What about instead of spells they do spell-like abilities, similar to the warlock or dragon shaman in 3.5?
It would keep the design of the sorcerer's innate magic
Spell like abilities don't provoke attack of opportunity so the barbarian side can still whack things
dc scales better
The self nuking thing works since you can implement quicken spell like abilities
Gives the BR something to set it apart from other Gish characters
might be cool.
What about instead of spells they do spell-like abilities, similar to the warlock or dragon shaman in 3.5?
It would keep the design of the sorcerer's innate magic
Spell like abilities don't provoke attack of opportunity so the barbarian side can still whack things
dc scales better
The self nuking thing works since you can implement quicken spell like abilities
Gives the BR something to set it apart from other Gish characters
Unfortunately this won't actually change much. Spell-like abilities still provoke AOOs and DCs are still based on the spell level. Granted, we may get higher level spells, but I don't think it would be that much of a higher level.
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You can mark me as one of the fellas who still thinks the Magus List was fine. I'm also a big proponent of the Bloodline spells being early entry spells. I think thats a pretty flavorful nice way of giving Bloodragers their spell casting umph everyone is clamoring for despite, yknow, being the only 4 level caster with full caster level. I'm also a big fan of just giving them the Wizard/Sorc list and letting them have access to that exhaustive list.
I am...pretty sad about everyone thinking this class steps all over the Barbarian's toes. The Barbarian has tons of stuff going for it over the Bloodrager. The Bloodrager's only thing going for it are spells that let it burst it's potential for one or two encounters a day. With the recent update, it bursts it's potential faster. *Some* Bloodline Powers are...comparable to *some* high end Rage Powers. But then the Barbarian can still have *more* good Rage Powers.
I'm also disappointed that anyone wants the class to have built in options that attempt to put the DCs on a level with full casters. Like that makes absolutely any sense at all. Yar! I have Full BAB, full Caster Level and formidable save dcs! And I can Rage! Why play anything else ever again heh? Its especially frustrating when these options are already built into the game. You want better save dcs? You take them like everyone else. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus.
My opinion is this class shouldn't be nearly as good at casting as it is at hitting stuff. Giving it more and more options to cast in combat is going to blur that line. If you want to be good at casting, you should sacrifice something to get there. In my opinion, a couple of feats.
You can always take your bonus spells earlier, then retrain them out when you get the actual bonus spell.
Many of the "activate upon bloodrage" abilities are spell-like (such as arcane bloodrage from the Arcane bloodline). Does that mean they provoke attacks of opportunity when you go into a bloodrage? Perhaps it should be extraordinary, like Greater Arcane Bloodrage?
You can always take your bonus spells earlier, then retrain them out when you get the actual bonus spell.
Many of the "activate upon bloodrage" abilities are spell-like (such as arcane bloodrage from the Arcane bloodline). Does that mean they provoke attacks of opportunity when you go into a bloodrage? Perhaps it should be extraordinary, like Greater Arcane Bloodrage?
O.o They kept the tags Extraordinary? Everything still falls apart in an antimagic field since Bloodrage is Supernatural.
Hrm.
Probably.
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You can mark me as one of the fellas who still thinks the Magus List was fine. I'm also a big proponent of the Bloodline spells being early entry spells. I think thats a pretty flavorful nice way of giving Bloodragers their spell casting umph everyone is clamoring for despite, yknow, being the only 4 level caster with full caster level. I'm also a big fan of just giving them the Wizard/Sorc list and letting them have access to that exhaustive list.
I am...pretty sad about everyone thinking this class steps all over the Barbarian's toes. The Barbarian has tons of stuff going for it over the Bloodrager. The Bloodrager's only thing going for it are spells that let it burst it's potential for one or two encounters a day. With the recent update, it bursts it's potential faster. *Some* Bloodline Powers are...comparable to *some* high end Rage Powers. But then the Barbarian can still have *more* good Rage Powers.
I'm also disappointed that anyone wants the class to have built in options that attempt to put the DCs on a level with full casters. Like that makes absolutely any sense at all. Yar! I have Full BAB, full Caster Level and formidable save dcs! And I can Rage! Why play anything else ever again heh? Its especially frustrating when these options are already built into the game. You want better save dcs? You take them like everyone else. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus.
