Grace Under Fire--Swashbuckler12 / Paladin4 Playtest


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Grace, Musetouched Aasimar Oath of Vengeance Paladin of Arshea 4 / Swashbuckler 12

Grace's Basics (Full Build Details Later):

Weapon: +5 Holy Agile Phase-Locking Rapier +32/+27/+22/+17 1d6+26 damage+2d6 holy
Smiting +41/+36/+31/+26 1d6+30 damage+2d6 holy
Fire Giant form gives -2 to hit for all attacks and changes damage to d8 but subtracts 1
AC 37 (10 + 9 armor + 7 Dex + 5 enhancement to natural + 1 insight + 1 luck, +3 Nimble, +1 Dodge) +4 fighting defensively, +9 more against one target when fighting defensively, +9 when smiting
Fire Giant form gives 4 natural armor but loses 2 from size and Dex for a net gain of 2.
Saves Fort +25, Ref +30, Will +23 Immune to Fear
Fire Giant form decreases Ref to +29 and increases Fort to +27
Feats: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Celestial Obediance (Arshea), Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte, Osyluth Guile, Signature Deed (Opportune Parry), Weapon Focus (Rapier), Greater Weapon Focus (Rapier), Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse (B), Improved Critical (B)

Grace was searching through Hell for a fallen friend. Before she went there, she used scrolls of polymorph any object (to become a Fire Giant and gain the benefits of giant form 1 to protect from fire), mind blank, overland flight, and false life. Due to previous battles, Grace had used up one smite and was at 8 out of 9 Panache, and her false life was all gone.

Liebdaga was a former infernal duke demoted to a pit fiend due to past failures. He had already used his wish for the year and his summon ability for the day when he noticed Grace and decided to teach her a lesson. Using his super stealth, he sneaked up into blasphemy range and used it on the surprise round. Of course he had up unholy aura and magic circle against good as prebuffs. He thought she was immune to fire as a fire giant, so he avoided using his Quickened Spell-Like Ability to fireball, but she would have saved anyway. Now it's not clear to me whether the save at a -4 due to being extraplanar on Liebdaga's home plane is the same roll (but with the penalty) or a separate one, so I did both with the intent to give Grace the worst of both worlds. She made both saves, and the halved strength loss was 3.

Winning initative, she decided to smite and attack Liebdaga defensively, declaring him as her Osyluth Guile target, hitting BARELY on a natural 4 for a below-average 37 damage. She made the save to negate the Str damage from the aura and is immune to fear.

Liebdaga was amused by how happy Grace seemed to be about such a pathetic hit that nearly missed him, so he decided to teach her a lesson with a full attack. Thanks to Giant Form she only had 7 AoOs per round, but she still declared a parry on every attack anyway because it costs 0 panache. Her AC was 61 anyway. First Liebdaga claw was 47, and 49 parried and riposted. Second claw was 42 and 58 parried and riposted. First wing is a nat 1 and she parried and riposted. All the ripostes hit, but only the last one was a crit, so she spent 3 panache and regained 1, putting her at 6. Her hits did 38, 37, and 55, so 130 from ripostes, 167 total for the fight.

Not so funny any more, huh Liebdaga? Grace didn't roll any Natural 1s to fail the save against unholy, and he didn't roll any natural 20s to hit her (if he did, she still had Crane Wing so it would have missed anyway). Grace then activated her boots of speed to make five attacks. Rolling nat 20, 7, 18, 13, and 5, she only missed on the last attack against AC 42. Both crits confirmed. Grace's two non-crits did 40 and 39 while the crits did 54 and 59. That's 192 more, which dropped Liebdaga. Grace rolled a natural 1 on her Fort save for the last hit and took 3 more Str damage from unholy aura.

