A feat or trait to let you do the Captain Kirk two handed overhead smash would be nifty.
:)
-j
This would be really cool for ONE BIG PUNCH Brawler build with vital strike with 1.5 STR on as well.
Is that what I'm saying? I don't see where I've said anything like that. I'm talking about combat feats, and you're trying to broaden that into "every single nonmagical class feature." Don't.Soo... what you're saying then is there should be a Rage Feat? Rage Power Feat (not extra rage power, a feat that lets you take Rage Powers)?
Uncanny Dodge Feat? Improved?
Evasion Feat? Improved?
Favored Enemy Feat?
Favored Terrain Feat?
Hunters Bond Feat?
You basically said that the Brawler isn't a magical class (despite magical face punching) and so all of his abilities need to be accessible through feats.
Apply the same logic to other classes. Barbarians aren't magical, so all of his abilities need to be feats that others can take.
While Ranger has 4 levels of casting, all of his other abilities aren't really magical, so they need to be feats that others can take.
Any non-magical aspects of Rogues, need to be feats that others can take. Looking forward to the Sneak Attack feat for fighters.
On the topic of magic gloves... how about magical belts of different colors? That enhance the entire body? Perhaps adding on appropriate Strength bonuses? More expensive, sure, but brawlers eventually need gloves of Dexterity anyway.
Uh, all of the physical stat boosting items were turned into belts.
Belts of Incredible Dexterity (+2 - +6 Dex)
Belt of Giant Strength (+2 - +6 Str)
Belt of Mighty (+2 - +6 Con)
Belt of Physical Mighty Constitution (+2 - +6 to two physical stats)
Belt of Physical Perfection (+2 - +6 to all three physical stats)
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You basically said that the Brawler isn't a magical class (despite magical face punching)
One, I've already stated the brawler's strike could easily by Ex instead of Su, so you need to stop trying to argue this point.
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and so all of his abilities need to be accessible through feats.
Two, that is NOT what I said. What I said was:
I appreciate the suggestion of brawler disciplines, but the brawler already gets 7 bonus combat feats, and bonus combat feats are how you customize individual members of this class. Anything like these suggested brawler disciplines are exactly the sort of thing that would make an interesting combat feat, and should be available to any character able to select combat feats (because these aren't unique, magical abilities, because this isn't a magical class, so they're things you should be able to learn with the proper training, and therefore should be combat feats).
Notice how I specifically called out combat feats six times. Not "all brawler class abilities," I said "combat feats." Six times.
Try not to exaggerate what I say or put words into my mouth, especially when it's incredibly easy to prove I didn't say anything like what you're suggesting I'm saying.
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Three, you're coming off as really hostile, like you need to prove a point or "win" this discussion. Maybe you should rethink that attitude and whether or not it's helpful to the playtest.
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Any chance you'll address the bit where Brawler can barely/cannot use Awesome Blow against CR appropriate encounters when he gets it and the gulf doesn't get any better as levels increase? Even at level 20 trying it against a CR 14 monster from the bestiary is pushing one's luck.
Well, lets approach it from a different angle. The brawler disciplines that were suggested *are* very attractive and any number of martial classes would love to get their hands on them. (Though I'd be very - if pleasantly - surprised if they ever did make it into feat form).
But let's discuss the disciplines themselves: there is no reason why there can't be disciplines available that do not make sense as combat feats. For example disciplines that manipulate the Martial Maneuvers mechanic (2 extra uses a day, 2 minute duration, etc), or disciplines that improve/modify other brawler class abilities (such as a discipline to count as 2 levels higher for the Brawler's Strike, a discipline to increase the DC of knockout, and a discipline to use a specific non-monk non-close weapon in a flurry). Also disciplines that are "any combat feat, may be taken multiple times".
Sure... those things could also be implemented as combat feats; but they are very specific to the class and don't really offer anything to most other classes.
The important thing is that brawler disciplines could be a vehicle to present unique brawler options. Even some of the originally suggested disciplines: every martial class might want them, but maybe for balance reasons they should be limited to the brawler?
To devil's advocate myself a little: there are plenty of feats that are class specific, that enhance favored enemy for example, or grant additional rage rounds. So from that perspective my suggestion to have extra uses of Martial Maneuvers and longer duration Martial Maneuvers could very well be implemented as a feat.
I think, however, that it is fair to say that having those class specific options available at the class itself is more palatable to the user. I know that I can go to the rogue class in each of the hardcovers and easily browse the new talents available. It's much harder to eye through feats trying to find those feats relevant to your class.
