+5... By level 3 Acrobatics should be providing an additional +1
Also, Dizzying Defense is pretty bad. Total defense can't be combined with Combat Expertise or fighting defensively — And because Crane Style is so good, everyone will be fighting defensively for +4 AC by this level anyway.
+2 Base, +1 Crane Style, +1 Acrobatics. The important thing about the Crane Style line is that it reduces the penalty to something you can work with. And it is a far better Parry and Riposte mechanic than the Swashbuckler currently has.
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I am still pushing hard on my Swashbuckler to level him up. Currently play testing him in the Tier 4-5 section of Pathfinder Society.
Things are starting to feel pretty good now. My damage is a little less than most the barbarians, paladins and fighters that I am encountering; but thats ok. So since my last post this is what I have done.
I did dip at lvl 3 for 1 level into Bard (Dervish of Dawn) to get Dervish Dance and spent the feat on Arcane Strike. This really did feel like a worthwhile dip for my character, not only for RolePlay reasons but it did significantly increase my damage. Combining the damage I now have from Dervish Dance, Precise Strike (not enhanced via itself) and Arcane Strike; my damage as said earlier is around the same number as the melee combatants now. This is a good thing, as I was trailing significantly behind til level 4.
This may be an exploit, but it does make me feel like I am playing smart. So what it is, is that once I get up to two panache points I can spare, I intentionally provoke an npc into taking an attack of opportunity against me with a move action. When it swings at me, I declare I am parrying and if succesful follow it up by a riposte. I finish up my turn next to it still and then do a standard action to hit it. Overall I feel kind of good, I normally can avoid the damage some of the time and protect my comrades by eatting up its attack of opportunity while doing damage. But this trick is going to die out son enough as npc start getting more than one attack.
Speaking of more than one attacks, please consider changing Parry/Riposte to one attack based on a full round action for all attacks. Basically how it is written now we can either burn up panache quickly to do some mad damage in response to being attacked. Particularly for things that are attacking with natural attacks.
My suggestion for Parry/Riposte is that it should be changed as follows:
1. It can not be used when one triggers attack of opportunities from npc. Personally I feel really that I am taking advantage of the gm/npc when I do so and forcing them into a box they shouldn't have to be in.
2. Please change Parry from each attack, to being based on the full round action. So if npc with lets say 1 bite, 4 claws attacks me; instead of having to burn 5 panache to try to avoid it, how about change it that it burns 1 panache and all attacks that surpass the parry goes through to me. This would help save the economy of parry at the moment, which is extremely expensive to use with little return. This would def help make swashbucklers have better survivability.
And lastly my swash buckler still feels super squishy. And I have high concerns still about my wisdom/fort saves. Also I am concerned my damage is not going to keep up, even with it steadily increasing each round.
And for anyone curious here is my basic information for the character I am playing:
Race: Ifrit
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 08
Cha 18
01 Swashbuckler Combat Reflexes
02 Swashbuckler
03 Bard (Dervish of the Dawn): Class-Dervish Dance, Feat: Arcane Strike
04 Swashbuckler
If you both use Power Attack or Piranha Strike and are adding your accuracy stat to damage, while taking Specialization and the like, you will get very different results than Debbie. In fact, Debbie seems to be intentionally avoiding all feats that add to damage--Googleshng has posted entire builds, which is awesome, so look at them carefully. Debbie doesn't even take Weapon Specialization or even Weapon Focus. Defense-wise, a quick glance also notices that Debbie has spent 4000 gold on Bracers of Armor +2, when a 10 gp Leather Armor is equally powerful except against incorporeal touch attacks, and Debbie has 7 Wisdom. EDIT: Didn't see the total +7 Dex because it was in temporary modifiers, so actually it's 1 AC better. +1 Mithral Chain Shirt is still 2 AC better for half the cost and no ACP. Wand of Mage Armor with an arcane buddy to cast is 2 AC better for even less.Debbie uses the bracers of Armour because they weigh 1 pound and leather armour weighs 15 pounds. Debbie only has a Strength of 9 and therefore a carrying capacity of 30 pounds or less. Leather armour would be half her carrying capacity.
The rapier is 2 pounds, bracers are 1 pound, buckler is 5 pounds, belt is 1 pound, cloak is 1 pound. That's 10 pounds already. A traveler's outfit is 5 pounds, an Explorer's outfit is 8 pounds, so if we use a traveler's outfit, we still have 15 pounds left. A backpack is 2 pounds, a bedroll is 5 pounds, a blanket is 3 pounds. That leaves her just 5 pounds to carry around food, water, and money. And clearly, not enough weight for leather armour.
I've never seen a party where the 9 Strength person had to carry a bedroll, a blanket, food, water, or money. The weight issue is pretty legit. Looks like she should go the mithral chain shirt route then. 12.5, so it looks legit if she isn't carrying any gear that there's no reason to carry.
The wand of mage armour would be better, but that requires then, that you're on a team with an arcane caster with access to mage armour.
Yup.
She doesn't have Power Attack because she's not strong enough, she doesn't have Piranha Strike because she doesn't have Weapon Finesse.
This is true. She could have easily done 13 Str and 9 Int if she wanted Power Attack, and that even gives more Carrying Capacity and increases her offense before agile.
Combat Expertise looks to be taken as a per-requisite to Butterfly Strikes (Which is a very nice feat if you have other fighters)
I love Butterfly's Sting. My ninja has it and I've used it to give crits to smiting paladins with lances on their first hit against an evil outsider. It rocks! But if you have that feat, you really need to count all the damage from other people's crits you caused with Sting as damage that your build caused (similarly, to really determine a Bard's worth, you need to count the expected number of attacks of your allies that will hit because of your song, as well as their extra damage from the song, which demonstrates that bards are amazing in a party with a lot of warrior sorts).
Race: Halfling
No Dumped Stats
Str: 10 (12 - 2)
Dex: 20 (15 + 1 + 2 + 2)
Con: 14
Int: 11
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 (14 + 2)
Feats:
1 - Weapon Focus - Rapier
3 - Combat Reflexes
4 - Weapon Specialization - Rapier
5 - Toughness
Traits:
+1 Will
+1 Fort
+2 Belt of Dex - 4k
+1 Rapier - 2k
+1 Mithral Chainshirt - 2k
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor - 2k
+1 Ring of Deflection - 2k
+1 Buckler - 1k
+1 Cloak of Resistance - 1k
Acrobatics: +11
Bluff: +9
Climb: +4
Diplomacy: +9
Escape Artist: +11
Intimidate: +12 (-4 versus Medium size or larger)
Knowledge Nobility: +4
Perform (Swordplay): +9
Ride: +11
Sleight of Hand: +11
Stealth: +9
Swim: +4
[spoiler=Defenses]
HP: 58
AC: 26
Touch: 19
Flat-Foot: 18
Fort: +7
Ref: +12
Will: +5
My Comments
The class actually felt pretty good - Marra felt defensively equivalent to a heavily armored sword and board fighter, minus the crappy touch AC, ACP, and move speed penalty (the move speed penalty would go away at 7th level for a fighter). On the down side, her fort save was a bit of a liability, but no less than Reflex often is for a Fighter.
In terms of damage, Marra felt very equal to the same heavily armored sword and board fighter. I had considered building a human instead of a Halfling, going for 13 Strength, and using my bonus feat for Power Attack. This would have resulted in a -1 to attack and armor class from behind medium instead of small, but an effective +2 bonus to damage. When power attacking, Marra would have taken an additional -2 penalty to attack rolls when using power attack, but the +4 bonus to damage would have been nice. All in all, the human + power attack path probably would have been a more optimal route, since Marra rarely missed with her attacks.
In terms of skills and out of combat utilizy, Marra was clearly superior to a Fighter. 4 + Int modifier skills helped significantly, as did the fact that many more skills are based on Dexterity than Strength and the lack of an armor check penalty. Also, being a Halfling helped out Marra's Charisma and her Stealth bonus, since Stealth isn't a class skill for Swashbucklers (this is probably ok.)
Now, for the controversial topic (which I intentionally avoided for my build to help prove a point) - Dexterity to Damage... As written currently, Dexterity to damage is quite frankly NOT needed for the Swashbuckler. Marra proved to me that as a base class, the Swashbuckler is fully capable of fulfilling the Dexterity based melee class without being substandard in combat, while adding more out of combat than a standard fighter. Had Marra went for Dervish Dance, she'd have sacrificed her Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization feats - effectively a -1 to attack rolls for a +3 to damage rolls. Since this swap is equal to two handed power attacking, it's a great (unneeded) trade that will only get better with levels. Also, had I went for a total optimization route, I'd have dumped Strength to a 7 and boosted Dex to a 17 - boosting Marra's Dexterity modifier by an additional +1, making up for the loss of attack rolls and giving another +1 to damage rolls.
If the Swashbuckler were to be rebuild by Paizo to include Dexterity to damage, I would suggest having it replace the Precise Strike ability. Giving the ability at first level and letting it scale by +1 per level up to a maximum of the character's Dexterity modifier. Also, this would probably allow the damage to be non-precision typed. The problem with this is that it would 100% force the Swashbuckler to focus Dexterity, and it would probably actually reduce the effectiveness of the Swashbuckler, since you can't fully scale a Swashbuckler's Dexterity modifier at a rate of +1 per level, so it will really start to plane off between 4th and 6th level, depending on the build. Also, this sort of marginalizes strength, though probably not completely, since Power Attack seems like it would be a worthwhile pickup for the class, though you probably would not use it against every single enemy.