My opinion is this class shouldn't be nearly as good at casting as it is at hitting stuff. Giving it more and more options to cast in combat is going to blur that line. If you want to be good at casting, you should sacrifice something to get there. In my opinion, a couple of feats.
I agree with scavion for the most part, though i'm still on the fence about the DCs comment. even with the feats you'll still be 2-5 lower than whatever anyone else is slinging about, which can mean the difference of having the spell be POSSIBLE to use or just swinging because they're going to resist/save from it with no problems anyway.
then again, I still havent actually taken a hard look at the numbers here, and as has been shown to me before, even with the lower DCs your spells can still be respectable (the example given was with black tentacles, which has since been removed from the spell list in a cruel twist of fate--well, for anyone not an aberrant bloodline BR, at level 16)
but yeah, the freakishly late bonus spells-that-you've-had-available-for-a-while is kinda dumb.
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Did someone despair against the bonus feat lists? They look awesome to me. Nearly every one has some real staples.
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You can mark me as one of the fellas who still thinks the Magus List was fine. I'm also a big proponent of the Bloodline spells being early entry spells. I think thats a pretty flavorful nice way of giving Bloodragers their spell casting umph everyone is clamoring for despite, yknow, being the only 4 level caster with full caster level. I'm also a big fan of just giving them the Wizard/Sorc list and letting them have access to that exhaustive list.
I am...pretty sad about everyone thinking this class steps all over the Barbarian's toes. The Barbarian has tons of stuff going for it over the Bloodrager. The Bloodrager's only thing going for it are spells that let it burst it's potential for one or two encounters a day. With the recent update, it bursts it's potential faster. *Some* Bloodline Powers are...comparable to *some* high end Rage Powers. But then the Barbarian can still have *more* good Rage Powers.
I'm also disappointed that anyone wants the class to have built in options that attempt to put the DCs on a level with full casters. Like that makes absolutely any sense at all. Yar! I have Full BAB, full Caster Level and formidable save dcs! And I can Rage! Why play anything else ever again heh? Its especially frustrating when these options are already built into the game. You want better save dcs? You take them like everyone else. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus.
They don't have higher slots and their charisma will be low. Their DCs will completely suck unless they get a boost.
The idea that somehow their level 1-4 spells are going to be even remotely as good as level 5-7, let alone 8 and 9 just with higher DCs is completely laughable. By the time they get their magic, it could get a notable boost without them remotely overshadowing a dedicated caster, or even a half-caster like the Summoner.
Bear in mind, we're talking about a class that can use their highest level slot to make a 15d6 fireball at level 16+ (or whenever they get 4th level...
Blasting takes huge investment from even a full caster to be viable. You want the Bloodrager to be a viable blaster as a full caster trying his hardest. It takes careful metamagic, feat, and class specialization. Just...No.
Casting a Fireball at 10th level with Spell Focus and GSF with a 16 Charisma puts the DC at 18. 10d6 damage dealt in an area. Average of 35 damage against multiple targets. For a creature with a Bad Reflex save thats a 50/50 chance.
Casting a Fireball at 10th level with Spell Focus and GSF with a 16 Charisma puts the DC at 18. 10d6 damage dealt in an area. Average of 35 damage against multiple targets. For a creature with a Bad Reflex save thats a 50/50 chance.
for a creature with a bad reflex. what of everything above that? at level ten you're better off simply reaching over and stabbing the guy than casting the fireball at all.
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Blasting takes huge investment from even a full caster to be viable. You want the Bloodrager to be a viable blaster as a full caster trying his hardest. It takes careful metamagic, feat, and class specialization. Just...No.
Casting a Fireball at 10th level with Spell Focus and GSF with a 16 Charisma puts the DC at 18. 10d6 damage dealt in an area. Average of 35 damage against multiple targets. For a creature with a Bad Reflex save thats a 50/50 chance.
I believe I just showed that no matter the investment, they'll suck at it. You've just shown the same thing! Even if they fail the save, it is BAD blasting damage, and they spent resources on a 16 charisma and two feats for that? WHY?
Might as well give them some abilities so they can be marginally useful at blasting as it fits the class's theme. Again, end-result is marginal usefulness.
It's that or get rid of the whole "rageful magic" schtick and all blasting spells. Change it to "Sir Buffs-self-alot".
