Ilja wrote: If we assume the fireball-caster is dead and this is a completely new caster, the ball lightnings might prove effective, otherwise their save DC and the caster level check vs spell resistance will be too low (as spell perfection is in Fireball). A Spell Perfection on Ball Lightning from an Arcane bloodline Sorcerer will have the following stats:
SR Penetration:
Level
+4 (greater spell penetration)
+4 (doubling from spell perfection)
+1 (ioun stone)
+4 (otherworldly kimono)
That is +31 for a level 18 caster so only failing on a 1. Adding Varisian Tattoo or making the caster Level 20 makes it an auto pass.
Spell DC is likely to be:
10
+12 or 13 (Cha34 at 18, 36 at 20)
+2 Greater Spell Focus
+2 (doubling from spell perfection)
+2 (School Power Bloodline Ability)
+1 (Arcane Bloodline Arcana)
+4 spell level
Final DC: 33 or 34
A Dazing Persistent Ball Lightning is only a level 9 spell slot (8 with Lineage) so you can afford to add Piercing to guarantee SR penetration or a level of Heighten.
That is 10 Reflex saves which it needs to roll at least a 19 on each against or lose its next 4 rounds.
Vision can be dealt with via the Goz Mask. Alternatively Form of the Dragon III will give you Blindsense 60 (the same as the Dragon) and Immunity to Fire.
The major risk from the Dragon is if it gets to go first and hits you with Disjunction. I would be inclined to set Contingency to go off if I was ever included within the area of a Disjunction spell, probably to Teleport out of the area of effect.
If the Dragon knows of the PC and knows they are coming then you may be in for a bad day. In this situation I would expect the dragon at least to have acquired some electricity resistance. Against known save or die spell perfection specialists you can probably expect it to have access to Greater Spell Immunity.
I don't know where the +2 bloodline ability comes from? Arcane bloodline seems to only apply a +1? As I understand it, all metamagic is applied simultaneously. But I'm not sure. Is there a FAQ? Not that it makes a huge difference, it's still very dangerous, just curious.
Regardless, yes, it would be very very effective if you can get it off. I do think that a character so hyperspecialized on a specific spell might be known for it beforehand so the dragon can prep, as you say, but otherwise it would be very very difficult for the dragon.
Teleporting may be harsh though - it would depend on whether the dragon itself is prone to using teleport as a safety measure. If it is, then it'll work, if not, then it probably has a permanent Teleport Trap leading to some nasty place, so it's a bit of a gamble.
My guess for the Dragon's contingency though (as stated upthread) would be a Planeshift to a secret demiplane in case mobility is somehow hindered. That would probably _save_ the dragon, but on the other hand, getting even to that point is a major achievement for a 20th level caster.
I feel as that there are good odds this would work - there are several countermeasures, but none of them are guarantees, so this is IMO a good plan. The best I've seen so far.
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Ilja wrote: I don't know where the +2 bloodline ability comes from? Arcane bloodline seems to only apply a +1? As I understand it, all metamagic is applied simultaneously. But I'm not sure. Is there a FAQ? Not that it makes a huge difference, it's still very dangerous, just curious. It is School Power, the bloodline ability gained at level 15. You pick one school of magic and all of your DC's increase by 2 with it.
YIDM wrote: maximized empowered calcific touch and haste with multiple touch attacks.
0 Dex dragon = coup de grace.
YIDM
I'd add reach spell to that. Being in melee range of a dragon strikes me as a bad idea.
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I would create a new product called "Smite in a box". It's a spring loaded box with a paladin inside. I could branch out with good and evil varieties.
I could even do a gag line that had a pie tossing goblin in it.
Hmm, an alternate option would be using a Level 20 Arcanist (although Wizard and Sorcerer could manage the same). Pick up the following exploits:
1. Potent Magic (spend an arcane point to add +2DC)
2. Bloodline Development (Fey) (+2DC to your compulsion spells)
3. Counterspell (Counter spells as an immediate action, make sure to have Disjunction prepared))
This gives him a DC for compulsion spells of:
10
+13 Int34
+2 Greater Spell Focus
+2 Bloodline
+2 Potent Magic
+2 Magical Supremacy (if using pool points)
+x Level
Lets assume he does not have Spell Perfection but instead uses Paragon Surge to gain it as needed. This wont be much use during combat (unless quickened) but lets him do all sorts of nasty things in downtime.
