Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the REVISED version of the Slayer. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Once you have had a chance to playtest the revised version, please be sure to update your survey results, which can be found HERE
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I AM PLEASED.
Little to no complaints here. Slayer is definitely good to go now.
Slayer's Advance is still a bit underwhelming. It'd be nice if it was a pseudo-pounce.
Yeah, I'm on board with this one. With Scavion on the advance feeling a little... wimpy, but otherwise it's looking great.
Well I guess I should be happy for the 6 skill points, and the Ranger combat feats. :)
Still wanted the big change on Favored Target action economy. Oh well, I still like the class...
Yes ranger combat styles!
Personally I'm still a bit underwhelmed. Its better though.
The Good
-Favored Target changes (much applause)
-Ranger Combat Styles
-Skill point changes + bluff to class skills
-Trapfinding talentThe Bad
-Sneak Attack (still don't really like it as it doesn't tie into Favored Target and makes the class too much of an opportunist, which I don't really picture when I hear the name Slayer. I really like the Investigators studied foe and would have loved something like that. )
-Slayer Talents (Rogue talents) for the most part are still underwhelming.And really if you want to keep Sneak Attack renamed this Stalker.
[Emphasis mine] I agree here. There are too few Slayer Talents and having two relating to Sneak Attack, which you don't get until 3rd level bugs me - you essentially can only choose from 5 at 2nd level, one of which is Trapfinding? I don't get that thematically at all from a Slayer…
[EDIT} And I was also not fond of Sneak Attack for the Slayer. The Investigator's studied for sounds much better (runs off to read that ability)]
Woooaaah. Investigators get 20 talents compared to the Slayer's 7!?!?! Ok ok, so Investigators are more skilled and out of combat, but even still, the Slayer's talent selection is paltry, even with Advanced Talents… Oh, hang on. Missed the Rogue talents. Well that makes up for it then… :)
The Investigator's Studied Combat and Studied Strike are perfect for the Slayer. ;( I'll have to mash these two Hybrids together in the future...
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Still wanted the big change on Favored Target action economy. Oh well, I still like the class...
I'll point out that it becomes a swift action at 7th level now (one level after you get your first iterative attack), when it was 10th level originally.
[Emphasis mine] I agree here. There are too few Slayer Talents
I think you missed that there's a list of 17 rogue talents you can select as a slayer talent (and 15 of those don't add to sneak attack).
one of which is Trapfinding? I don't get that thematically at all from a Slayer…
Many, many people requested that we add trapfinding as a slayer talent so they could have a trap-proficient slayer character.
I thought they were going to add some additional ways to get sneak attack damage off. Am I missing something?
Yeah, I thought that too. Oh well.
Still wanted the big change on Favored Target action economy. Oh well, I still like the class...I'll point out that it becomes a swift action at 7th level now (one level after you get your first iterative attack), when it was 10th level originally.
Just saw that, and noticed the DC buff too. Nice.
[Emphasis mine] I agree here. There are too few Slayer TalentsI think you missed that there's a list of 17 rogue talents you can select as a slayer talent (and 15 of those don't add to sneak attack).
I amended that in my next post. I guess I wasn't wowed by the new Slayer specific ones, and the Investigator gets Rogue Talents AS WELL as his new score of Talents.... But there is still time for more! :)
one of which is Trapfinding? I don't get that thematically at all from a Slayer…Many, many people requested that we add trapfinding as a slayer talent so they could have a trap-proficient slayer character.
Fair enough.
I thought they were going to add some additional ways to get sneak attack damage off. Am I missing something?
The rogue talents "hunter's surprise" and "surprise attack" accomplish that.
Well, I don't believe anyone on the design team promised or even hinted that "more opportunities for slayer sneak attack" was on the table.
As for your opinion of 1/day talents, okay then.
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All good improvements. I have a slayer NPC waiting to go at my next session who will like a lot of these new talents.
The slayer looks good on paper, but I think the power level has the potential to be way different in play.
I would like to see an archetype that really plays up the sniper angle.
EDIT: I find trap finding appropriate for a character who may need to sneak into the wizard's castle, bypass his defenses, and kill him in his sleep. BUt do let me throw my vote in the down with 1/day. My biggest complaint for these types of abilities is usually one of suspension of disbelief.
I agree with Davick on the Trapfinding thing. A key principle of killing someone is getting past the locked door between you and them, and not dying to the acid pit behind the door.