Because the damage is better when there are multiple targets. I can't hit a swarm with my sword. The Creature is vulnerable to fire and therefore takes a save penalty and more damage. Blasting spells were already highly situational.
AoE should be used when there are multiple enemies. When there are multiple enemies you get a lot more mileage out of it.
You get ONE spell at 10th level, two if you have a 16 charisma. Do you spend it on a blast spell for one encounter or a buff that may last you multiple?
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Casting a Fireball at 10th level with Spell Focus and GSF with a 16 Charisma puts the DC at 18. 10d6 damage dealt in an area. Average of 35 damage against multiple targets. For a creature with a Bad Reflex save thats a 50/50 chance.for a creature with a bad reflex. what of everything above that? at level ten you're better off simply reaching over and stabbing the guy than casting the fireball at all.
If you read my stance, that is exactly what you should do. Most of the time if there is only a single enemy, you should be stabbing. Fireball is only useful against multiple enemies without EXTENSIVE help.
I'd like to expand a bit on a thought I mentioned earlier:
Have the 'standardized' Bloodrager spell list only offer 3-5 spell choices per level. These should be generalized spells that would be useful to the class as a whole - things like Shield and Bull's Strength - and should contain the majority of their buff spells.
Then have the bulk of their spell list dependent on their bloodline. There is already one bonus spell at each level associated with the bloodline. It should not be terribly difficult to go through and find another 4-6 spells at each level that are thematically appropriate for the bloodline but that are unique from the 'general' spell list available to the class.
Then have any spells that are granted by their bloodline have a save DC effectively based on their full Bloodrager level, while the 'general' spells still use their CL.
Thus, each Bloodrager has a very different and important 'feel' to them based on their bloodline (since the bulk of their spell arsenal is tied directly to the thematic source of their casting power), and also makes those bloodline spells useful in the sense that they will be less likely to be avoided.
Xaratherus, one issue with that is the Bloodrager has Caster Level = Class level.
Xaratherus, one issue with that is the Bloodrager has Caster Level = Class level.
For some reason I thought he used a reduced CL like other delayed casters, my bad.
In that case, grant him a bonus to save DCs and SR checks for spells derived from his bloodline - perhaps grant him a bonus equal to his STR or CON modifier on those rolls\DCs (to indicate that while he's raging he's most closely in touch with his bloodline). I'd be willing to give up the Fast Movement and base DR from the Barbarian for that purpose.
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While I agree that the BR needs its own customized spell list instead of just a spell list what draws me to this class is the fact that it's a Barbarian with Bloodlines.
What I suggest is swapping out UD and IUD for Evasion.
Make the Blood Sanctuary power increase over time.
And maybe give them a boost if they target themselves with their own offensive spells, say Maximised Fireball when centered onself, Id be perfectly fine with switching out DR for something like this.
The point is an actual blaster is going to be doing at least twice as much damage with their blasting spells with much higher DCs -- about the level needed to be worthwhile. The Bloodrager will never manage that.
Are you making my argument for me now? Yeah, if they get one spell at 10th IF they have 16 charisma, that's all the more reason why they either should not have blasting spells or they shouldn't be total crap.
Personally, I think the spells should be on the list, for those who really want that option, but buff spells are almost always going to be better because that was how the game was built. What do you want?
I like Rysky's suggestions. While I dislike his last one, I can live with it.
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The point is an actual blaster is going to be doing at least twice as much damage with their blasting spells with much higher DCs -- about the level needed to be worthwhile. The Bloodrager will never manage that.
Are you making my argument for me now? Yeah, if they get one spell at 10th IF they have 16 charisma, that's all the more reason why they either should not have blasting spells or they shouldn't be total crap.
Personally, I think the spells should be on the list, for those who really want that option, but buff spells are almost always going to be better because that was how the game was built. What do you want?
I like Rysky's suggestions. While I dislike his last one, I can live with it.
Thanks, while the last one is a little out there I was just trying to play off Blood Sanctuary, you could even change the spell to be touch and it would work nice. That way (say Fireball) would go for the other persons AC instead of a reflex save, which as a Full BAB class it would be very good at hitting.