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Dex to damage is not about Need, and it isn't about damage output either.
let me say that again in big text:
The swashbuckler needs to add dex to damage because if it does not, it is not a dex-based class. Building a dex based swashbuckler with the class as it stands IS A TRAP!!!!!
If you can have a 22 dex and a 12 str or a 12 dex and a 22 str, you are a better fighter if you take the 22 strength.
This is the problem.
So lets take yet another look at what precise strike deals with. Because it ONLY deals with the one-handed restriction.
Level 10 fighter with a 22 strength and a two-handed weapon.
Damage granted by "second hand". From strength, +3. From power attack +3. From weapon die +1d6. Average: 9.5. ALL of this is multiplied on a crit.
Level 10 Swashbuckler with a 22 strength and a rapier.
Damage granted by precise strike: 10.
There it is... that is ALL that precise strike is doing.
As for dex to damage instead of strength, all this does is flip the optimal build from being High strength, low dex to being high dex low strength. That is all. Nothing else. It allows the ability scores of the characters that choose this class to match the theme of a Swashbuckler instead of a big hulking brute.
If you want a dex based swashbuckler, then it needs to be dex based all around, NOT HALF WAY.
Lord Malkov, please post the full build for a Strength based Swashbuckler so we can see the difference in stats. (Hint, it will take a hit to AC, a hit to initiative, a hit to Reflex Save, and a hit to many thematically appropriate skills...) Also, comparing a Swashbuckler offensively to a Two-Handed Weapon, Strength based Fighter neglects even more significant build differences.
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Additionally, can we stop saying ridiculous things like "adding dex to damage forces the swashbuckler to focus on dex"?
This is just absurd. It is like saying that because of Rage a Barbarian is forced into using strength. It is true, but who cares? That is the WHOLE POINT OF THE CLASS!!!!!
Frankly, a melee fighter is "forced into focusing on strength". Oh no! Lets rewrite the class! Clearly it is too pigeonholed!
Come on guys. The entire reason to make the swashbuckler is to make a finesse fighter that actually works. If things stay the way they are then this class is decent in a game that allows Dervish Dancing (although this actually DOES limit them) or a game that allows the Agile enchantment.
If only there were some OTHER class that used its accuracy stat to derive its bonus damage... like a strength based fighter or a gunslinger. Too bad swashbuckler couldn't be based on THOSE classes.
Dex to damage is not about Need, and it isn't about damage output either.
let me say that again in big text:
The swashbuckler needs to add dex to damage because if it does not, it is not a dex-based class. Building a dex based swashbuckler with the class as it stands IS A TRAP!!!!!
If you can have a 22 dex and a 12 str or a 12 dex and a 22 str, you are a better fighter if you take the 22 strength.
This is the problem.
So lets take yet another look at what precise strike deals with. Because it ONLY deals with the one-handed restriction.
Level 10 fighter with a 22 strength and a two-handed weapon.
Damage granted by "second hand". From strength, +3. From power attack +3. From weapon die +1d6. Average: 9.5. ALL of this is multiplied on a crit.Level 10 Swashbuckler with a 22 strength and a rapier.
Damage granted by precise strike: 10.There it is... that is ALL that precise strike is doing.
As for dex to damage instead of strength, all this does is flip the optimal build from being High strength, low dex to being high dex low strength. That is all. Nothing else. It allows the ability scores of the characters that choose this class to match the theme of a Swashbuckler instead of a big hulking brute.
If you want a dex based swashbuckler, then it needs to be dex based all around, NOT HALF WAY.
If you want a weapon that equalizes on number of crits with a rapier (like falchion) for the fighter, it's actually a matter of 7.5 vs 10 rather than 9.5 vs 10. And the Swash can double precise strike for 1 panache, gaining 1 panache back on a crit, which in my playtest experience so far has been better than doubling on a crit.
What you've said about dex to damage not increasing damage but just changing the optimal DPR from Strength to Dex is completely true. Here's the thing, though--it's bad for the game if a dex-based character does the same damage as a two-handed brute, pure and simple because Dex is such a powerful stat that adds elsewhere in the character's abilities. To maintain balance, Dex-focused builds need to do somewhat less damage than Strength-focused builds to make up for the increase of Initiative, AC, Reflex, skills, etc that Strength doesn't provide.
I still maintain that Temeryn's idea where you add neither Str nor Dex to damage (and buff Precise Strike to multiply on a crit) could do a good job in encouraging Dex without overshadowing two-handed warriors too much. But you're right that pretty much nothing else will stop a build that uses one stat for both accuracy and damage from outdamaging a build that uses two different stats (like a Str-to-damage Weapon Finesse character).
Initiative is nice, but the Reflex save boost is almost overkill. AC from Dexterity doesn't keep up with that of Heavy Armor. Granted it's Touch AC, but while Touch AC is your only defense against some painful spells, enemies attacking your regular AC are much more common.
The Dex Fighter isn't even really ahead on skills, because a high-Strength, Charisma-dumping build is SAD enough to afford a little Int.
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If only there were some OTHER class that used its accuracy stat to derive its bonus damage... like a strength based fighter or a gunslinger. Too bad swashbuckler couldn't be based on THOSE classes.
The argument against giving Dexterity to damage is that the stat already rewards characters very highly. Here is the Math as I see it.
Dexterity: Six d20 based rolls (or d20 roll based defenses), 7 Skills
• Armor Class
• Touch Armor Class
• Ranged Attack Rolls (with MOST weapons)
• Initiative
• Reflex Saves
• Melee Attack Rolls (with 1 Feat investment)
• 7 Skills
Strength: One d20 based roll, Damage rolls, 2 skills
• Melee Attack Rolls (Can be converted to Dex with a 1 feat investment)
• Melee Damage Rolls (x1.5 if two-handed)
• 2 Skills
I think that a stat (Dexterity) which is already modifying more than triple the rolls and more than triple the skills should not be allowed to roll the LAST remaining attribute into itself through a feat.
Okay, I can show my work
Here is a thematically defunct swashbuckler that still works 100% as a frontline fighter.
Level 12 Dwarf Swashbuckler (20pt)
Str:22
Dex:14
Con:18
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:6
Feats:
going pretty basic here because I dont feel like doing much more
1 Weapon Focus (heavy pick)
3 Power Attack
4 Weapon Specialization (heavy pick)
5 Medium Armor Proficiency
6 Heavy Armor Proficiency
7 Furious Focus
8 Greater Weapon Focus
9 Steel Soul
10 Great Fortitude
11 Iron Will
12 Greater Weapon Specialization (Heavy Pick)
Gear:
+3 Heavy Pick
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 cloak of resistance
+3 Mithral Full Plate
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armor
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier
Feather step slippers (or boots of speed)
Whatever else you might like... this is the relevant stuff.
DEFENSES:
HP: 130
AC: 27 (10 base, +12 armor, +2 dex, +1 ring, +1 ammy, +1 hat)
Fort:+13 (+15 vs spells)
Ref:+13 (+17 vs. spells)
Will:+9 (+11 vs. spells)
CMD:30
OFFENSES:
BAB:+12/+7/+2
Full Attack with precise strike, using a heavy pick in two hands (this is not precluded by the ability as written)
[+12 bab, -4 power attack, +2 weapon training, +3 weapon, +2 feats, +6 strength = +21]
Full Attack: +25/+16/+11 19-20(x4)
Damage: 1d6+42 (+12 precise strike, +9 strength, +12 power attack, +3 weapon, +2 training, +4 spec.)
So there you go... a fully strength based Swashbuckler with all around decent saves, that is using a heavy pick to swing for 1d6+42, wears full plate with an AC of 27 and generally fails in every way to match the theme of a swashbuckler.
Switch out the armor proficiencies for something else, and flip flop the strength and dex. Then use a rapier in one hand. keep all the other feats the same and grab a +3 chain shirt instead of the full plate.
Then you have a swashbuckler that has the same attack bonuses, hits for 1d6 + 31 (loses 11 damage per hit) and has an AC of 29 (5 less from armor, 4 more from dex, and 3 more from nimble)
His reflex save is also +4 higher... but frankly I could give a hoot about reflex saves.
So... +4 reflex saves and +2 AC and you lose 11 damage per hit (and the ability to use furious focus for the first swing)
DPR hit of about 25 damage per round.
Sooooo yeah.
Okay, I can show my work
Here is a thematically defunct swashbuckler that still works 100% as a frontline fighter.** spoiler omitted **
So there you go... a fully strength based Swashbuckler with all around decent saves, that is using a heavy pick to swing for 1d6+42, wears full plate with an AC of 27 and generally fails in every way to match the theme of a swashbuckler.
Switch out the armor proficiencies for something else, and flip flop the strength and dex. Then use a rapier in one hand. keep all the other feats the same and grab a +3 chain shirt instead of the full plate.
Then you have a swashbuckler that has the same attack bonuses, hits for 1d6 + 31 (loses 11 damage per hit) and has an AC...
I posted a 6th level Swashbuckler build that I played for 7 hours, which I felt represented the class well. It's hard to compare that to a 12th level Swashbuckler...
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MechE, I think you have illustrated quite perfectly the one thing that has been bothering me about the arguments to let a swashbuckler apply dexterity to damage. This is also the same problem I have with dervish dance, and to a lesser degree agile weapons.
