I say again, my feeling is the Slayer is shortchanged compared to the Ranger. Which is not necessarily an evil evil badwrongfun thing, just want to make sure we can either agree or disagree on this...Maybe you should back up your feeling with arguments... cause I'm not seeing where the Slayer compares poorly to the Ranger.
I think my "feeling" may just be the Ranger's spell casting and the hunter's bond, but to quote Lord_Malkov:
Just as a thought experiment, think of the Slayer, for a moment, as a ranger archetype.You give up:
Combat Style
Spells
Favored Enemy
Favored Terrain
Hunter's Bond
Evasion/Improved Evasion
Camouflage
Hide in Plain Sight
Woodland Stride
Wild Empathy
Endurance
And you are 3 levels behind on QuarryYou get:
6/10ths Sneak Attack
Limited rogue talents (most of which will be dumped for feats ASAP)
Favored Target (barely better than favored enemy and probably worse until 10th)
Slayer's Advance 1/day
- Favored Target is better (swift action if you want) at 7th, not 10th, and buff now applies to ability DCs;
- the Slayer can choose evasion from 10th level;
- the Slayer can choose a Ranger Combat Style from 3rd level;
- the Slayer now has a range of rogue talents to choose from;
- the Slayer now has 6 skill points.
* For some reason a bunch of the more interesting Slayer Talents have disappeared between versions.
* I guess it feels to me like the Combat Style and Evasion should be baked in, and not given as a choice that means you don't get something else.
So in terms of power: lacks the versatility of spell casting (regardless of the perceived utility or lack thereof of Ranger's spells) and the synergy of an animal companion/hunter's bond these two combined make the Slayer seem a little out in the cold.
Note that I do not want spell casting for the Slayer at all, merely mentioning it in terms of power; additionally the lack of options for creating a Sneak Attack opportunity when alone/not nearby allies make Sneak Attack (and its attendant non-synergy with Favored Target) less attractive.
* Also I can't actually see that many instances where the DC buff from Favored Target comes in useful - Slowing Strike and the capstone Master Slayer are the only abilities that seem to have tacit DC mentions… I guess there are a bunch of rogue talents that might have DCs, but not much specifically Slayer.
I just hope there are way more Talents and Feats in the final product, but for now I feel there are some basic problems for me with the Slayer.
If this class doesn't excel at sneaking, climbing, and disguise, it's just a (bad) fighter stand-in. I literally do not understand the objections to giving the slayer some choice of access to minor magical talents (both its parent classes have them), knowledge of traps (useful in both cities and the wilderness), and opportunities to find and slay people at the public market. Not crazy good Diplomacy buffs, not smoke bombs, not expertise in UMD, just basic sneaky, underhanded stuff.
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First impression of this (didn't really read the pre-revision one carefully): it's powerful!
The concept is to sneak up on foes and assassinate them silently. But you can just as well learn to use heavy armor (basically no abilities have an armor restriction), be a tank, and flank with other tanks. And you get an additional six skill points for doing this. Two weapons seems like a nice option, as you get all your bonuses on each attack.
The real benefit of sneaking for this class is to get to select your targets before the fight, so you don't lose time in-fight. That might make it pay to stay with less armor.
And you get six skill points. Basically for free.
I wonder if this isn't a better swashbuckler than the swashbuckler.
I believe a talent was missed for the slayer: Powerful Sneak. Deadly Sneak is listed as an available talent for Advanced Talents, but it requires Powerful Sneak which is not listed for the normal talents.
Thus, either Powerful Sneak was missed or Deadly Sneak could be taken without the prerequisite.
Thanks.
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This class excels at doing the one thing it's supposed to be good at: targeting and taking down opponents. It lives up to it's name. Given that it can't tank as well as the fighter or deal out as much brutality as the barbarian, nor does it have the versatility of the rogue...I'd say it feels like it's in a good place overall.
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Slayer is my favorite class. Not just in the playtest - overall. Here's why: thematically, I love Rangers. Competent, skilled warrior is my ideal character archetype. But I HATE conditional bonuses, and the Ranger is full of them. Slayer now gives me everything I wanted from the Ranger, but instead of the conditional bonuses, I get much weaker bonuses that I can use on whatever I want, whenever I want. This is perfect for me, and I love everything about the class and don't want it to change. Actually, I take that back, upon looking at the class again just now, I want it have Knowledge: Nature as a class skill. It just seems really weird to have all of the other wilderness based skills and abilities but not that.
