First of all, awesome job of revamping the flavor. This class just got tons more interesting. Some of the abilities need work, but that's what the play test is for.
We need to look at the early levels, though. I realize full casters get way more powerful as they advance while the starter levels are a slog. I like the sacrifice of spell power for flexibility, but it exacerbates the early level slog for this class. Paizo recognized and addressed this issue by giving wizards and sorcerers powers that gave them added depth at low levels. This made the classes more survivable. I see the blasty exploits try to do the same thing, but there are some problems. The blasting abilities scale up, attempting to give the most spell starved full caster class something to fall back on in heavy combat scenarios. This is very thoughtful but these abilities are based on a point system which is going to be minimal at low levels. By the mid tier levels and later, characters will have picked up scrolls and magic items to add depth to their spell casting. These resources are much less available in low level adventures.
As things stand, this class is going to be very boring to play for the first 5 or so levels. Players will have a couple of moments to shine but will primarily be wielding a crossbow. Players generally accept this as the price of the full casting classes, but the Arcanist as it currently stands is going to have a far worse time of it than his wizard and sorcerer brothers. Either the Arcanist point system needs to be reworked to be less anemic early on without overpowering the later levels, or a new ability needs to be introduced that is only effective for the early levels. The balance concerns later on matter less if only the dedicated are willing to take the class through the first few steps.
I realize that I've been describing the norm for wizards in earlier editions of the game. However, Paizo addressed those issues for wizards. Now they need to address them for Arcanists.
I don't see how it overshadows the sorcerer bloodlines and power levels there.
Wizards get spells a lvl sooner, sorcers get a variety of bloodlines which are very effective/cool/good etc...
I'm sure some of the perks will get a makeover, but it looks solid and without terrible imbalance.
I play sorcerers often, and while the bloodlines are interesting, most of the spells for many of the bloodlines as well as the abilities and powers are garbage, and there's no way to switch them out outside of 3pp or homebrewed options where as the arcanist gets to pick what he wants. I'm never EVER going to use claws with a straight sorcerer.
Ok, so there's a few things that do this that I missed or forgotten, but they are either once per day, for a particular school of magic, or have a drawback. There is no blanket +1 - +2 the caster level for all spells without a drawback. As pointed out earlier, there is a way to use this ability to cast low level spells at a ridiculously high caster level.
But as it stands right now, I still think this class overshadows both the sorcerer and the wizard in its casting style and that the exploits are too good. And yes I will go as far to accuse those who say this class looks amazing and that they cant wait to play it or those that say this class isn't unbalanced or overpowered are either power gamers, munchkins, and/or those that eat their cake and want it too.
The abilities don't sit within the realms of what casters can do at the moment and giving a class that gets the best of both worlds as well as new abilities that go outside the range of what can be done within the game's mechanics right now is not good design and is a problem.
Cross-blooded Sorcerer would like a word with you.
There is no blanket +1 - +2 the caster level for all spells without a drawback. As pointed out earlier, there is a way to use this ability to cast low level spells at a ridiculously high caster level.
Several options were pointed out already to increase caster level. Many of these options are narrow, true, but some are blankets that cover all spells and a few others cover entire schools.
For my part I don't see myself using the pool so much for this function as I'd rather help my group in an anti-caster function when possible. Given this is a niche difficult to fill I rather like the idea of this class being able to put a wedge in the casting plans of enemies. I can certainly think of a few encounters that would have been much easier had this guy been around to remove buffs/spells from my group earlier.
I think personally my difficulty with this revision is that it isn't a Hybrid. I'm very happy for all the other new Hybrids to also not be hybrids, and to move further away from their parent class. But with this revision, the Arcanist stands out like a sore thumb. I'd be very happy for similar revisions for other hybrids, though apart from the Warpriest I'm pretty happy with all the others in the APG playtest guide.
We weren't specifically aiming for hybrid classes being exactly down the middle of their two component classes. As we progress with this book, we'd like to see them stand out as something more unique (as the magus does) but still have elements of those two classes, so perhaps more 30% class A/30% class B/40% new class, or something similar.
I feel this is pretty much the "magus" mixing sorcerer and wizard - it burrows from both but is neither. And I agree that other mixes from the Advanced Class Guide could be more like this - Swashbuckler, I am looking at you.
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I mean it's not like sorcs (in particular cross blooded) have a way of making every spell they cast be better without any actions needed...
