Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.
Isn't Weapon Finesse enough of a feat tax for most characters?
A few things jump out to me about the Swashbuckler. These things I feel really define it's class as unique, so I'd like to address them.
Dodging Panache: reasonable to me. I get to use CHA for something that most other classes don't, and it's temporary not constant. It fits thematically, and technically. I love it.
Opportune Parry and Riposte: Sounds good! Great even. A way for me to get in free-attacks fits very well. Not guaranteed but nonetheless very potentially helpful. My DPS just got a boost and in addition the fact that I'm a "mobile fighter" definitely promotes the importance of abilities to negate damage from attacks.
Precise Strike: I like it. I feel it scales well, which is something I was really looking for with this class (how well it scaled into later levels).
I was disappointed to learn it didn't multiply on critical hits (melee types who use 1 weapon in 1 hand seem like they need crits to compare to their TWF or 2Handed counter parts imo).
...But then grew slightly more okay with given the option to spend panache to double it. Seemed reasonable. But then I saw you could only use this as a swift action.
...So here's my first hangup: I can't "double precise strike" when I make an opportune parry? Perhaps in initial playtesting that was OP... but thus far Precise Strike is my primary damage source. And the fact you could potentially use it on your opponents turn (something much rarer for TWF and 2handed fighters) struck me as an awesome balancing act. As well as the first real unique thing this class could bring (outside of Duelist).
I have Bonus Damage tied to my level (class loyalty, gives me a reason to stay. Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, doesn't get that.).
I have CHA giving me AC, Panache, and Charmed Life. (Excellent, I can level that at my leisure with magical items, ability point buffs etc).
DEX then will be my second stat...which I'm a little disappointed there wasn't more of. No class ability actually uses DEX. Mind you--you kind of are expected to be using it regardless. I just mean no Panache stuff utilizes your DEX mod. Just a bit disappointed at the lack of to-hit bonus or damage bonus.
So here's what it boils down to for me when I compare it:
TWF gets lots of attacks typically crit focused. Huge Damage potential.
2-handed gets very powerful attacks, and makes up for the fewer number of attacks with adding on huge (1.5 or 2x STR, and power attack) bonuses. Reliable damage.
The Swashbuckler should find their niche in opportune attacks with some clever damage. Trading some of that damage for AC and Utility is reasonable... but this is still a melee fighter class, and should have some way to make up the damage discrepancy between itself and the other fighting builds.
I'd like to see more done for increasing their Offense or their Defense. Right now you sort of get both naturally without making many choices.
I feel where they stand in terms of Defense and Damage (when compared to their Fighting class cousins) isn't exactly ideal. Our CHA bonus won't keep that Dragon from hitting us with it's +30 to attack.
Our Level in bonus damage won't do much when we're only landing 2-3 attacks at higher levels. Especially when a lot of damage at that point comes in the form of Criticals.
Just my 2gp
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tl;dr
I like the idea of "strategic, opportune, daring fighter!" The type who was dancing in and out, taking advantages of the opponent through clever maneuvers.
So, I'm more than disappointed that Precise Strike and Opportune Parry and Riposte can't be used in conjunction.
Those seem like the bread and butter of the class. I want my bread with my butter.
I'd prefer Swashbuckler Initiative as Cha to init (simple +2 is uninteresting).
I'd even be supportive of Cha to damage, if they are just going to be unreasonably stubborn on dex.How about this?
Replace Charmed Life with the following:
Confident Combatant - Add Cha as bonus to InitiativeUnwavering Confidence - Add Cha as bonus to Will saves (maybe include language for this to not stack with paladin)
Confident Daredevil - When using Acrobatics, Climb, or when running, you are not treated as being flat-footed, and add your Cha bonus to your AC and attack rolls (so, when balancing on a narrow surface, hanging from a wall or rope, mostly)
Confident Duelist - Add Cha as bonus on CMB and CMD
Overwhelming Confidence - Add Cha as bonus to confirm critical threat rolls, and as damage on critical hits before multiplier (and multiplied on crits)
Armored in Confidence - When you're caught flat-footed or flanked, you may apply your Cha bonus to your AC.