Our Arcanist prepares with some Greater Planar Bindings of Planetars. He grabs Perfection for GPB. With the Kimono, Ioun Stone and Greater Spell Penetration he easily beats their SR of 27. Moment of Prescience means he will beat them in an opposed Charisma check to get them to join him in defeating the great evil represented by the dragon. Lets assume he calls in three. He now also has 3 level 16 Cleric assistants. He waits a few days for them to choose a better spell list.
He picks an area to fight the Dragon in which will limit its movement and avoid too much collateral damage. He prepares it with a range of symbol spells and others form of magical trap (permanent Piercing Prismatic Walls for example). As an arcanist he can access any spell and each time he sets one up he can use Spell Perfection to double any bonuses, SR in particular. He is probably adding Persistent to them as well.
On the day of the battle he heads to the prepared location. He Surges into Spell Perfection (Demand) and launches his compulsion using Magical Supremacy. He easily beats its SR (CL35 for SR) and the DC of the Suggestion is 41. He applies a Greater Persistent Rod and the Dragon needs two 17's in order to save. Limited Wish could turn that into two 20's. He suggests that the dragon "immediately teleport to [named location] in order to receive a cookie!". On arrival Planetar 1 seals the area with Dimensional Lock.
At that point you can kill it with whichever method you prefer. Created stat draining undead, symbols, prismatic walls, whatever. You have the whole range of potential preparation options of someone who can cast level 9 arcane spells and has access to level 8 cleric spells.
Kayerloth wrote: Joex The Pale wrote: Why does everyone want to use Dazing metamagic on an energy damage spell? Use it on something that does Force damage (heightened MM anyone?), or even something like Ice Storm, that does part cold, part bludgeoning. Or if it must be pure energy, do sonic. Ear-piercing Scream, for instance. It's the rare creature/caster that protects against sonic damage. Heighten it for the SR boost and boom. (Dare I say, SONIC boom?) After all, it just needs to do 1pt, right? Yep
myself upthread wrote: I might even be tempted to hit our dragon with something not "cold" or preferable untyped/not elemental to bypass presumed protections just to get him Dazed. I would, however, make sure it allows a Reflex save and not 'Saving Throw none' as that would default to allowing a Will save to avoid the Daze. And if possible make it a 5th level+ (ideally 9th) spell to avoid any 4th level cleric spell (or related spells) - Spell Immunity issues as well. And I'm sure its a typo/typing too fast thing but to be clear Heighten boosts the Save DC, it has no effect on penetrating SR. You could use a dazing metamagic rod in conjunction with clashing rocks or stone call if you want to go this route. Rocks fall, everybody dies!
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krevon wrote: I would create a new product called "Smite in a box". It's a spring loaded box with a paladin inside. I could branch out with good and evil varieties.
I could even do a gag line that had a pie tossing goblin in it.
Does the goblin have smite? PIE SMITE!
Stone Call has no save so the dragon would get a will save to avoid the daze effect.
andreww wrote: Hmm, an alternate option would be using a Level 20 Arcanist (although Wizard and Sorcerer could manage the same). Pick up the following exploits:
1. Potent Magic (spend an arcane point to add +2DC)
2. Bloodline Development (Fey) (+2DC to your compulsion spells)
3. Counterspell (Counter spells as an immediate action, make sure to have Disjunction prepared))
This gives him a DC for compulsion spells of:
10
+13 Int34
+2 Greater Spell Focus
+2 Bloodline
+2 Potent Magic
+2 Magical Supremacy (if using pool points)
+x Level
Lets assume he does not have Spell Perfection but instead uses Paragon Surge to gain it as needed. This wont be much use during combat (unless quickened) but lets him do all sorts of nasty things in downtime.
Our Arcanist prepares with some Greater Planar Bindings of Planetars. He grabs Perfection for GPB. With the Kimono, Ioun Stone and Greater Spell Penetration he easily beats their SR of 27. Moment of Prescience means he will beat them in an opposed Charisma check to get them to join him in defeating the great evil represented by the dragon. Lets assume he calls in three. He now also has 3 level 16 Cleric assistants. He waits a few days for them to choose a better spell list.
He picks an area to fight the Dragon in which will limit its movement and avoid too much collateral damage. He prepares it with a range of symbol spells and others form of magical trap (permanent Piercing Prismatic Walls for example). As an arcanist he can access any spell and each time he sets one up he can use Spell Perfection to double any bonuses, SR in particular. He is probably adding Persistent to them as well.
