For a level 1 party, a CR3 enounter is by no means "overpowered."
However, a wight (Bestiary 1, p. 276) is CR3, but has the "Energy Drain" power. So a single touch by a wight would kill a character instantly at level 1.
So at what player character level is a wight actually CR3?
1st level characters usually have between 6 and 12 hp. A single good hit from anything will kill them. 1st level sucks and balancing encounters for them is difficult. A wight at first level would be a boss fight. The whole party would be focusing on it. It only has 14 AC, but has 26 hp. It's slam is at +4 to hit so it's about 50/50 to hit a first level fighter. The party should be able to take it down in two rounds. The chance of someone dying is high, but that's not uncommon for a first level fight.
If the party is smart or cautious they may be able to engage at range which means softening it up for maybe only one round in melee.
All in all, it's a hard fight, but not ridiculously unfair.
1st level characters usually have between 6 and 12 hp. A single good hit from anything will kill them.
Assuming a Con of 14 and 10HP, it would take 24 hit points to kill a the PC in one hit. Knocking them down is pretty easy, but as long as the group wins, they can probably be revived.
I'd say a level 2 party should be able to beat a wight without fatalities unless they're very careless or unlucky. Though if they don't have any way of buying Restoration spells, a negative level is a very nasty thing.
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If you're level 1, 1 negative level kills you. So yes, I agree that it is that dangerous.
Then again, so are orc barbarians with falchions.
Smart, cautious play will help those first level wight killers make it to second level. If you let it close with you, you're flirting with disaster.
I would not use it until level 2, if it was only 1 of them.
I wouldn't use a standard wight as a 1st level encounter, too easy to kill the PCs and would also cause the PC to raise as a wight themselves later on.
You could make them think it's a full wight, but actually a lesser variety.
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Depends on the encounter space, of course. How long does it take the creature to close to melee distance? Can the party retreat? Have the PCs been forewarned? Is it willing to parley?
From a GM's perspective, rather than a designer, the make-up of the party plays a big part, too. Do we have a party of three, including two wizards with AC 13? Or do we have seven PC, led by three negative-energy channelling, undead-commanding clerics?
Is this a question about an existing product, or are you wondering about putting a wight into an adventure you're designing?
It's possible, but if it doesn't (gets a high initiative roll, doesn't do anything stupid), it has about a 50% chance of permanently killing a PC each round.
Depends if the party is full of beginners. Experienced players I'd throw anything at them within their CR, then again level 1 is kind of the sorting out period.... then again. How long does it take to make a level 1 character?
I'd say it depends on many factors, making this a tough question to answer. Factors to think about are party composition, party size, terrain of the encounter, and the tactics of the wight.
A single wight against a well-equipped party of 1st-level PCs that include a cleric and PCs with effective ranged attacks would be a relatively easy encounter-- especially if the PCs have a decent chance of getting the drop on it, and can manage to keep it at range for a round or two.
On the other hand, if the wight managed to ambush a 4-PC party by jumping into the middle of them, getting a surprise round and if it wins initiative... that could be a TPK!
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Heavily depends on what you consider "fair".
With a boss fight, if things go south, I consider it fair if one or two party members die.
Some groups never want any character to die. For these players it would be OP for a 1st level party.
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Level 1 (see Thornkeep, which throws that very monster at level 1 characters).
Played that one and we lost a third of the party to it. It is too strong an encounter, even as a boss fight, for a 1st level party.
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Played that one and we lost a third of the party to it. It is too strong an encounter, even as a boss fight, for a 1st level party.
Is there no enemy that the party faces which should be able to kill several party members?
I'm not asking to be snarky but to get your gauge on how dangerous a boss fight should be.
Some gamers like to be more "old school" where the survivors of a campaign have seen many companions fall on the way to the final goal. Others like a softer hand guiding the game so that the heroes have narrative protection.
It would be good to get a feel for what the "average deadliness" of campaigns is among the PF players here.
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The difference (in my actual experience) between a wight being fair and unfair for a level 1 encounter:
GM: you're walking down the hallway and come to a "T" intersection; you spot a...powerful humanoid with rotting flesh
Cleric PC: Knowledge: Religion? (rolls...) 17 total. What is it?
GM: you face a wight; a powerful undead creature (undead traits) with a devastating life-draining touch attack.
