RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, Contributor
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If they are regulated to nothing more than a Witch patron....the class looses any point for being in the first place.
One of the things that I don't think is coming through very strongly right now is that the spirits are in fact very like patrons--patrons that you commune with more directly/flexibly than the witch. The way they are presented and organized, though, makes them seem like oracle mysteries. This might be why you see people saying that the class is 90% oracle or an oracle with a familiar and no curse. Mechanically, I think that it is actually a decent blend of the two classes. Flavorwise, though, it is still coming across as a breed of oracle, instead of its own thing. I can't put my finger on exactly what is making me feel that way, but it might be that the shaman is emphasising things that are not immediately associated with the witch--familiars and patrons--and are missing the things that people most associate with it--evil eye, misfortune, slumber.
Speaking of hexes, I'm not actually sure why people are complaining that the shaman hexes don't feel like witch hexes. Sure, they aren't all debuffs, but neither are the witch hexes. I think most of the current hexes could be put onto the witch list, and people wouldn't bat an eye. Maybe someone who feels that way could point out what they feel like are the worst offenders.
Nighttree, I totally get what you are saying about shaman interacting with various other spirits. I would say that my feeling for them leans more toward the material/animistic side. Pathfinder cosmology makes that sort of a weird place though. I don't see my shaman consorting with extra-planar beings, but I would certainly want them to be able to speak with the dead. There are some conceptually very fuzzy lines in the space that the shaman inhabits, gamewise.
Other opinions definitely lend themselves to strong character concepts though, and I would hope that the class could support several of these various concepts, in archetypes, at least, if not in the base class. (Ghost Talker and Fey Herald both sound like awesome shaman archetypes.)
One of the things that I don't think is coming through very strongly right now is that the spirits are in fact very like patrons--patrons that you commune with more directly/flexibly than the witch. The way they are presented and organized, though, makes them seem like oracle mysteries. This might be why you see people saying that the class is 90% oracle or an oracle with a familiar and no curse. Mechanically, I think that it is actually a decent blend of the two classes. Flavorwise, though, it is still coming across as a breed of oracle, instead of its own thing. I can't put my finger on exactly what is making me feel that way, but it might be that the shaman is emphasising things that are not immediately associated with the witch--familiars and patrons--and are missing the things that people most associate with it--evil eye, misfortune, slumber.
If they are regulated to nothing more than a Witch patron....the class looses any point for being in the first place.
Oh wow. I didn't even realize that. Probably because I've never played a Witch but regardless, Wow!
Spirits are pretty much totally patrons.
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For me one of the reasons I would prefer the druid-spelllist over the cleric-spelllist is the fact that a shaman with cleric spells just feels ... boring. Its just an prepared oracle without a curse, or an cleric archetype or something like that. And as such I see little reason to play a shaman.
But give it the druidspelllist and the shaman "feels" much more like I envision it. Calling on the forces of nature, command the animals of the wild. That's my kind of shaman.
Lastly giving the shaman the clericspelllist means we would than have three fullcasters using the same spelllist. But If you want the druidspells ... your stuck with druid.
I think that is where the bigger problem lays.
The current "hexes" feel like replicas of the Oracle mysteries.The hexes need to be re-focused along the lines of more traditional abilities linked to the different cultural specialists collectively referred to as "shamans".
I agree that changing the "hexes" is a better way to fix the feel of the class than changing the spell list, but since it sounds like the spell list is changing as things stand, I'm basing my ideas around the assumption that the list is changing, at least for now. I don't think it's the ideal solution, but I'm still happy to see the class moving away from the Oracle.
I'm using the traditional definition that all cultures I have researched use (all European, Native American,and many Asian cultures) :)
I don't know if that's particularly relevant, though. Pathfinder's inspirations are in pop culture and pulp fantasy more than actual history or extant cultures. I don't mean that it's an invalid opinion or anything, just that I don't think it should necessarily be privileged over other opinions just because it's based in fact.
More broadly, I think the best answer to fluff concerns about what is and is not adequately "spirity" is best solved, mechanically, through adding variety to the spirits so that they might better cover the holes in the default spell list to fit a concept. Give hexes more often, offer more hex choices, and maybe diversify the spell selection fron any given spirit.
One of the things that I don't think is coming through very strongly right now is that the spirits are in fact very like patrons--patrons that you commune with more directly/flexibly than the witch. The way they are presented and organized, though, makes them seem like oracle mysteries. This might be why you see people saying that the class is 90% oracle or an oracle with a familiar and no curse. Mechanically, I think that it is actually a decent blend of the two classes.