I think the swashbuckler should be less about doing damage and more about avoiding it through some kind of bonus to AC, access to certain feats, or pinache deeds that aren't costly or a headache to manage.
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MechE, I think you have illustrated quite perfectly the one thing that has been bothering me about the arguments to let a swashbuckler apply dexterity to damage. This is also the same problem I have with dervish dance, and to a lesser degree agile weapons.
I think the swashbuckler should be less about doing damage and more about avoiding it through some kind of bonus to AC, access to certain feats, or pinache deeds that aren't costly or a headache to manage.
The problem with this is, without doing damage, the Swashbuckler isn't killing enemies, meaning the enemy is still around to damage the Swashbuckler or allies.
If the Swashbuckler as amazing defenses, but doesn't deal much damage, then he is less of a threat. Same problem Monks can have too. Great defense, almost little offense (without system mastery).
So, the question is, for the monster, if you have two targets, one of them is a guy that seems to dodge all your attacks, but isn't hurting you, while another gets hit a lot, and hits hard, which person do you focus your attacks on? If you kill the guy hurting you, then you can focus on the others, and then, eventually, that dodgy bastard.
The Swashbuckler needs to be able to hurt people enough to pose a threat, while also being able to remain relatively undamaged. If he can't threaten the creatures, he can't do his job. Sure, he survives the longest, but what's the point of surviving if everyone else is dead and you've ultimately failed in your quest?
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The issue I have is that a swashbuckler should be dex based... and as it stands, they really aren't. Dexterity is NOT their main stat. The truth is that if this were the case, you would actually see a bunch of Dex based Core Fighters running around.
Because Dex adds to a lot more skills and AC and reflex saves right? And hey, fighters don't even get a strong reflex save! By this logic that you are applying to the swashbuckler, why are all these fighters using strength instead of just grabbing weapon finesse at 1st and getting all of those super duper bonuses?
And fighters can even keep their full dex bonus when wearing heavy armor! Man what have all these strength fighters been doing with their lives!!
In all seriousness though, all melee based characters are strength based unless they get a specific ability that lets them use a different stat for both strength and damage. Other builds can operate, but they are never the best builds. This is the sad truth for rogues as well. They are better off using big two-handed weapons with a high strength. Skills will come. Eventually all skill checks become trivial anyway. And its not like anyone is tanking dex.. just not focusing on it.
For once, I would like the optimal way to build a thematic class to actually match up with its theme.
Just take the Aldori Swordlord's Deft Strike ability and copy it verbatim. Add dex to damage instead of strength. You do not get 1-1/2 times when using two-hands.
This isn't overpowered, it just makes the class work best when characters are built to match the theme. This isn't pigeonholing anyone any more than we are already pigeonholing archers as dex based or 2-hand fighters as strength based.
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MechE, I think you have illustrated quite perfectly the one thing that has been bothering me about the arguments to let a swashbuckler apply dexterity to damage. This is also the same problem I have with dervish dance, and to a lesser degree agile weapons.
And despite the voices of many people on these forums, it's not just the two of us who believe Dex to damage is unnecessary. From what I understand, Paizo's primary developers also believe that it's unnecessary and that is why it's not currently a part of the class. They may very well change their mind, and I would not be heartbroken if they did. But from my experience, it is not "OMG NECESSARY" to make the build function, as many other posters seem to be implying.
I think the swashbuckler should be less about doing damage and more about avoiding it through some kind of bonus to AC, access to certain feats, or pinache deeds that aren't costly or a headache to manage.
With Parry and Riposte, the Swashbuckler already has a way to do this. Though Panache is limited, in my experience (at playing beyond 5th level with a Rapier) you really do crit or reduce enemies to zero rather often, so Panache refills on a regular basis. Also, since you can use a Buckler and get a class based boost to AC, you are on the more defensive side of the average melee combatant - especially in regards to nasty touch attach spells.
The problem with this is, without doing damage, the Swashbuckler isn't killing enemies, meaning the enemy is still around to damage the Swashbuckler or allies.
If the Swashbuckler as amazing defenses, but doesn't deal much damage, then he is less of a threat. Same problem Monks can have too. Great defense, almost little offense (without system mastery).
The Swashbuckler may not be an offensive beast, but his damage very closely matches that of a sword and board fighter, as does his armor class. And that was at level 6 - his damage would rather quickly outstrip the sword and board fighter beyond that level. Quite frankly, I don't feel like damage is a problem that the Swashbuckler really has - certainly not like the monk.
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Dex gives bonuses to more things, but one very important one (Damage) is derived from Strength in both Melee and Range. This is why Switch Hitter Rangers value Strength over Dexterity even taking all of the above into account. Keep in mind that the Strength-using, Charisma-dumping, Heavy Armor-wearing Swashbuckler posted earlier in the thread is in some ways a more effective build than the high-Dex high-Cha standard that the class is trying to steer us toward. That's because this class is broken, and not in a powerful way.
And the argument is moot - There is already a feat to gain Dexterity to Damage, it works with the Swashbuckler, and it can't be un-printed.
The problem has been, how do we prevent everyone from taking Dervish Dance, without gimping the class, and without pushing everyone towards Strength? Precise Strike is there for the exact reason that if you want to be Dex-based, you need Dex-to-Damage, or some mechanic that matches it so closely as makes no difference.
Really, this is boiling down down to "Give them their level to damage, fine, but don't let them add Dex to damage because Dex has too many things!"
You know what, I'm going to invoke 3e's Godwin's Law equivalent: The Wizard's Intelligence score fuels his Spellcasting (the best class feature in the game). It boosts his Spell DCs, Spells Per Day, Spellcraft, Knowledge Skills, Skill Points, and (with traits) even his UMD, Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. Nobody ever complains that this is pigeon-holing the Wizard into prioritizing Intelligence.
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I posted a 6th level Swashbuckler build that I played for 7 hours, which I felt represented the class well. It's hard to compare that to a 12th level Swashbuckler...Okay, I can show my work
Here is a thematically defunct swashbuckler that still works 100% as a frontline fighter.** spoiler omitted **
So there you go... a fully strength based Swashbuckler with all around decent saves, that is using a heavy pick to swing for 1d6+42, wears full plate with an AC of 27 and generally fails in every way to match the theme of a swashbuckler.
Switch out the armor proficiencies for something else, and flip flop the strength and dex. Then use a rapier in one hand. keep all the other feats the same and grab a +3 chain shirt instead of the full plate.
Then you have a swashbuckler that has the same attack bonuses, hits for 1d6 + 31 (loses 11 damage per hit) and has an AC...
That really isn't helpful.
You wanted numbers, I gave you numbers. They are pretty clear numbers as well. 11 damage per attack is VERY significant. To put it in different terms, the strength swashbuckler in this particular case is (using average damage) dealing 30% more damage per hit
That is a problem. The best swashbuckler should be a dexterous one.
Taking dex, and adding it to damage really doesn't make this a more powerful combat class in any way shape or form. What it does, is effectively boost the class's dex based skills, reflex saves and AC when lightly armored.
Frankly, they just need to restrict the dex to damage in three ways.
1) Only applies when wearing light or no armor
2) Only applies to light or one-handed piercing weapons
3) Is not multiplied by 1-1/2 when using two-hands
You will not see some silly boost in damage unless you fell into the dexterity trap to begin with. It is a trap. Build a swashbuckler, and I will build it better by using strength over dex.
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MechE, I think you have illustrated quite perfectly the one thing that has been bothering me about the arguments to let a swashbuckler apply dexterity to damage. This is also the same problem I have with dervish dance, and to a lesser degree agile weapons.And despite the voices of many people on these forums, it's not just the two of us who believe Dex to damage is unnecessary. From what I understand, Paizo's primary developers also believe that it's unnecessary and that is why it's not currently a part of the class. They may very well change their mind, and I would not be heartbroken if they did. But from my experience, it is not "OMG NECESSARY" to make the build function, as many other posters seem to be implying.
I think the swashbuckler should be less about doing damage and more about avoiding it through some kind of bonus to AC, access to certain feats, or pinache deeds that aren't costly or a headache to manage.With Parry and Riposte, the Swashbuckler already has a way to do this. Though Panache is limited, in my experience (at playing beyond 5th level with a Rapier) you really do crit or reduce enemies to zero rather often, so Panache refills on a regular basis. Also, since you can use a Buckler and get a class based boost to AC, you are on the more defensive side of the average melee combatant - especially in regards to nasty touch attach spells.
The Swashbuckler may not be an offensive beast, but his damage very closely matches that of a sword and board fighter, as does his armor class. And that was at level 6 - his damage would rather...The problem with this is, without doing damage, the Swashbuckler isn't killing enemies, meaning the enemy is still around to damage the Swashbuckler or allies.
If the Swashbuckler as amazing defenses, but doesn't deal much damage, then he is less of a threat. Same problem Monks can have too. Great defense, almost little offense (without system mastery).
Hold on, hold on...
The swashbuckler does not have a damage problem. Not even a little. This class can swing like a mack truck. That is in NO way why I am arguing for a Dex to Damage feature.
My problem is that there is no justification for taking dexterity as the Swashbuckler's main stat over strength. Ignore for a moment the fact that they can use Dexterity to hit. Just remove weapon finesse from the equation. Now look at the class with these eyes.