All PCs: let's roll initiative...
This fight ended poorly for the PCs and I got yelled at for such a brutal random encounter.
GM: Legend tells of the tomb being haunted; not by it's original inhabitant but by a murderer who used it as a hideout. Malek Bane was convicted of murder but swore unto the noose he was innocent. His old gang helped free him literally from the gallows in a daring raid and they escaped into the barrows nearby. So the tale goes the corrupt sheriff drove a posse here in pursuit and cornered Bane and his accomplaces in this tomb, then sealed them inside. Years later a powerful undead force, a creature of rotten flesh, hateful sentience and inhuman strength, was found stalking the inner chambers of the place. Over the years many have tried to cleanse the tomb of this haunt and give proper rest not only to Bane but the other restless dead his mere presence has given rise to. The city has even gained assurance from the church of Pharasma that they will compensate any who complete the quest so long as the original burial artifacts are left where they are found. To date ALL have perished in the attempt.
PCs do research, make rolls...
GM: Bane has exhibited the powers and behaviors of a wight; powerful undead creature (undead traits) with a devastating life-draining touch attack.
The players entered the tomb with holy water, specially blessed arrows (+1 to hit vs undead) and alchemist's fire. Needless to say, my players were very happy to have been so well armed and walked away with only minor scrapes from accompanying skeletons in the tomb complex.
There's a difference between character death because "the whole party rolled bad and we missed with every attack in the first round, letting the creature hit the same PC twice" and character death because "the wight got 1 hit in on an unlucky PC and, oops, that energy drain not only killed the PC but also made it come back a few rounds later as another wight we had to kill".
The latter is exactly what happened. By the time we dropped the original Wight the second had already stood up and was laying into the rest of the party.
I'm running Slumbering Tsar, a known killer adventure, (starts at level 7) and even the low cr guys included have all sorts of auto-kill or save or die abilities. I don't think its unfair, because players can build some powerfull characters and I think there should be potential for death in every combat.
That's just our gaming style, no threat = no challenge. My players don't mind rolling up new toons every other game when the dice go bad. We are 12 sessions in with a party of 7 with 6 deaths.
Edit: We nearly added 2 last night. They survived by the skin of their teeth.
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It's pretty rare for characters to fight things that do negative levels below level 5. Unless there's metagaming afoot, there's no way the PCs would know the wight has an instant-kill move.
It's pretty rare for characters to fight things that do negative levels below level 5.
This was my intuition as well - regardless of what some developer may have put into Thornkeep.
Level 1 (see Thornkeep, which throws that very monster at level 1 characters).
Just because a designer did it, does not mean that it is good design.
What I am seeing though is that it really depends on the GM's (an groups) play style.
In fact it was that very encounter that prompted this question. .
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1st level characters usually have between 6 and 12 hp. A single good hit from anything will kill them. 1st level sucks and balancing encounters for them is difficult. A wight at first level would be a boss fight. The whole party would be focusing on it. It only has 14 AC, but has 26 hp. It's slam is at +4 to hit so it's about 50/50 to hit a first level fighter. The party should be able to take it down in two rounds. The chance of someone dying is high, but that's not uncommon for a first level fight.
If the party is smart or cautious they may be able to engage at range which means softening it up for maybe only one round in melee.
All in all, it's a hard fight, but not ridiculously unfair.
Unless that Fighter is built badly, or started with absolute minimum money, his AC will be higher than 14, so less than a 50% chance.
Dex 12, Scale armor, maybe a shield or buckler = AC 16-18, before feats, fighting defensively/total defense, combat expertise, dodge, etc.
For an arcane caster, who hasn't cast Mage Armor, it is bad, but they shouldn't be anywhere near the wight in Accursed Halls, but that arcane caster is probably running a 14 flatfooted, 16-17 regular AC.
Also, that wight starts prone, so on its first turn, unless someone has double-moved up to confront an enemy behind other enemies, which is a tactical no-no, it has to spend its first turn standing up and then moving, not 5' stepping, to its first target.
I have run Accursed Halls at least three times, and it has hit a target once in all those runs. And that target had run in and stood next to it, so it got a quick attack off, and rolled fairly high on the dice, since it was a martial with a good AC.