I've seen Uncanny Dodge done up in some third party books as a feat, and it's workable if you set the right requirements. Armor Training would be trickier, but I could see that. Again, with proper prerequisites that are skipped by their native classes. I think it's a perfectly valid criticism of a class feature to say, "You know, that looks like an ability that would be equally applicable to characters of multiple classes and should have about the same prereqs for everyone, so let's make that a feat." A thought process I wish was was employed more often when people start writing fighter archetypes, which as often as not, swap one or more bonus feats for I-Can't-Believe-This-Isn't-A-Feat (TM). As SKR said, it's not open season on all non-magical abilities, but if something works as a feat, make it a feat.
Any chance you'll address the bit where Brawler can barely/cannot use Awesome Blow against CR appropriate encounters when he gets it and the gulf doesn't get any better as levels increase? Even at level 20 trying it against a CR 14 monster from the bestiary is pushing one's luck.
The above statements are only true if you ignore that the PCs will still be fighting humanoid characters with class levels.
Barbarian 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 36 (42 vs. bull rush, 40 vs. trip)
Fighter 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 41
Monk 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 46 (48 vs. trip)
Using the example brawler 20 with +30 CMB, the above numbers range from easy to reasonable.
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But let's discuss the disciplines themselves: there is no reason why there can't be disciplines available that do not make sense as combat feats. For example disciplines that manipulate the Martial Maneuvers mechanic (2 extra uses a day, 2 minute duration, etc), or disciplines that improve/modify other brawler class abilities (such as a discipline to count as 2 levels higher for the Brawler's Strike, a discipline to increase the DC of knockout, and a discipline to use a specific non-monk non-close weapon in a flurry). Also disciplines that are "any combat feat, may be taken multiple times".
There are already combat feats which require one of the following:
domain (even though clerics and inquisitors don't get bonus combat feats)lay on hands (even though paladins don't get bonus combat feats)
poison use (even though alchemists and ninjas don't get bonus combat feats)
sneak attack (even though rogues don't get bonus combat feats)
and other class specific features for classes which don't get bonus combat feats.
So there's no reason we couldn't have a combat feat that modifies a brawler ability, or a warpriest ability, and so on.
What you're proposing is creating a new class feature for the brawler with which you choose options for as you level up, but isn't combat feats.
As opposed to the current setup, which is a familiar class feature for the brawler (bonus combat feats) with which you choose options for as you level up, and is combat feats.
What do we gain by doing it your way instead of the current way? Nothing. And with the current way, other classes can grab appropriate feats if they fit their classes. For example, a brawler/rogue could take Sap Adept, which is a combat feat (which brawlers get extras of) which modifies sneak attack (which a brawler doesn't get, but a brawler/rogue would). You're basically saying, "rogues don't get bonus combat feats, so why should we have combat feats which modify sneak attack?" ... which ignores that there are zillions of ways that (1) any particular rogue might get a combat feat, and (2) that there is a benefit to labeling a feat as a combat feat, even if doing so doesn't help the class that feat is written for.
In other words, don't arguing for a class mechanic that actually reduces the number of available options for characters.
Any chance you'll address the bit where Brawler can barely/cannot use Awesome Blow against CR appropriate encounters when he gets it and the gulf doesn't get any better as levels increase? Even at level 20 trying it against a CR 14 monster from the bestiary is pushing one's luck.The above statements are only true if you ignore that the PCs will still be fighting humanoid characters with class levels.
Barbarian 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 36 (42 vs. bull rush, 40 vs. trip)
Fighter 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 41
Monk 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 46 (48 vs. trip)Using the example brawler 20 with +30 CMB, the above numbers range from easy to reasonable.
So our capstone should only be effective when fighting easy(APL-1) humanoid encounters. Meanwhile our parents are using their capstones every fight all the time, Weapon Mastery and Perfect Self.
So our capstone should only be effective when fighting easy(APL-1) humanoid encounters. Meanwhile our parents are using their capstones every fight all the time, Weapon Mastery and Perfect Self.Any chance you'll address the bit where Brawler can barely/cannot use Awesome Blow against CR appropriate encounters when he gets it and the gulf doesn't get any better as levels increase? Even at level 20 trying it against a CR 14 monster from the bestiary is pushing one's luck.The above statements are only true if you ignore that the PCs will still be fighting humanoid characters with class levels.
Barbarian 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 36 (42 vs. bull rush, 40 vs. trip)
Fighter 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 41
Monk 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 46 (48 vs. trip)Using the example brawler 20 with +30 CMB, the above numbers range from easy to reasonable.
Well, to be fair, the capstone works as an attack, not an action. Suppose I only have a 20% chance to succeed. If I make 6 or 7 attacks with a full attack (I'm assuming improved awesome blow works with flurry), I'm very likely to succeed on at least one of them. I get unlimited attempts at awesome blow and a lot of attacks per round, some of them are going to stick even against a very difficult opponent.
I am excited about brawlers and I understand people's reservations about AoMF being pretty much mandated, but what's the sense in arguing that here? We should focus on what we can hope to get changed. Do I like Brawler's Strike, particularly as a SU? No, but who cares, as SKR said, nothing would really change if it becomes "EX". So why continue to discuss it?