Why does it need to focus on dexterity? Just because it throws a feature out there that gives the option does not mean it is the best option. If I gave every Barbarian weapon finesse at level 2, I doubt they would be fooled by it. The same can be said for Nimble. You get +5 AC across your career. This is just the difference between a chain shirt and full-plate being made up for.
Currently, a Swashbuckler can either focus on a stat that affects +hit and +dmg or one that only affects +hit. That is the same choice every fighter has, and they maintain the exact same effects with regard to reflex save, skills, AC and combat reflexes. And yet, most fighters with melee weapons are gunning for strength.
There is nothing in this class that changes that paradigm.
That really isn't helpful.I posted a 6th level Swashbuckler build that I played for 7 hours, which I felt represented the class well. It's hard to compare that to a 12th level Swashbuckler...
12th level character build...
I posted a 6th level build and asked for a comparative build... Maybe I didn't specifically say that I wanted it at 6th level, but I thought that was obvious. Posting a 12th level Strength based build without the corresponding Dex based build (which I had intended to provide) is not helpful.
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State of the Swashbuckler - Dexterity versus Strength
• Can you build a Strength based Swashbuckler - yes.
• Will it out damage a Dexterity based Swashbuckler - yes.
• Will it's armor class (regular and touch) be equivalent - no.
• Will it's Reflex Save be equivalent - no.
• Will it's initiative modifier be equivalent - no.
• Will it's thematically appropriate skill bonuses (all 7 of them) be equivalent - no.
This is the CHOICE that must be made when building the Swashbuckler. Do you want those extra 3 to 6 points of damage that are achieved by building for Strength, or would you rather have the extra 3 to 6 points to regular armor class, touch armor class, initiative modifier, reflex saving throw, and 7 thematically appropriate skills?
Giving the Swashbuckler a built in "replace Strength with Dexterity for damage purposes" removes this choice and makes ONE clear Swashbuckler build that will be pretty much universal. For this reason, I expect the Paizo developers to NOT give the Swashbuckler a mechanic that allows it to use it's Dexterity modifier for damage and instead build the damage into the the class... Much as they've already done.
Assuming Paizo sticks with this current status quo (no Dexterity to damage mechanic for the Swashbuckler...) Many players will have nothing to complain about, since many GMs allow every Paizo published (splat) book and Dexterity to damage can be achieved through the Agile property or the Dervish Dance feat. For players who's GMs do not allow every Paizo published (splat) book, then sure, your damage will be lower. However, since nobody else has access to the significant jump in additional build options (and power) that these books offer, the character will likely be on even footing with the rest of your party. In fact, the character would only be behind (power wise) when comparing the character to a "forum standard build", which is not seated at the table next to you, and therefore irrelevant.
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State of the Swashbuckler - Dexterity versus Strength
• Can you build a Strength based Swashbuckler - yes.
• Will it out damage a Dexterity based Swashbuckler - yes.
• Will it's armor class (regular and touch) be equivalent - no.
• Will it's Reflex Save be equivalent - no.
• Will it's initiative modifier be equivalent - no.
• Will it's thematically appropriate skill bonuses (all 7 of them) be equivalent - no.This is the CHOICE that must be made when building the Swashbuckler. Do you want those extra 3 to 6 points of damage that are achieved by building for Strength, or would you rather have the extra 3 to 6 points to regular armor class, touch armor class, initiative modifier, reflex saving throw, and 7 thematically appropriate skills?
Giving the Swashbuckler a built in "replace Strength with Dexterity for damage purposes" removes this choice and makes ONE clear Swashbuckler build that will be pretty much universal. For this reason, I expect the Paizo developers to NOT give the Swashbuckler a mechanic that allows it to use it's Dexterity modifier for damage and instead build the damage into the the class... Much as they've already done.
Assuming Paizo sticks with this current status quo (no Dexterity to damage mechanic for the Swashbuckler...) Many players will have nothing to complain about, since many GMs allow every Paizo published (splat) book and Dexterity to damage can be achieved through the Agile property or the Dervish Dance feat. For players who's GMs do not allow every Paizo published (splat) book, then sure, your damage will be lower. However, since nobody else has access to the significant jump in additional build options (and power) that these books offer, the character will likely be on even footing with the rest of your party. In fact, the character would only be behind (power...
Again... every single Ranger and Fighter has been looking at this choice for years.
• Can you build a Dexterity based Fighter - yes.
• Will it out damage a Strength based Fighter - no.
• Will it's armor class (regular and touch) be better - yes.
• Will it's Reflex Save be better - yes.
• Will it's initiative modifier be better - yes.
• Will it get a higher bonus to those same 7 skills - yes.
And yet... with all that listed out in front of us, we are faced with the fact that most fighters and most melee rangers are built on Strength and not Dexterity.
They face those exact same choices. There is nothing different here. This is the problem that this class faces. This same exact set of choices and the same exact problems with building a character around dexterity are still present here as they are for the Fighter and for the Ranger and for any class that wants to wade into melee.
And for YEARS the choice has been simple. Make a strength based melee character or make a less powerful melee character.
Finally, we have the chance to change that dynamic... to make a class where dexterity IS the best choice. But to do that, there needs to be something new that doesn't exist in those other classes. Weapon Finesse aint it.
OK, before sitting down to this next round of testing, I'd like to weigh in on this last page or so...
*SNIP*
Thanks for your continuing playtest info! For those of us that haven't been able to playtest as much (or at as high of a level), this is very useful.
I'm a bit confused, though. I've seen multiple playtest threads on the Swashbuckler with wildly different results. Some are pretty harsh in their criticism of the class (especially at low levels... an opinion that I share), while others have presented results that suggest the swashbuckler is over-powered and out-damages a fighter. It seems to me that both of these results cannot possibly be reconciled without admiting that this class is broken. The mechanics of a class cannot support such wildly divergent results and be sound.
I will say that, as a Dex-based fighter, the swashbuckler falls incredibly short. The mechanics have to be adjusted to incentivise Dex and minimize Str builds... otherwise the great potential of this class will be completely for naught.
This has been covered a lot in here but here's the math again-
Assuming for argument's sake both start off with an 18 str and pump it as they go, we have a fighter with a falchion and a swashbuckler with a rapier. We'll also assume both keep taking the same feats, generally, and power attack at level 1.
BAB cancels out, weapon training cancels out (mostly), I don't think weapon specialization is actually an option for the swash, but let's say the fighter didn't take it. Both have the same crit range. So, we'll focus on the two-handed advantage vs. precise strike, and the oddities of crits.
At level 1, the fighter's up by 4.5 damage on average. 1.5 from the weapon's die range, 2 from 1.5x their str, 1.5x the power attack.
Power attack gives an extra point to the fighter at 4 8 12 16 and 20, and str increases at level ups pop one more damage out at 8 and 16. Call it 0.375/level between them.
Fighter also nets 1 more damage every time they upgrades the strength enhancement bonus on their belts, and from any other str boost the get- bull's strength, enlarge person, whatever. 3 more points along the way somewhere. So far, fighting with one hand behind her back has the swash down 14.5 per hit overall by level 20, plus a little more with tempory bonuses.
Swashbuckler's math is easier. Starting at level 3, they add their level to their damage. At level 20, they has passed the fighter on this front, coming out 5.5 damage ahead. This seems to be the main thing people doing theoretical number crunching focus on and freak out about. There's a lot more to it, but even if that was it, without factoring in the belt, the swashbuckler doesn't catch up until 12... if neither's ever getting a str belt. If they are, the math gets trickier, but the fighter keeps his edge for longer is the deal. Simple version though, is, so far, fighter hurts more for a little over half the whole level range, then the swash pulls ahead, but, it's not all that huge a gap, and there's more to it- Crits.
Early on, the fighter does way better with crits. At levels 1 and 2, both are doubling their damage, but the fighter hast that edge of around 4 points being chipped away at, and that edge doubles on a crit. At level 3, precise strike kicks in, so the gap narrows some but... the crits are kind of weird. The precision damage doesn't double, but you can spend panache to double your precision damage on your next hit, and it comes back on a crit so... it comes close to balancing out. Technically a little worse because you have to confirm the crit, and then not miss in the next round, plus activation is a swift action, so, essentially, if you crit twice in the same round, you lose your level in damage. Weird.
Weirder- You also get panache back if you kill something, with at least half your level in HD. That kind of offsets the two crits in one round/crit then miss the next round issue, but it happens a lot less often than it sounds. Generally in a given fight, you've got 1 big thing of about your level by itself, where you get the panache if you get the kill, but when there's a swarm of mooks, they're not going to have enough HD to count. At least in the AP I'm testing with. Probably works out better at high levels. Still, the extra panache every so often from that helps offset the times you miss with the attack on the round after the crit.
Now, here's the bit people who just crunch numbers seem to miss- It's a swift action to do this, so you can't do it off every attack, just once per round. Once you have 2 attacks per round, you're potentially losing some damage there. There, we kinda balance it out with the expanded crit range at level 5. Crit about 1/3 of the time, but lose about 1/3 of your damage if you do it twice in a round. Plus, you're losing out on using swifts for doing anything else because they're all being spent on these time-shifted crits.
The next swing comes when you get up around level 10. Suddenly, anyone can take improved crit, so you crit just as often, and sometimes you're losing part of your damage, plus, you're getting 3 attacks per round, so the odds are quite decent that you're going to have one of those wasted crit situations. But, then you get the signature deed feat, and access to some new ones, and might be able to make up the difference.