Wights are, by their nature, ugly. And, to be honest, the wight is not the BBEG in the Accursed Halls. And, for Unruly, there is a Shadow in there in a different room.
Although, to be honest, the long room with skeleton archers at the far end is probably a lot more dangerous, despite having only the same to hit bonus, than the wight, since they start far enough away that they will get multiple rounds of attacks off.
The shadow would probably need to land at least three hits on the same level 1 PC to kill them. So as long as your level 1 characters have some appropriate spells (like Magic Weapon) it doesn't sound as dangerous as a wight.
Unless there's metagaming afoot, there's no way the PCs would know the wight has an instant-kill move.A minor point of fact: Knowledge (religion) of sufficiently high roll total would identify the creature as a wight, and reveal some number of pieces of "useful information" - such useful information as "it can kill people with a mere touch."
Currently there is a level 1 cleric of Saranrae in my group. His build includes Int 14 for a bonus of +2 on his Knowledge: Religion check. This puts him taking a 10 at:
10 +2(Int) +3(Class Skill Bonus) +1 (Skill Rank)= 16
This means on an average roll he might find out one of the more common aspects of the wight... like a mere touch equals instant death to weak mortals. If he rolled just a bit higher (18) that would DEFINITELY be one of the things he'd learn. Adventurers who survive wight attacks and tell the tale later tend to reiterate more frightening details...like a death touch.
Now in the case of my second example above the players were smart enough to use the resources of the town of Mistwatch, which had a church library. The Lore bonus of the town got added to their research and 2 characters worked together granting an Aid Another bonus. This resulted in a total of a 22 Knowledge check but I fudged it a little and gave them 3 items of lore on the wight in the tomb.
Knowledge is power in these situations kids; knowledge is power.
For a level 1 party, a CR3 enounter is by no means "overpowered."
However, a wight (Bestiary 1, p. 276) is CR3, but has the "Energy Drain" power. So a single touch by a wight would kill a character instantly at level 1.
So at what player character level is a wight actually CR3?
So, the thing with anything that gives Negative Levels on hit is the grand equalizer for things like DR, and PCs having a ton of HP. These guys are what you build into a level's design when you have living creatures with DR, or sythesists who have more HP than any group of enemies could possibly pump out in any reasonable amount of time.
A wight is a difficult encounter for a level 1 party, a hard encounter for a level 2 party, and a standard encounter for a level 3 party.
The reason it works is because, compared to most other CR 3 enemies, it isn't exactly that dangerous. Yes, during the 1 round that it should be able to actively attack the party it might be able to kill one of them. If it last for 2 rounds then it might be able to kill two of them, any more than that and it probably deserves to wipe the party for their inability to burst down a lone enemy. A decent mini-boss monster for a party of level 1s. A CR 4 is really needed to be good as a boss monster.
Any party with an optimized damage output should kill the wight almost instantly. If a party has its tanking fighter or paladin, its 2-handed barbarian or trap-finder, its wizard, and its cleric then the wight shouldn't survive the likely onslaught of
1d8+2 (1 handed long sword)
1d12+9 (2-handed power attack with great axe)
1d4+1 (Magic Missile)
1d6 (Channel energy)
If they all rolled 1s then they would do 19 damage
If they all rolled an average of 3 or higher then it would do 27 damage, and in the first round of combat kill the wight.
If the Sword-Board fighter rolled max and the 2-hander rolled max then they'd instantly kill it with their actions alone.
A single wight isn't an issue. As I said, it might kill one or two people, but if it kills more than that then it has been able to act for more than one or two rounds, and therefore it deserves its nice tasty adventurer meal.
'Might kill one or two people' is a pretty deadly encounter.
Even your optimized party might not roll so well on initiative, and the two-handed power attacker dies before he acted, and suddenly it's going to take them two or three rounds to kill it instead of one, and even if they avoid any more casualties the dead one rises as a wight...
Assuming an optimized party with optimal conditions is a fallacy because the power of any monster heavily depends on the circumstances of the encounter. A gelatinous cube is easy pickings in an open field, but a tight, dark corridor where a party member likely already bumped into it is a deadly encounter. What can be assumed is that an author would put a monster in a scenario where the monster would feel confident in fighting.