If I were going to make the class weaker, I would drop Sneak Attack, as it is the ability I'm least attached too. It would still be my favorite class.
If I were going to refine the class a bit, I would make Slayer's Advance into a Slayer Talent, as it clearly feels like one and it seems weird to get this one specific talent that doesn't suit my playstyle at a specific (late) level with no other options.
If I were going to make the class better, I would add one level of Fighter Armor Training to the Slayer Talent list, as I really like that ability and it would be nice to move at full speed in medium armor.
I still have a question about the Favored Target action. At 7th level when the Slayer is able to perform his FT study as a move or swift action,
At 7th level, the slayer can study an opponent as a move or swift action.
Is it possible for the Slayer to spend a swift action to study one target and spend a move action to study a second target in the same round? IF it is allowed, the insertion of an and in the description might be a good idea for PFS and the rules lawyers out there.
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I still have a question about the Favored Target action. At 7th level when the Slayer is able to perform his FT study as a move or swift action,
At 7th level, the slayer can study an opponent as a move or swift action.Is it possible for the Slayer to spend a swift action to study one target and spend a move action to study a second target in the same round? IF it is allowed, the insertion of an and in the description might be a good idea for PFS and the rules lawyers out there.
No. That would cause a single activation of the ability to require expenditure of both actions. The current wording is correct for the functionality of being able to activate the ability twice and still have a standard action remaining. Your proposed change would remove the possibility of two activations in the same round.
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No. That would cause a single activation of the ability to require expenditure of both actions. The current wording is correct for the functionality of being able to activate the ability twice and still have a standard action remaining. Your proposed change would remove the possibility of two activations in the same round.I still have a question about the Favored Target action. At 7th level when the Slayer is able to perform his FT study as a move or swift action,
At 7th level, the slayer can study an opponent as a move or swift action.Is it possible for the Slayer to spend a swift action to study one target and spend a move action to study a second target in the same round? IF it is allowed, the insertion of an and in the description might be a good idea for PFS and the rules lawyers out there.
My grammar stands corrected. Thank you. However, I see people arguing over the wording and I would still like to see something from the design team stating their intent.
...
I was thinking and/or when I wrote my post above but you are right, that would still be grammatically wrong. Maybe a quick blurb after that section like this: The Slayer may use both actions to select two targets in a single round. It may be grammatically unnecessary, but I'm pretty sure it would solve some future arguments.
Another question:
Is the intention now for the assassinate advanced talent's DC to be based on Charisma? It's a ninja-borrowed talent where it is based on charisma. Previously, I believe the talent listed in the playtest itself was intelligence based.
Thanks.
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I'll add my vote to including some interaction between Favored Target and Sneak Attack that unifies the class' abilities, and that Hunter's Advance could stand to be usable more often. By that level a barbarian could have pounce (as could a druid, and a few other characters).
Maybe make it 1+Dex/day?
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I'll add my vote to including some interaction between Favored Target and Sneak Attack that unifies the class' abilities, and that Hunter's Advance could stand to be usable more often.
Honestly, when this class was announced I thought the Slayer would be able to sneak attack at will, but only against her favored target.
It was actually a suggestion of mine in the old thread to make Deadly Sneak a talent without Powerful Sneak as a prereq. This is because treating 1s as 2s is an average gain of 1/6th of a point of damage per die, which at level 20 (for Slayers) is going to be +1 damage per sneak attack (NOT per die). That's sad and weak, and not worth a talent. On the other hand, Deadly Sneak is an average increase (if you start from nothing) of 1/2 a point of damage per die, which works out to be more or less equal to a feat that says "when you sneak attack, do 3 extra damage on that sneak attack".
I'm still not sure if I would take it on a melee slayer (obviously no good on archers, which my current character is), but now at least I'm thinking about being able to work it in, where with the prereq, I'd be saying a solid "no thanks".
Seconded on the (unintended?) change to Assassinate being cha based.
Also seconding Slayer's Advance either being better, useable more frequently, and/or being made into a talent. It's kind of like a Ranger-shaped tonsil right now. Nobody knows what it's for.