Ultimately though, everything stays close to the same damage per round curve in a weird swinging pendulum sort of way. However, as is, I think you generally fall a little short of the falchion fighter, with all of these weird mostly break even mechanics. It's marginal though, and the class concept is inherently enjoyable enough to carry it through.
The problem is, in every way but this damage comparison, there are issues. Can't assume the same stats because you have way more dependencies. The fighter has better AC, period. The fighter has a good fort save, which matters more than reflex for these classes. The fighter can actually use every ability he picks up without essentially giving up his ability to crit. The fighter can use other weapons when there is a need to do so, which is huge. The fighter doesn't lose a good third of his damage against oozes and elementals. And, if you actually try to make a dex based swashbuckler, an army of gnomes with let pipes appears out of no where to beat you to a bloody pulp for having the audacity to try, metaphorically.
Personally, I'd like to see mandatory dex to damage kick in at some point, taking the easy street strength build out of the picture, so focus can be placed on some minor tweaks all over that the class really does need. Reaping the benefits of using your main stat to hit and do damage, and having access to power attacks are a must, because those contribute the lion's share of your damage. I'd also like to see the pendulum swing in such a way that the swash is usually the one hitting a little harder, to make up for the time when the swash is stuck fighting a flying oozey elemental with ranged attacks that deny dex bonuses. That would bring things in line with melee classes in general- you can usually do your extra schtick and do more damage than the pure fighter, but the fighter never finds himself in a situation where his damage output suddenly crumbles away. Ideally, I'd actually like to see significantly better damage from the swash, really, because not only does a paladin/ranger/barbarian/monk/brawler hit harder than the fighter under favorable conditions, they also get spells and crazy super powers and such going on. All swashbucklers get is a pile of glorified bonus feats with costs so prohibitive they never get to use them. My suggestions to date aren't aiming for that level though, just the "slightly worse damage output than a fighter with comparable stats" level.
I think one issue is that swashbucklers really aren't supposed to be blasters. They're supposed to be battlefield controllers.
But they have a bunch of cool-seeming but weak blasting abilities and poor (and vague) battlefield controlling abilities.
I think a lot of the deeds and class abilities should be re-worked to reflect the niche the swashbuckler is "supposed" to fill.
It would be nice if they were VERY good at dirty tricks, demoralizing, disarming, feinting, flanking, and tripping. Then an ally can hit the opponents hard while they are hindered.
Maybe even have them add other conditions, like bleed, confused, slow, dazed, staggered, stunned, shaken, frightened, panicked, etc. Maybe fatigued, exhausted, sickened, nauseated, etc. Ability score damage might be neat too.
Then give them the ability to treat their threatened squares as difficult terrain, increase their threatened areas, and increase their CMD vs. tumble attempts, and I think we'd have a fun swashbuckler that does what swashbucklers generally do in various media.
I'd also like to see them gain attack and/or damage bonuses when they move, and then they can do situationally high damage.
@Googleshng
Not going to quote that big ol text wall, but well written, good post.
I would also add that the minimum 1 on panache points needs to go. Tanking charisma should not be a serious option for a swashbuckler IMO. Some other mechanical benefit to having a high Charisma would probably also help quite a bit in this regard,
Some sort of Deed would suffice:
Braggadocio: A swashbuckler uses his or her Charisma bonus instead of wisdom when calculating Will save.
Forcing dex to damage and forcing charisma to will rather than just leaving these as possible tweaks helps kick out the option to sidestep them. Dex to damage will also kill the 2-handed Heavy Pick nonsense that I listed earlier.
Should a swashbuckler deal more damage? Ehhh... maybe? I would err on the side of no. There are more skills and a few interesting goodies here that should offset a little less damage and a little less defense.
The weak saves are pretty brutal... but I think if this class comes together as a true dex-fighter, then the Swashbuckler fans will be happy. Some of the deeds (lookin at you swift feint) could use work, but on the whole the class looks pretty close.
Precise strikes is a smart way to make a singleton style relevant, nimble helps to make light armor viable (much like a monk AC bonus) even if it isn't better.
The problem is that (much like a core monk) many people are reading certain abilities as if they were anything more than mechanical band-aids to cover over the built in restrictions.
Its almost as if one said that a swashbuckler got 1.5 str and 1.5 power attack when using a single one-handed piercing weapon, and then they got to add +1d6 to this damage. Not actually a real bonus or a real feature as such... just a way to allow something that is thematically appropriate while maintaining a certain baseline of effectiveness.
I think one issue is that swashbucklers really aren't supposed to be blasters. They're supposed to be battlefield controllers.
But they have a bunch of cool-seeming but weak blasting abilities and poor (and vague) battlefield controlling abilities.
I think a lot of the deeds and class abilities should be re-worked to reflect the niche the swashbuckler is "supposed" to fill.
It would be nice if they were VERY good at dirty tricks, demoralizing, disarming, feinting, flanking, and tripping. Then an ally can hit the opponents hard while they are hindered.
Maybe even have them add other conditions, like bleed, confused, slow, dazed, staggered, stunned, shaken, frightened, panicked, etc. Maybe fatigued, exhausted, sickened, nauseated, etc. Ability score damage might be neat too.
Then give them the ability to treat their threatened squares as difficult terrain, increase their threatened areas, and increase their CMD vs. tumble attempts, and I think we'd have a fun swashbuckler that does what swashbucklers generally do in various media.
I'd also like to see them gain attack and/or damage bonuses when they move, and then they can do situationally high damage.
I actually think that this would be better represented by a fighter/rogue hybrid. Tricks to get better at certain maneuvers. Access to swift action feints or dirty tricks. Sneak Attack damage instead of precise strikes with talents to add str damage, bleed, deny AoOs, slow movement etc just as the rogue does now.
Throw in Scouts Charge/Skirmisher abilities from the Scout archtype, and you have just what you are asking for.
But I don't think that these are really in the purview of a gunslinger/fighter hybrid. Just like a fighter, you can build toward disarms, dirty tricks, trips (pommel strike is great here) etc. if you want to, but you don't have to.
Not truly a bad way to go, but the requirement of Combat Expertise and its requisite 13 int makes for even more of a MAD Swash.
Would be pretty crazy cool if they could spend a panache in order to not provoke an AoO when performing a disarm, steal, dirty trick, trip or reposition though, wouldn't it?
Super crazy cool!!!!!!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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I have one main issue with the swashbuckler, and that is the concept of mobility. Specifically, I don't have a very clear picture of whether the mechanics in the Swashbuckler's kit support the kind of mobility that the playtest document itself claims to have.
Mainly, the description and role portions of the swashbuckler's entry list a couple of things related to its mobility: they "rely on speed, agility, and panache;" "they dart in and out of the fray;" they practice their fancy footwork and stances; a swashbuckler "darts in and out of battle" (yes this is the exact same verb usage as before, but under "Role" rather than the general description, so it must be important!); a swashbuckler is "fast and agile." Aside from this, they are also supposedly good at killing lumbering brutes (which for the small races is most humanoids), but I'll get to that.
So what in the swashbuckler's kit adds to their agility, or their mobility? Obviously, these words have some nuance as to interpretation with physical bodies, so their abstraction into a game mechanic is even harder to pin down, but here are some things that look agile and mobile:
- Skills and armor: Plenty of dexterity-based skills, and the light armor and buckler proficiency also indicate a clear preference toward a high dexterity, which is certainly the stat most associated with agility.
- Swashbuckler finesse: dexterity applied to weapons that those clunky "brutes" won't be using (except, you know, heavy picks).
- Nimble: dodge bonuses seem very agile.
- Derring-do Deed: bonuses to mobility skills.
- Recovery Deed: more dodging.
- Swashbuckler Initiative Deed: Initiative is certainly a speed issue, although the analog to physical mobility here is fuzzy if not altogether nonexistent.
- Evasive Deed: Yet more dodging!
- Dizzying Defense Deed: So much dodging!
- Swashbuckler's Edge Deed: A nice way to use your high mobility skills more reliably (maybe?) in combat or other stressfull situations.
- Bonus Feats: Technically you could use things for mobility purposes (e.g. the Mobility feat, if you feel like being literal).
So this looks like a good amount of stuff devoted to simulating physical agility, but the problem I'm seeing (and having while playing) is that there aren't many things the swashbuckler gets that actually affect their speed or ability to dart around. Sure, some of that fancy footwork mentioned could be represented by all the dodge bonuses a dexterity-based swashbuckler gets, but the vast majority of these abilities don't actually involve the swashbuckler moving, unless you count the movement involved in dodging and bobbing and weaving and such without leaving the five-foot game-square that the swashbuckler occupies. The only things that actually seem to affect all of the swashbuckler's "darting" are the two deeds that give bonuses to skills used to move (although these forms of movement are often not very accommodating to darting, like swimming), and the recovery deed, which hardly seems like enough movement to be spending my panache on. The only thing that seems to affect or rely on actual speed (not counting all those dodge bonuses) is the swashbuckler initiative deed, which as I said before is a very strange kind of speed.