Martial Maneuvers is the go to feature of this class. What could be done to get more uses of it? What if we take away the AC bonus? Would that be enough to justify increasing the number of martial maneuvers per day?
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Martial Maneuvers is the go to feature of this class. What could be done to get more uses of it? What if we take away the AC bonus? Would that be enough to justify increasing the number of martial maneuvers per day?
You're correct in that the Brawler desperately needs more uses of Martial Maneuvers per day, though I'm unsure why it has to sacrifice anything for it. It's basically its fundamental "cool thing," and although it's strong, it's not the kind of "I break encounters wide open" strong that relegates it to 10 uses at 20th level. I mean, a wizard can cast - at minimum - 5 9th level spells at 20th level.
It definitely shouldn't give up the AC bonus. The AC on this class is not going to be outstanding as is.
Well, to be fair, the capstone works as an attack, not an action. Suppose I only have a 20% chance to succeed. If I make 6 or 7 attacks with a full attack (I'm assuming improved awesome blow works with flurry), I'm very likely to succeed on at least one of them. I get unlimited attempts at awesome blow and a lot of attacks per round, some of them are going to stick even against a very difficult opponent.
I am excited about brawlers and I understand people's reservations about AoMF being pretty much mandated, but what's the sense in arguing that here? We should focus on what we can hope to get changed. Do I like Brawler's Strike, particularly as a SU? No, but who cares, as SKR said, nothing would really change if it becomes "EX". So why continue to discuss it?
Martial Maneuvers is the go to feature of this class. What could be done to get more uses of it? What if we take away the AC bonus? Would that be enough to justify increasing the number of martial maneuvers per day?
Except you don't have a 20% chance to succeed. Against average opponents (Other CR20 creatures) you have a 5% chance of success. You only get that because it's still an attack roll that auto succeeds on a 20. <=And really I'm just guessing on that, it seems right to me, the auto success that is.
There is tons of merit in arguing about AoMF because the book will include new magical items that could fix the issue. An issue thats been proven to have no basis for it's exclusion.
Brawler's Strike wouldn't change if it was switched to EX. That is the whole point. For our purely non-mystic class that was advertised, I don't want to see anything with the Supernatural tag. And Brutal Blows is a much more elegant fix than Ki Strike but Brawler.
The Martial Maneuvers can be fixed with a feat tax if need be. I wouldn't mind spending a feat to have it longer, or be able to switch from one feat to another without burning a usage.
Okay, but you should be comparing improved awesome blow to weapon mastery, or perfect self, or mighty rage.
Weapon mastery: one weapon increases its crit multiplier by 1 (useful only if you crit), you auto-confirm crits with that type of weapon (useful only if you threaten), and you can't be disarmed (big whoop). What % chance to crit does a fighter 20 have to crit against a CR 20 opponent? And if you do crit, you're doing 1 extra increment of weapon damage.
Perfect self: you become an outsider, so you're immune to humanoid-specific attacks (of which there are few, so you're basically immune to level 1 charm person and level 5 dominate person), and DR 10/chaotic (which is actually pretty useful).
Mighty Rage: Your raging Str/Con bonus increases by +2 and your raging Will save bonus increases by +1. Wow.
Could the brawler still use a little oomph for its capstone ability? Sure. But capstones really aren't that amazing, they're nice, but not supposed to be overwhelming.
Well, to be fair, the capstone works as an attack, not an action. Suppose I only have a 20% chance to succeed. If I make 6 or 7 attacks with a full attack (I'm assuming improved awesome blow works with flurry), I'm very likely to succeed on at least one of them. I get unlimited attempts at awesome blow and a lot of attacks per round, some of them are going to stick even against a very difficult opponent.
I am excited about brawlers and I understand people's reservations about AoMF being pretty much mandated, but what's the sense in arguing that here? We should focus on what we can hope to get changed. Do I like Brawler's Strike, particularly as a SU? No, but who cares, as SKR said, nothing would really change if it becomes "EX". So why continue to discuss it?
Martial Maneuvers is the go to feature of this class. What could be done to get more uses of it? What if we take away the AC bonus? Would that be enough to justify increasing the number of martial maneuvers per day?
Except you don't have a 20% chance to succeed. Against average opponents (Other CR20 creatures) you have a 5% chance of success. You only get that because it's still an attack roll that auto succeeds on a 20. <=And really I'm just guessing on that, it seems right to me, the auto success that is.
There is tons of merit in arguing about AoMF because the book will include new magical items that could fix the issue. An issue thats been proven to have no basis for it's exclusion.
Brawler's Strike wouldn't change if it was switched to EX. That is the whole point. For our purely non-mystic class that was advertised, I don't want to see anything with the Supernatural tag. And Brutal Blows is a much more elegant fix than Ki Strike but Brawler.