Maybe if you'd say specifically any abilities you feel are just ridiculously over powered that'd work well?
Counterspell still requires you to expend a slot (and if it's a higher lvl caster, casting a spell lvl you can't cast you can't counter it with it)
Dimensional slide is a move action (not swift like the teleport school)
Potent Magic is basically Greater Spell focus, but stacks and is not always on. (several bloodlines give +2 dc to charm, enchant, etc)
Spell Tinkerer requires you to be adjacent or in the effect....
The damage spells are all basically like any sorc damage ability, but less uses per day most likely.
There is no blanket +1 - +2 the caster level for all spells without a drawback. As pointed out earlier, there is a way to use this ability to cast low level spells at a ridiculously high caster level.
This has to be flexible in what spells it can affect, or it would be useless for a caster like the arcanist who is intended to be extremely configurable from day to day.
How about casting 11 in a row of any combination of 3 different 9th spells, among which 6 are of higher cl and dc for free? Not to mention that after several minutes another row of 6 will be hailed down.
How about casting 11 in a row of any combination of 3 different 9th spells, among which 6 are of higher cl and dc for free? Not to mention that after several minutes another row of 6 will be hailed down.
Yup, pretty strong, just remember this is at level 20 where simply having all the high level spells isn't the same as being able to use them or particularly wanting to. This ability would be cherry on top of the game breaking frosting that is the wizard.
That being said it wouldn't hurt to nerf it at all.
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Okay, now that I've looked over this class again and thought about it a bit I don't think it's AS overpowered as I first did. Honestly I think this is what the casting mechanic of ALL classes should be, as it's very user friendly. This is going to be the class I steer new mages towards due to the forgiving nature of spell prep.
Something I'd like to see from this (as a meta magic fan) is some way to translate points into MM reducers, although I recognize that way is the way of madness. It's more of a pipe dream really, but I'd honestly like some way to make Silent/Still spell worth taking, not one of the more intense like Dazing or Quicken.
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you're talking about at lvl 20 to make your case?
Arcane bloodline Sorcerer, 4 different spells, will cast at least 7 if not 8. Adds metamagic on the fly without increasing cast time, also the lvl 15 ability gives it +2 dc without any action (as long as its from that school picked)
if you're wanting enchant focused, cross blooded and bam now you've got that same +6 on every charm spell you cast...
the capstone shouldn't really be your lynch pin to your argument.
Cross-blooded Sorcerer would like a word with you.Ok, so there's a few things that do this that I missed or forgotten, but they are either once per day, for a particular school of magic, or have a drawback. There is no blanket +1 - +2 the caster level for all spells without a drawback. As pointed out earlier, there is a way to use this ability to cast low level spells at a ridiculously high caster level.
But as it stands right now, I still think this class overshadows both the sorcerer and the wizard in its casting style and that the exploits are too good. And yes I will go as far to accuse those who say this class looks amazing and that they cant wait to play it or those that say this class isn't unbalanced or overpowered are either power gamers, munchkins, and/or those that eat their cake and want it too.
The abilities don't sit within the realms of what casters can do at the moment and giving a class that gets the best of both worlds as well as new abilities that go outside the range of what can be done within the game's mechanics right now is not good design and is a problem.
Cross blooded sorcerer is an absolute joke. Instead of getting your spells one level behind the wizard, its now two levels behind the wizard. It would have been better if they limited how many spells you could cast per day, not how many you know.
And woooooo, you get two bloodlines with s*^&&% abilities and spells. I poured over all of the bloodlines a while back and most of them have 1 or two good abilities or spells (note i did not say and), and whats left over is complete garbage.
Cross-blooded Sorcerer would like a word with you.Ok, so there's a few things that do this that I missed or forgotten, but they are either once per day, for a particular school of magic, or have a drawback. There is no blanket +1 - +2 the caster level for all spells without a drawback. As pointed out earlier, there is a way to use this ability to cast low level spells at a ridiculously high caster level.
But as it stands right now, I still think this class overshadows both the sorcerer and the wizard in its casting style and that the exploits are too good. And yes I will go as far to accuse those who say this class looks amazing and that they cant wait to play it or those that say this class isn't unbalanced or overpowered are either power gamers, munchkins, and/or those that eat their cake and want it too.