Shadowlord - I can see possible room for initial confusion, but I don't think anyone could actually put together a reasonable argument that if you can do X with A or B, and you have both A and B, you can't do X twice. Not in context, anyway. Setting a precedent of being overclear is just about as bad as a precedent of underexplaining.
updated my pre-revision slayer build to the new doc:
traits:
-militia: +1 attack while flanking
-???
talents (effective slayer level):
2 - Ranger Combat Style: 2H (Power Attack)
4 - Weapon Training (fauchard)
6 - Combat Trick (Greater Trip)
11 (8) - Camouflage
13 (10) - Feat (Dimensional Dervish)
15 (12) - Opportunist
17 (14) - Ranger Combat Style: 2H (Furious Focus)
19 (16) - Ranger Combat Style: 2H (Dreadful Carnage)
feats:
1 - Combat Expertise, EWP (fauchard)
3 - Improved Trip
5 - Endurance
7 - Combat Reflexes
9 - Dimensional Agility
11 - Dimensional Assault
13 - Dimensional Savant
15 - Cornugon Smash
17 - Dazzling Display
19 - Shatter Defenses
ends up with:
favored target (4 targets)/stalker +4 (attack/damage, bluff, disguise, intimidate, knowledge, perception, sense motive, stealth, survival)
sneak attack (5d6)
track/swift tracker
quarry (+2 attack, take 10 to track)
slayer’s advance (2/day)
favored terrain (urban +4), (astral +2) (initiative, knowledge (geography), perception, stealth, survival)
terrain mastery/dominance (astral) (+2 hit/damage to astral plane natives, as favored enemy)
reach + trip shenanigans, self-flanking for easy sneak attack + opportunist for an extra swing (you are your own ally). Post-PFS you tack on fearstacking shenanigans to the mix.
all in all, pretty decent.
I say again, my feeling is the Slayer is shortchanged compared to the Ranger. Which is not necessarily an evil evil badwrongfun thing, just want to make sure we can either agree or disagree on this...Maybe you should back up your feeling with arguments... cause I'm not seeing where the Slayer compares poorly to the Ranger.I think my "feeling" may just be the Ranger's spell casting and the hunter's bond, but to quote Lord_Malkov:
Just as a thought experiment, think of the Slayer, for a moment, as a ranger archetype.You give up:
Combat Style
Spells
Favored Enemy
Favored Terrain
Hunter's Bond
Evasion/Improved Evasion
Camouflage
Hide in Plain Sight
Woodland Stride
Wild Empathy
Endurance
And you are 3 levels behind on QuarryYou get:
6/10ths Sneak Attack
Limited rogue talents (most of which will be dumped for feats ASAP)
Favored Target (barely better than favored enemy and probably worse until 10th)
Slayer's Advance 1/day- Favored Target is better (swift action if you want) at 7th, not 10th, and buff now applies to ability DCs;
- the Slayer can choose evasion from 10th level;
- the Slayer can choose a Ranger Combat Style from 3rd level;
- the Slayer now has a range of rogue talents to choose from;
- the Slayer now has 6 skill points.* For some reason a bunch of the more interesting Slayer Talents have disappeared between versions.
* I guess it feels to me like the Combat Style and Evasion should be baked in, and not given as a choice that means you don't get something else.
So in terms of power: lacks the versatility of spell casting (regardless of the perceived utility or lack thereof of Ranger's spells) and the synergy of an animal companion/hunter's bond these two combined make the Slayer seem a little out in the cold....
I did indeed say those things, and I meant them. The last version of this class was really quite sad on comparison.
However, I think they have done a good job here. Trapfinding is a very big deal to me, even if it is a talent. Combat style is a REALLY big thing for me even as a talent. Assuming that you take all of these options (combat style at 2, 6, 10 and trapfinding at 4), you are making up a ton of ground.
The ranger comparison then becomes far more favorable. Ranger is still a better class but the added skill points and trap finding really help to close the gap in utility. Spells, companion, favored terrain, are lost... but you grab sneak attack, trapfinding and access to some talents. Is it a perfect trade? No, but this is a playable class that brings some meat to the table.