Thanks, while the last one is a little out there I was just trying to play off Blood Sanctuary, you could even change the spell to be touch and it would work nice. That way (say Fireball) would go for the other persons AC instead of a reflex save, which as a Full BAB class it would be very good at hitting.The point is an actual blaster is going to be doing at least twice as much damage with their blasting spells with much higher DCs -- about the level needed to be worthwhile. The Bloodrager will never manage that.
Are you making my argument for me now? Yeah, if they get one spell at 10th IF they have 16 charisma, that's all the more reason why they either should not have blasting spells or they shouldn't be total crap.
Personally, I think the spells should be on the list, for those who really want that option, but buff spells are almost always going to be better because that was how the game was built. What do you want?
I like Rysky's suggestions. While I dislike his last one, I can live with it.
See now thats a cool ability. Removing the reflex save and targeting touch instead would be mega awesome. How would you fluff it though?
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See now thats a cool ability. Removing the reflex save and targeting touch instead would be mega awesome. How would you fluff it though?Thanks, while the last one is a little out there I was just trying to play off Blood Sanctuary, you could even change the spell to be touch and it would work nice. That way (say Fireball) would go for the other persons AC instead of a reflex save, which as a Full BAB class it would be very good at hitting.The point is an actual blaster is going to be doing at least twice as much damage with their blasting spells with much higher DCs -- about the level needed to be worthwhile. The Bloodrager will never manage that.
Are you making my argument for me now? Yeah, if they get one spell at 10th IF they have 16 charisma, that's all the more reason why they either should not have blasting spells or they shouldn't be total crap.
Personally, I think the spells should be on the list, for those who really want that option, but buff spells are almost always going to be better because that was how the game was built. What do you want?
I like Rysky's suggestions. While I dislike his last one, I can live with it.
A sorcerer's magic is innate but they are able to craft it into spells. A Bloodrager on the other hand can just expell it in force. Basically they skipped a step in The magic making proccess.
Normal casters: 1. Power 2. Craft 3. Boom.
Bloodragers: 1. Power 3. Profit!
Does anyone else think that the bloodrager could get away with double caster level and automatic heightened with damaging spells while bloodraging?
Does anyone else think that the bloodrager could get away with double caster level and automatic heightened with damaging spells while bloodraging?
Uh. I don't think so. Not to mention all the hard caps on damage spells without intensify spell.
Big numbers have a value all their own, even if their effect is over-kill and wasting/overlapping with other abilities.
I'm with Quandary.
3d8+30... vs a goblin. That's a really big number... and 2d8 would have killed the goblin anyway.
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It seems to me that the design team had a compelling mechanical reason to combine barbarian with sorcerer. The idea of a class that uses rage as a vehicle to unlock its bloodline is actually really cool. It also opens the doors for a few things people have long wanted, namely a class that can cast while it rages and an arcane caster with the ranger's basic framework. This is all on top of the fact that the design of the magus went over so well and the barbarian and sorcerer have each respectively always felt like the more primal versions of the magus parent classes, the fighter and the wizard. So, what went wrong?
1) The concept has a lot going for it, and is clearly very resonant with a lot of people. The problem is that, while rage-emergent bloodlines are really cool, being able to cast while raging isn't very interesting unless there's a reason to cast while raging. Right now raging only benefits hitting things, so it almost always seems like the right decision to drop out of rage to cast because casting precludes hitting things. Why waste the range rounds?
2) Further, what spell are you going to be casting that's going to be a better use of your actions than just hitting more things (especially if you're already raging)? Bloodragers get most spells at well past relevant levels, but their plain old face-beating damage scales much like a barbarian's (which is to say it scales well).
3) The spell list doesn't (and didn't) feel right for the class as it's written, but it isn't really clear what spell list would feel right. The class has its roots in sorcerer, so it feels like it should have some overlap with popular sorcerer strategies. Unfortunately the bloodrager is best when it's beating face and that aligns rather poorly with most sorcerer strategies. Other full BAB casters get access to swift action spells and early entry spells, which both seem to fit the stunted progression and split focus of such a class, but early entry for spells is actually at its most dangerous when those spells are being reduced to third or fourth level. Those are the levels that qualify spells for potion and wand adaptation, respectively, so it stands to reason that any spell that suddenly gets permission to exist in potion or wand form needs to be considered very, very carefully. If giant form I gets reduced to a 4th-level spell for bloodragers, we have to be okay with living in a world where wands of giant form I exist. If we want greater infernal healing to be a 3rd-level bloodrager spell, we have to accept the existence of greater infernal healing potions.