I think they function mechanically more like mysteries, too. Patrons don't control the hexes you can choose, mysteries control the revelations you can choose; spirits control the hexes you can choose, and some of those hexes are existing revelations. Given that, they strike me as much more like mysteries than patrons, mechanically.
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I'm not a power gamer; I don't min-max, or meta, or have an encyclopedic knowledge of spell lists, feats, or anything else that would certify me to really know what I'm talking about particularly with regards to the mechanical stability of a class.
That said, I want to start by saying The Oracle and the Witch are my two favorite classes in Pathfinder, both mechanically and flavorfully. Seeing that the Shaman is in fact a blending of my two favorite classes is - utterly - awesome to me. A year back a friend of mine and I got into an argument over whether or not Pathfinder would release any more base classes for the game. He said no, of course not, but I was always hopeful. I'm seriously thrilled to see that they haven't stopped coming up with base classes.
With THAT said, my thoughts on the Shaman are overwhelmingly positive, though I'd like to comment on a couple things being brought up here in the forums.
My biggest concern is that everyone wants the Druid spell list to replace the Oracle spell list it has now. I totally understand why, considering flavorfully the Druid spell list is more in synch with many peoples idea of what a Shaman is, but... I'm worried that that list takes away from the Witch aspects of the class. If right now people are saying 90% Oracle that means we have 10% Witch, and... We're not making an Oracle/Druid class, so adding the Druid spell list doesn't help blend the two classes it's suppose to be representing.
I would also argue that Shamans are often represented as medicine men/healers, fortune tellers/seers/prophets, and to a certain degree simply general miracle workers. The commune with nature/spirit guide archetypes are, at least in my opinion, less common than the wise man that reads the signs and tells the tribe of impending doom, or prepares warriors for battle through tradition and ritual. I understand even scholars don't have a definite answer of what the term "Shaman" means specifically.
But I digress, maybe what I want from the class and what it is really trying to do are different things. Perhaps, as much as it would pain me, the class would make more sense as an Oracle/Druid. Flavorfully, what part of the shaman IS the Witch part? The fact that they're often isolated from the rest of the tribe? Oracles already "commune" with higher powers, so how a witch interacts with their patrons isn't necessarily the Witch class' aspect associated with how a Shaman interacts with spirits, though that seems to be what they're going for.
The Shaman has a familiar, which a Witch has, which was originally an option for Wizards. This, sadly, feels tacked on because (at least as far as I'm aware) Shamans rarely have familiars with them. Unless the familiars are suppose to be their spirit guides, but generally those are invisible/intangible to anyone but the guided...
Well, I suppose what I'm getting at is they really need to give the Shaman its own spell list. Something that fuses the healing of the oracle, with the nature of the Druid, and the power of the witch. That seems to help give everyone what they want.
THEN they need to up some of the Witch stuff, in my opinion. If the Shaman is going to remain Oracle/Witch, and everyone agrees it's more oracle than witch, adding a druid spell list isn't helping that problem, and giving it its own special spell list is only marginally doing so.
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Hey just catching back up on the conversation but wanted to talk about the spells list discussion again for a minute.
What is the reasoning behind not just giving the shaman the witches spell list? As it stands that spell list seems to have most of the spells mentioned before as being essential to the class like the protection spells and some of the nature based ones as well.
I'd like to see it be a spontaneous caster if they're going to move it in the druid direction.Agreed. Cant say that I like the currently spellcasting system, it feels clunky and low level shamans are underpowered (until the wandering mechanic kicks in) when compared to clerics and oracles of the same level.
My suggestion would be to give the shaman the oracle's spontaneous casting system while being able to choose known spells from: druid / witch lists or druid / cleric lists. The wandering spirit's spells would enter your list of spells known temporarily.
I like the Idea, this would create an intresting divine class. Especially with the wandering spirit ability.
Hey just catching back up on the conversation but wanted to talk about the spells list discussion again for a minute.
What is the reasoning behind not just giving the shaman the witches spell list? As it stands that spell list seems to have most of the spells mentioned before as being essential to the class like the protection spells and some of the nature based ones as well.
I have been wondering that as well....it certainly would cover many of the points people seem to be looking for, without running the risk of the Shaman simply turning out to be a Druid with a smaller animal companion.
I have been wondering that as well....it certainly would cover many of the points people seem to be looking for, without running the risk of the Shaman simply turning out to be a Druid with a smaller animal companion.Hey just catching back up on the conversation but wanted to talk about the spells list discussion again for a minute.