Currently, the game as I have played it generally rewards melee combat for moving within a small area, making five-foot steps at the most to keep hitting the enemy, and most of the time the only other movement options I see are withdrawing. The system doesn't seem to reward using that move action to move in combat, but the swashbuckler's description seems to promise that this class would make that an option. However, melee combat as-written doesn't favor moving, greatly favors strength-based melee, and is not great for small-sized characters with their usually inferior move speeds, smaller weapon dice, and lower strength. As it stands, though, my gnome swashbuckler is no better at killing strong, lumbering brutes than some other strong, lumbering brute (and is probably much worse at it, actually, since he's only first level), and has trouble getting around the battlefield with his 20-ft move speed, much less doing any sort of "darting!" Certainly not all swashbucklers will be obsessed with fighting things bigger (size categories bigger, that is, not just in muscle mass) than them, but perhaps it would make for an interesting titan-mauler-esque archetype. But the ability to use actual movement in combat should be a key feature of this class (probably through some different deeds?), if not the feature of this class.
I agree... mobility is that thing that often gets advertised and regularly comes up lacking.
Keep in mind that the Core Monk is supposed to be "mobile". One wonders if that is why it has a 3/4 BAB when moving and attacking, but a full BAB when standing still and flurrying... har har har.
Anywho. Some sort of Rapid Shot for melee attacks that can be used as a standard attack action has always felt like a good idea to me.
Possibly a feat that lets a TWF character make one attack with each weapon when making a standard action attack.
The Swashbuckler could always get access to the Acrobatic Charge ability of the duelist. And then there are some cool mobility abilities like the Surprise Charge Revelation from the Battle Mystery (move your speed as a swift action x/times per day).
Also, its very late, and I am very tired... but saying mobility abilities is very fun right now.
mobilityabilities
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Hey I don't know if anyone brought this up but has their been any talk about expanding the options for weapons that can grant panache? As it stands I saw this and totally thought this would be a great class to use to represent an african stick fighter.
Also on Opportune parry couldn't they just put that this penalty only affects targets who's size is smaller then small or larger then medium? that way small characters wouldn't be adversely affected by this penalty over medium sized swashbucklers?
If you both use Power Attack or Piranha Strike and are adding your accuracy stat to damage, while taking Specialization and the like, you will get very different results than Debbie. In fact, Debbie seems to be intentionally avoiding all feats that add to damage--Googleshng has posted entire builds, which is awesome, so look at them carefully. Debbie doesn't even take Weapon Specialization or even Weapon Focus. Defense-wise, a quick glance also notices that Debbie has spent 4000 gold on Bracers of Armor +2, when a 10 gp Leather Armor is equally powerful except against incorporeal touch attacks, and Debbie has 7 Wisdom. EDIT: Didn't see the total +7 Dex because it was in temporary modifiers, so actually the Bracers are 1 AC better than unenchanted leather. +1 Mithral Chain Shirt is still 2 AC better for half the cost and no ACP. Wand of Mage Armor with an arcane buddy to cast is 2 AC better for even less. +1 Ring of Protection with Leather armor is half the price of the Bracers and gives the exact same benefits to AC and Touch AC as the Bracers.
If Swashbuckler was offensively buffed to make Debbie do as much damage as Fred, it will turn Sally into a monster or worse a Dervish or agile-user who also takes all the damage feats into some kind of god of war with both better AC and damage than the fighter. For all that the fighter made by A Man in Black used in my and Kolokotroni's playtest has come under attack for being "underoptimized" due to not using books beyond the CRB, Googleshng's Swashbuckler is extremely underoptimized compared to Sally or Fred. And that's OK--we want to see builds of all power types in these playtests. But we shouldn't assume that Debbie's weaknesses represent a weakness in the class itself.
So saying that Debbie proves that Swashbucklers do low damage is a very odd claim, since she is optimized to do as low damage as possible in her feat selection. It does prove that if you build a Swashbuckler that spends every last feat on things that lower accuracy (Combat Expertise) or don't affect accuracy or damage in any way, the class features on their own won't do it for you.
Saying, for instance, that Bravery is not enough to counteract the Swashbuckler's low base Will save even against Fear effects is less clear from Debbie alone because she also has a 7 Wisdom.
EDIT: Oh, also I think everyone agrees that Swash are weak at level 1 and 2, except maybe Str Swash. They aren't level 1 or 2 Investigator level of weak in combat, but they still won't put out very much damage at all.
Couple points of clarification-
Debbie here is not set up to be the best swashbuckler there can be. Debbie is set up to be the sort of swashbuckler people would be inclined to make. When I see an obvious trap (swashbuckler's finesse) I am walking right into it and trying to make due. When there is a feat line which meshes thematically, I'm going to try and qualify for it. When there is a feat from a really obscure splatbook, I'm... legitimately not aware of it. Debbie's an everyman build, basically.So, real quick addressing these:
Weapon Specialization- Debbie does not have 4 levels in fighter, and therefore does not qualify for this feat.
Power Attack- This requires a 13 in a stat which gives her no significant advantage over the 9 she has in it beyond the ability to qualify for this one single feat, which, for literally any other class which would ever desire to take it, essentially has no requirement. That said, she's totally planning to take it when she can afford to meet that requirement. In order to do so from level 1, her stats would be 13/16/13/13/7/14 which is a bit insanely flat for a class that doesn't do anything a fighter can't.
Piranha Strike- This is honestly the first time I've ever heard of this one (or at least been told what it did). It's from a region-specific splatbook, so it may have some weird lore-y caveat I'm missing, but if it doesn't, the only problem with it is the lack of visiblity. ... Although actually, taking a closer look at it, there are two more problems- I cannot use a rapier in conjuction with this feat. I have to take a feat which is completely redundant with a class feature I get out of the box with this feat. Dervish Dance, same problem. A scimitar is honestly even a hands down better weapon than a rapier, but this class should work with a rapier and without me taking totally redundant feats.
Mithral Shirt- Possibly an error on my part, but it's pesky as it tends to hide in the rules in such a way that I can't look at it's AC/Max Dex/weight all at once, and my flawed recollection was that the dex cap was too low to fully benefit from. Mainly I'm just trying to get weight down at this point though, and find ways to deal with incorporeal undead if they come up again. Those are much scarier than things that just hit and do damage.
13 Int Working out feats for this is hard, but at some point, feint/disarm/trip/dirty trick, these are things that need to be on the table. Plus, you really need to be able to talk a big game, flip around, and climb the rigging.
The swashbuckler needs to add dex to damage because if it does not, it is not a dex-based class. Building a dex based swashbuckler with the class as it stands IS A TRAP!!!!!
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If you want a dex based swashbuckler, then it needs to be dex based all around, NOT HALF WAY.
This here is the main point yes. It has all the trappings of a dex focused class on the surface, but then sends you off to the store to buy all the parts it needs to work on your own. All it actually supports is fighting with one hand.
If you want a weapon that equalizes on number of crits with a rapier (like falchion) for the fighter, it's actually a matter of 7.5 vs 10 rather than 9.5 vs 10. And the Swash can double precise strike for 1 panache, gaining 1 panache back on a crit, which in my playtest experience so far has been better than doubling on a crit.
I'm going to have to ask you to back that up, because it does not make any sense from where I sit, and I just extensively crunched the numbers a little while ago. A crit from a swashbuckler doubles all of their damage aside from precise strike, and allows precise strike damage to be doubled on their first attack next round, at the cost of shutting out all their other deeds and a swift action. Under ideal circumstances, this exactly doubles their damage, just like the falchion's damage is doubled.
it's bad for the game if a dex-based character does the same damage as a two-handed brute, pure and simple because Dex is such a powerful stat that adds elsewhere in the character's abilities. To maintain balance, Dex-focused builds need to do somewhat less damage than Strength-focused builds to make up for the increase of Initiative, AC, Reflex, skills, etc that Strength doesn't provide.
That is a completely disingenuous statement. Not all classes receive the same benefit from all stats, and part of the general design approach with each is deciding how much importance each class needs to place on each stat. Paladins for instance under 3.5 rules needed both charisma and wisdom to do things they can now do just with charisma. Charisma is pretty great for everyone because it powers their social skills. For paladins, it also powers their lay on hands power, and it powers their divine spells, which they "should need" wisdom for like a cleric, and they get a bonus on saves with it... which means they don't need Dex Con or Wis to boost their saves like every other class. That is an awful lot more being pooled into one stat for them than you'd get here, but nobody screams about the sky falling over that. Because Paladins are designed as a class that really relies heavily on two stats- Str for hitting stuff, Cha for all that junk. Therefore, they are generally given a pass on all the other stats.
This is as opposed to, say, a fighter, which honestly only really needs strength. And only needs these other stats to the degree their baseline benefits are handy for every class in a vacuum. Saves are good, you're up front and need HP, you need AC, you need at least a few skills, it's nice being able to hold a conversation.
Swashbucklers have unexpected additional needs from these stats that not all classes have to deal with. You need to carry a bunch of combat gear. You need to compensate for not being allowed to use heavy armor but still being up front. You need panache. Your primary stat doesn't work with the feats your general role in the party calls on. None of these extra needs are there as a tax on some cool thing nobody else can do, so... some degree of combining is really called for.
Plus, the class is designed (or at least presented) from the ground up as The Dex Based Fighter, and other aspects of the class have been tweaked accordingly to account for that. They just kinda... got cold feet halfway through. I mean, you let a monk damage with dex, that's bad. A monk actually is designed on the assumption they're spreading stats all over in balanced fashion, with alternatives already present (wis gets a lot of extra things to do, taking pressure off dex, the need for equipment is generally reduced, bla bla bla. A swashbuckler isn't though. A swashbuckler only really does the same stuff as Mr. all-I-really-need-is-str fighter, but requires more to do it.