4) Many people seem to be worried that the bloodrager is stepping rather heavily on the barbarian's toes. On paper, it sure looks like it could. Granted, there are some incredible rage powers and barbarians certainly get more of those than bloodragers get bloodrage powers, but with the addition of spells and other minor additions to the class, it's hard to argue that the bloodrager is getting a greater quantity of abilities overall. Unfortunately, in practice the whole of these additions is much smaller than the sum of its parts, but the sheer volume of abilities lifted from the barbarian is still cause for valid complaint.
5) The last bloodrager thread seemed to go back and forth between those who wanted the bloodrager to feel more like the primal magus and those who wanted it to feel more like the arcane ranger/paladin. This is tricky because neither description neatly unpacks its definition for you, but the truth is the bloodrager should really strive to be both. The nature of arcane magic is very different than that of divine. Divine dabbles in the offensive and arcane in the defensive, but at their core arcane casters seek to destroy and divine casters seek to preserve or create. Between the awkward fit of most spell lists and the total lack of incentive to cast spells, especially when in rage (despite rage-casting being, on its face, one of the most promising advances of this class), it should be clear that the two plans of face-beating and spell-slinging need to be more unified. We should look to both the paladin and the magus for help.
To unlock the bloodrager's true potential and make it the cohesive and interesting class we all want it to be, the above five problems need to be solved. The good news is that there seem to be very simple solutions that solve more than one of the above. I would guess this class came to exist because a few dominos were lined up correctly. Somewhere along the line a few dominos got lost, but once they're found and replaced, this class should click perfectly.
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Well, it does seem that all five of the problems I see with the bloodrager could be solved by dumping some of the "extra" barbarian abilities for a mechanic that allowed you to, in some way, quicken spells. That mechanic would need to feature a meaningful expenditure of resources or setup time, or have a drawback, but a lot of good suggestions have already been made by myself and others. To recap a few off the top of my head:
Rage Points: This would be a mechanic that lets you accrue points from a starting pool of 0 by doing martial things, and then either allows you to 1) expend those points to add metamagic feats you know to spells without increasing the spell level (maybe expending points equal to the normal modified level of the spell); or 2) expend those points to quicken spells (expending points equal to the spell level). The trigger could be entering rage, or it could be confirming crits, or it could be reducing a creature to below 0 hit points. And it's more or less irrelevant whether the ability just allows you to quicken or allows you to add metamagic feats you know. Some variation on this ability feels very bloodrager, allowing you to concentrate on basic face-beating early in the day while working your way up to an arcane fury.
Rage Metamagic: This mechanic would simply allow you to trade rounds of rage in place of increasing the spell level when applying metamagic feats. It feels a little less thematic, but there's no doubt it's making your rage relevant to your casting and it creates an interesting resource management tension.
Rage Contingency: This mechanic would allow you to cast spells earlier in the day with the contingency that they would trigger upon entering rage. Maybe this would increase the casting time to 10 minutes, or you'd have to cast them an hour before your rage for them to work. In practice this ends up working a lot like the changes recently made to Greater Bloodrage, etc., but has the interesting caveats of forcing you to use your resources and choose what spell to cast before you know what you'll be fighting and of allowing you to cast any spell going into your rage, not just buffs.
Explosive Anger: This mechanic allows you to quicken any spell that includes yourself in its area of effect, making it essentially feel like the spells are exploding outward from you, almost casting themselves as a byproduct of your anger. This mechanic might work best if it only worked while you were raging (further limiting it a bit and feeling more thematic). This is a niche no other class has dared to fill, and feels perfect for the bloodrager.
Any of the above could replace Uncanny Dodge (and co.) and go a long, long way toward making this class feel more cohesive.
As for the spell list, there's a couple of considerate steps that could be taken toward building it from the ground up without risking the potion/wand issues. First of all, look to spells that have already been made early entry spells (especially for the summoner). Just at a quick glance that opens up the following to early entry on the bloodrager list without affecting anything else in the game negatively:
baleful polymorph
black tentacles
control summoned creature
daze monster
dimension door
dimensional anchor
dismissal
fire shield
ghost wolf
greater invisibility
haste
heroism
hold monster
hostile juxtaposition
overland flight
phantom steed
resilient reservoir
slow
stoneskin
teleport
vomit twin
wall of fire
wall of ice
wall of stone
warding weapon
wind wall
Many of these are fantastic, commonly used sorcerer spells that would feel really, really in-theme for the bloodrager, especially at a spell level lower than the sorcerer gets them. And all of these have already crossed the wand/potion barrier by being lower level on at least one other caster's spell list.