Now Liebdaga could have done some other stuff. He could have launched a power word stun, but he decided correctly that a giant would have too many hit points. He could have tried mass hold monster or trap the soul, but given Grace made the blasphemy save he figured that was a bad idea (he was right, she needed a 4 to save). If he realized she wasn't immune to fire, he could have used quickened fireball for a tiny chance that she rolled a nat 1 or meteor swarm for the same. He actually probably would have hit for small bludgeoning with the meteor swarm even. Her weapon was phase-locking so he couldn't have greater teleported, and flying away wouldn't help even if he withdrew, since she could haste and outrun him. Honestly I don't think he had a round where he would have realized he should be running anyway, so I think the phase-locking weapon didn't help her. His best move would have been to targeted greater dispel the right buffs, but even then he didn't have a sure chance to do so, the mind blank meant that even if he scouted ahead he couldn't see that being a giant was a magic aura so he might not have known to remove it (though he could have targeted her flight if he was hoping to kite her), and she brought more scrolls just in case. Still, without prior knowledge of Grace's exact power, the blasphemy opening and the full attack were very reasonable moves for the GM to do at the time.


Nice. I love these Rogue Eidolon. Hope you had fun doing it.


Analysis--if Grace had lost agile, she would have lost quite a bit of damage per hit due to the Str debuff from Liebdaga knocking out most of her gain from being a giant. She would have lost 8 per hit. At this point she wouldn't have had a +10 equivalent weapon though and could use a bane baldric on her second turn, gaining +2 to hit, +2d6 damage that doesn't multiply, and +2 damage that does. Even so, she would not have dropped Liebdaga completely before his second non-surprise turn because that extra damage would only be 40 and she lost 64. Since Grace doesn't have the ability to charge in a non-straight line right now, he probably could have moved out (provoking an AoO because she stepped adjacent to him on her turn), survived the AoO if he was extremely lucky, ducked around a corner to relieve himself of the phase-locking, and then greater teleported away the next turn. Adding the ability to charge in a non-straight line would have let Grace keep up the phase-locking pressure and end him even without agile and even if he was extremely lucky. Another choice instead of bane baldric would have been a shocking enhancement to replace the agile and then doubling Precise Strike as a swift on her second turn. I totally forgot to do that normally (but with Bane Baldric she wouldn't have the swift). The shocking + double strategy gives 40 extra damage, which is randomly exactly the same as the bane baldric, but it seems less legit to me because it involves picking exactly the right elemental enhancement to be good against devils.


Scavion wrote:
Nice. I love these Rogue Eidolon. Hope you had fun doing it.

This was extremely fun. I'm actually falling more in love with the current Swashbuckler, even though it's outperforming Fighter levels in these playtests. I do agree with everyone that Swash needs boosts at low levels though. But these high levels, the Swashbuckler is king. I was kind of shocked at how much better Rhiana was in the other thread. I thought she was already pretty min/maxed with Aldori+Master of Many Styles, and I had been watching her rapier numbers thinking she would stay steadyish, but I completely forgot how much the unarmed strikes would jump!


Analysis: Would a falchion paladin (Falchia) have just done it better?

Without Crane Style, Falchia is at a -3 to hit compared to Grace when fighting defensively to activate Osyluth Guile. No Weapon Training or Greater Focus is another -3. Form of the Giant actually gives +1 to hit +5 damage to Falchia instead of -2 to hit +0 damage, but Liebdaga's blasphemy gives a -2 to hit -3 to damage to Falchia. All told, Falchia is at a -5 to hit compared to Grace without factoring that Falchia may use Power Attack. Power Attack would make it -10 to hit compared to Grace but up damage by a ton. Without Power Attacking, Falchia outdamages Grace by 6.5 per hit, but Power Attack makes that a tremendous 21.5 more per hit.

Defensively, Falchia is at -4 to AC from not having Crane Style or Nimble, which is irrelevant. Falchia has much lower Ref and could have failed to meteor swarm if he randomly used it, which was unlikely, though she was more likely to make the blasphemy save at the -4 to avoid being banished.

Rolling in Falchia's horse, he's out of the fight due to blasphemy and at best a liability since she needs to fast-dismount (also he costs her ranks that she needs in Ride and Handle Animal). Giving Falchia a litany of righteousness on round 2, it failed to penetrate SR.

So let's use all Grace's attack rolls for both non-Power Attacking Falchia and Power Attacking Falchia.