What is the reasoning behind not just giving the shaman the witches spell list? As it stands that spell list seems to have most of the spells mentioned before as being essential to the class like the protection spells and some of the nature based ones as well.
agreed, if they don't let you choose a spell list at level 1 in some way i think i would be happiest with the witch list.
I am really more interested in differentiating the shaman from the druid. Like, big time. Having a witch's familiar type creature instead of a curse is plenty of differentiation from the oracle. That's the high concept. In my mind, everything else that differentiates it should be the shaman's unique features.Isn't having revela— er, uh, "hexes" instead of wilsdhape plenty of differentiation from the druid?
It's basically a note-for-note replacement of the option to take a clerical domain instead of an animal companion. Wildshape doesn't even show up until later, and many druids do not emphasize it.
What would people think of the Shaman being a spontanious caster that used the Witch spell list ?
Hey just catching back up on the conversation but wanted to talk about the spells list discussion again for a minute.
What is the reasoning behind not just giving the shaman the witches spell list? As it stands that spell list seems to have most of the spells mentioned before as being essential to the class like the protection spells and some of the nature based ones as well.
I imagine they avoided the Witch list because of balance concerns and potential problems with learning new spells; Shamans and Witches learning learn spells from each-others' familiars could provide some problems, for instance. It could also be that they didn't want the Shaman to have a list of specific spells known for flavor reasons, which would be problematic with an arcane spell list.
I don't know if I agree with the decision, but I think there are plenty of good reasons to have made it.It's basically a note-for-note replacement of the option to take a clerical domain instead of an animal companion. Wildshape doesn't even show up until later, and many druids do not emphasize it.
I have to disagree. A spirit resembles an Oracle mystery much more strongly than it resembles a Cleric domain, in my opinion. A spirit is basically domain-style spell mechanics with mystery-style powers, and I think the latter comes off a lot more strongly in the feel of the class, especially since the Spirits' spell lists don't match up with domain lists to nearly the extent their hexes/abilities match up with revelations. Since I also don't think the familiar is particularly similar to an animal companion, in practice, I can't really say I get too much of a druid vibe from the class, as it is. That said, obviously a lot of this comes down to "feel," so it's not like I'm saying you're wrong, just that I don't get the same sense you do when I play the class.
What would people think of the Shaman being a spontanious caster that used the Witch spell list ?
I see two problems. First, the Witch list is very small and focused, as they get a lot of their spells and thematics from their patron. Second, I just don't think it fits. The Witch class is based on cursing and causing harm, whereas shamans are spiritual protectors.
It's basically a note-for-note replacement of the option to take a clerical domain instead of an animal companion. Wildshape doesn't even show up until later, and many druids do not emphasize it.I have to disagree. A spirit resembles an Oracle mystery much more strongly than it resembles a Cleric domain, in my opinion. A spirit is basically domain-style spell mechanics with mystery-style powers, and I think the latter comes off a lot more strongly in the feel of the class, especially since the Spirits' spell lists don't match up with domain lists to nearly the extent their hexes/abilities match up with revelations.
Well, of course it resembles an Oracle mystery more. The class is an oracle-witch hybrid. However, each spirit grants some spells and a grab-bag of special abilities, just like a Domain. Granting that ability to a druid caster would feel... a lot like a druid. Obviously, a Bones spirit on a druid caster would be very different, and also, very strange and perhaps difficult to play.
It feels like we're just banging our heads against the wall on the Cleric-vs-Druid list discussion. I'm pulling my impression from a combination of study and pop culture like Shaman King and the ritualist class from Guild Wars. From the number of people asking for the druid list, I'm sure there are different sources others are drawing from. I don't know what the solution is -- there's clearly a pretty big gap in expectations here, and barring the 1/2 BAB both lists suggestion earlier, it really feels like the only option is a unique spell list, which has already been shot down.
I think a lot of people might be thinking about the 3e Shaman, which was a druid variant that could turn undead, fey, elementals, and such. It was a folk magician intended for "primitive" types and hermit-like pseudo-Shinto priests.
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I love the class, though like many I have some issues with it. For a oracle/witch hybrid there was almost no witch at all in it.
Hexes: As many others have said, these feel like reskined revelations, and there are too few options. There should be a list of 'general' hexes, and major hexes for all shamans (I feel Grand Hexes should be restricted to the Witch, as well as some other distinctly 'witchy' hexes like Cackle, Evil Eye, etc...). The effects of Extra Hex with regards to Wandering Spirit hexes should also be clarified.