After those, the next thing to look at would be (especially 4th level) sorcerer spells with a personal range, since those wouldn't become eligible for potion use even with a lower spell level. That opens the following as possibilities:
elemental body I and II
greater false life
monstrous physique I, II, and III
shadow projection
shocking image
vitriolic mist
Dropping these a level wouldn't affect potions, but would mean 4th level wizard wands could now be 3rd level bloodrager wands, bought for 15,750gp instead of 21,000gp. None of these effects seem likely to be good enough on such an expensive wand that the price break will matter, though.
Finally, the list could benefit from some swift and immediate spells. This yielded the fewest results for me, searching only through the sorcerer spell list:
liberating command
stone shield
windy escape
I think with many of the above, we're well on our way to a meaningful reason for the bloodrager to have its own spell list without damaging the magic item economy.
1) The concept has a lot going for it, and is clearly very resonant with a lot of people. The problem is that, while rage-emergent bloodlines are really cool, being able to cast while raging isn't very interesting unless there's a reason to cast while raging...
2) Further, what spell are you going to be casting that's going to be a better use of your actions than just hitting more things (especially if you're already raging)? ...
3) The spell list doesn't (and didn't) feel right for the class as it's written, but it isn't really clear what spell list would feel right. The class has its roots in sorcerer, so it feels like it should have some overlap with popular sorcerer strategies. Unfortunately the bloodrager is best when it's beating face and that aligns rather poorly with most sorcerer strategies...
Sounds like a great rationale to include the full Sorceror list for UTILITY spells that will be cast outside of combat or as pre-combat buffs.
Other full BAB casters get access to swift action spells and early entry spells, which both seem to fit the stunted progression and split focus of such a class, but early entry for spells is actually at its most dangerous when those spells are being reduced to third or fourth level. Those are the levels that qualify spells for potion and wand adaptation, respectively, so it stands to reason that any spell that suddenly gets permission to exist in potion or wand form needs to be considered very, very carefully. If giant form I gets reduced to a 4th-level spell for bloodragers, we have to be okay with living in a world where wands of giant form I exist. If we want greater infernal healing to be a 3rd-level bloodrager spell, we have to accept the existence of greater infernal healing potions.
Sure, and that's something that other 1/2 caster class design already deals with.
Although if for some reason THIS class is especially problematic in that regard, I see a simple solution:Simply state that Bloodrager Spells can't be made into spell trigger/completion items.
Bloodragers are still free to use Wands/Scrolls of spells on their list made by other classes.
(as long as it is also the same arcane/divine type for scrolls, wands don't care)
Not really sure that is a major problem, more so than for other similar classes...
The idea of spells that include you being quickened would at least give some sense to blood sanctuary.
Rather than try to make a 1/2 caster Full BAB Arcane Magus, I don't think enabling Full Attack + Casting needs to be the focus of this class. Paladins and Rangers don't need that to make use of their spells, and neither does Bloodrager. That does mean more utility and buff spells than the current list has.
If anything I would prefer alternate approaches to spellcasting action modification, like Crit triggered casting, or enemy death triggered Casting. Move Action casting might even be interesting, precluding Full Attacks (for the most part, albeit there are ways to get bonus Move Actions) but allowing Standard Attack stuff. But again, I'm not super sold on the great need to pull off casting action acceleration/combining casting with attaking/full attacking in the same round... Other approaches to spell modification seem more interesting, like other Metamagics (extend, enlarge, elemental, etc) or unique (non-Metamagic) approaches to modifying spell mechanics.
I'm not sure of the exact balance currently but alot of responces just seem to ignore the true power of Rage Powers, particularly Barb Level Pre-Req (or Scaling) Rage Power. So I can't take seriously responces that don't acknowledge the importance there.