Non-PA Falchia misses on that darned natural 4 on the first round. She also doesn't get any ripostes and misses the natural 13 on the second to last iterative. So she gets two hits that are both critical threats. The first fails to confirm due to extremely crummy roll. At this point, Grace had KOed Liebdaga and Falchia did 147 in two hits 65 on the first hit against evil outsider and 87 on the crit. That could have been 179 damage if Falchia had been luckier on ordering and had the crit that confirmed first.

PA Falchia actually lucks out and BARELY hits with that natural 18 on the first iterative, so she gets the same two hits as normal Falchia, but she doesn't confirm either of them. So damage is 37 less from losing the crit but 30 more from Power Attack, equalling out to 140 damage instead of 147. It was also pretty likely that it would have been worse for Falchia--she got pretty lucky to hit exactly on that 18.

Now Falchia is still going to kill Liebdaga if he stays to fight, for sure, with either version, but she only took him to half at this point, which gives him much more room to make his escape and plot revenge.

But importantly, the counterattack riposte chain made Grace able to significantly outdamage Falchia. Without counterattacks, as you can see, Grace lost 130 damage (still ahead of Falchia though).


But most of Falchia's to-hit penalty came from fighting defensively for Osyluth Guile. What if she hadn't? She would have lost 12 AC and been hit by a claw, the bite, one wing, and the tail for 77 damage average (of 186). She would have made her Fort save versus poison (immune to disease) and been grappled by the tail, unable to use her Greatsword. He might have even been able to take her out from there by releasing and repeating. Assuming she had somehow avoided the grapple, she could have Layed on Hands for 31.5 and smacked him up badly (she's at a -1 to hit which still causes those exact hits to miss, but she confirms the crit on the first hit), but he could have then landed a power word stun on her since she was below 150. With a roll of 2 on 1d4, he killed her easily while she was stunned.


Nice playtest, I would like to see grace full build. Without agile the damage seems to drop considerably. I don't think strength swashbuckler could keep up at this point, they face some serious MADness (because they still need some dex) and have fewer attacks of opportunity. Mithral breastplate and buckler (btw no buckler for grace?) will propably keep the AC somewhat close but both snake style and parry/riposte are fueled by AoO.

How would grace fare if precise strike was nerfed like suggested?
(1) 1/2 level to damage
(2) level to damage but no dex or str
(3) level to damage costs one panache point
(4) weapon training gives (adds/substitutes?) dex to damage + precise strike nerf
(5) panache (current/max?) to damage + precise strike nerf

How would grace fare if the parry riposte mechanic was changed?
(1) parry cost changes to an immeadiate action
(2) instead of opposed rolls parry adds a fixed amount of AC (+2/+4?)
(3) parry requires a skill roll (acrobatics/bluff?)
(4) parry requires a disarm check against cmd
(5) parry works reactively (you have to decide after the roll is made if you want to parry)

At high level parry riposte seems to work quite well. The investment is with two feats pretty high (combat reflexes, signature dead).


Yeah, in fact I messed up and the Strength paladin Falchia should have lower AC than I said (I forgot to penalize her for her lower Dexterity from switching to Strength). In truth, all choices made in the build for Grace are detailed except her equipment (and skills). Grace was swapped in for a between level 16 and 17 character and so had a little more than level 16 WBL. Grace had basically the sword, a maxed out Amulet of Natural Armor, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone, Dex belt, Cha headband, Boots of Speed, and a bunch of +2 stat ioun stones.

Azran, you have some excellent questions, and it'd be my pleasure to take a stab at them!

Grace doesn't have a buckler so she can Crane Style. She needs the hand completely free.