On the day of the battle he heads to the prepared location. He Surges into Spell Perfection (Demand) and launches his compulsion using Magical Supremacy. He easily beats its SR (CL35 for SR) and the DC of the Suggestion is 41. He applies a Greater Persistent Rod and the Dragon needs two 17's in order to save. Limited Wish could turn that into two 20's. He...
Interesting, but I would prefer to hold off on the Arcanist until it is out of beta.
The DC's are two off, I missed that if you use Magical Supremacy then you cannot further enhance with Potent Magic. A Wizard could do much the same as could a well built sorcerer with a supply of Magic Vestments or Paragon Surge.
find a way to immobilize it for a few rounds and then cast polar night?
a dragon lost, a dragon ice sculpture gained.
Can you launch your buffed Demand twice (or more) in a relatively short span of time (under a minute or so)? The first might fail owing to the Wyrm having his own Moment of Prescience. Does Persistent handle this? I'm unsure off the top of my head and no similar feat I'm familiar with existed in 3.5E. With Demand you are also going up against its Will save which is likely adding +8 (give or take) to the base save or so and another +3 resistance bonus as the Wyrm is likely employing Mind Blank.
The other difficulty I see is in the 'pregame game' of research to become 'familiar' with the dragon. Probably a fair bit of table variation (i.e. house ruling) as to what qualifies as familiar. The caster needs to do so, ideally, without the dragon becoming aware of his interest and research in the process. It is, however, another whole adventure/campaign, as multiple folks have pointed out, so for now I'm going to assume the caster somehow succeeds in this momentous task without the Wyrm learning of his interest ... since that is what adventurers tend to do! :)
Ignitorius wrote: Ilja wrote:
Quote:
I am unsure why on earth the shadows would not be able to see a dragon, please clarify?
Because in a red dragon lair there'll be very heavy smoke, like that in pyrotechnics. The issue has been solved for the casters themselves through use of a Goz Mask, but that won't help the shadows.
And why is it the casters are summoning shadows some miles away from the dragon, but not RIGHT NEXT TO IT, where the shadows have visibility of it?
It's smoke(think solid fog), not heightened Deeper Darkness with jamming in case of Echolocation, Blindsight, Blindsense and associates.
If you wish to be so nit-picky, would a Wish for the shadows to threaten a critical suffice(no pun intended)?
Or(to not be that greedy) the dragon to have lowered touch AC? Just to be clear, at least on my part, I do not think the smoke blocks or otherwise renders useless things like Blindsight or similar abilities to see. My issue is primarily how does the caster get to a point within 60ft or so of the dragon where such abilities will work. The lair whether a system of caves, a volcano caldera or crater, demiplane or location on the elemental plane of fire is most likely a huge expanse of territory with quite a bit of the area approaching the dragon rather open to his vision (but filled with smoke, floating ash and cinders and probably bits of magma dropping in unannounced thrown out by volcanic activity of the area). A Goz Mask (or something similar) and its unlimited range of vision nicely solves this. Otherwise it's a bit like a mundane human trying to cross a couple hundred feet of open field on a moonless night while avoiding the gaze and attention of a Great Horned Owl sitting in his pine tree on the other side of the meadow. It ain't happening. In part because I'm also assuming the Wyrm also has See Invisibility made permanent on himself (which is also unlimited in vision range). If the caster does have some way of rendering himself Invisible that can not be overcome by See Invisibility then new game from that standpoint. Even then our dragon has a very high perception score and normal vision and hearing some 2 to 4 times human norms to be dealt with. Until the dragon does use something like Pyrotechnics I also think I would not as a GM set up the lair so that its smoke was quite so blinding as to render normal vision useless at greater than 5 ft that seems a bit too much and doesn't really fit my own internal picture of the lair. Partial concealment yes, total, well I wouldn't at least within 60 ft or so, maybe even a bit further out, before total concealment kicked in. But this is a strictly up to the GM condition and as such the restrictions (and how it's perhaps randomly generated etc.) should be decided during the encounter creation. Basically how does the caster get from several hundred feet away to within 60ft or so where other sorts (but not necessarily all) of magical vision start to function without being seen by a Wyrm who does ignore those conditions created by the smoke? So far a Goz Mask seems to be the best answer as to how to even the playing field in this respect.