For anyone looking for a "combat rogue" this class is 100% fixed. Comparing to rogue you lose 2 skill points per level, access to some nice talents, evasion/uncanny dodge and 4/10ths sneak attack progression. You gain access to combat styles (awesome) a 1d10 HD, full BAB (the big one), a strong Fort save (also awesome), Favored Target and Quarry.
The truth is that this class is sitting very snugly between the Ranger and the Rogue in terms of power, and that is just fine with me. I like every change that they have made, and I think this class will see a lot of play.
favored terrain arent lost, you can still grab the terrain mastery talent to pick those up. Also I agree. This is nicely placed between it's parents, and manages not to be dragged down by it's rogue heritage.
Btw Lord Malkov, the Ranger you posted in the comparison was off. It can't take Double Slice unless it spends one of it's Combat Styles on it.
Since he is generally supposed to be sneaky/ambushy, is there any chance Favored Target could also add its bonus to Stealth checks?
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The Slayer gets Terrain Mastery as a slayer talent. But Terrain Mastery is already a name for a Rogue Talent that does the exact same thing. Shouldn't that be added to the list of 15 Rogue Talents that the Slayer can choose from?
Yes, it should.
Also, rules query, The Slayer may select deadly sneak as a Slayer Talent, however, normally this talent has a pre-req of powerful sneak, which the Slayer cannot take. Is this A) an oversight, or B) a hyper-literal reading of the rules where a slayer doesn't need to meet the prerequisite because he's not a rogue?
I'll add powerful sneak to the list of selectable rogue talents. :)
I think it's pretty much universally agreed that the worst thing about the Rogue are its Talents.
That opinion is all well and good, but we can't start making slayer talents that are significantly better than rogue talents, because it would make any selectable rogue talent abysmal by comparison. The power of rogue/ninja/slayer talents is what they are, and we're not escalating that power level with this book. If you don't like any of the rogue talents because you think they're weak, just take the ones that grant you feats.
Is the intention now for the assassinate advanced talent's DC to be based on Charisma? It's a ninja-borrowed talent where it is based on charisma. Previously, I believe the talent listed in the playtest itself was intelligence based.
I've made a note to change assassinate back to an Int-based DC.
Doesnt it add to DCs? Wouldnthat include skill DCs?
Is Extra Rogue Talent an available option for Slayers to take, well, Slayer Talents and/or Rogue talents?
Is Extra Rogue Talent an available option for Slayers to take, well, Slayer Talents and/or Rogue talents?
The prereq is ROGUE talent class feature, so no. Whether it should be an option is an open question, and I'll say "sure, why not?", as long as it's an extra Slayer talent, rather than rogue, for obvious reasons. I suspect Extra Slayer Talent is already in the draft of new feats, if they've written it yet.
Is the intention now for the assassinate advanced talent's DC to be based on Charisma? It's a ninja-borrowed talent where it is based on charisma. Previously, I believe the talent listed in the playtest itself was intelligence based.I've made a note to change assassinate back to an Int-based DC.
Thanks for answering our questions/addressing our comments. It's greatly appreciated.
I'm loving the changes and hoping to see some unique talents and maybe still a tweak to Favored Target come release.
I'm also quite excited to see what sort of Iconic backstory will be devised for this class.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It gets just as many feats as the Fighter (Combat Trick)Unless I missed something, you can only take Combat Trick once.
Oh! You know what would be cool? If you could take Combat Trick once, plus an additional number of times equal to your INT bonus (if any). Eh? Eh? Cool, right?
Oh! You know what would be cool? If you could take Combat Trick once, plus an additional number of times equal to your INT bonus (if any). Eh? Eh? Cool, right?It gets just as many feats as the Fighter (Combat Trick)Unless I missed something, you can only take Combat Trick once.
Its really really unnecessary now.
Potential Bonus Feats
3 Combat Style Feats that ignore prereqs chosen from a Ranger Style.
Weapon Focus
Finesse Rogue
Combat Trick for a combat feat of your choice.
After 10th a feat of your choice.
If you're not an archer, you can make use of every single one of those but Finesse Rogue.
If you are, Finesse Rogue is nice for a sidearm.
Does the Favored Target bonus damage get added to a confirmed critical hit damage?
Really like the changes. I will be playing an updated 6th level slayer Sunday night, 15th and hope to give feedback after that.