Precise Strike changes--
1) 1/2 level to damage but double on crit. Given Grace killed Liebdaga with a total of 8 hits 3 of which were crits and I foolishly forgot to double her Precise Strike anyway, she would lose precisely 30 damage from this change, less than half the loss of losing agile. She could still kill him on his next turn with high probability with the AoO, but he would get that turn.
2) Level to damage which doubles on a crit, no stat added (the Temeryn plan). Grace would lose 6 damage per non-crit and 12 per crit but then gain 12 per crit. That comes down to 30 damage. Holy crap, it's exactly the same! When I said I thought this one and #1 were similar, I didn't realize my math would work at higher levels. Again, she could still kill him on his next turn with high probability with the AoO, but he would get that turn.
3) I assume it's a free action? So Grace spent 3 panache and gained 4 during that fight. Beating a pit fiend actually left her with more panache than she started (she started at 8 of 9). If she had to spend 1 panache per hit, she would have needed to not use Precise Strike twice to keep herself at 1 panache at all times, so she would have only lost 24 damage. But she has abnormally high panache--I think #3 is going to be unfairly harsh for most Swashes.
4) Well we saw that removing agile lets Grace use a bane baldric on round 2 for 40 extra damage (it's also much less money, but only for 5 rounds a day, so another option would be a shocking weapon which adds 28 extra damage).
5) Current panache to damage would add 8,7,6,6,7,7,8,8 to damage. So 57 damage (1 more for each if she hadn't started down 1 panache). Max panache to damage would be 72 more damage. But Grace has abnormally high panache. Granted she never bought Extra Panache.

New parry and riposte ideas
1) I thought riposte would be the one with the immediate action? Anyway, immediate action is prohibitive, making Parry/Riposte useless for her. Grace would need a new build. She would probably go Bleed and give the Pit Fiend all 4 kinds of bleed.
2) Grace doesn't need the AC, but she also didn't need the parries. How does one determine if riposte is allowed in this system?
3) Requiring a skill roll vs a defender's static DC is always a bad idea because skill rolls can scale high fast. Like Intimidate. My Barbarian in Shattered Star didn't even get all the things he could have and he eventually never failed one of those. That said, depending on what the Pit Fiend's DC was, I'm pretty confident Grace could have been rejiggered to beat it.
4) OK in this case, Grace is not going to land her parries unless she is very lucky (note that she did get a 58 parry in there, so she would have parried once successfully with a lucky roll, Brava Grace!). Our pit friend has 57 CMD buffed with unholy aura. That's pretty high though even for CR 20. It might work out on other enemies.
5) This is an advantage, since Grace can save her parries for the last few attacks. Here she used them all up on the first three attacks because she was fishing for ripostes. If she could wait, she could tailor her parries to fit the situation. Granted it didn't matter here, but it seems useful.

Keep em coming if you have any more ideas!


Precise Strike: #1 and #2 both look good at this level. I guess #3 would have been a damage gain if it multiplied on a crit? I suppose either #4 or #5 would replace the free improved critical. But even taking -30 dmg and the loss of a bonus feat into account #5 is out.

I liked an idea that was recently discussed in the S. thread. The “balanced approach“ tries to discourage dumping of strength and dexterity. Swashbuckler finesse adds dexterity in addition to strength instead of replacing it. Weapon training adds dexterity in adddition to strength to to damage. I think this would need some balancing but can work. It's really expensive to boost 2 physical stats so most swashs would still favor dex but can still carry their armor and lift a rapier. Let's assume this replaces imroved critical.

To answer the questions about parry alternatives:
2) Works like snake style. Misses allow for riposte attempts.
3) DC would be the attack roll. I think this would be an option combined with #1. We don't want a huge gamble if we have to spend an immediate action right?
(4) Needs more testing I guess. The idea was to reward use of a thematic combat maneuver and get rid of opposed rolling.
(5) I think except for #2 all alternatives would need this to stay attractive enough.

Well I had the idea to implement something similar to come and get me as a level 11 deed. “If you could use opportune parry you can instead chose to feint leaving yourself open to attacks to prepare a devastating counterattack. The attack roll is resolved with a +4 bonus but counts as a successful parry. Using this deed expends the use of an attack of oppertunity.“

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

For curiousity's sake, how much less effective is a Swashbuckler 16 in comparison to the Paladin 4/Swashbuckler 12?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Pit fiends have natural true seeing. He could see her true form and should have opened up with Greater Dispel.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Pit fiends have natural true seeing. He could see her true form and should have opened up with Greater Dispel.