The Martial Maneuvers can be fixed with a feat tax if need be. I wouldn't mind spending a feat to have it longer, or be able to switch from one feat to another without burning a usage.
Is it really only 5%? See, I thought Awesome Blow worked with different maneuvers, but upon rereading it looks like you have to make an "Awesome Blow" maneuver to use it. If you could use trips, dirty tricks, grapples, etc with awesome blow it would have a much higher success rate (with feat bonuses and maneuver training). Hmm, can awesome blow be used with different maneuvers?
Re: Brawler's Strike--I agree about not wanting it to be SU. But basically you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that you'd be ok with Brawler's strike as Ex, but you don't want it as Su. If it has no mechanical difference, then why even argue about it? Just literally to have two different letters in the class writeup if you're successful? Wouldn't it be better to just discuss other points that could make the class more interesting rather than a semantic change?
I almost wish there were some kind of recharge mechanic for Martial Maneuvers, though I'm not sure how it would work/what form it would take. Maybe something like chaining maneuvers following a successful attack (ie, use a maneuver successfully one round, next round you get to use martial maneuvers again with the same or different maneuver or something.)
Just a wild idea that occurred to me.
Okay, but you should be comparing improved awesome blow to weapon mastery, or perfect self, or mighty rage.
Weapon mastery: one weapon increases its crit multiplier by 1 (useful only if you crit), you auto-confirm crits with that type of weapon (useful only if you threaten), and you can't be disarmed (big whoop). What % chance to crit does a fighter 20 have to crit against a CR 20 opponent? And if you do crit, you're doing 1 extra increment of weapon damage.
Perfect self: you become an outsider, so you're immune to humanoid-specific attacks (of which there are few, so you're basically immune to level 1 charm person and level 5 dominate person), and DR 10/chaotic (which is actually pretty useful).
Mighty Rage: Your raging Str/Con bonus increases by +2 and your raging Will save bonus increases by +1. Wow.
Could the brawler still use a little oomph for its capstone ability? Sure. But capstones really aren't that amazing, they're nice, but not supposed to be overwhelming.
I'd be happy to compare it to Weapon Mastery or Perfect Self.
Weapon Mastery avoids the chance of failing to confirm a crit. That is huuuuuuge. It's even got a scaling benefit the better weapon I use. I also feel your short selling that extra increment of damage that easily translates to another 40 damage on some characters.
Math
11 more average damage
10 from a 30 Str
5 from a +5 Amulet
2 from the Brawling enchantment
4 from Weapon Spec/GWS
I'm sure theres more but an extra 32 damage and auto crits on the awesome 7 attacks I make in a round? That is a done deal. I'd actually be pretty cool with Weapon Mastery.
Perfect Self
Folks have tons of hits points at higher levels and DR has a huge multiplicative effects on enemy creatures. If I have about 300 health at 20th level and something is hitting me for 40 points of damage with 6 attacks, that is 60 damage I'm not taking. Living longer is awesome. Combine that with Crane Style blocking one of those hits and a solid enough AC not to get hit at every time and we're standing strong. My DR only gets canceled out by chaotically aligned attacks which isn't hugely prevalent like the massive CMD's of high end monsters.
I won't talk about Barbarians because they can get DR 10/- and tons of small scaling bonuses that just add more and more up. The fact that the Barbarian has an archetype that trades a few pointless class features for scaling DR equivalent to a capstone is insane, either the capstone is just really lame or the ability was too strong. I'm leaning towards the capstone is lame considering all the other powerful options the Barbarian received.
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Any chance you'll address the bit where Brawler can barely/cannot use Awesome Blow against CR appropriate encounters when he gets it and the gulf doesn't get any better as levels increase? Even at level 20 trying it against a CR 14 monster from the bestiary is pushing one's luck.The above statements are only true if you ignore that the PCs will still be fighting humanoid characters with class levels.
Barbarian 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 36 (42 vs. bull rush, 40 vs. trip)
Fighter 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 41
Monk 20 from NPC Codex: CMD 46 (48 vs. trip)Using the example brawler 20 with +30 CMB, the above numbers range from easy to reasonable.
I ignored nothing. Humanoid enemies that are willing to engage the Brawler in melee are not the problem - indeed, this is essentially the only niche in which melee classes in general shine! But that's a small sub-set of enemies and they might not be appropriate for all campaigns or even take a center stage. What you're essentially saying is that the Brawler only gets to feel like a hero if he's fighting one specific subset of enemies, and throughout his career until that point he can't.