Overall, Excellent changes. Earlier swift action Targeting is handy, as is the DC boost, and getting bluff as a class skill if you're going feinting.
I very much like the Combat style feats. But I do just wish I could take the Combat Trick Slayer talent multiple times.
Also, I kinda want to second Slayer's advance's lacklusterness. It just doesn't seem like it'll be applicable once per day, and I kinda wish I did more. Either more movement or a swift action (Or both, but lets not be greedy).
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This class looked solid on its first version, now it looks like concrete. Good one.
Are the combat style feats acquired disregarding prerequisites as a Ranger does or does the Slayer still need to meet those?
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Are the combat style feats acquired disregarding prerequisites as a Ranger does or does the Slayer still need to meet those?
Actually, that was my question as well, but aimed specifically at "Point Blank Master" from page 167 of the Advanced Players Guide.
Not sure if you want discovered typos here, but here goes:
Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style style.
I guess I'm still not particularly happy with TWF options and Favored Target. Favored Target as it stands points Slayers directly at ranged weapons until 7th level…
I'll keep playtesting...
I like these changes quite a bit, I wish that the class had uncanny dodge, just so I could trade that in for Scout Archetype. If I had access to scout this class would be perfect.
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Our current thought is that a slayer who chooses "ranger combat style" as a slayer talent can select his bonus feat like a ranger, meaning he doesn't have to meet the prerequisites for the feat.
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Our current thought is that a slayer who chooses "ranger combat style" as a slayer talent can select his bonus feat like a ranger, meaning he doesn't have to meet the prerequisites for the feat.
Fantastic. Can we look forward to some archetypes to get some utility use out of the Slayer now that we have combat effectiveness down? Trapfinding as a talent was a great step in the right direction.
Comparably the Ranger still has a bit over the Slayer with spells, but we're getting there!
I'll post a rework of my TWF Slayer build in the thread in a bit.
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Initial Thoughts:
Love a bunch of these slayer talents; I wonder if any of them will be available to the rogue (and the ninja by extent) in the same manner that rogues can take ninja tricks as rogue talents (and vice versa).
The Slayer gets Terrain Mastery as a slayer talent. But Terrain Mastery is already a name for a Rogue Talent that does the exact same thing. Shouldn't that be added to the list of 15 Rogue Talents that the Slayer can choose from?
Oh man, the Slayer can pick poison use and trapfinding as a talent? Yup. Okay. The rogue (and ninja) need the ability to do this. Please. Pretty please. Pretty pretty pretty please. Sean, Jason, and Stephen, I'm practically begging you here, PLEASE.
You gotta love a class where Stalker (Ex) is a class feature.
Overall, this class doesn't really have much new to it, but that's not really a bad thing. Ranged Slayers don't really work all that well because sneak attacking at a range is designed to be a pain in the neck, which I find disappointing. I'm really more interested in what this class could mean for the Rogue and its archetypes, however. Notably if the Rogue and Ninja gain the ability to easily pick up Trapfinding (any Rogue Archetype that trades it) and Poison Use (Rogue) more easily.
I understand why they currently don't, but I'd love to see the Slayer get access to Vanishing Trick (and ki pool by extension, I guess). Make it an advanced talent if you have to, but they really need a bit of help getting the sneak in.
On a related topic, I'd like to see a "throwing" combat style introduced for rangers and slayers.
At a first and second read, I love the changes. Thank you for adding additional skill points. I am a fan of adding Disable Device due to reasons already stated by myself on the previous thread and others on this one. Trap Finding was more than I would have asked for on that front but is a good inclusion. As for extra Sneak Attack options, I agree with leaving them out of the base class, I don't think a hybrid class should be naturally better at gaining Sneak Attack than a Rogue. Beside that, there are several feat based options that the Slayer can afford now with some of those new Slayer Talents.
A few things I want to bring up:
1. When a Slayer takes the Ranger Style Talent does it have to qualify for the feats with prerequisites or does it ignore them like it's Ranger parent? For instance the Dex requirement for the TWF feat line.
::Edit:: Answered. Thank you.
2. IMO I think there are a few more things from the Rogue parent that would fit perfectly for the Slayer. The first of those is the Bandit Archetype's Ambush ability. To be clear, I don't think this is something the Slayer MUST HAVE, I just think it's a great fit with the Favored Class swift action, Slayer's Advance move action, and Sneak Attack to open an ambush against a target. Might be too much though. There are several ways this could be added to the class, talent or advanced talent, class feature, or by Slayer archetype.