==Aelryinth

No disrespect intended, but I'm not seeing it. I think you may be thinking of the balor, either that or I'm an idiot because I just triple-checked. My idiocy is definitely possible. Also, I think it's debatable at best whether the monster ability of constant true seeing works vs mind blank (I never considered that it might work, since clearly the spell true seeing doesn't and I thought the constant ability was like having the spell up at all times), but fortunately if I'm right, there's no need to debate.


ubiquitous wrote:
For curiousity's sake, how much less effective is a Swashbuckler 16 in comparison to the Paladin 4/Swashbuckler 12?

Swashbuckler14/Paladin2 is about the same when smiting, it just wouldn't have the ability to smite more than once a day (Grace can smite 7 times a day), which is a darn shame. Swashbuckler16 has one better weapon training, some feats, and deeds, but can't make up for the paladin losses, but then again, Grace's high Charisma build (Charisma > Dexterity) would have probably changed anyway if she didn't have the Paladin levels. Honestly Grace without at least Paladin2 was banished on the surprise round.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Pit fiends have natural true seeing. He could see her true form and should have opened up with Greater Dispel.

==Aelryinth

No disrespect intended, but I'm not seeing it. I think you may be thinking of the balor, either that or I'm an idiot because I just triple-checked. My idiocy is definitely possible. Also, I think it's debatable at best whether the monster ability of constant true seeing works vs mind blank (I never considered that it might work, since clearly the spell true seeing doesn't and I thought the constant ability was like having the spell up at all times), but fortunately if I'm right, there's no need to debate.

Mind Blank is pretty all inclusive =)

ALL DIVINATIONS FAIL AGAINST MIND BLANK!

I love Mind Blank. I almost never get high enough to play with it though.


Azran wrote:

Precise Strike: #1 and #2 both look good at this level. I guess #3 would have been a damage gain if it multiplied on a crit? I suppose either #4 or #5 would replace the free improved critical. But even taking -30 dmg and the loss of a bonus feat into account #5 is out.

I liked an idea that was recently discussed in the S. thread. The “balanced approach“ tries to discourage dumping of strength and dexterity. Swashbuckler finesse adds dexterity in addition to strength instead of replacing it. Weapon training adds dexterity in adddition to strength to to damage. I think this would need some balancing but can work. It's really expensive to boost 2 physical stats so most swashs would still favor dex but can still carry their armor and lift a rapier. Let's assume this replaces imroved critical.

To answer the questions about parry alternatives:
2) Works like snake style. Misses allow for riposte attempts.
3) DC would be the attack roll. I think this would be an option combined with #1. We don't want a huge gamble if we have to spend an immediate action right?
(4) Needs more testing I guess. The idea was to reward use of a thematic combat maneuver and get rid of opposed rolling.
(5) I think except for #2 all alternatives would need this to stay attractive enough.

Well I had the idea to implement something similar to come and get me as a level 11 deed. “If you could use opportune parry you can instead chose to feint leaving yourself open to attacks to prepare a devastating counterattack. The attack roll is resolved with a +4 bonus but counts as a successful parry. Using this deed expends the use of an attack of oppertunity.“

Hmmm, the "balanced approach" actually would normally benefit Grace a lot considering she was running around in giant form with added Strength, but the blasphemy did cut her down to size in that regard.

Parry alts
2) Gotcha. I figured as much.
3) Yeah, if it's immediate this is more fair because it's at least limited. Still, it's close to an automatic success if the Swashbuckler is diligent with the skill in question. It could still work in practice, I'd need to see.
4) Yeah, I think it would work way more often on a different style of foe.
5) It's a fair possibility. Note that currently Snake Style comes before the attack roll is rolled, like the current version of parry.

Grand Lodge

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Nice. I love these Rogue Eidolon. Hope you had fun doing it.
This was extremely fun. I'm actually falling more in love with the current Swashbuckler, even though it's outperforming Fighter levels in these playtests. I do agree with everyone that Swash needs boosts at low levels though. But these high levels, the Swashbuckler is king. I was kind of shocked at how much better Rhiana was in the other thread. I thought she was already pretty min/maxed with Aldori+Master of Many Styles, and I had been watching her rapier numbers thinking she would stay steadyish, but I completely forgot how much the unarmed strikes would jump!