I mean, think about it. Dire animals. Incorporeal undead. Fliers-full-freaking-stop. Ogres and giants, aberrations...the list of enemies that are capable of completely invalidating a Brawler's contributions to the party is long and grows longer with every supplement you add to the mix. And many of them are classical enemies that are supposedly in the Brawler's niche! Why can't this class fight golems? Why does it struggle against fire giants? These are precisely the sorts of enemies that melee should love to see...and yet Brawler quakes in its boots in dread and hopes that the action it spends to swap to a DPS build isn't going to be the wasted action that kills it.
'This class does fine against humanoid enemies' is almost a given. It's everything else I worry about.
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What you're essentially saying is that the Brawler only gets to feel like a hero if he's fighting one specific subset of enemies
And now you're being ridiculous. The brawler doesn't need awesome blow to feel like a hero (otherwise you're saying "the brawler doesn't feel like a hero until 16th level when she first gets awesome blow"). Just... stop.
I won't bother to point out the flaws in the rest of your post because you're just being ridiculous. Making ridiculous statements like "the brawler doesn't get to feel like a hero because its capstone isn't good" and "all these monsters completely invalidate a brawler's contributions to the party" doesn't help anyone.
And now you're being ridiculous. The brawler doesn't need awesome blow to feel like a hero (otherwise you're saying "the brawler doesn't feel like a hero until 16th level when she first gets awesome blow"). Just... stop.
I won't bother to point out the flaws in the rest of your post because you're just being ridiculous. Making ridiculous statements like "the brawler doesn't get to feel like a hero because its capstone isn't good" and "all these monsters completely invalidate a brawler's contributions to the party" doesn't help anyone.
Onto another topic then: are there any plans to allow more uses of Martial Maneuvers per day?
Thinking about that recharge maneuvers idea, and while I'm still not sure it's remotely viable (nor do I have a good idea of how it could be done), it got me to thinking that it might be interesting to have some kind of Teamwork Feat that would allow a Brawler to use his Martial Maneuver to change his active feat in response to an ally's actions; effectively, chaining off his teammate's action. Say the fighter repositions the enemy, the Brawler could then switch up his feat to Improved Trip the guy as his next attack.
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Onto another topic then: are there any plans to allow more uses of Martial Maneuvers per day?
I've made a note of it. As you only get 1/day at level 1, 2, and 3, that's pretty sad.
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It would also be cool if there were a feat that let a brawler copy an ally's combat feat, either X uses per day without expending martial maneuvers, or for extra time, or something.
And of course we'll have an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat to let you get extra uses per day of your class ability.
Both of which are separate from the level 1/2/3 issue at the top of this post.
Onto another topic then: are there any plans to allow more uses of Martial Maneuvers per day?I've made a note of it. As you only get 1/day at level 1, 2, and 3, that's pretty sad.
Thanks! And thanks for responding on the forums: it helps to reinforce the knowledge that the designers are listening.
At the end of the day everyone just wants the classes to be the best they can be; it's just that people can have wildly differing opinions as to what the "best" is.
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Onto another topic then: are there any plans to allow more uses of Martial Maneuvers per day?I've made a note of it. As you only get 1/day at level 1, 2, and 3, that's pretty sad.
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It would also be cool if there were a feat that let a brawler copy an ally's combat feat, either X uses per day without expending martial maneuvers, or for extra time, or something.
And of course we'll have an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat to let you get extra uses per day of your class ability.
Both of which are separate from the level 1/2/3 issue at the top of this post.
What about class features that replicate feats? If I look at a Fighter shooting his longbow, could I copy his "Martial Proficiency (Longbow)"? That would be really bad ass and create synergy with other martials. Ooh! What if copying an ally's feat let you ignore prerequisites for that feat!? That would be totally awesome!
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What about class features that replicate feats? If I look at a Fighter shooting his longbow, could I copy his "Martial Proficiency (Longbow)"? That would be really bad ass and create synergy with other martials. Ooh! What if copying an ally's feat let you ignore prerequisites for that feat!? That would be totally awesome!
That sounds like a good idea for a "Taskmaster" like archetype.
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Taskmaster is a cool cat.
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I always saw the Brawler's Awesome Blow as a "nice-to-have" rather than a core mechanic of the class or anything. (If it was, it would be available long before 16.) I don't think it's intended for smacking giants hither and yon, but rather for playing bowling with mooks. (I could be wrong of course.)
For other combat maneuvers they can get plenty of bonuses to keep up.
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And of course we'll have an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat to let you get extra uses per day of your class ability.
This is a really interesting idea, but please don't make it a feat. It would be a must have, which essentially becomes a feat tax for getting the most out of the class.
Why not include it in Martial Maneuvers as another way to activate the ability.
Something along the lines of-
Photographic Reflexes (ex): If a Brawler observes a Combat feat being used in a fight, they may activate Martial Maneuvers to copy that feat without expending a daily use. The Brawler must otherwise qualify for the observed Combat feat normally.In order to activate Photographic Reflexes, the Brawler must observe a feat being activated or used. A feat such as Dodge would be able to be copied as soon as a the creature possessing the feat was no longer Flat Footed in combat and the Dodge bonus was active. A feat like Greater Trip could not be copied until the creature with the feat successfully tripped someone.