3. The second Rogue thing that would probably make Sneak Attack more favorable is are the Scout abilities that allow for a Sneak Attack after movement. Again, this is not a MUST HAVE for the class, just something that would probably fit the name and idea of a Slayer really well. This should definitely NOT be a talent or advanced talent, and it should probably not be an added class feature at this point but a Slayer archetype mimicking the Rogue archetype would fit nicely IMO.
4. I still think the Advanced Talent list should include some sort of Hide in Plain Sight. Both parents have it and the Slayer has every step leading up to that ability in their talent list already.
Thanks for the revision.
I understand why they currently don't, but I'd love to see the Slayer get access to Vanishing Trick (and ki pool by extension, I guess). Make it an advanced talent if you have to, but they really need a bit of help getting the sneak in.
On a related topic, I'd like to see a "throwing" combat style introduced for rangers and slayers.
thought this too...this or Scout. I just want a way to get off sneak attack that isn't flank and isn't one round a day.
Dot
Frankly I think they either need to revise Sneak Attack or give a Slayer/Rogue talent that significantly augments it, or best yet give the Slayer something unique.
Right now outside of the surprise round a Fighter with Weapon Specialization and GWF is better at slaying a target than the "Slayer" is against its Favored Target. The Fighter will have the same attack bonus, +1 to damage with its preferred weapon and that's before you count the better AC and gloves of dueling. The Slayer will need a party member to catch up. It can't slay on its own.
Doesn't that seem wrong to you? You'd imagine the Slayer to be really good at slaying his Favored Targets but no, the class damage feature and Favored Target have zero interaction. There are zero Slayer talents that augment Favored Target.
Quiet frankly (and I don't mean this to be insulting) the vast majority of this class is copy and paste with a tweak here or there.
Ultimately that means the Slayer falls into the same trap of the Rogue. except it traded some damage dice to the full BAB (granted its the better deal). That's the problem with Sneak Attack, you need another party member or to throw in very specific feat trees (the op courgon smash, feint tree, etc) and skills with high modifiers to try get any use out of it. The other classes in the game work better in a group but they don't stop functioning well without them unlike Sneak Attack.
The Fighter doesn't lose anything without party members.
The Wizard doesn't lose anything. They might want a meat shield/summons up or select a spell they can't cast on themselves but they don't really lose class features.
The Cleric preparing heal spells doesn't lose anything. Sure it might be more useful in a group but the Cleric can still heal himself.
The Paladin really doesn't lose anything, he still gains benefits from his auras, even if they are better with a group.
Even the freaking Bard allows themselves to be buffed with Bardic Performance.
The Slayer and Rogue lose something...
also dont forget that SA is completely shut down by concealment, meaning you cant shank some dude in the dark (when is usually when/where you WANT to be sneaking up to stab the dude), unless you have darkvision. also blur is easy to get and likewise shuts them down with no effort.
sure you can remove this problem with two feats (the twilight stalker ones) or an expensive item (headbanfd of ninjutsu), but it still boggles the mind that a sneaky guy cant fight sneaky in the dark.
ArenCordial, maybe the Fighter, but not the Ranger. The Slayer is not meant to be a better fighter.
A Slayer deals damage slightly better damage than a Ranger.
A Ranger fighting his Favored Enemy deals damage on par with a Slayer getting his Sneak Attack.
Before the only obvious combat advantage the Ranger had on the Slayer was being able to prioritize Dex since they could ignore the Dex requirement on TWF.
The Slayer just had a ton of feats freed up. This means he can feint or seek other methods of getting his Sneak Attack.
except via instant enemy he gets his combat shtick off without having to jump through flaming hoops made of tigers.
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This is awesome.
You could TOTALLY build Artemis Enterai with this class.
TWF ranger talents
Terrain Mastery (Urban)
Slayer Camouflage.
Trap finding
And done.
it definitely lends well to assassin's creed-esque characters (unless you plan on fighting at night)
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I really feel like there should be some way to have Favored Target and Sneak Attack interact, to make the class feel more like a unified whole instead of a Frankenstein'd mish-mash of partial class features from the parents.
I liked the idea mentioned before of your favored target being open to SA. Heck I would be all for leaving favored target a move action since it would actually be worth it for the added benefit. Flavor wise it makes sense, you took a moment to study the enemies weak points and know how to best take advantage.