Spellcasting: Many are arguing that it should use the druid list, cleric list, or a druid/cleric list, I disagree. This is a oracle/witch class and not a oracle/druid, thus it should either use the Witch list (as the class is severely lacking it Witch) or preferably a Witch/Cleric hybrid list. Oracle gives access to the 'spirity' protection and divination spells that some people want, while Witch gives access to the elemental attack spells and curses that others want (and puts some more witch into the class). If you through in the druid spell list instead, this class will be as much (if not more) druid as it is witch.
Spirits: Ancestors should replace Lore as one of the starting choices. I have no problem with Lore being brought in later, but I can't thing of a shaman without thinking of revering and consulting one's ancestors.
Battle Spirit: Hexes: Battle Ward: why is this worse than the Bone Spirit's Bone Ward hex? I would think that the Battle Spirit would be better at protecting one from attacks than the Bone Spirit.
Battle Spirit: Spirit Ability: Healing Spirit: This should be under Life Spirit. Give me a bonus on attack rolls, initiative, or saving throws. Or a boost to a physical stat.
Bone Spirit: Spirit Ability: Touch of the Grave: I don't like that it forces one to have unholy weapons. I feel you should have the option of unholy or bane (undead)that doubles the bonus damage against corporeal undead (to help balance the +1 bane vs the +2 unholy). This allows a non-evil shaman to take the Bone Spirit without taking penalties, while still keeping to the Bones flavor.
Life Spirit: Greater Spirit Ability: Healer's Touch: WTF is this sh*t? I can cast a close-range CANTRIP up to 6 times (without moving) as a touch spell??? And get a +4 to Heal checks (meh). Give me the Battle Spirit's HEALING SPIRIT (a Spirit ability, not a greater spirit ability) any day. Hell, I'd take a mere 1 additional use of Channel Energy over this POS ability. How often am I going to be knee-deep in dying people that I want to save, but don't want to burn a Channel Positive Energy on? If you were bringing back the Healer class from 3.X, I could see this as a 1st level ability for them. Not a 8th/12th level ability for the Shaman.
Heavens Spirit: Hexes: Starburn: Doesn't give radius for light emitted.
Heavens Spirit: Spirit Ability: Stardust: sightless creatures should be able to be affected, they should only be immune to the perception check penalty.
Wind Spirit: needs to give flight at some point before the True Spirit Ability (turning into a lightning elemental).
Familiars: I like the buffs to the familiars, and I like how the familiar is a conduit, rather than a spellbook like the witch's. Honestly, I feel buffs like these should be acquirable by witches as well (even at the cost of a feat or a new spell). Most people like to simply stick their familiars in their pocket and forget about them, or they are there to dart in and deliver touch spells. Shamans and especially witches rely on their familiars for more than that, and the loss of a familiar is crippling to a shaman or especially a witch. A wizard (or arcane-blooded sorcerer) isn't particularly handicapped by the loss of a familiar.
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If you ask me i'd keep the cleric spell list, or make it more of an Oracle/Druid hybrid if your insistant on the druid spell list.
Well, of course it resembles an Oracle mystery more. The class is an oracle-witch hybrid. However, each spirit grants some spells and a grab-bag of special abilities, just like a Domain. Granting that ability to a druid caster would feel... a lot like a druid. Obviously, a Bones spirit on a druid caster would be very different, and also, very strange and perhaps difficult to play.
I don't disagree, per say, I guess I'd just rather it feel a lot like a Druid than pretty much exactly like an Oracle.
Spirits: Ancestors should replace Lore as one of the starting choices. I have no problem with Lore being brought in later, but I can't thing of a shaman without thinking of revering and consulting one's ancestors.
I wouldn't object to this at all, especially given that Lore seems the most problematic from a balance perspective.
Bone Spirit: Spirit Ability: Touch of the Grave: I don't like that it forces one to have unholy weapons. I feel you should have the option of unholy or bane (undead)that doubles the bonus damage against corporeal undead (to help balance the +1 bane vs the +2 unholy). This allows a...
Or at least add a clause stating that the unholy weapon does not confer a negative level on a good-aligned Shaman.
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dont give shamans a druid list. they r not the same class. a shaman is a spirit caster they deal with the spirits of nature and the spirits of he dead to a lesser extent. they do not shape shift, summon animals, call lightening. we need to differentiate between the shaman and the druid.
spells needed
elemental spells of fire and cold. a shaman while its not a nature caster, they are known for manipulating the 2 common elements.
spells for enhancing allies and debuffing enemies.
healing magic
protection spells
spells that deal with pacifying the undead, not spells for summoning the undead
I've been playing around with different ideas....