Not sure which order works best--I'd think that the bonus to Will saves should come by level 6 at the latest.
I like that. It fills in all the deadish levels on the chart, adds value to charisma, and frees up one of those 3rd level deeds (is there a reason we're married to the same count at a given level as a gunslinger?) for something more interesting... or really, it frees up a level 1 slot, because parry/riposte really does not need to be attainable with a single level dip.
Still needs a good fort save though, and something to set it apart from other classes that isn't just using different math to get the same result.
Not sure what you're referring to with these freeing up a deed at 3rd, or Parry/Riposte?
I think it could use a good Fort save as standard, but at least with Con being important to a front-line melee, it will have some investment there.
Stephen
To follow up on Prince of Knives's statement about more mobility.
this class feature is an excellent example:
Acrobatic Charge (Ex)
At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.
It is straight from the duelist from the core book. I would add only a panache cost, perhaps the ubiquitous "as long as you have one panache" cost and it is an excellent deed for mobility.
But I think a restructuring of the evasive deed is in order. The high level and all at onces is fine for the gunslinger which is ideally trying to avoid close combat. The swashbuckler on the other hand is up close and personal all the time. The deed would flow better broken up perhaps in the following manner:
Evasive (Ex): while a swashbuckler has at
least 1 panache point, she gains the benefit of the evasion(3rd),
uncanny dodge(3rd), and improved uncanny dodge(7th) rogue
class features. She uses her swashbuckler level as her
rogue level for improved uncanny dodge.
This gets the ablities out to the swashbuckler when they are helpful and remain so through out a characters career. Dodging panache is also a useful deed and it arrives at 1st. So early on you are a more defensive fighter wich is not a bad thing.
Also I must put forth that charmed life needs work. As an immediate action it is more of a cruel jest than a help. It is already limited in scope so I would recommend a revisit to change its action type. There were several good suggestions upthread for that very thing.
Though personally from playing this class so far in a S&S game I would rather have the good fort save inherent to the parent classes.
but over all I am liking this class and most of the others so thank you Stephen and the PDT for giving us something interesting to work with.
edit:spelling
For Mobility:
New Deed
At 7th level, as long as the Swashbuckler has at least 1 Panache point in his pool, the Swashbuckler can ignore difficult terrain when making a charge. During a Dramatic Charge the Swashbuckler can spend 1 Panache Point to do one of the following:
-Make an acrobatics check to move through an single enemy's space in the path of the charge with no penalty for moving more than half speed.
-Make an Acrobatics check to jump over an obstacle in the path of the charge.
-Make a single turn of up to 90 degrees along the path of the charge.
If the Swashbuckler fails any of these acrobatics checks, the Swashbuckler stops in the square where the acrobatics check was attempted and the charge fails.
Gorram Lord Malkov
This
For Mobility:New Deed
Dramatic Charge
At 7th level, as long as the Swashbuckler has at least 1 Panache point in his pool, the Swashbuckler can ignore difficult terrain when making a charge. During a Dramatic Charge the Swashbuckler can spend 1 Panache Point to do one of the following:
-Make an acrobatics check to move through an single enemy's space in the path of the charge with no penalty for moving more than half speed.
-Make an Acrobatics check to jump over an obstacle in the path of the charge.
-Make a single turn of up to 90 degrees along the path of the charge.
If the Swashbuckler fails any of these acrobatics checks, the Swashbuckler stops in the square where the acrobatics check was attempted and the charge fails.
is much smoother than what I posted. kudos
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Thanks for the update! I would be more than happy with something like:
Agile Finesse
Through training and grace, you are able to strike swiftly, much harder than someone of your physical strength should be capable of.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13+, Weapon Finesse, Profficient in weapon, Base attack bonus 4+
Benefit: Choose one weapon that you qualify for weapon finesse. When using the selected weapon, you may use your dexterity modifier on weapon damage rolls in place of your strength. You still deal half of this bonus on off handed attacks. This bonus is not increased by wielding the selected weapon in two hands.