The abilities don't sit within the realms of what casters can do at the moment and giving a class that gets the best of both worlds as well as new abilities that go outside the range of what can be done within the game's mechanics right now is not good design and is a problem.
Cross blooded sorcerer is an absolute joke. Instead of getting your spells one level behind the wizard, its now two levels behind the wizard. It would have been better if they limited how many spells you could cast per day, not how many you know.
And woooooo, you get two bloodlines with s*^&&% abilities and spells. I poured over all of the bloodlines a while back and most of them have 1 or two good abilities or spells (note i did not say and), and whats left over is complete garbage.
with draconic/abyssal you have a neat selection of useful abilities (dragon or abyssal -> dragon -> abyssal -> dragon or abyssal -> dragon or abyssal), and segues nicely into dragon disciple. you end up with decent BAB, respectable casting, and plenty of stat boosts (particularly after form of the dragon and whatnot).
you can also use elemental/draconic (i think it was draconic anyway) to make a blaster (particularly cold with rime) actually rather decent from the bonus damage and shifting spells to cold, as well as shore up your defenses.
fey/serpentine has some good uses, from what i hear, but i have no experience with those two.
@Craft Cheese:
1.) Wizards don't tinker as written. They just learn. Arcanists analyze and fiddle with magic itself, while Wizards study spells specifically and Sorcerers just kind of do stuff. Very different theme.
This is from the wizard part of ultimate magic.
"Wizards spend much of their lives seeking deeper truths, hunting knowledge as if it were life itself. The wizard's power is not necessarily the spells he wields; spells are merely the outward, most visible manifestation of that power. A wizard's true power is in his fierce intelligence, his dedication to his craft, and his ability to peel back the surface truths of reality to understand the fundamental underpinnings of existence. A wizard spends much of his time researching spells, and would rather find an undiscovered library than a room full of gold. A wizard need not be a reclusive bookworm, but he must have a burning curiosity for the unknown"
I think that it is a valid point that the arcanist at the moment dosent seem to have his own flavor, out side of the rules.
But i think the rules looks interesting, and will try them out at first given oppotunity.
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I apologize if this Issue was already brought up.
I find this alittle bit unclear:
"This ability can be used on unwilling targets, but the arcanist must succeed at a melee touch attack, and the target may attempt a Will saving throw to negate the effect."
Take this ability for:
- Hold Monster: Does the caster of the Spell get to make a Will Save or is it automatically suppressed?
- Wall of Force: Can this be suppressed? How much of the wall will be suppressed?
- Prismatic Sphere: Does the caster get a Will Save? I would guess so, but I suppress the effect, not the effect on a target.
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Do the damaging exploits really need to cost anything?[...]
I agree the rays don't need to cost points from your pool, but I still feel you must choose them as your exploits. Having them be all free would make the wizard's and sorcerer's similar low-level "free" abilities seem too lacklustre. But the idea to be able to fire an unlimited number of poor elemental attack on the round when you don't cast a spell works out for me. It does indeed make up for the low number of spells per day.
Then again, these "free" attacks on the sorc and wiz could use some buffing too. Not that this is on the table.
also gives you a neat little scaling "crossbow" to plink away with, without needing a weapon.
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So a fourth level Arcanist can shut down my sixth level Wizard? And this gets worse… At higher level not only does the Arcanist lock down a “conventional” caster with their immediate actions but they can also recharge their pool with a successful counterspell? The other issue I have with this is, it looks to be that there are no verbal or somatic components to this ability. So even under a silence spell or a lipstitch, this character is still counterspelling casters with no issues.
This was the problem with 3.5 with the Wizard and Sorcerer against the Warlock. Any type of refillable pool or infinitely reusable ability, will beat spell slots any day of the week. Sure I might have more spells, but if I can’t cast them because immediate actions act outside of initiative, what good am I if my spells are instantly countered before any of them take effect. This relegates a wizard to a buff or summoning bot and sitting on the sideline during the combat.
This is why Pathfinder is inadvertently pushing classes to have pets. Why should I risk a saving throw, magic resistance and now being counterspelled when my big bad pet can eat them?
If the devs are going to move to a pool based characters and characters with more supernatural abilities then please spend some time and revamp the original core characters to make them competitive.
A fourth level anybody with dispel magic (if they have it) can shut down a 6th level wizard if they roll better on their opposed dispel check. Being sixth level vs. fourth only gives you an extra +2...
