The Arcanist: is it overpowered?

[voska66]

I don't see the Arcanist being a big issue. The Sorcerer can swap out spell too, just a little more time consuming and comes with small GP cost with the rules on retraining in the Ultimate Campaign. So being able to do this on a daily basis is nice but I suspect the effect in the game will largely be much the same as sorcerer. An Arcanist will get their favored spell list the prepare each day and do it by default. When the time comes that they need swap out spell they will do it with more easily than the sorcerer could. This is nice but a huge difference and it comes at cost.

So you give up the following:

Eschew Materials feat (You get this as feat choice with the bonus feat starting at 8th)
Arcane Bond
School Powers
Delays access to scribe scroll and 2 less bonus feats
No Bloodline Arcana
No blood line powers
No Blood feats
No Blood class skill
Access to blood line powers are limited and required a standard action to use
Wizard casting progression

In return you get to prepare your spells to spontaneously cast them, you get blood focus to access blood line powers at your Arcanist level activated as standard action. Blood focus can also be used to take once school to get +1 CL and DC. These are limited per day and leave you fatigued is you use all you points up in blood focus.

Seems balanced with the Sorcerer but weaker than the Wizard. Any class that delays you access to higher spell levels is weaker than the wizard in my opinion.

[Flintheart Glomgold]

I think calling the arcanist overpowered is a bit of a misstatement. It is not balanced when compared with the wizard and the sorcerer in that it does not give up enough from either class in trying to pair the two of them. It still gains access to bloodline powers and school powers which are the two major non spell casting abilities from both classes which is fine keep them.

But increased versatility of spell selection and a slight downgrade in number of spells per day compared to the sorcerer is honestly a bit better than what either class offers really. I also think that gaining bonus feats and scribe scroll are a tad unnecessary. Finally the mechanic for Blood pool seems to be a bit clunky, just gaining bloodline powers or the eldritch heritage feat at appropriate levels might be a more welcome solution.

In the end I would keep the school powers and sorcerer bloodline power and bonus spells and dump the bonus feats and scribe scroll. Finally keep the spell casting mechanics because it is a neat hybrid between the way both classes cast spells.

[Robert A Matthews]

Flintheart Glomgold wrote:

I think calling the arcanist overpowered is a bit of a misstatement. It is not balanced when compared with the wizard and the sorcerer in that it does not give up enough from either class in trying to pair the two of them. It still gains access to bloodline powers and school powers which are the two major non spell casting abilities from both classes which is fine keep them.

But increased versatility of spell selection and a slight downgrade in number of spells per day compared to the sorcerer is honestly a bit better than what either class offers really. I also think that gaining bonus feats and scribe scroll are a tad unnecessary. Finally the mechanic for Blood pool seems to be a bit clunky, just gaining bloodline powers or the eldritch heritage feat at appropriate levels might be a more welcome solution.

In the end I would keep the school powers and sorcerer bloodline power and bonus spells and dump the bonus feats and scribe scroll. Finally keep the spell casting mechanics because it is a neat hybrid between the way both classes cast spells.

I'm just joining this discussion because I am going to be playing an Arcanist tomorrow. I was under the impression that you choose a school of magic but you don't gain the school powers. Is this not the case?

[LazarX]

Robert A Matthews wrote:

I'm just joining this discussion because I am going to be playing an Arcanist tomorrow. I was under the impression that you choose a school of magic but you don't gain the school powers. Is this not the case?

Mostly correct. You are NOT a Wizard. You gain only what Blood Focus gives you when you use it.

[LazarX]

wraithstrike wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

Arcanists don't have to worry about picking spells carefully any more than Wizards and Sorcerers do.

I do think a player that knows what he is doing with regard to picking spells wont see a significant drop off, but he will still have to choose daily spells carefully. Either way I see the him doing better than he would with a sorcerer.

I want the arcanist to be able to prepare one less spell per day than it does, but I have already mentioned that. I will try to get some roll20 games going and have players fight against sorc, arcanist, and wizard of the same level and theme..

My guess is that the arcanist will be less effective as an NPC combat compared to the sorc and wizard at lower levels. It will come online around level 7. It will pass the sorc or wizard depending on how you play them around level 10, and be on par with the other around level 13. Once again playstyle is a factor.

As a PC it will surpass the sorcerer around level 7 IMHO, and start to challenge the wizard around the time it gets 7th level spells.

PS: This is all theorycrafting. :)

Good point. Lets not clutter the discussion with actual playtesting.

[Sporge]

This is a playtest. I am sure that the spells prepped list and may be the per day list will get a trimming. Repeatedly saying it is overpowered and the end of wizards and sorcerers will not avail you.