Unless there's metagaming afoot, there's no way the PCs would know the wight has an instant-kill move.A minor point of fact: Knowledge (religion) of sufficiently high roll total would identify the creature as a wight, and reveal some number of pieces of "useful information" - such useful information as "it can kill people with a mere touch."
Let's assume that a 1st level character has a +5 Knowledge (religion) -- fair assumption considering most divine classes tend to not have a high Intelligence. The DC to know a wight has a fatal energy attack is at least 13. A character needs to roll 8 or higher. That means there's still a 35% chance the party will not know information absolutely vital to their survival.
Yeah, the problem isn't one PC dying. The problem is one PC dying and then the party is facing two CR3 wights while down a member. It's a death spiral if it hits even one PC one time.
'Might kill one or two people' is a pretty deadly encounter.
Even your optimized party might not roll so well on initiative, and the two-handed power attacker dies before he acted, and suddenly it's going to take them two or three rounds to kill it instead of one, and even if they avoid any more casualties the dead one rises as a wight...
Which is sort of what makes it a good, heart pounding encounter--It can turn against you in a second.
WAY too many times fights end up being one-sided, granted the odds are stacked in the favor of the PCs as opposed to 3.5, but it is a scenario as to if it was a CR 3 zombie then the PCs would know they just have to beat on it. It is marginally more dangerous than a CR 1 zombie.
The wight, on the other hand, is one of the equalizer monsters. It is built to kill people, and it does so fairly regularly. As a regular rule of thumb, if the monster is alone and comes at you then dump everything you can into it if you haven't ran into it before.
It should only kill, at max, 1 person. If it kills more than 1 then the party is in some real trouble. When the first killed person raises it is time to start the withdraw runaway if there is anything to get behind to prevent charges.
Also, I just want to point something out: there are plenty of level 1 spells that can prevent the wight from even standing a chance. Chill Touch lasts until all of the charges are discharged, so a necromancer, knowing that in this place of undead, would likely have it cast just walking around with it. A panicked wight is a dead wight.
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Missile weapons. Spells. A good defensive fighter. There are so many ways for even a 1st lvl party to do it.
It might kill someone?
Ever see the damage an orc does on a crit with a greataxe?
Yes, if a party member rises as a second wight, that's bad...but what's the CR of 2 orc Bbn1s?
Level 1 parties are fragile. That's the way it is.
Also, I just want to point something out: there are plenty of level 1 spells that can prevent the wight from even standing a chance. Chill Touch lasts until all of the charges are discharged, so a necromancer, knowing that in this place of undead, would likely have it cast just walking around with it.
If you're prepared and you win initiative and you hit it with a touch attack and it fails a will save, yes.
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Missile weapons. Spells. A good defensive fighter. There are so many ways for even a 1st lvl party to do it.
It might kill someone?
Ever see the damage an orc does on a crit with a greataxe?
Yes, if a party member rises as a second wight, that's bad...but what's the CR of 2 orc Bbn1s?
Level 1 parties are fragile. That's the way it is.
A greataxe crit happens something less than 5% of the time. To get the same chance of dying against a Wight, you need 23 AC. A character with an 18 AC, much more reasonable for a level 1, dies 30% of the time. No save.
One's an unlucky die roll, the other is Russian Roulette with two chambers full.
There's a difference between challenging your players and murdering their PCs. At level 1, unless you make sure to give your PCs the opportunity to understand and prepare for what they're dealing with, you're murdering them.
Hold on there.
What's the AVERAGE damage of a Bbn1 orc with a greataxe?
Think it through.
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Less than the 20-something HP it takes to kill a PC, and the PC doesn't rise as an orc.
Less than the 20-something HP it takes to kill a PC, and the PC doesn't rise as an orc.
That would make the war at Lastwall SOOOOO one sided.
ORCs kill 200 men during the battle, orcs are now 200 orcs stronger!YEAH!
It would be like a mighty WAAAGH, but so one sided.
Makes me think of how I described it to one of my fellow players at my game:
"Why does everyone hate Orcs?"
<<Well, you see, Orcs tend to kill everything and everyone on sight just because.>>
"Well, how hard can it be to kill orcs?"
<<Well, there is the orcish nation in the Hold of Belkzen and it is essentially in open war with every country around it and isn't losing.>>
" . . . ."