This isn't that big of a deal.
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Nope wrong again: Arcanist spends one point from a pool, and raises the spell level by 1. They are now dispelling a fireball with a second level spell. If the Arcanist is Fifth level and uses a Fireball to dispel another Fireball, again as a swift action acting out of initiative, they get a +5.
This ability again is Su, and has not been clarified if it has either a V or S component.
Arcane Reservoir (Su): An arcanist has an innate pool of magical energy that she can draw upon to fuel her arcanist exploits and enhance her spells. The arcanist’s arcane reservoir can hold an amount of magical energy equal to three times the arcanist’s level. Each day when preparing spells, the arcanist’s arcane reservoir fills with raw magical energy, gaining a number of points equal to 1 + 1/2 her arcanist level. Any points she had from the previous day are lost. She can also regain these points through the consume spells class feature and some arcanist exploits. The arcane reservoir can never hold more points that the total mentioned above, points gained in excess of this maximum are lost.
Points from the arcanist reservoir are used to fuel many of the arcanist’s powers (see arcane exploits). In addition, the arcanist can expend one point from her arcane reservoir as a free action whenever she casts an arcanist spell. If she does, she can choose to increase the caster level by 1 or increase the DC of the spell by 1. She can expend no more than one point from her reservoir on a given spell in this way.
Counterspell (Su): By expending one point from her arcane reservoir to attempt to counterspell a spell as it is being cast. The arcanist must identify the spell being cast as normal. If the check is successful, the arcanist can then use an immediate action and expend an available arcanist spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the level of the spell being cast. To counterspell the spell, the arcanist must make dispel check as
If the check is successful, the arcanist can then use an immediate action and expend an available arcanist spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the level of the spell being cast.
When does the arcanist have available level 3 spell slots to dispel that fireball?
Hmm...
Next step in counterspelling is spell return.
Should an Arcanist get something along those lines at later levels?
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Actually JRutterbush I overlooked that the Arcanist gets two spells at 6th level, which more than makes up for not having a 3rd level spell at 5th level.
However to infer that someone doesn't know the rules, is rather conceded.
The fact stands, the counterspell needs to be a standard action not a SU.
Gotta say I'm loving the re-vamp.
It hit's all the right buttons for me.
I have never bothered with dispelling or meta-magic in the past, but would actually consider it with an Arcanist.
The dispelling being an immediate action for this class is perfect in my mind.
Not sure how I feel about the further de-crease in spells per day, I'm a little concerned it's gone to far...
But, if a weaker version of the capstone was available at earlier levels, that would solve the problem (IMO).
I would want to see more exploits....I can't really see myself taking any of the blast exploits, which are the bulk of them available so far.
Cross-blooded Sorcerer would like a word with you.Ok, so there's a few things that do this that I missed or forgotten, but they are either once per day, for a particular school of magic, or have a drawback. There is no blanket +1 - +2 the caster level for all spells without a drawback. As pointed out earlier, there is a way to use this ability to cast low level spells at a ridiculously high caster level.
But as it stands right now, I still think this class overshadows both the sorcerer and the wizard in its casting style and that the exploits are too good. And yes I will go as far to accuse those who say this class looks amazing and that they cant wait to play it or those that say this class isn't unbalanced or overpowered are either power gamers, munchkins, and/or those that eat their cake and want it too.
The abilities don't sit within the realms of what casters can do at the moment and giving a class that gets the best of both worlds as well as new abilities that go outside the range of what can be done within the game's mechanics right now is not good design and is a problem.
Cross blooded sorcerer is an absolute joke. Instead of getting your spells one level behind the wizard, its now two levels behind the wizard. It would have been better if they limited how many spells you could cast per day, not how many you know.
And woooooo, you get two bloodlines with s*^&&% abilities and spells. I poured over all of the bloodlines a while back and most of them have 1 or two good abilities or spells (note i did not say and), and whats left over is complete garbage.
You've obviously never played one nor seen one in action. A level 6 crossblooded Sorcerer (Draconic/Orc) does 9d6+18 damage (and probably can do more) with their fireball. Burning hands 5d6+10. If fire isn't what you want to go for then pick a different draconic bloodline and make your shocking grasp do 5d6+10 until you can get Intensify Spell and make it do 10d6+20 damage at level 10.