Also neglecting the power of school and bloodline powers and bloodline arcanas is a mistake. They can be used extremely effectively. Why not just have plus two dc to spells from enchantment all day, or always get the right energy type, or extra damage, or always act in the surprise round with an initiative bonus. Point is these things are majorly useful and to get bonus points to wiz and sorc still.

[Caedwyr]

Are scrolls expensive? Too expensive to make use of on a normal day of adventuring? Do people frequently run out of spells, scrolls, and wands on their wizard or sorcerer character?

[Deadkitten]

The number of spells known that a sorcerer has compared to an Arcanist is completely Irrelevent. The Arcanist has a spell book that lets him learn and cast ANY Sorcerer/Wizard spell in the game. Even if the Arcanist has fewer spell slots than a Sorcerer its a prepared caster that casts its spell spontaneously. That is one of the biggest ways to make a caster even more overpowered.

And also, a wizard who casts spontaneously is in no way balanced, I relation to other classes in the game.When it comes down to it bloodlines and schools don't matter much because it is the casting that makes these classes powerful.

I'm of the opinion the game does not need more full casters, its already unbalanced enough as it is. At least the Shaman was not doing anything terribly new to the system. However, the Arcanist completely Invalidates the Sorcerer mechanically speaking and possibly the Wizard, I'm of the opinion it does.

Now creating classes that completely invalidate the Rouge and the Monk are one thing, but one that invalidates the Sorcerer an arguably the Wizard is just a huge mistake. These were classes that worked fine, and now the Arcanist does what they can do better. There was no need for the class to exist but to cater to players who were too lazy to deal with limited spells known and limited spell slots.

[Deadkitten]

Playtests are where one should talk about how overpowered a class is because developers are more likely to listen and learn from feedback. They are not omnipotent, and thus, cannot know how one thing will impact the game.

[Deadkitten]

Yes, I am completely ignoring the school and bloodline powers because full casters do not need them to to be the most powerful classes in the game. They are candy to these classes and are only there so that Sorcerers and Wizards are not "spell-casting the class".

The Arcanist breaks full casters like Bane breaks Batman.
Or they are Batman, only with a Green lantern ring.

[Cap. Darling]

Deadkitten wrote:

Yes, I am completely ignoring the school and bloodline powers because full casters do not need them to to be the most powerful classes in the game. They are candy to these classes and are only there so that Sorcerers and Wizards are not "spell-casting the class".

The Arcanist breaks full casters like Bane breaks Batman.

Only for a time? And they will return stronger than ever?

[Dolinmite]

idk...i still dont see any reason to play this class instead of a wizard or sorc. but maybe its just me. so im done, just wish it had some pow and not just a quick puree on the blender.

[anarchitect]

To Lemmy and Others. I've played this exact style of casting in game. I'm not armchair theorizing. This is actual play experience.

It is only a SLIGHT increase in versatility.

You know who else gets to change their spell list daily? Wizards. So the daily changing spell list isn't a new or overpowered thing. What letting you spontaneously cast from that list does, is let memorize spells that you think you might want, but aren't sure. It means if that memorization of Touch of the Sea never becomes useful, you can use that slot to cast a magic missile instead. It means you never waste a spell slot of a useless spell. THAT'S IT.

In play, my standard wizard hasn't used every spell he's memorized in a day since about third level. And at the higher levels that matter, he's always memorized exactly what he's going to use, and used them. Increasing his efficiency at using his spell slots would have had practically no effect.

In play, my players using arcanist-style casting used it to do something a wizard can't do only a handful of times. The players who would have memorized multiples of the same spell simply cast multiples of the same spell, and rarely used their alternates. The kind of players who would memorize a bunch of different spells simply cast a bunch of different spells, and rarely doubled up.

Basically, I'm telling you all that while this seems like HUGE increase in versatility on paper, in play my experience is that it's only a slight increase. You will occasionally get in an extra fireball, or have the opportunity to use that cool 5th level spell you've never memorized before because you could never be sure enough it'd be useful. The option to do that came up about as often as bloodline powers or school powers do. Psychologically the effect is huge. In Play the effect is minor.

[Orthos]

andreww wrote:

Orthos wrote:

He's adding in favored classes, bloodline spells, and some bloodline arcana thing I'm not familiar with.

It's New Arcana, the ability that the Arcane Bloodline gets at level 9 You know that really obscure bloodline that appears second in the list in the Core Rule Book...

A bloodline I have never used. It doesn't interest me. At all. I love sorcerers, but Arcane bloodline has always bored me. "I'm a Sorcerer who's trying to be a Wizard, but without the cool thematic things like a magical spellbook. Oh but I have a familiar." There are so many other more interesting options.