Something like that seems awesome to me.
You guys are killing me with all these feat taxes. :(
What happened to, "I don't like feat taxes either"?
You guys are killing me with all these feat taxes. :(
What happened to, "I don't like feat taxes either"?
Weapon Finesse is already a feat tax for anyone who wants to use Dex for attack rolls and the Swashbuckler gets it for free. That ship has sailed friend. We're trying to make the best of it now. Is paying one more feat to finally get Dex based martials to par really that bad?
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[Theatre Humour] With all these deeds requiring 1 Panache point in the Swashbuckler's pool, I now understand the ending of Cyrano de Bergerac even better:
You strip from me the laurel and the rose!
Take all! Despite you there is yet one thing
I hold against you all, and when, to-night,
I enter Christ's fair courts, and, lowly bowed,
Sweep with doffed casque the heavens' threshold blue,
One thing is left, that, void of stain or smutch,
I bear away despite you.
MY PANACHE.
...So here's my first hangup: I can't "double precise strike" when I make an opportune parry? Perhaps in initial playtesting that was OP... but thus far Precise Strike is my primary damage source. And the fact you could potentially use it on your opponents turn (something much rarer for TWF and 2handed fighters) struck me as an awesome balancing act. As well as the first real unique thing this class could bring (outside of Duelist).
The extra attack is going to be better than adding your level to damage (again) almost every time. Free attacks and extra bonuses? I can see why they shied away from that. Even if you COULD do it, you would still be out of a swift action to use it the next turn anyway. So instead of only using it on your turn, you end up using it on Ripostes. Let's be fair, if Precise Strike wasn't limited by the swift action, it would be a bit ridiculous.
I have CHA giving me AC, Panache, and Charmed Life. (Excellent, I can level that at my leisure with magical items, ability point buffs etc).
That AC is only when you activate Dodging Panache, and keep in mind you cannot do it in the same turn as Charmed Life. You also cannot activate Precise Strike's double damage the turn afterwards--or use Riposte. Just a few things to keep in mind.
DEX then will be my second stat...which I'm a little disappointed there wasn't more of. No class ability actually uses DEX. Mind you--you kind of are expected to be using it regardless. I just mean no Panache stuff utilizes your DEX mod. Just a bit disappointed at the lack of to-hit bonus or damage bonus.
Well, there is Bleeding Wound, for one. That is sneakily included Dex-to-damage with Signature Deed. I think... Bleed damage and effect rules are very confusing to me in Pathfinder. I'm pretty sure you can apply this to every attack (immune to sneak attack notwithstanding), but a little clarification would be nice *cough*heyStephen*cough*
Also Deadly Stab and Stunning stab, which seem a little underwhelming, but I haven't playtested a level 19 swash to know.
Riposte. Short of mixing in style feats (and if the new dex to damage feats require an open hand we will still be seeing a lot of these) can there be an option to open it up to a free action limited by DEX or CHA mod at higher levels? The scene we all think about (Princess Bride) is a perfect example of Inigo using lunge in a choke point and making everyone want to do this.
Sadly, Lunge doesn't work after the end of your turn... also, the change was made to remove the Combat Reflexes tax required to even USE the ability. I was also against the change to an immediate action at first, but I'm coming around. The only problem I have with it is the presence of so many other immediate/swift actions. Something really needs to give--Charmed Life gets my loudest vote.
+4BAB level seems a little harsh. You can already get dervish dance at 3rd, and it's been discussed time and again how making people suffer through lacklustre levels until they can pick up the basics to make their concept work is bad juju :(
I have an inkling that if they make it a feat, they'll be wanting to kill the 'all scimitar, all the time' magus bird with the same stone, but a +4 BAB means those guys have to wait 'till 6th, which means they'll just all be Dervishes still anyway. Wasted opportunity.
tl;dr
Prereq >BAB+1 would be... unfortunate.