Dexterity: Six d20 based rolls (or d20 roll based defenses), 7 Skills
• Armor Class
• Touch Armor Class
• Ranged Attack Rolls (with MOST weapons)
• Initiative
• Reflex Saves
• Melee Attack Rolls (with 1 Feat investment)
• 7 SkillsStrength: One d20 based roll, Damage rolls, 2 skills
• Melee Attack Rolls (Can be converted to Dex with a 1 feat investment)
• Melee Damage Rolls (x1.5 if two-handed)
• 2 Skills
Feel like I'm kinda repeating myself in this post a lot, getting rather tired and punchy, but... A- That's not really how the balancing works, you need to look at everything within the context of a given class as just stated. B- You left out ranged damage, CMB, CMD, raw stat rolls (which I can't recall ever seeing for any other stat in the rules, but are baked right into the mechanics with break DCs), and also are common to officially published modules, and carrying capacity which is a way bigger deal than people acknowledge when you try and minimize it.
I've never seen a party where the 9 Strength person had to carry a bedroll, a blanket, food, water, or money.
Think for a moment though. The reason you never see that is because the fighter (or nearest equivalent) has str in the high teens or higher and is happily playing pack mule. Here, the character with 9 str is the fighter. Assuming a 4 person party in the traditional vein, you've got the wizard, who dumped str (doable because he can't really fight and has no armor, so he really just needs a book), the cleric (who might have kept some str but mainly pumped wis), and the rogue (who also might have some but presumably focused more on dex). If you've got one of those Strong Rogues, cool, but otherwise everyone's going to have to pull their own share, that includes both their regular personal possessions and an even share of found loot.
Further food for thought on this matter-
Pretty sure you can build a more durable, consistently damaging (across all levels) dex based fighter than dex based swashbuckler. Both require the same list of feats to really get it off the ground, but the fighter has access sooner, and a higher max dex on every type of armor.
Also, serious question-
With these new builds people are posting, have you tried playing these from level 1? Most of the problems the class suffers from are crippling early on, but get bought off/compensated for later.
Quoting for emphasis, not for argument.
Simple version though, is, so far, fighter hurts more for a little over half the whole level range, then the swash pulls ahead, but, it's not all that huge a gap, and there's more to it- Crits.
Add to this that the Swashbucklers damage is situational. Sure, not many critters are immune to precision damage, but some are. And the fighter has more versatility and a better AC.
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Dex to damage is not about Need, and it isn't about damage output either.
let me say that again in big text:
The swashbuckler needs to add dex to damage because if it does not, it is not a dex-based class. Building a dex based swashbuckler with the class as it stands IS A TRAP!!!!!
Way to use overly dramatic straw-men.
I guess the fact Parry is based on multiple AoOs (and thus, high Dex) ; that your AC is determined by Dex ; that you are limited to light armors meaning you need Dex to both have good AC and Touch AC ; that your attack bonus is based on Dex ; that Reflex are based on Dex ; that Acrobatics and a lot of other useful skills are based on Dex ; that all of these mean nothing in making the final Swashuckler a Dex based class because it doesn't also add this modifier to damage.
Gee, I do suppose giving XXX to damage is the only way to design a class around using an ability score now. And here I thought the hours I spent in my free time writing public houserules, including some nicely-rated paid works for 3PP gave me a little bit on insight on the whole "writing cool class features for Pathfinder classes balanced around a theme and going beyond simple damage" thing.
The current Swashbuckler suffers issues and would benefit from really being re-focused on Dexterity ; but saying that it NEEDS to add it to damage for it to be the major ability score ? No, it doesn't NEED TO.
Maybe it could get more use out of Dex-based skills. Deeds with saving throws based on Dex. Performing Reflex saving throws instead of Fort/Will a limited amount of times per day. Adding Dex to confirm critical hits with high-crit modifier/low-crit range weapons. A way to also deflect missiles with a Reflex save or AoO. All of these increase drastically the importance of Dex. None add Dex to damage.
I like this class, but it has a few problems, IMHO.
6- Mobility. Swashbucklers don't really get anything to make them more mobile. Other than the Darring-do deed, that is, but that deed is terrible. Give it the ability to add Cha to Acrobatics and Escape Artist checks, spend Panache to move and attack more than once (maybe move as a swift action?) or something like that.
Haven't read the whole thread, so if this has already been addressed/beaten to death, ignore, but I felt this was an important point.
Swashbucklers aren't just about swinging a pointy weapon in a fancy way, they're about charging up and down stairs, swinging from chandeliers, using the terrain and props to their advantage (chairs, tables, drapes, etc...), and I don't see anything that really supports this.
We have a similar problem with the monk who WANTS to be mobile (they do have a ton of base speed after all, and the Dex to be going in for stuff like Mobility and Spring Attack), but their abilities either lock them in place, or don't support much movement in combat, and melee characters that move a lot in combat (miss full attacks) are notoriously weak.
I'd like to see some things included here that are similar to some of the Skill Tricks from 3.5's Complete Scoundrel, giving new, cool movement options, and some way to get in either a full attack, or an especially powerful attack, while also moving.
As another point, I feel like Panache is too limited--the class has abilities that stack Panache usage (Parry and Riposte) that can burn through all of your Panache on a single attack at low levels/in a low-point buy or magic campaign. The parallel to Panache is Grit, but many of the Grit abilities aren't things you're expending for multiple times in a round. Does Riposte really need to cost an ADDITIONAL Panache point? Could it just modify Parry, or maybe only function if you have at least 1 Panache point remaining?
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I have actually seen a Swashbuckler at levels 1, 3 and 6. I GMed for it. At no point it ceased to struggle.
Redundant Feats
The player was rather frustrated at 1st level because he couldn't hit the broad side of a mountain. Then he was even more frustrated when he realized he had to grab Weapon Finesse anyway so he could use Piranha Strike.
His solution? Retrain his feats and grab Power Attack instead. He already needed a Str 12 to simply be able to carry his gear without suffering from encumbrance, so pushing it 1 point higher was no problem.
Saves
Even use 2 traits and 1 alternate racial trait, his saves were still really bad at all levels. The guy was terrified anytime he faced a caster or creature with supernatural ability. Bravery doesn't help. At all. Let's not pretend it does.
In fact, Bravery sucks so much, that reaching levels 6, 10, 14 and 18 is incredibly boring.
Combat Maneuvers
He tried to grab some maneuver feats, but the steep prerequisites and the fact that they Swashbuckler have zero dump stats make it all but impossible to qualify for Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm/Trip/Dirty Trick.
Can't dump Str because he needs to be able to carry armor (and qualify for Power Attack).
Has to boost Con because HP and Fort saves.
Can't dump Wisdom because of its abysmal will saves.
Can't dump Int because no one wants a dumb Swashbuckler, and that's the attribute necessary for Improved Disarm anyway.
Dex and Cha are the class' supposed main attributes (though dumping Cha seems like a great idea right now).
Mobility
I still don't see anything that makes Swashbucklers more mobile than any other class. Given the scarceness of Panache points and the unreliable dice mechanics, Derring-do is not even close to being useful.
Weapon Selection
The limited weapon selection is pretty bad too. When facing skeletons, the Swashbuckler had no means to deal any real damage. And because its limited to light or one-handed piercing weapons, the player barely considered using any other weapon. The Weapon Restriction needlessly hurts character variety.
Also, Swashbucklers really should be proficient with whips!
On Deeds:
Daring-do is really weak. It costs panache to get a minor bonus than can get as low as +1. Swashbucklers still have no real mobility-related class feature whatsoever.
Opportune Parry costs too much and will easily fail against non-humanoids thanks to the -4 per size category. Guess what becomes really common at level 6 and beyond? Large enemies. More than once the player wasted his very limited Panache on attacks that wouldn't have hit anyway. Why not simply make it work like Snake Style but base it on Bluff instead?
Riposte: Again, you need at least 2 Panache points for this to work, so the player rarely used it, since he needs at least one Panache point to use Precise Strike.
Swashbuckler Initiative is boring. Instead of giving an static number, let Swashbuckler add Cha to Initiative.
The player regretted having raised Cha so much when he realized how limited and costly most deeds are.
Note: I used HeroLab to create the following stat block. I did it by using a Gunslinger's build and making the appropriate changes, so I may have forgotten to change a few words. The numbers are directly copied from the player's character sheet.
Male Half-Elf Swashbuckler 6
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18 (+5 armor, +2 shield, +4 Dex, +1 deflection, +2 dodge)
hp 43 (6d10+6)
Fort +6, Ref +12, Will +7; +2 vs. enchantments; +2 vs fear
Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 silversheen rapier +13/+7 (1d6+8/18-20) and
. . masterwork cold iron rapier +13/+7 (1d6+7/18-20)
Ranged masterwork composite longbow +11/+6 (1d8+1/x3)
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Statistics
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Str 13, Dex 21, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +6; CMB +7; CMD 24
Feats Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Step Up, Weapon Focus (rapier)
Traits indomitable faith, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +14, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +11, Intimidate +11, Perception +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ deed: Precise Strike, deed: Swashbuckler Initiative, deed: Derring-do, deed: Opportune Parry, deed: Riposte, deed: Recovery, deed: Menacins Swordplay, elf blood, panache (2), gun training
Other Gear +1 Chain shirt, +1 Buckler, +1 Silversheen Rapier, Masterwork Cold Iron Rapier, Masterwork Longbow, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Ring of protection +1, 110 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery (+2): Get a bonus on saving throws made against fear.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Panache (Ex) (2) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on crit/killing blow.