This ability can only be used on creatures the Brawler can perceive. Enemies behind cover, concealed, or invisible to the brawler cannot be copied.
It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that, and would allow them to copy enemy feats as well, which would be interesting.
It would also solve the "times per day" issue by giving Brawlers a tactical and interesting way to use the ability even if they're out of normal daily uses.
I dig the name of that ability Doomed Hero.
I appreciate the suggestion of brawler disciplines, but the brawler already gets 7 bonus combat feats, and bonus combat feats are how you customize individual members of this class.
Well, the suggested discplines that I had put in were to be an alternate method of increasing unarmed strikes (although it included close and monk weapons too, since that's the Brawler's thing).
So really, it isn't meant to carry things just anyone can use, it was meant to increase the Brawler unarmed strike in an alternate way other than "bump damage to 2d10". Things like increasing crit range, or adding what was essentially Weapon Special Features to unarmed strikes (making your unarmed strike a disarming weapon, or a distracting weapon, etc). I'd rather not just give that to everyone, especially if I'm keeping the Brawler at 1d6 20/x2 damage vs the Monk's 2d10 20/x2..
But yeah, I figured that this late in the game you've pretty much settled into how you'll want this class to work.
It was more wishful thinking on my part than anything else.
Doesn't mean I can't use it in my own homebrew. :) The Brawler as-is gives a good chassis for what I'd like; before this I was trying to make something based off a Fighter or Monk archetype, and it never felt right.
If all it takes is two little homebrew tweaks (unarmed damage and an enhanceable unarmed weapon, possibly tweaking monk robes) to get what I was wanting, then I'm quite happy with the class overall.
The beauty of Pen'n'paper gaming, after all.
It would only last a minute? Doesn't really make sense, does it.
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And of course we'll have an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat to let you get extra uses per day of your class ability....
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...What happens if you use Martial Maneuvers to gain Extra Martial Maneuvers?
A good option when you're down to 1 use left? Otherwise I'd assume it removed two uses from you when it was over. Actually it's self correcting but weird.
1 Use left
Use to get Extra 2
When you use MM again you lose the previous feat and therefore can't do it. Or it only gives you one more use since I suppose the ability was activated, but then you'd lose the other usage.
I was kind of hoping that using an ability to gain a feat in order to gain an extra use of the ability you used to gain a feat would make the universe explode, but I suppose your answer is fine too.And of course we'll have an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat to let you get extra uses per day of your class ability....
...
...What happens if you use Martial Maneuvers to gain Extra Martial Maneuvers?
A good option when you're down to 1 use left? Otherwise I'd assume it removed two uses from you when it was over. Actually it's self correcting but weird.
1 Use left
Use to get Extra 2
When you use MM again you lose the previous feat and therefore can't do it. Or it only gives you one more use since I suppose the ability was activated, but then you'd lose the other usage.
Sorry. Try using the bonus feat advanced talent for rogues and get extra Rogue Talent.
Onto another topic then: are there any plans to allow more uses of Martial Maneuvers per day?I've made a note of it. As you only get 1/day at level 1, 2, and 3, that's pretty sad.
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It would also be cool if there were a feat that let a brawler copy an ally's combat feat, either X uses per day without expending martial maneuvers, or for extra time, or something.
And of course we'll have an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat to let you get extra uses per day of your class ability.
Both of which are separate from the level 1/2/3 issue at the top of this post.
I agree this would be cool, but second the idea that it would be even cooler if you could use it on allies or enemies' feats. This actually really fits well with the vision of the class too, as written in the description. Anything that adds to versatility/adaptability in combat would be welcome.
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What you're essentially saying is that the Brawler only gets to feel like a hero if he's fighting one specific subset of enemiesAnd now you're being ridiculous. The brawler doesn't need awesome blow to feel like a hero (otherwise you're saying "the brawler doesn't feel like a hero until 16th level when she first gets awesome blow"). Just... stop.
I won't bother to point out the flaws in the rest of your post because you're just being ridiculous. Making ridiculous statements like "the brawler doesn't get to feel like a hero because its capstone isn't good" and "all these monsters completely invalidate a brawler's contributions to the party" doesn't help anyone.
I'm attempting to have a reasonable discussion, Mr. Reynolds. If you don't agree with what I'm saying then enlighten me as to why. Things may become more clear that way.
The listing of enemies I gave aren't that unusual. Dire animals stand out because they seem like they should be so easy - but they aren't, for the most part because of size and reach. 'Size and reach' is a continued refrain for things like giants, demons, dragons, and the like. Brawlers, like many melee characters, have to first get into position with a turn's worth of effort (with perhaps one attack at the end) and then hope first that they made it there and second that the enemy stays in easy melee reach so that the blow-trading can begin.