Unfortunately for the Greater Shadows they will have to deal with partial concealment from the smoke as they do not have a way to see through it. But the described number of Greater Shadows is going to destroy the Wyrm's Str score rather quickly even with a 20% miss chance messing with them. The real issue is Death Ward particularly an item granting Death Ward effect (and was mentioned by the poster as a potential issue). As long as you are involving Wishes summon a few Wraiths or Dread Wraiths (probably about half as many) - Lifesense and Con Drain.
A comment on Ice Spears and other conjured cold spells. Keep in mind you'll need to deal with rather dense clouds of (superheated?) steam that most of these spells will generate almost instantly when used within the lair (if they even function given we could be talking about his own unique demiplane or the elemental plane of fire). Again a Goz Mask seems a likely best solution for most characters.
Grrrr thought I hit submit (some 8 hours ago), come back with the post still sitting here ... *sigh*
Kayerloth wrote: Can you launch your buffed Demand twice (or more) in a relatively short span of time (under a minute or so)? The first might fail owing to the Wyrm having his own Moment of Prescience. Does Persistent handle this? I'm unsure off the top of my head and no similar feat I'm familiar with existed in 3.5E. With Demand you are also going up against its Will save which is likely adding +8 (give or take) to the base save or so and another +3 resistance bonus as the Wyrm is likely employing Mind Blank. I don't think you can assume that the Dragon has Mind Blank, Protection from Spells and Moment of Prescience. It gets a maximum of three level 8 spells. The version on the pfsrd has screen, prismatic wall and greater shout. Even if we remove Greater Shout as a terrible spell that is only one spell known. Prismatic Wall and Screen are both powerful defensive spells, Screen in particular for a Dragon that wants to protect its lair.
You could drop Screen and swap a level 5 spell for Mage's Private Sanctum which would make two level eight slots. However, level 8 contains a lot of tempting spells. Greater Planar Binding, Clone, Polymorph any Object and Create Demiplane are all very tempting options.
Unfortunately the Dragon cannot take advantage of Paragon Surge as it is rather unlikely to have Racial Heritage (Half Elf).
Kayerloth wrote: Otherwise it's a bit like a mundane human trying to cross a couple hundred feet of open field on a moonless night while avoiding the gaze and attention of a Great Horned Owl sitting in his pine tree on the other side of the meadow. It ain't happening. In part because I'm also assuming the Wyrm also has See Invisibility made permanent on himself (which is also unlimited in vision range). If the caster does have some way of rendering himself Invisible that can not be overcome by See Invisibility then new game from that standpoint. Even then our dragon has a very high perception score and normal vision and hearing some 2 to 4 times human norms to be dealt with. Mind Blank will defeat See Invisibility. I would expect any caster trying to take this critter on alone would be invisible and mind blanked. The Dragon has a Perception of +38. A level 20 caster will have 20 ranks of stealth (whether naturally or from a headband), 2-4 points of Dex and a 20 point bonus from Invisibility. With the perception penalties for range the dragon is unlikely to see the enemy coming.
play a gunslinger. kill dragon. take loot.
*Limited Wish for Fickle Winds*
*eat tasty Gunslinger snack*
Hey, that was easy.
Fickle Winds will only give a 30% miss chance. While defenitively a good defensive buff against a gunslinger, it's nowhere a foolproof defense.
EDIT: Sorry, the dragon can't even cast Fickle Winds on herself - due to her size it would require caster level 32. Wind Wall would work, as long as the gunslinger was to the sides of the dragon rather than above/below, which is likely since the dragon probably is faster than the gunslinger. Still, only 30% miss chance.
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Good thread. Definitely going to have my dragons use Dusts of Choking and Sneezing.
andreww wrote: Kayerloth wrote: Can you launch your buffed Demand twice (or more) in a relatively short span of time (under a minute or so)? The first might fail owing to the Wyrm having his own Moment of Prescience. Does Persistent handle this? I'm unsure off the top of my head and no similar feat I'm familiar with existed in 3.5E. With Demand you are also going up against its Will save which is likely adding +8 (give or take) to the base save or so and another +3 resistance bonus as the Wyrm is likely employing Mind Blank. I don't think you can assume that the Dragon has Mind Blank, Protection from Spells and Moment of Prescience. It gets a maximum of three level 8 spells. The version on the pfsrd has screen, prismatic wall and greater shout. Even if we remove Greater Shout as a terrible spell that is only one spell known. Prismatic Wall and Screen are both powerful defensive spells, Screen in particular for a Dragon that wants to protect its lair.