So no, I'd never seen it before, or if I did I'd forgotten it.

[Deadkitten]

Slight increase in versatility? Any increase in versatility over and above what a Wizard can do is not needed in the game. Wizards are bad enough as it is and something that is better than them, even slightly is unnecessary.

[Lemmy]

anarchitect wrote:

To Lemmy and Others. I've played this exact style of casting in game. I'm not armchair theorizing. This is actual play experience.

So have I. Both in 3.5 and PF.

anarchitect wrote:

It is only a SLIGHT increase in versatility.

It's a HUGE increase in versatility. The character not having to predict how often each spell is necessary is not a slight advantage is whole other level of power! You know what is a "slight advantage"? One more spell slot per spell level.

anarchitect wrote:

You know who else gets to change their spell list daily? Wizards. So the daily changing spell list isn't a new or overpowered thing. What letting you spontaneously cast from that list does, is let memorize spells that you think you might want, but aren't sure. It means if that memorization of Touch of the Sea never becomes useful, you can use that slot to cast a magic missile instead. It means you never waste a spell slot of a useless spell. THAT'S IT.

That is a huge advantage. If a Wizards prepares a spell for a situation and doesn't use that spell, he effectively lost 1 spell slot. Arcanists don't have that problem. They never lost anything. They can still use that slot for something better.

"But he has to prepare the right spells" you say? Well, so do Wizards! And Sorcerers... Except Sorcerer "prepare" their spells once in a lifetime and have to live with its consequences.

This class makes Wizards, arguably the most powerful class in the whole game, obsolete for 60% of its career (1st, 19th and every even-numbered character level). More, if you go beyond 20th level. Sorcerers have it even worse. They are made obsolete through 100% of their career.

[Peter Stewart]

Lemmy wrote:

Now, reduce that list to just the top 3 highest spell levels. Because really, the ones bellow that barely matter. You'll have too many of them anyway, and they are unlikely to be actually useful in most encounters. For the number of spells to matter, Arcanists should have much fewer spells. About 2~3 less than they have. But that would make a boring class to play.

Sure. 14th level

Arcanist has a total of 6 spells memorized of 5th, 6th, and 7th level.

(Human) non-arcane bloodline Sorcerer has a total of 12 known spells of 5th, 6th, and 7th level. Literally twice as many.

If you are curious the wizard likely has 14.

[Peter Stewart]

Bill Dunn wrote:

Matthew Trent wrote:

Emphatically Not.

In fact I consider it worse than both Wizard and Sorcerer most of the time.

Supporting argument? Why is it worse than the wizard and sorcerer most of the time?

Basically they don't have enough spells memorized at any given time to cover all the bases that you probably want them to cover. This is especially true of their higher level spells (where they have 1-3 of each - typically 1-2), but also true of lower levels where they are short 2-4 appropriate spells of each level. If they get caught unprepared (e.g. having prepared divination / utility magic in a combat day) they can end up tremendously weaker than either a wizard or a sorcerer would be in the same circumstances.

[Lemmy]

You do realize that not all Sorcerers are human, right?

You do realize that if you have to use the most powerful option of class X just to not be overshadowed by class Y, that means class Y is far more powerful than class X.

At best, you're arguing that a very optimized Sorcerer is not overshadowed as badly as all other sorcerers are.

[Lemmy]

Now, let me say this once again: I like the idea proposed by the Arcanist. A guy that mixes spontaneous and prepared casting.

However, fusing the two styles does not work. It completely obsoletes Sorcerer (and Wizards, most of the time). And that's before adding unrivaled metamagic mastery and the ability to raise the CL and save DC of your spells (which is something absolutely amazing for every caster).

[Peter Stewart]

wraithstrike wrote:

I ignored the bloodline spells because you dont get to choose them, so they are not much of a factor, and not every race is human so you can't really include that(being human.

So, what you are saying is toss out major class features of the sorcerer, toss out their strongest option in terms of flexibility, and then the arcanist is stronger on the front of flexibility? Sure. I'll buy that.

I'd be more open to the whole 'toss out favorite class options' argument if this argument was being made in the context of general play and one being an edge stronger, but if you want to compare an optimized arcanist with an optimized spell list you should proceed forward with the same level of optimization for each for the sorcerer towards the same end.

That said, I think there still remain plenty of options for a sorcerer even outside of this. Specialized sorcerers can put up DCs 6 points higher in their area of specialization than arcanists. They can dish out 40 more damage a spell. They can have significantly stronger passive defenses. There are plenty of reasons why a sorcerer is not 'obsolete'.

[Sean K Reynolds]

Thread closed. Please post your comments in the stickied Arcanist thread, otherwise we'll end up with a hundred parallel discussion threads.