Where is the playtest for Rhiana? She sounds intriguing.


Here. There is a 95% chance that even if you play Kingmaker, there won't be any spoilers in the linked playtest with Rhiana. But if your GM happens to be using side material from the same sources, it might give minor info about a random side thing that is irrelevant to the AP in any appreciable way.

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Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Pit fiends have natural true seeing. He could see her true form and should have opened up with Greater Dispel.

==Aelryinth

No disrespect intended, but I'm not seeing it. I think you may be thinking of the balor, either that or I'm an idiot because I just triple-checked. My idiocy is definitely possible. Also, I think it's debatable at best whether the monster ability of constant true seeing works vs mind blank (I never considered that it might work, since clearly the spell true seeing doesn't and I thought the constant ability was like having the spell up at all times), but fortunately if I'm right, there's no need to debate.

I concur. I checked as well, and I'm not even seeing it among its cast spells.

odd the erinyes has it, and the pit fiend does not.

On the other hand, its got a +33 Sense Motive check and should have been able to rather instantly assess that this Fire Giant was not what it seemed. And the fact it could see obviously magical gear (Spellcraft +31, Percept +33) should have been an immediate warning to lead with Dispel Magic. Spellcraft would also enable it to recognize magical spells in effect.

But, all's fair in tests. Don't mind me. Pretty sure that getting an AC in the 60's was not what the devs had planned.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Pit fiends have natural true seeing. He could see her true form and should have opened up with Greater Dispel.

==Aelryinth

No disrespect intended, but I'm not seeing it. I think you may be thinking of the balor, either that or I'm an idiot because I just triple-checked. My idiocy is definitely possible. Also, I think it's debatable at best whether the monster ability of constant true seeing works vs mind blank (I never considered that it might work, since clearly the spell true seeing doesn't and I thought the constant ability was like having the spell up at all times), but fortunately if I'm right, there's no need to debate.

I concur. I checked as well, and I'm not even seeing it among its cast spells.

odd the erinyes has it, and the pit fiend does not.

On the other hand, its got a +33 Sense Motive check and should have been able to rather instantly assess that this Fire Giant was not what it seemed. And the fact it could see obviously magical gear (Spellcraft +31, Percept +33) should have been an immediate warning to lead with Dispel Magic. Spellcraft would also enable it to recognize magical spells in effect.

But, all's fair in tests. Don't mind me. Pretty sure that getting an AC in the 60's was not what the devs had planned.

==Aelryinth

I thought of that. But due to the line of "You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way." I figured the pit fiend was smart enough to realize that even if the giant thing was magical, it could be giant form I, giant form II, greater polymorph or polymorph any object, giving it at best a 1 in 4 of naming the effect. Remove any other effect or magic item and you haven't changed too much. Grace would only lose 10 AC even if you deactivated 100% of her items. Her to-hit and damage would suffer though. She's actually only in the upper 30s for AC before smiting and fighting defensively, which gives her +4 to all AC and +18 to that one target.

As for the ridiculous combinations of side material, I was doing a CRB playtest between a highly optimized fighter from the DPR Olympics suggested by Kolokotroni (who was more than strong enough to defeat the challenges in the playtest) and a swashbuckler who mimicked his build, but many people told me that they were skeptical of the results because it was CRB-only, naming several things that fighters could do after the core that would make them stronger. I agreed that such would also be valuable playtest too and said that it would be only fair to give the same to the Swash. I still think that the CRB-only playtest was valuable, which is why I did it first, but this was a good example of a different style of play and what a powerful Cha-based Swashbuckler could do that an ordinary one would never have enough Panache to do.

I think I used the hardcover rules line books + Chronicles of the Righteous + Pathfinder Society Field Guide + Cheliax Empire of Devils. Losing Field Guide loses agile weapon, and I calculated that loss above. Losing Chronicles of the Righteous gives her back a feat but forces her to wear armor (if she gets Celestial Chain, she's right back where she was though, and with more fly uses that don't require her to pull out a scroll). Losing Cheliax Empire of Devils loses 9 AC versus one target when fighting defensively, but the fiend still wouldn't have hit her with -9 AC.

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