Swash Buckler Weapon Training +1: Add +1 to attack and damage rolls made with one-handed piercing weapons.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
I'll try to GM a 10th level adventure for the same group this weekend, to see if things get better for the class, which I sadly don't expect to happen.
Final Considerations
At least up to 6th level, IME, Swashbucklers have:
- Limited weapon selection. (Heavens forbid you need bludgeoning damage)
- Terrible saves (not made any better by the fact that they can't afford to boost Wisdom without completely losing the class' flavor)
- Limited utility out of combat (4 skill points per level doesn't really do much for them)
- Incredibly small Panache pool
- Mostly underwhelming deeds, either because they cost too much or are too situational, save for a few exceptions.
- Mediocre damage.
- No realistic way to get the maneuvers one would expect from the class.
- No extra mobility.
All in all... It's pretty much impossible to keep the class' flavor and make an effective character without being really frustrated by its mechanics.
I'm sadly disappointed with this class.
Its Fighter side is seriously holding it back. Bravery is completely worthless and is all that is given to the character at quite a few levels. Weapon Training stops it from getting more flavorful abilities because the designers seem to be afraid a Dex-based class will out damage Fighters.
I still maintain that a Cha-based Gunslinger/Monk hybrid with full-BAB would better reflect the character concept. Most ACG classes could use a little revision, and this playtest definitely needs a 2nd round, but I fear Paizo won't do that.
AC from Dexterity doesn't keep up with that of Heavy Armor. Granted it's Touch AC, but while Touch AC is your only defense against some painful spells, enemies attacking your regular AC are much more common.
Mithral Chain Shirt, which costs the same amount of money, more or less, as regular Full Plate, will give the same amount of AC if you have 22 Dexterity, for the same cost. It also doesn't slow the Swash down, require two proficiency feats, and eliminate the Nimble bonus. The Nimble bonus means that a Dex Swash will definitely have better AC in Mithral Chain Shirt than a Str Swash has in equally-enchanted Full Plate. And at level 11, neither Swash can be flat-footed, which makes the Dex Swash's AC apply to all situations (since as you pointed out, it's already applying to touch).
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I have a question/suggestion about the swashbuckler:
Why are a lot of its abilities linked to piercing weapons in particular?
I get that the first association with the word is Zorro, Inigo Montoya, Three Musketeers, all of whom wield rapiers.
And I understand that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, thematically to have them swing around heavy, unbalanced hammers or maces.
But what about swords? Particularly longswords, cutlasses and scimitars?
Those weapons fit perfectly well with the archetypical swashbuckler, and I think the class does need a bit of a broadened weapon selection, because as it stands the best choice by far is a rapier, to a point where little else makes sense. That seems unnecessarily limiting.
Why not expand the use of panache and other such features to all finessable weapons and perhaps one-handed light and heavy blades? (as per fighter weapon groups - which, i may add, at this point should go into the equipment rules rather than the fighter rules, as often as they have become relevant for other classes)
-> Fighter training: A swashbuckler counts his level as fighter level for qualifing for feats.
Obviously, for being able to get weapon specialization and stuff.
Good news! Despite what some people are saying in this thread, Swashbuckler already has this ability. It's the last line of the Bonus Feats feature.
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Whips! They shouldn't be just for bards
I'd remove precision, change it to either dex or cha to damage (with a cap equal to level) and add support for the classic rapier/daggar and sword/buckler styles. The big thing people don't seem to get about fencing is that the off-hand is supposed to be doing something, swatting the sword away, or holding something to defend yourself with (and possibly attack!).yes!
Swashbucklers should not be limited to "one weapon, one handed"
Rapier/ Main-gauche or fighting case (duel rapiers) should be an option...
of course they could end up becoming unique Archetypes
Swashbucklers, as it stands, are not at all limited to a single one-handed weapon. If you read carefully, you will notice that every single ability they get works just fine with two handed fighting, with the sole exception of one deed whose sole purpose is to compensate for damage being given up by someone who chooses to fight with a one-handed weapon (and buckler).
You're not "missing out" on precise strike if you go all rapier-and-dagger with it, you're just not getting to have your cake and eat it too is all.
you understand if you work up the math.. without Precise Strike (or at least some dex to damage mechanic)you completely fall behind the damage curb unless you build a strength build.. and at that point you suffer in the AC department unless you get heavy armor...
Precise Strike is there to level out the damage per round... you are a fighter type, you are expected to deal XX damage...
now if they add a "dex to damage" mechanic, I would be 100% ok with losing Precise Strike....
you understand if you work up the math.. without Precise Strike (or at least some dex to damage mechanic)you completely fall behind the damage curb unless you build a strength build.. and at that point you suffer in the AC department unless you get heavy armor...
And once you're at that point you might as well have made a fighter.
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CONTAINS ACTUAL PLAYTEST INFORMATION. OK, with that out of the way, how did Jeremy the Swashbuckler do with his compatriots, J-Lo (cleric of Besmara), J-Hi (wizard), and J-Mi (rogue) from 1st through 4th level? I’m only using feats, weapons, and armor from the CRB. I built Jeremy on the assumption of Dexterity fighting—a prime class feature starting at 2nd level—and a 15 point build. I gave him Acrobatic and Combat Expertise for feats, making him an exceptional acrobat with a +8 at first level, and that with a buckler.
I feel that sabre fighting—a classic trope of swashbucklers—is effectively nullified here by not including the sabre weapons (cutlass and scimitar) in the Swashbuckler’s Finesse at 2nd level. Since the only difference is weight and type of damage (slashing) from a rapier, I don’t believe that there would be a power increase over what is already there. It is obviously more for fluff but that is often what make a class very attractive to players, especially those that are into character development and role-playing.
My first fight is with a group of pirates using the Wormwood Pirates stats from Skull & Shackles. Here is where we run into the first issue: Jeremy goes first on a good initiative roll. But is outclassed with the rapier by the Weapon Finesse Rogue. The Rogue and Jeremy have the same Dex score (16), and Jeremy has the higher BAB. I gave both 10 strength, as the damage and hitting will be based on precision and Dexterity. I really only had enough points for 3 decent ability scores, and that meant Dex, Int (for Combat Expertise and skill points), and Cha (for social skills, another important trope of swashbucklers and key to panache). Jeremy was easily able to move around and provide flanks without drawing an attack of opportunity due to his high Acrobatics skill. But all that did was give the rogue with his better bonus to hit the opportunity to take everything out with Sneak Attack. The front line fighter really shouldn’t be overshadowed by a combat support character at first level. I would recommend that Swashbuckler Finesse be given at 1st level, include scimitars and cutlasses, and that the bonus against sunder and disarm be something that is gained at say 4th level as an improvement to the Finesse class ability. Just a thought.
Moving on to 2nd level, we take on an ankheg. The jump from +1 to hit to +5 with the addition of Swashbuckler Finesse is quite jarring. Again this could be addressed with Finesse given at first level. The rogue and wizard go first and do little damage (the rogue misses and the wizard hits with a magic missile). Jeremy hits for five and easily moves into a flanking position for the rogue. High Acrobatics is all but mandatory to get that Swashbuckler mobility feel. The battle goes long and the rogue and wizard are down by the end. The Swashbuckler feels more like the combat master of the group though. When it comes to skill checks, I find my choices limited. At a 15-point buy means my Int score had to remain 13 at highest. That allowed Combat Expertise but only gave me 1 extra skill point. I wanted to put something in Intimidate and Escape Artist, or some combo of EA and Perform, Disguise, or Sleight of Hand. There just weren’t enough skill points for the skilled combatant I wanted. Since a Ranger gets 6 points per level, I see no issue with the Swashbuckler—another full BAB class—having that many points. And Disguise is a classic of the trope, so I would recommend raising the skill points per level to 6 and adding Disguise to the Class Skill List.
At 3rd nimble, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative arrive, and now we are feeling better. I add Improved Disarm to add a classic swashbuckler move and put a skill rank in Intimidate to take advantage of menacing swordplay. Using the WBL base I equip him with a +1 rapier and 2 potions of cat’s grace. In battle, we take on some more powerful pirates (using the stats of Street Thugs from the Game Mastery Guide) to see how we do. I find the Swashbuckler is now behaving in the appropriate way: going faster in combat, moving relatively unscathed about the battle field, and hitting with regularity and with good damage. I even use the menacing swordplay since it is a swift action to great effect, and flanking with the rogue is now really useful. No new complaints at 3rd, and it seems to be getting better.
4th level I up the Int score. Skills are important to the Swashbuckler, and I’m just going for it. I take Combat Reflexes for the bonus Feat and now I can start using the parries and ripostes correctly. Upping the equipment, I give him a masterwork buckler (dropping the armor check penalty) and +1 leather. A few more potions and we’re good to go. Fighting a Chellish crew from Raiders of the Fever Sea is the next test. This turned out to be an adequate challenge, and the movement of rogue and swashbuckler worked very well in tandem. The Swashbuckler is beginning to outshine the rogue a little, but still not impressively. All seems to be working at this level.
OK, that’s it for now. You may notice that I am NOT going for optimization; instead I'm trying to feel out a movie pirate type feel for my swashbuckler, and that means taking some sub-optimal choices or combos such as spending skill points on Profession (sailor). I’ll continue later with a 5th-10th level post.