You could drop Screen and swap a level 5 spell for Mage's Private Sanctum which would make two level eight slots. However, level 8 contains a lot of tempting spells. Greater Planar Binding, Clone, Polymorph any Object and Create Demiplane are all very tempting options.
Unfortunately the Dragon cannot take advantage of Paragon Surge as it is rather unlikely to have Racial Heritage (Half Elf). No I agree the Wyrm's choices are going to be limited (unless one starts giving him a gigantic pile of very nice scrolls ...) But what I might assume and know as a GM about the encounter is a bit different from what my Loremaster is going to assume about things. Until proven or learned one way or another I (as the player of whatever character is facing this challenge) don't want to assume the Wyrm isn't potentially effected by what are relatively common CRB spells. Assume the worst, hope for the best and all.
Annnnd yes somehow I managed to overlook the Wyrm's See Invisibility being blocked by the character using Mind Blank on themselves (Doh! moment). Hopefully you are correct about the Caster's Stealth capability. I had none on my Loremaster. There was an extremely stealthy Rogue in the group and I used Prying Eyes and Arcane Eye so my need was minimal. The skills added to the Headband's is also a PF 'thing' so it wasn't really an option for my Loremaster (since he is a 3.5E build). No idea how common it is among PF Wiz and Sor builds. In any case Invisibility + even relatively rudimentary Stealth (+/- other buffs like Heroism and including Mind Blank) is much more likely to get one close enough to the dragon to only have to deal with partial smoke based concealment.
Dragon can just have all the pages of spell knowledge and all material components in horde.
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Marthkus wrote: Dragon can just have all the pages of spell knowledge and all material components in horde. Yes, he could. Are you prepared to allow the PC to gain all that as treasure when (not if but when, thinking 'if' is dangerous as a GM) the dragon is defeated? I wouldn't, but yes 1 or 2 such things might be in his treasure horde and give the our Wyrm a slightly expanded list of spell choices. And again such things should be part of the encounter design and established beforehand.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Drachasor wrote: It would help if the OP specified how old the dragon was. Because Age Categories make a huge difference in capability. It could have anything from 6th level spells to 9th level.
Regarding "Schroedinger's Dragon" well, that's kind of how dragons are or should be played. That is, each dragon IS unique and powerful. It's lair is going to be unique. Just slapping on assumptions about how the fight will start is a really bad idea. These are extremely powerful and clever creatures.
General tips and combat advise is good. Ideally attacks that don't use save. Have a Disjunction to counter an AMF. Summons can be useful. Dex damage CAN work, depending, but there are also a lot of ways to counter it (and a savvy dragon/DM will have planned ahead). It's also rather anti-climatic and likely cause unhappy faces even if it does work.
What you definitely need is a lot of planning, scouting, and investigating. Both magic and mundane. Start off with indirect inquiries such as using Contact Plane, Commune, Legend Lore, asking locals, researching history, etc, etc. Get a feel for the dragon before you do anything it might detect. And always, plan a battle with multiple strategies to victory. Assume he might counter anything you do and prepare ways to respond (including responses to particular counters like AMF -- AMF will be the trickiest bit to deal with, honestly). And always, always, always have multiple escape routes. Try to have ways to counter the same (or track the dragon if it flees to a warded area on another plane).
None of which work because you are fighting Schrödinger's dragon who has all the perfect defenses against divination and your offensive choices.
And he's got everything perfectly planned so when you exhaust your spells attempting to find intel that is when you are dropped, flat-footed in the midst of your sleep cycle without spells in front of him so all of his contingencies go off while he's coup de gracing you for a DC 50+ fort save that you auto-fail, with a double-roll and take worse as a kicker.
It's the same as using Schrödinger's wizard. Without some baseline assumptions you will not win. That's how it works. The baseline assumptions were made by others...and were promptly shot down by others as well via fiat.
As for dust of sneezing and choking... thats why you wear a necklace of adaptation.
I think as a base line encounter, it should be neither side is surprised, neither has buff rounds, range is about 100 ft, the dragon is in a dark and smokey environment, and dragon magic items assumptions are kept to common reasonable things in the sub 50000gp range, with probably no more than 200,000gp of items total. This is reasonable for triple treasure at CR20. I think a +5 save boosting item is probably to be expected. Also common contingency spells are to be expected (all elemental damage resistance, teleport if half hp is lost, etc.). I would hope that makes a sufficiently tough fight setup for people to consider.
bfobar wrote: Also common contingency spells are to be expected (all elemental damage resistance, teleport if half hp is lost, etc.). I would hope that makes a sufficiently tough fight setup for people to consider. Contingency only allows for one spell.