OK, I withdraw Crit-triggered casting from consideration. There's just nowhere to go once you have 2-20 Crit Range... ;-)
A spell-storing weapon type mechanic might be workable, along with the enemy-death triggered casting approach.
Personally, while I'm fine including blast/attack spells as options, I think the buff/utility aspect is just as central.
OK, I withdraw Crit-triggered casting from consideration. There's just nowhere to go once you have 2-20 Crit Range... ;-)
A spell-storing weapon type mechanic might be workable, along with the enemy-death triggered casting approach.
Personally, while I'm fine including blast/attack spells as options, I think the buff/utility aspect is just as central.
I think a spell-storing mechanic has some merit. I'd be interested in seeing that fleshed out somehow.
More than early entry I think the bloodrager needs some direct boosting.
A DC should be 10 + 1/2 level + prime stat to be competitive. The bloodrager has less than 10 + 1/3 level + tertiary stat.
The way spells work the bloodrager is way behind on both spell levels and casting from a secondary if not tertiary stat. You could add 1/2 your level to your spell DCs while raging and still not match a sorcerer with a typical stat array.
Sorcerer elite array has 17 starting cha easily as a human, half-human, halfling, or gnome. Bloodrager will settle for 13 with his highest stats in strength and con. There is no core race that has a fixed +cha without -str so he will be at least half human and put his +2 into str. The bloodrager will put his 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 HD stat boosts in his physical stats.
At level 5 the bloodrager's DC will be 12. The sorcerer's will be 16. Bloodrager +1/2 level would be 14.
At level 7 the bloodrager will probably have a headband and DC 14. The sorcerer will definitely have a headband and DC 19. Bloodrager +1/2 level would be 18.
At level 10 the bloodrager probably won't have upgraded his headband because he needs weapons and armor and physical stat boosts. His DC is probably 15. The Sorcerer probably has upgraded his headband for DC 21. Bloodrager +1/2 level would be 20.
At level 13 the bloodrager probably has boosted his headband for DC 17. The sorcerer let's say is still at a +4 headband and DC 23. Bloodrager +1/2 level would be 23.
Way up at level 20 everyone has +6 headbands and +5 inherent bonuses if they want them and the bloodrager's DC is 21. The sorcerer's at 30. The bloodrager +1/2 level would be 31.
The bloodrager can do better than that, but so can the sorcerer. The gap is huge and if it's not bridged the bloodrager can't effectively use anything with a saving throw.
As much as I despise them, Aasimar have options for Str and Cha and are in the Core Line.
Does anyone else think that the bloodrager could get away with double caster level and automatic heightened with damaging spells while bloodraging?Uh. I don't think so. Not to mention all the hard caps on damage spells without intensify spell.
whoops, i meant intensify.
whoops, i meant intensify.Does anyone else think that the bloodrager could get away with double caster level and automatic heightened with damaging spells while bloodraging?Uh. I don't think so. Not to mention all the hard caps on damage spells without intensify spell.
Dragon's Breath and Detonate would be the only spells that really benefit from that. And then after 8th level your caster levels are meaningless.
If there is a desire for more offensive spells/effects with DC, possibly take a cue from Rage Prophet and allow stacking CON bonus on top of CHA, which counters the MAD and lower spell levels alot. Perhaps not as across the board thing (like Rage Prophet while Raging) but with limited usages where it counts... maybe as one possible usage of a CHA based pool also usable for other things? I don't think the class needs too much power up per se, as much enabling a range of play styles etc.
My thought when reading the class was, with as weak as its spellcasting is, does it need a class spell list?
If it could add spells directly to its list of Spells Known from Sorcerer/Wizard, Magus, and Summoner (piggybacking off of the early entry out there, and giving it access to some of the more diverse sorcerer wizard spells for concepts that include things like Charm Person or Suggestion or such), is there anything that it could cast that would be OP?
As a cost, I dont necessarily know that the class needs access to Spell-Completion/Trigger items. Their action cost is clunky, they dont really fit with raging/intuitive casting, and I dont know that they help the class a whole lot... and these days, its not like most parties will lack for people who can use most wands.
The limited number of spells known and castable per day makes me feel like this wouldn't be super OP, and it would certainly add a bit to character diversity.
I have one question about blood sanctuary: If an ally is charmed/mind controlled and casts an harmful spell on the party, does the bonus apply or is he not considered an ally while controlled?