+4BAB level seems a little harsh. You can already get dervish dance at 3rd, and it's been discussed time and again how making people suffer through lacklustre levels until they can pick up the basics to make their concept work is bad juju :(
I have an inkling that if they make it a feat, they'll be wanting to kill the 'all scimitar, all the time' magus bird with the same stone, but a +4 BAB means those guys have to wait 'till 6th, which means they'll just all be Dervishes still anyway. Wasted opportunity.
tl;dr
Prereq >BAB+1 would be... unfortunate.
Agreed. The feat option makes it available for other classes and maybe (just maybe) a Magus who doesn't carry a scimitar will go adventuring one day. Who knows? Even a rogue may not feel so sad once in awhile.
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Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.
Okay I know it's not exactly the exact theme but I recall there being a feat in the companion/setting line that pretty much worked as a power attack only based off Dex Piranna strike I think it was called. Perhaps bring that over ito the feat section for this book when it's released?
But we get finesse for free, imp crit for free as well. All around looking good.(and soon to be dervish dance options) im ok taking a feat. Hell two if i want to use a slashing weapon.
I totally agree! Well said!
Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.Okay I know it's not exactly the exact theme but I recall there being a feat in the companion/setting line that pretty much worked as a power attack only based off Dex Piranna strike I think it was called. Perhaps bring that over ito the feat section for this book when it's released?
Piranha Strike's main problem for the Swashbuckler is the light weapon limit.
That said, str 13 for anyone wanting to use a 1-hander rather than a light isn't too onerous. You're going to need to carry stuff anyway.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's disappointing, but totally understandable. I admit that I'm mostly asking because I was hoping to try it out on some other classes. Do you expect this feat to be broadly available, or Swashbuckler only?Not entirely sure yet. Still hammering out the details. If I were a betting man I would say it it will be as open as Dervish Dance is...so other classes would be able to use it as well, but it will have more utility for the swashbuckler.
In that case, I only have one remaining question (for now):
Can I buy you a drink sometime?
Sure. But keep in mind I'm not going home with you.
I would love to see a Feat letting the Swashbuckler take a Rogue Talent from a limited list; Charmer and Honeyed Words come to mind...
Presumably the class will receive a nerf to damage to make up for that huge buff?
It's already pretty high up there damage-wise, even without that, it would seem.
Here I thought getting your full level to damage was meant to make it so you didn't need to have Dex to damage.
I agree with these sentiments. I expect the Swashbuckler to take a hit to it's Precise Strike damage to compensate for the ability to get Dexterity to damage. The result is that the Swashbuckler gets a nerf and is now shoe horned into going Dexterity based, dumping Strength, and paying a few feat taxes to do the same damage it does now... (I know everyone on these forums loves feat taxes so much...) But hey, it'll have "dex to damage" so it must be better, right?
What is wrong with the current situation Stephen?
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I do have one complaint regarding Slashing Grace, it seems a little much to require the feat multiple times for each slashing weapon. If i want to use an urumi as my main weapon and a kukri as my backup to keep with the theme, I have to take Slashing Grace twice just to do that.
I can think of two potential solutions:
Simple: Slashing Grace applies to all one-handed or light slashing weapons.
Complex: Replace slashing Grace with a variety of fencing school feats, each of which adds specific slashing weapons to the Swashbuckler's list.
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Sure. But keep in mind I'm not going home with you.That's disappointing, but totally understandable. I admit that I'm mostly asking because I was hoping to try it out on some other classes. Do you expect this feat to be broadly available, or Swashbuckler only?Not entirely sure yet. Still hammering out the details. If I were a betting man I would say it it will be as open as Dervish Dance is...so other classes would be able to use it as well, but it will have more utility for the swashbuckler.
In that case, I only have one remaining question (for now):
Can I buy you a drink sometime?
Even if it's just to play Pathfinder?
I think my girlfriend would complain about anything more than that.
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You guys are killing me with all these feat taxes. :(
What happened to, "I don't like feat taxes either"?
I think your definition of a feat tax and mine are a little different. Dex to damage right now lives in the feat design space, and in very limited ways. Opening that up to more weapons but not making it a class feature is not a tax.