Oh heck. I thought you could layer those things. Well that makes things easier.
So what is the most dragonesque contingency? Protection from cold when targeted by cold? Teleport when half hp are lost? Greater dispel magic or AMF when target by a spell?
I am a fan of your preferred get the hell out of there spell whenever you click your fingers/claw, think a particular phrase, waggle your tail etc. Anything that could reasonably be interpreted as an immediate action really.
Well if you were a Druid I'd say sneak in while he's sleeping, Wild Shape into a dragon and the Stone Shape the floor through his face
Malcolm Bookchild wrote: Well if you were a Druid I'd say sneak in while he's sleeping, Wild Shape into a dragon and the Stone Shape the floor through his face Wild shape into a dragon?
Teleport isn't a very good idea in one's lair - preferably one would have Plane Shift to a safe, secret demiplane, while having a permanent Teleport Trap in the lair to ward of intruders.
Cap. Darling wrote: Malcolm Bookchild wrote: Well if you were a Druid I'd say sneak in while he's sleeping, Wild Shape into a dragon and the Stone Shape the floor through his face Wild shape into a dragon? Yes, at 20th level I'm fairly certain that could be done as " it also allows you to assume the form of a Diminutive or Huge creature of the animal type. This spell also allows you to take on the form of a Small or Medium creature of the magical beast type." so not necessarily a large dragon, but still a dragon
Malcolm Bookchild wrote: Cap. Darling wrote: Malcolm Bookchild wrote: Well if you were a Druid I'd say sneak in while he's sleeping, Wild Shape into a dragon and the Stone Shape the floor through his face Wild shape into a dragon? Yes, at 20th level I'm fairly certain that could be done as " it also allows you to assume the form of a Diminutive or Huge creature of the animal type. This spell also allows you to take on the form of a Small or Medium creature of the magical beast type." so not necessarily a large dragon, but still a dragon Wild shape dosent allow magical beasts and dragons are there own monster type, namely Dragons:)
Cap. Darling wrote: Malcolm Bookchild wrote: Cap. Darling wrote: Malcolm Bookchild wrote: Well if you were a Druid I'd say sneak in while he's sleeping, Wild Shape into a dragon and the Stone Shape the floor through his face Wild shape into a dragon? Yes, at 20th level I'm fairly certain that could be done as " it also allows you to assume the form of a Diminutive or Huge creature of the animal type. This spell also allows you to take on the form of a Small or Medium creature of the magical beast type." so not necessarily a large dragon, but still a dragon Wild shape dosent allow magical beasts and dragons are there own monster type, namely Dragons:)
It does allow magical beasts, says it right there, you could be a small or medium dragon. So while not a full grown dragon, you could wild shape into a dragon
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i'm pretty sure he's saying that a dragon isnt of the magical beast subtype, but of the Dragon subtype.
Malcolm Bookchild wrote:
It does allow magical beasts, says it right there, you could be a small or medium dragon. So while not a full grown dragon, you could wild shape into a dragon
Dragons aren't magical Beasts in Pathfinder http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types . There is however a spell which would allow certain characters to transform into dragons http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/form-of-the-dragon-i Not for Druids though.
Also, while I'm all against Schroedingers Dragon and turning this into a caster vs caster endless duel, he should at least have an Alarm spell up while sleeping.
IMO a Necromancer should be able to take that dragon. A Juju Oracle 15/ Agent of the Grave 5 with Command Undead could control 166 HD of Minions. I've seen builds go over 200 HD, though I have forgotten how. He can also have humanoid Zombies, that retain Class abillities.
They should be able to do more than just buy you enough time to take out that dragon.
I'm just going to drop this link here. It's apparently possible to kill a Great Wyrm red dragon at 6th level, with the right build.
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Malcolm Bookchild wrote: It does allow magical beasts, says it right there, you could be a small or medium dragon. So while not a full grown dragon, you could wild shape into a dragon Dragons are of the Dragon type, not the Magical Beast type.
Plus, wild shape doesn't grant the ability to become a Magical Beast, even while the relevant beast shape spell does. Wild shape says "when taking the form of animals, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape III", not that wild shape functions as beast shape III for all purposes.
Now, a druid can take the form of a dragon (and some other forms, including those of magical beasts), but must do so via the 9th-level shapechange spell.
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