In a lot of cases that's just not going to happen. Dire wolves trip and then beat you when you're down. Giants, especially the smarter ones, might trip or they might just take a few steps back, soak the AoO with their hit points and then force you to spend your turn moving to get to them again and again. And that's not talking about other, more unusual classical enemies - wights, shadows, harpies, gargoyles, illusionists, necromancers, foul clerics steeped in demonic lore. All of these and more make mincemeat out of a Brawler unless he either spends all of his wealth specifically to compensate or gets propped up by his party members burning action after action to make up for his problems.
This seems like an issue to me. If it's not an issue to you I'd love to hear why. This is a playtest, yes? These are the sorts of issues my testing is showing.
And as far as the complaints about Awesome Blow, it's also a complaint about Brawler's use of combat maneuvers in general.
sneak attack (even though rogues don't get bonus combat feats)Actually they do if they take Combat Trick. But only once. Point taken, though.
Well, if you want to get pedantic, Rogues get 1 Combat Feat, 1 regular Feat, and if they pick Swashbuckler archetype, they can pick up a 2nd Combat Feat by giving up Trapfinding.
Okay, but you should be comparing improved awesome blow to weapon mastery, or perfect self, or mighty rage.
Weapon mastery: one weapon increases its crit multiplier by 1 (useful only if you crit), you auto-confirm crits with that type of weapon (useful only if you threaten), and you can't be disarmed (big whoop). What % chance to crit does a fighter 20 have to crit against a CR 20 opponent? And if you do crit, you're doing 1 extra increment of weapon damage.
Perfect self: you become an outsider, so you're immune to humanoid-specific attacks (of which there are few, so you're basically immune to level 1 charm person and level 5 dominate person), and DR 10/chaotic (which is actually pretty useful).
Mighty Rage: Your raging Str/Con bonus increases by +2 and your raging Will save bonus increases by +1. Wow.
Could the brawler still use a little oomph for its capstone ability? Sure. But capstones really aren't that amazing, they're nice, but not supposed to be overwhelming.
I feel you are severely underselling Weapon Mastery. I can't speak for all fighters, but I've got a huge 'thing' about the Falchion, so I'm going to look at that... With one no-brainer feat, my range is 15-20 to crit... Which means 30% of all my attacks with Weapon mastery auto-crit for 1.5x the damage my crits did before. While I admit some fighters use different weapons, having 30% of all your attacks do x3 damage (as opposed to, against a foe you hit on a 10, 15% of your attacks do x2 damage) is a massive boost to output.
Monk gains DR 10. I'm going to say 90% of enemies just plain won't have a way to handle DR/Chaotic and so you're going to be taking 10 less damage from every attack always forever.
Mighty Rage is an effectively always on +1 to attack and +1.5 to damage, 20 temp HP, and +1 to will saves. It's not spectacular, but it's a rider to your other abilities, meaning you can combine it with everything else.
And I think THAT'S the real problem with Awesome Blow as a capstone.
Arcanist's capstone lets him get +2 to CL and DC of a spell. Bloodrager gets a quickened spell on top of its rage abilities. Investigator gets an extra 1d6 to things. Shaman gets all sorts of cool options. Skald improves its song. Swashbuckler gets what Fighter gets. Warpriest gets DR 10/-, which looks like it might be a standard action and thus not actually great, but I haven't really looked at Warpriest.
Finally, Slayer gets a save-or-die, which is just head and shoulders above what Brawler gets.
The issue with the Brawler's capstone isn't that it never does anything, but that it's a separate attack form that will almost never be as good as going for a Trip and then wailing on your opponent with a full attack- because even though you CAN awesome blow in a full attack, if it works it ends your full attack on that target.
Assume for a moment our Brawler has Greater Trip. I don't think this is too much to assume. His class is actively built for it. On his first attack, he trips the target (their CMD is +4 if they have extra legs, rather than +5 per size category, and the Brawler gets +4 for greater trip, then upwards of +5 for a magic weapon and another +5 for maneuver training.) They land prone in front of him, he gets his bonus attack from Greater Trip, and then he proceeds to finish his full attack, with a +4 bonus for attacking a prone target. His AoO deals as much damage as awesome blow would, minus 1d6 for the target not hitting a wall, but then he gets +4 to hit on each of the following attacks.
Now, I think Awesome Blow is cool, but I feel like it'd be foolish for a Brawler to not take Greater Trip, and the idea of /not/ wanting to be as close to possible as a foe on a Brawler seems wrong... But there is Bull Rush if you need to move people, which you can, once again, get a +4 on from Greater Bull Rush and some points from maneuver training.