Where angels fear to tread At 3rd level as long as the swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point they may charge a creature without having line of sight to it at the start of their turn.
Pardon meAt 7th level a swashbuckler may attempt to charge through allies and non combatants with a DC 15 acrobatics check. This DC increases by 2 for each ally charged through after the first, and requires a seperate check for each. They may also charge over difficult terrain.
Dashing SwordsmanAt 10th level the swashbuckler may make one turn up to 90 degrees during the charge. This increases to 2 turns at 15th level and 3 at 20th.
Any possibility of SBs getting a good Fort save?
What about a feat that replaces Wisdom with Cha for saving throw? That would open so many character possibilities, it'd be awesome!
I do have one complaint regarding Slashing Grace, it seems a little much to require the feat multiple times for each slashing weapon. If i want to use an urumi as my main weapon and a kukri as my backup to keep with the theme, I have to take Slashing Grace twice just to do that.
I can think of two potential solutions:
Simple: Slashing Grace applies to all one-handed or light slashing weapons.Complex: Replace slashing Grace with a variety of fencing school feats, each of which adds specific slashing weapons to the Swashbuckler's list.
I think just getting this Feat for one weapon is enough of an incentive. Just my opinion.
What it also does, is opens up room for things Duelist-PrC characters using weapons other than Rapier/Scimitar/Snake Style.So I know it's not optimal, as there is no Dex-to-damage option, but I was looking at creating a Vudrani-themed swashbuckler using an urumi. Am I correct in reading Slashing Grace that it will allow me to use all swashbuckler class features with the urumi?Correct, but you would need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Urumi first.
While I love the idea of Slashing Grace, I hate that its essentially aSwashbuckler-only feat that is little more than a feat tax. What's worse, it only applies to one weapon at a time. I can understand the restriction for things like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization, but Slashing Grace is not a strong option currently.
Doesn't change that the feat provides no benefit to characters without one of those abilities. 90% of the time, it is going to be nothing more than a feat tax for a character who doesn't really have that many feats to begin with. (Swashbuckler's 14-ish feats to the fighter's 21-ish.)
Plus it means you can never finesse a katana, bastard sword, or similar weapon unless you belong to one specific class. That's the part of the feat that I hate the most; anyone capable of wielding a weapon should be able to learn to finesse it. Finessable Katanas are not unique to the swashbuckler, and one could argue that the concept of the iconic swashbuckler doesn't fit into the realm of feudal Japan to begin with, yet the Finesse Katana is one of the most prevalent weapon tropes in Japanese literature and animation.
Hence, a problem.
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I just got back from playing with some friends. Man can the Swashbuckler bring the pain at later levels. My Slayer could have not shown up compared to this guy. Even the always hasted Bloodrager felt shown up.
Quick question: Do gloves of dueling work for Swashbuckler Weapon Training?
Not sure.
As it is written right now...no. I'm considering changing the wording of the class feature based on this questions but I need to do more thinking and research on the ramifications. It may be just easier to design similar magic items for the Advanced Class Guide that do work with swashbuckler weapon training.
Any possibility of SBs getting a good Fort save?
What about a feat that replaces Wisdom with Cha for saving throw? That would open so many character possibilities, it'd be awesome!
To be honest, probably not. I also don't think you will see that feat, but the book is still in development.
Making Improved Weapon Finesse available at level 1 would solve a few different problems at a stroke. Finesse characters deal worthwhile damage from the get-go. Having a feat rather than a class feature opens it up to other classes, removing the incentive to dip Swashbuckler.
And I wouldn't call it a Feat Tax. Dexterity for damage instead of Strength does provide some advantages. Those bonuses are not overpowering, certainly not as much as some people think, but they are a worthwhile use of a feat.
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I think your definition of a feat tax and mine are a little different. Dex to damage right now lives in the feat design space, and in very limited ways. Opening that up to more weapons but not making it a class feature is not a tax.You guys are killing me with all these feat taxes. :(
What happened to, "I don't like feat taxes either"?