...Frankly I think they either need to revise Sneak Attack or give a Slayer/Rogue talent that significantly augments it, or best yet give the Slayer something unique.
Right now outside of the surprise round a Fighter with Weapon Specialization and GWF is better at slaying a target than the "Slayer" is against its Favored Target. The Fighter will have the same attack bonus, +1 to damage with its preferred weapon and that's before you count the better AC and gloves of dueling. The Slayer will need a party member to catch up. It can't slay on its own.
Doesn't that seem wrong to you? You'd imagine the Slayer to be really good at slaying his Favored Targets but no, the class damage feature and Favored Target have zero interaction. There are zero Slayer talents that augment Favored Target.
Quiet frankly (and I don't mean this to be insulting) the vast majority of this class is copy and paste with a tweak here or there.
Ultimately that means the Slayer falls into the same trap of the Rogue. except it traded some damage dice to the full BAB (granted its the better deal). That's the problem with Sneak Attack, you need another party member or to throw in very specific feat trees (the op courgon smash, feint tree, etc) and skills with high modifiers to try get any use out of it. The other classes in the game work better in a group but they don't stop functioning well without them unlike Sneak Attack.
The Fighter doesn't lose anything without party members.
The Wizard doesn't lose anything. They might want a meat shield/summons up or select a spell they can't cast on themselves but they don't really lose class features.
The Cleric preparing heal spells doesn't lose anything. Sure it might be more useful in a group but the Cleric can still heal himself.
The Paladin really doesn't lose anything, he still gains benefits from his auras, even if they are better with a group.
Even the freaking Bard allows themselves to be buffed with Bardic Performance.
The
The feat "Shadowstrike" helps here. I'm not a fan of feat taxes, especially not to make iconic abilities actually functional, but there you have it.
Still not big on this one.
...Frankly I think they either need to revise Sneak Attack or give a Slayer/Rogue talent that significantly augments it, or best yet give the Slayer something unique.
Right now outside of the surprise round a Fighter with Weapon Specialization and GWF is better at slaying a target than the "Slayer" is against its Favored Target. The Fighter will have the same attack bonus, +1 to damage with its preferred weapon and that's before you count the better AC and gloves of dueling. The Slayer will need a party member to catch up. It can't slay on its own.
Doesn't that seem wrong to you? You'd imagine the Slayer to be really good at slaying his Favored Targets but no, the class damage feature and Favored Target have zero interaction. There are zero Slayer talents that augment Favored Target.
Quiet frankly (and I don't mean this to be insulting) the vast majority of this class is copy and paste with a tweak here or there.
Ultimately that means the Slayer falls into the same trap of the Rogue. except it traded some damage dice to the full BAB (granted its the better deal). That's the problem with Sneak Attack, you need another party member or to throw in very specific feat trees (the op courgon smash, feint tree, etc) and skills with high modifiers to try get any use out of it. The other classes in the game work better in a group but they don't stop functioning well without them unlike Sneak Attack.
The Fighter doesn't lose anything without party members.
The Wizard doesn't lose anything. They might want a meat shield/summons up or select a spell they can't cast on themselves but they don't really lose class features.
The Cleric preparing heal spells doesn't lose anything. Sure it might be more useful in a group but the Cleric can still heal himself.
The Paladin really doesn't lose anything, he still gains benefits from his auras, even if they are better with a group.
Even the freaking Bard allows themselves to be buffed
forgot shadowstrike, yeah.
still great that classes that are already hurting (the rogue, mainly here) need a feat tax to even function in comparison to other classes.
This is awesome.
You could TOTALLY build Artemis Enterai with this class.
TWF ranger talents
Terrain Mastery (Urban)
Slayer Camouflage.
Trap findingAnd done.
Or Haern The Watcher.
A fighter with Weapon Spec and GWF is, IIRC, eighth level, by which point the Slayer's favoured Target is giving him +2 hit and damage and selecting a target as a swift action, putting them equal? Have I missed something?
Also, rules query, The Slayer may select deadly sneak as a Slayer Talent, however, normally this talent has a pre-req of powerful sneak, which the Slayer cannot take. Is this A) an oversight, or B) a hyper-literal reading of the rules where a slayer doesn't need to meet the prerequisite because he's not a rogue?
EDit: the lone slayer can...um, Improved two weapon feint. Favourted target offsets TWF penalties, I guess?