Here's my suggestion for Awesome Blow:
"Awesome Blow (Ex): When the Brawler performs a successful Bull Rush, the opponent takes damage as though the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed strike. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent's move on a bull rush, the opponent and the obstacle each take that damage. The Brawler may choose not to move with the opponent, in which case the opponent falls prone at the end of his movement."
"Improved Awesome Blow: At 20th level, the brawler may perform Bull Rush maneuvers as attack actions rather than as standard actions, and motion made as part of a Bull Rush is not counted against the Brawler's movement for the turn. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent's move, the opponent and the obstacle each take double the damage."
Still functionally very similar, but now it works on one of your pre-existing combat maneuvers rather than being one of its own, and it now allows you to literally punch enemies through walls (and knock them prone) or tackle them through walls (which doesn't knock them prone but allows you to continue your full attack.)
And of course we'll have an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat to let you get extra uses per day of your class ability....
...
...What happens if you use Martial Maneuvers to gain Extra Martial Maneuvers?
You divide by zero and explode.
...What happens if you use Martial Maneuvers to gain Extra Martial Maneuvers?
That won't be an option if Extra Martial Maneuvers isn't a combat feat (and as the other Extra [class ability] feats aren't combat feats, it makes sense that Extra Martial Maneuvers wouldn't be).
I'm attempting to have a reasonable discussion, Mr. Reynolds. If you don't agree with what I'm saying then enlighten me as to why. Things may become more clear that way.
You're not attempting to have a reasonable discussion, you're engaging in hyperbole. Go back and look at what you said.
I feel you are severely underselling Weapon Mastery.
I've already agreed that awesome blow needs more oomph. I'm not saying weapon mastery is crap, I'm saying it's not über.
I'm attempting to have a reasonable discussion, Mr. Reynolds. If you don't agree with what I'm saying then enlighten me as to why. Things may become more clear that way.
The listing of enemies I gave aren't that unusual. Dire animals stand out because they seem like they should be so easy - but they aren't, for the most part because of size and reach. 'Size and reach' is a continued refrain for things like giants, demons, dragons, and the like. Brawlers, like many melee characters, have to first get into position with a turn's worth of effort (with perhaps one attack at the end) and then hope first that they made it there and second that the enemy stays in easy melee reach so that the blow-trading can begin.
In a lot of cases that's just not going to happen. Dire wolves trip and then beat you when you're down. Giants, especially the smarter ones, might trip or they might just take a few steps back, soak the AoO with their hit points and then force you to spend your turn moving to get to them again and again. And that's not talking about other, more unusual classical enemies - wights, shadows, harpies, gargoyles, illusionists, necromancers, foul clerics steeped in demonic lore. All of these and more make mincemeat out of a Brawler unless he either spends...
What you're arguing here is more a complaint about all non-magical melee classes. While you may have some valid points I doubt you're going to get much traction with it in the Brawler discussion thread.
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Oh! Oh!
I hereby propose that everytime a brawler sucessfully uses his Knockout ability, L L Cool J music plays.
-j
Dire wolves trip and then beat you when you're down.
..
Giants, especially the smarter ones, might trip or they might just take a few steps back, soak the AoO with their hit points and then force you to spend your turn moving to get to them again and again.
..
And that's not talking about other, more unusual classical enemies - wights, shadows, harpies, gargoyles, illusionists, necromancers, foul clerics steeped in demonic lore.
Something that may be overlooked in your critique here is martial maneuvers. This gives him a bit of versatility in response to what he faces.
If he's facing a wolf, then it behooves him to use maneuvers to boost his trip defense (at low levels, dodge and improved trip increase the CMD a little), or just negate that one attack (style feats are combat feats, crane style being a very good one).
Creatures with reach that keep moving away can be a reason to burn a maneuvers use for something like Step Up and Strike line. Follow them as they move, hitting them, and still being in a position to full attack, potentially (this of course depends on the room they have on the battlefield). Or if you are getting a single attack in anyways, then Vital Strike it, at the very least.
Spellcasters can be hit hard with things like Spellbreaker, or better yet, Dazing/Stunning Assault (since it's a fort save).
Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike just eats through any DR that you might not penetrate normally.
Flying/ranged opponents will mean grabbing some ranged combat feats and picking up a ranged weapon (shuriken are monk weapons, and crossbows are on the simple weapon list), or getting some means of flight/teleport. But this is no different than a Fighter would need now anyways. The Brawler can pick up Wind stance and get a bit of concealment from ranged combatants too (which I think helps against ranged touch attacks from spellcasters, does it not?).
"The *Brawler* isn't exactly the best at ranged combat" doesn't sound thematically out of lnie, and at the highest levels, they'll be doing the same things a Melee Focused Fighter will be doing (backup ranged weapon or maybe some kind of limited flight in a magic item/friend).