Possibly. My definition is something along the lines of, "This feat is going to be required if you ever hope to keep up with the damage output of a combat class that just sticks to Strength, even though this class is entirely based around Dex and can't function as intended with a Str build."
This is your chance to do a class that actually works well with a one-handed weapon/empty off-hand combo, and make it not suck at killing things. Don't make it rely so heavily on extra tacked-on feats to get that job done, if thematically, the feat should have just been a class feature in the first place. :(
(That's not to say I'm against a Dex-to-damage feat, because you designers have never shown me any proof that it's as unbalanced as you are famous for claiming, but in this case it should really just be part of the class.)
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I don't think Dex-to-damage is worth a feat, let alone two, for the same reasons I don't like Dervish Dance. Why?
Imagine there were two feats that replaced Dex with Strength for your reflex saves, AC (following the same armor limitations as Dex), and Initiative. Would you take them?
I think your definition of a feat tax and mine are a little different. Dex to damage right now lives in the feat design space, and in very limited ways. Opening that up to more weapons but not making it a class feature is not a tax.
Will this new feat include the limitation of keeping your other hand free? If so, are you "keeping your other hand free" while using a buckler?
I don't think Dex-to-damage is worth a feat, let alone two, for the same reasons I don't like Dervish Dance. Why?
Imagine there were two feats that replaced Dex with Strength for your reflex saves, AC (following the same armor limitations as Dex), and Initiative. Would you take them?
Ohmygosh, every time!*
*(that I was playing a Str-based character)
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Making this a feat introduces the possibility that it could be used by other single-class builds too. I think "Deadly Finesse" is a thematic trope the Swashbuckler shares with a lot of other character classes, such as graceful martial arts master Monks, many literary and media examples of Rogue characters, and many Magi, especially the elven "Graceful Battle-mage" variety.
That's not to say I'm against a Dex-to-damage feat, because you designers have never shown me any proof that it's as unbalanced as you are famous for claiming,
I have never claimed such a thing. So watch generalizations.
Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.
I'm predicting it'll only apply to a specific weapon too; sort of like an Improved Weapon Finesse? That way it can exist without stepping on the toes of Mythic Weapon Finesse. Considering how iconic the fighting style is, Weapon Finesse NEEDS more feats that work off of it. I'd love to see Piranha Strike reprinted in this book. (Its source is an admittedly old book and it could use the rebranding.)
I think your definition of a feat tax and mine are a little different. Dex to damage right now lives in the feat design space, and in very limited ways. Opening that up to more weapons but not making it a class feature is not a tax.You guys are killing me with all these feat taxes. :(
What happened to, "I don't like feat taxes either"?
In my opinion, Dex to Damage isn't a feat tax any more than Weapon Specialization is. It is an option to add additional damage to your attacks. As long as the feat is open to any finessable weapon, I think it will be fine.
On the other hand, Slashing Grace feels more like a feat tax because it has such a narrow focus. If the feat allowed you to finesse all one-handed slashing weapons out of the door instead of relying on the Swashbuckler class to do it for you, it would be stronger.
As written, Slashing Grace has no benefit if you are not a duelist or a swashbuckler, yet it has no real reason to be limited to those characters. I would prefer a feat that allowed you to apply Weapon Finesse to all one-handed weapons in a weapon group of the character's choice in addition to the "counts as a one-handed piercing weapon" bit.
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Presumably the class will receive a nerf to damage to make up for that huge buff?
It's already pretty high up there damage-wise, even without that, it would seem.
Here I thought getting your full level to damage was meant to make it so you didn't need to have Dex to damage.I agree with these sentiments. I expect the Swashbuckler to take a hit to it's Precise Strike damage to compensate for the ability to get Dexterity to damage. The result is that the Swashbuckler gets a nerf and is now shoe horned into going Dexterity based, dumping Strength, and paying a few feat taxes to do the same damage it does now... (I know everyone on these forums loves feat taxes so much...) But hey, it'll have "dex to damage" so it must be better, right?
