahead at 15th, and 12pts ahead at 20th. (The difference on non-crit damage is -2, -3, -3, -4 at those levels)
Going to throw some WBL gear and buff spells at these numbers and see how they look then.
Assuming a stat of 18.
Precise Strike at Lvl+2, double on a crit, is straight-up lower damage, on regular hits and crits, than the current stat+precise strike, until 5th level.
Precise Strike at Lvl+2, double on a crit, will never do better non-crit damage than the current stat+precise strike.
Precise Strike at Lvl+2, double on a crit, pulls ahead of the current stat+precise strike on crit damage at lvl 5. 1pt ahead at 5th, 4pts ahead at 10th, 9pts ahead at 15th, and 12pts ahead at 20th.Going to throw some WBL gear and buff spells at these numbers and see how they look then.
Remember before you start--the idea is to be a good enough option that you can play a Dex-based swashbuckler without Dex to damage, so it needs to be uniformly better than a Dex-based buckler who adds Str to damage and worse than a Dex-based buckler with Dex to damage (but close behind).
Since a Dex-based buckler will not likely have more than 14 Strength for a very long time, I think Lvl+2 doubling on a crit is definitely better than a Dex-based buckler who uses Str-to-damage and it doesn't need showing.
For the agile-user, I haven't done all the math, but I would be ecstatic if it turned out that someone using this proposal was behind by just enough to account for the +1 equivalent expenditure on agile of the Dex-to-damage buckler. Remember that you can't even afford agile until level 7 without spending more than half your gold on one item, although it's close at level 6, so I'd say fair to take it then.
I think this class has too much going on. Charmed Life should be a Deed, each Nimble should be one level sooner, and DEX to damage should replace precise strike as a Deed.
Also @ DEX to damage isn't core, Gunslingers. Ultimate Combat is part of the core line, and if Advanced Class Guide is more of a core book than Ultimate Combat, then I don't know what to tell you.
Also this class needs a good Fort Save, and it really should just be an alternate class of the Gunslinger and not Fighter, unless you specifically plan to have it be capable of taking fighter only feats in the final release.
Things would go much smoother imo if the class just mirror the Gunslinger completely.
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I think this class has too much going on. Charmed Life should be a Deed, each Nimble should be one level sooner, and DEX to damage should replace precise strike as a Deed.
Also @ DEX to damage isn't core, Gunslingers. Ultimate Combat is part of the core line, and if Advanced Class Guide is more of a core book than Ultimate Combat, then I don't know what to tell you.
Also this class needs a good Fort Save, and it really should just be an alternate class of the Gunslinger and not Fighter, unless you specifically plan to have it be capable of taking fighter only feats in the final release.
Things would go much smoother imo if the class just mirror the Gunslinger completely.
The simplest and most effective solution to the save problem has always been a good Fortitude progression and straight up Charisma to Will. Add the caveat that it doesn't stack with Divine Grace.
Really we might as well just add that, otherwise a lot of people are going to dip Paladin in order to get a real improvement to saves. Charmed Life makes a poor band-aid. It has limited uses per day, it's yet another ability on the Swift Action Bottleneck, and yet another ability that adds a bonus to a roll before you know what the roll is. So most of the time, you're spending an in-demand action and one of your daily uses on an ability that will simply be wasted (either you passed the save anyway, or the bonus would not have helped you).
Remember before you start--the idea is to be a good enough option that you can play a Dex-based swashbuckler without Dex to damage, so it needs to be uniformly better than a Dex-based buckler who adds Str to damage and worse than a Dex-based buckler with Dex to damage (but close behind).
Since a Dex-based buckler will not likely have more than 14 Strength for a very long time, I think Lvl+2 doubling on a crit is definitely better than a Dex-based buckler who uses Str-to-damage and it doesn't need showing.
No.
If you want it to make a good dex-based swashbuckler without dex to damage, it needs to be better than a maxed damage ability would be, whether that's str to damage or dex to damage, otherwise all you're proposing is a convoluted damage nerf which the class doesn't need and can't live with.(As it stands, with your proposed Precise Strike revision, you're still going to be better off building for strength and grabbing a two-hander until lvl 8 anyway, and that's without counting power attack. This is a problem.)