I think this class so far is the one I would judge as "ready to go" the most.
Also, the Ninja called and said he wants a feat in the ACG to take Slayer talents (i.e. "get trapfinding" ^^). Also a feat called "Extra Ninja Trick". :p
@Lord_Malkov: Good to know you are happier, if not happy, with this version. I'm happy to wait for the final version, and perhaps more talents...
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Btw Lord Malkov, the Ranger you posted in the comparison was off. It can't take Double Slice unless it spends one of it's Combat Styles on it.
Well I guess that depends entirely upon your reading of the rules. Specifically this rule: "The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites."
Now does that extend to regular feats? I have always assumed that the answer was yes, for all of these instances (including, for example, Monk Bonus feats). Could it just be bonus feats? Sure, that is a totally fair reading of the rules, but I have always assumed the former, and will continue to do so. YVMV
Anyway, I digress.
The Slayer has had a great set of improvements in this revision, and I appreciate the devs listening to feedback. This is not a better frontline fighter or utility class than the Ranger, but the ranger is a very good martial class... one of the best IMO. The Slayer is instead a very good write-up for a Combat Rogue, which I think will satiate quite a few combat rogue enthusiasts upon release. This class could easily represent a duelist or a pirate or an assassin with its feature list, and that adaptability is a nice thing to see.
It is still going to be pretty melee focused because of sneak attack, but many holes have been filled in.
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@Lord_Malkov: Good to know you are happier, if not happy, with this version. I'm happy to wait for the final version, and perhaps more talents...
I am definitely happier. How could I not be? All buff and no nerf from where I am standing, and the Slayer needed it. Trapfinding is a huge deal, as are the six skill points. Those alone let this class contribute in pretty much as meaningful a way as the Rogue.
As I said, this is still no Ranger, but that argument may have to slide out of view, since the Ranger is so much better than the Rogue from a baseline (Urban Ranger and Archaeologist Bard sort of obsoleted the rogue already in my opinion). They combined a fairly good class (Ranger) with a fairly weak class (Rogue) and ended up somewhere in the middle. Seems okay to me.
Could this class do a little more to live up to the title of "Slayer"? Well yeah probably, but under certain conditions (namely when flanking) the Slayer will out damage the ranger and a lot of other classes to boot. This seems pretty fair to me all said and done.
I hope to see a few more Slayer-specific talents come down the pipe, since they are a bit bare in that area, but overall this class got a big big bump and I am satisfied with the result even if it is below a Ranger in my estimation.
I am happy with the ranger style talents, trapfinding as talent, and the improved action economy of favored target. If he is going to be tracking down targets he may need diplomacy to do it though. Other than that nothing sticks out at me, but I will read other people's comments later on since I am reading quickly and I may have missed something.
I think it's pretty much universally agreed that the worst thing about the Rogue are its Talents.That opinion is all well and good, but we can't start making slayer talents that are significantly better than rogue talents, because it would make any selectable rogue talent abysmal by comparison. The power of rogue/ninja/slayer talents is what they are, and we're not escalating that power level with this book. If you don't like any of the rogue talents because you think they're weak, just take the ones that grant you feats.
But that's not what the post you were replying to was about...he wanted MORE Slayer Talents (because there aren't very many of them), and you replied that he must have missed the 17 Rogue talents (emphasis yours) the Slayer got.
My reply was meant to get across that access to a number of Talents of varying value doesn't really make up for the fact that there are only 9 actual Slayer talents there (five of them dedicated to essentially "give back" class features from the parent classes, so there's really only FOUR unique Slayer Talents).
The Slayer doesn't get much of its own in that regard, at all. And the reason for that is that most of its "Unique Class Feature Slots", basically, are taken up by most people's least favorite part of one of its parent classes.
Traits exist.
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You do realize that the Trapfinding Talent's first line is "the hunter (probably supposed to be slayer) gains Disable Device as a class skill" right?
It makes no sense to give the slayer trapfinding but not disable device
I also think this character should get UMD and diplomacy.
[Emphasis mine] Ok. I'll bite. What about "Slayer" says Diplomat or Magic User? Regardless, I'm sure archetypes can do this for you.
Gather information. Wands of everything.
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Not everyone needs to get everything