Presumably, Precise Strike will be tweaked to compensate so that the damage remains about the same as before. Now the developers have the advantage of knowing that there won't be that damage gap between Core-Only and Peripherals-Allowed (which includes PFS).
Calling it "Shoehorning" is a bit dramatic considering it's a feat, not a class feature. You can still make that Strength-based Swashbuckler — The one whose inferiority you yourself spent so much time and math demonstrating. In any case, I have no problem with the Swashbuckler being "shoehorned" into being Dex-Based. By that logic, all other melee classes are "shoehorned" into being Strength-Based, and Wizards are "shoehorned" into being Intelligence-based.
Depending on its details, it can actually open the class up to some more combat styles. Two Weapon Fighting with a Buckler (better AC and keeping Precise Strike) or an off-hand weapon (faster Panache generation and Dex-to-Damage offsetting the loss of Precise Strike). It potentially comes as a welcome buff to Rogues and Two Weapon Fighting in general. It could even be extended to the pistol for the Sword & Pistol archetype.
Improved Weapon Finesse isn't much of a feat tax when we get Weapon Finesse for free. Logically, the new feat should include the effect of Slashing Grace.
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I think MechE was being sarcastic.
Dex to damage doesn't increase the damage potential of the class, they'll just get it from a dex build rather than a strength build, which is why the change doesn't call for a nerf to accommodate.
It's a quality of life improvement, cutting down on the MAD and making the dex-based warrior actually work well as a dex-based warrior.
Barbarian says hello.I don't think Dex-to-damage is worth a feat, let alone two, for the same reasons I don't like Dervish Dance. Why?
Imagine there were two feats that replaced Dex with Strength for your reflex saves, AC (following the same armor limitations as Dex), and Initiative. Would you take them?
Really? Cause I could go for two extra helpings of Extra Rage Power on any Barbarian build I can think of. And even then, I'd only take them after I'd gotten the essentials like Power Attack and Combat Reflexes (which requires decent DEX anyway). Those two hypothetical feats would be much better on a Fighter (who has more feats than he knows what to do with anyway) and they'd be low-priority at best.
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So now that that's settled, can we talk about the save thing? Charmed Life is honestly a perfectly good bandaid for the cha-instead-of-wis issue, but nothing is going to solve the literally crippling fort save problem short of a good fort save. Would anyone here not be willing to give up the reflex save for it? And before you answer, whip up a playtest character and try fighting a ghast, or a few ghouls... pretty much any sort of undead. Good fort because you get hit with it steadily when it's around, ref and will bad but with the option to give up your precious precious immediate/swift to block a few a day seems good to me.
Past that, there are a lot of useless deeds in here, a few that feel like they're on the wrong level, and a need for some mobility type options. Let's see...
Derring-do: Not worth paying for the way panache works. I'd be fine dropping it, it'd be neat if it was always on with a panache in reserve.
Dodging Panache: It's incredibly rare that you can find a use for it, but it is good when it comes up... at very low levels when you have nothing better to do with your panache. Upgrade the movement to 10' at level 7, or just in general even, and it's worth keeping.
Parry/Riposte: Needs to come later because it's too much dip-bait as is, and I still think you should only be able to do it on something that will hit you. As is it's a no brainer to blow every point of free panache you get on it. If you couldn't do so basically every round, it'd be risky to horde for it and you'd look around.
Kip-Up: Perfect as it is and where it is.
Menacing Swordplay: Does it really need to be a swift? Can we just have it once a round, after dealing damage? It's a minor and obscure enough mechanic to be easily forgotten even then, and with all the demand on swifts, it becomes real hard to remember you can do it on rounds you aren't spending panache. I could also see just dropping it, if you want to do this, there's a feat.
Precise Strike: Enough with the weird half-measure approach. Stick it at level 1, drop the panache spending, let it crit normally. Just don't call it precision damage and tada. As written it is a very hard to detect trap which effectively locks you out of every other deed with no real benefit.
Swashbuckler's Initiative: Drop it and free up a slot for something good. Gunslingers benefit because they get to make a ranged full attack against an AC of 10 in round 1 if they go first. Swashbucklers just get to... move out of range of the wizard casting haste on everyone.