This class is coming along fine in the development process. Specialist Wizards and Sorcerers both get more spells per day than the Arcanist currently. On top of that if the Arcanist wants more arcane reservoir points he has to give up even more spell slots when he already has less than Wizards and Sorcerers to begin with. I really don't think people are taking an objective look at this class when they claim it is OP. My level 2 Arcanist gets 4 level 1 spells per day and 2 Arcane pool points. That is less points than I had with the blood focus ability so I have even less versatility than the old writeup. If I want more points I need to go down to 3 level 1 spell slots in order to have 3 arcane reservoir points. Evoker Wizards get 7+ Force missiles a day, an Arcanist needs to spend spell slots if they want to use more than two.
Nope wrong again: Arcanist spends one point from a pool, and raises the spell level by 1. They are now dispelling a fireball with a second level spell. If the Arcanist is Fifth level and uses a Fireball to dispel another Fireball, again as a swift action acting out of initiative, they get a +5.
This ability again is Su, and has not been clarified if it has either a V or S component.
Caster level != Spell level. You cannot counter a fireball with a level 2 spell slot. The ability is supernatural and shouldn't have a verbal or somatic component as it is not spell-like.
Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
Not sure why it matters whether or not this has a verbal or somatic component.
Will the multiclass restriction be removed from the arcanist, since it clearly is no longer a true hybrid of sorcerer and wizard and shares no class features with those classes?
Regardless of how many class features they share, IMO they should keep all of these classes as "alternative" to the base class they are inspired by and restrict multi-classing.
I certainly wouldn't let a player at my table do a Ninja/Rouge...
But as I said, that's just my opinion.
Actually JRutterbush I overlooked that the Arcanist gets two spells at 6th level, which more than makes up for not having a 3rd level spell at 5th level.
However to infer that someone doesn't know the rules, is rather conceded.
The fact stands, the counterspell needs to be a standard action not a SU.
I don't think he was trying to be rude. You confused caster level with spell level, which is a common mistake made by even veteran gamers. Spell effects like Darkness is one such example of people confusing spell level with caster level on a very regular basis.
Caster Level
A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the Dc of the check).
Level
The next line of a spell description gives the spell's level, a number between 0 and 9 that defines the spell's relative power. This number is preceded by a list of classes whose members can cast the spell. A spell's level affects the DC for any save allowed against its effects.
Feats and Traits. There are probably ways to boost it more, but these are just a few I am aware of.
Spell Specialization
Gifted Adept
I certainly wouldn't let a player at my table do a Ninja/Rouge...
Why not? I've never really understood this restriction. It's not like it would be especially powerful. A Rogue 3/Ninja 3, for example, is gaining +1d6 Sneak Attack over a Rogue 6 or Ninja 6, but losing out on a Talent, as well as losing out on Uncanny Dodge and No Trace and Trap Sense +2 and losing two points of Trapfinding in return for gaining Poison Use and some Ki Points.
I really don't see what would be so bad about allowing alternate class Multiclassing. Well, Ninja/Rogue at least, I'd have to check on other possible combinations to see what they can do.
You would also be giving that Ninja Evasion at a level that he shouldn't be able to get it. It is a level 10 Ninja Trick that you would be allowing him to get as early as level 2. That is one major reason it shouldn't be allowed. And the Rogue wouldn't have to spend rogue talents to gain a ki pool. He would get it for free.
This was the problem with 3.5 with the Wizard and Sorcerer against the Warlock. Any type of refillable pool or infinitely reusable ability, will beat spell slots any day of the week. Sure I might have more spells, but if I can’t cast them because immediate actions act outside of initiative, what good am I if my spells are instantly countered before any of them take effect. This relegates a wizard to a buff or summoning bot and sitting on the sideline during the combat.
I know its not the point of your post, but wizard vs. warlock the wizard was the winner. Refillable pools and all day abilities don't instantly become overpowering vs. x/day abilities, its relative to how powerful those abilities are. Eldritch blast fell behind, and so does the arcanist blast abilities*. Single target 3D6 at level 5 for instance is pretty pitiful, but those rider effects could make them pretty darn powerful. Just doing 3D6 though? Pretty much every guy with a hammer can do that on your team.
*Though ice missile/icy tomb looks exceptionally strong out of the bunch. Staggered/entangled/ability damage... ouch! About the time you have that going though you have dazing fireball available too though.