Swashbuckler's Grace: Technically a keeper, because hey, it's movement based, but I really have a hard time caring.
Superior Feint: Drop it. It's basically a mandatory teamwork feat that wastes your turn.
Targeted Strike: Drop it. The gunslinger version's good for cinematic stuff when someone's way across the room or on a balcony or something. Swashbucklers can just use maneuvers and not waste their whole turn.
Bleeding Wound: Perfect, don't change a thing... I'd suggest maybe moving it to 15, but around there it's hard to find things that bleed.
Evasive: Good, but maybe break it up? Seems weird to skip directly to improved Evasion.
Dizzing Defense: Drop it or maybe give it out at a low level. Really low. It'd be pretty neat at 1 or 3.
Perfect Thrust: Drop it. This isn't even a case of the gunslinger version working because you have ranged touch attacks. This is nerfing the gunslinger equivalent to the point there is no sane reason you'd ever consider it.
Swashbuckler's Edge: Move it to level 1? Maybe 3? It's neat, but pointless this high up. At level 1, I'd require a panache point to use it though, probably.
Cheat Death: Fine.
Deadly Stab: Change the save, it's just kinda silly.
Stunning Stab: Redundant, might be OK many levels earlier.
Trim the fat out of here and it makes room for a lot of things that actually benefit the theme. Some random suggestions:
Rebounding Charge: You may ignore allies (and difficult terrain?) while charging. Additionally, you may turn at any point while charging, provided you are adjacent to a wall or similar solid object to kick off.
Aggressive Opening: Spend 1 panache, full attack as a standard action.
Dancing Steps: Free blur when moving more than 10', always on with at least one panache? Or some other bonus to encourage moving around a lot in combat.
Light Steps: Move 10' while taking the 5' step action, or even better- Take a second 5' step.
Twist the Point: After confirming a critical hit but before rolling damage, you may spend 1 panache to increase the critical hit modifier of your weapon.
Exposing Strike: For your next attack (or if you really want to go nuts, while you have one panache), triple the normal critical threat range of weapon (20 becomes 18+, 19+ becomes 15+, 18+ becomes 12+). This effect does not stack with other effects that expand crit range (such as Swashbuckler Weapon Training). Obviously, this one would have to come at a real high level since it's self-fueling.
Something something swing from chandeliers and rigging: Precedent presumably exists somewhere, too lazy to look it up.
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I think two feat slots (only one if you're a Swashbuckler, since as Athaleon just pointed out, Swashbuckler already has finesse as a class feature from level 1) is a fair price to pay in order to make a single ability score determine the majority of your combat effectiveness numbers, as well as allowing you to have a decent AC without giving up movement speed or out-of-combat mobility in the levels before everyone can afford mithral armor.
If it's a feat, you can very nearly buy melee-SAD for two feat slots (not counting HP/CON, but everyone needs CON so that's not really a SAD/MAD issue). I'm 110% in favor of this because I absolutely LOVE finesse melee as a trope, but only at a price that actually makes it a somewhat difficult decision and retains its cool-ness and rarity.
Really? Cause I could go for two extra helpings of Extra Rage Power on any Barbarian build I can think of. And even then, I'd only take them after I'd gotten the essentials like Power Attack and Combat Reflexes (which requires decent DEX anyway). Those two hypothetical feats would be much better on a Fighter (who has more feats than he knows what to do with anyway) and they'd be low-priority at best.Barbarian says hello.I don't think Dex-to-damage is worth a feat, let alone two, for the same reasons I don't like Dervish Dance. Why?
Imagine there were two feats that replaced Dex with Strength for your reflex saves, AC (following the same armor limitations as Dex), and Initiative. Would you take them?
For a Human Two-Handed Fighter, I would definitely start at 1st level with Power Attack and these two feats, before weapon focus. This is because I would be building a much lower Dex than I currently do, probably 10 or 7 Dex, so I would want to minimize the pain. Furious Focus or Weapon Focus at 2nd level and the other at 3rd.