I still think I would rather see it keep the Cleric spell list, but as a spontanious caster...and then have the spirit magic ability add the spirits listed spells temporarily added to the Shamans "spells known" list.
That way you get a variety of spells available depending on what spirit is currently bonded with the Shaman.
I would rather see the 1st level spirit just be a wondering spirit, with the ability to bond with an increasing number of spirits at the same time, increase as the Shaman gains levels (like up to four or five spirits by 20th level).
Increase the number of Hexes and boons that they can choose from these bound spirits...
I have no interest in the famaliar whatsoever (shrugs).
dont give shamans a druid list. they r not the same class. a shaman is a spirit caster they deal with the spirits of nature and the spirits of he dead to a lesser extent. they do not shape shift, summon animals, call lightening. we need to differentiate between the shaman and the druid.
spells needed
elemental spells of fire and cold. a shaman while its not a nature caster, they are known for manipulating the 2 common elements.
spells for enhancing allies and debuffing enemies.
healing magic
protection spells
spells that deal with pacifying the undead, not spells for summoning the undead
Agreed.
I've been playing around with different ideas....
I still think I would rather see it keep the Cleric spell list, but as a spontanious caster...and then have the spirit magic ability add the spirits listed spells temporarily added to the Shamans "spells known" list.
I was sort of hoping it'd meet halfway and become the divine equivalent to an arcanist. That way its not quit stepping on toes and it still serves a very different purpose.
In other news... Think we'll get more witch up in here with the next revision? At the moment the best I see are extremely weak offensive hexes that need help badly(scaling maybe?) and the spirit guide(familiar looks awesome for a spirit shaman imo. I'm a little jealous of the spirit familiar fluff for my other classes!)
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Druid spell list don't work because it lacks many of the valuable spells on the cleric.
Cleric spell list don't work because it lacks many of the spells needed for more elemental/nature based theme.
So either a custom made spell list is made, or we have an archetype made. If we go with an archetype we can have the Community Shaman which is the standard Shaman which will use the Cleric spell list, and then the Primal Shaman archetype which uses the Druid Spell List in addition to whatever the archetype grants.
As much of the conflict here seems to be based on "feel"....I have been going through my books that discuss the topic (academic books...not pop culture/RPG books) looking for points that I feel the current class is missing the mark.
I'm tossing them up here hoping that they will stimulate ideas.
The cultural specialist that we collectively refer to as "shamans" have several aspects in common regardless of culture, and that I feel are almost completely missing from the class, and I would like to see represented in some manner.
A) Other than knowledge, wisdom, and skills, a shamans only real power is in communicating with, and convincing spirits to act on his behalf. It is the spirits themselves that (using game mechanics) "cast" the spells, heal people, find lost objects, spy on other clans/tribes, and produce the other effects....not the shaman.
B) A shamans relative power is judged on the number of spirits who are generally willing to aid him.
C) In most cultures, shamans "house" these spirits in objects that they then carry with them, or wear on their person (arcane bonded objects ?), these objects act as the conduit to communicate with the spirit, are often given names, "fed" with offerings, etc..etc..
And if broken or lost, the shamans tie to that spirit is severed and must be re-established.
These objects also act as badges of office, alerting others to the shamans role and even possible level of power.
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As much of the conflict here seems to be based on "feel"....I have been going through my books that discuss the topic (academic books...not pop culture/RPG books) looking for points that I feel the current class is missing the mark.
I'm tossing them up here hoping that they will stimulate ideas.
The cultural specialist that we collectively refer to as "shamans" have several aspects in common regardless of culture, and that I feel are almost completely missing from the class, and I would like to see represented in some manner.
A) Other than knowledge, wisdom, and skills, a shamans only real power is in communicating with, and convincing spirits to act on his behalf. It is the spirits themselves that (using game mechanics) "cast" the spells, heal people, find lost objects, spy on other clans/tribes, and produce the other effects....not the shaman.
B) A shamans relative power is judged on the number of spirits who are generally willing to aid him.
C) In most cultures, shamans "house" these spirits in objects that they then carry with them, or wear on their person (arcane bonded objects ?), these objects act as the conduit to communicate with the spirit, are often given names, "fed" with offerings, etc..etc..
And if broken or lost, the shamans tie to that spirit is severed and must be re-established.
These objects also act as badges of office, alerting others to the shamans role and even possible level of power.
I like the idea of it being the spirit who does all the work while the character is basically the vessel they use to interact with the physical world. Makes for a very interesting character dynamic with the character being interestingly subservient to these "other" entities. Like besides the standard idea of the shaman I could totally see some other interesting options like shamans of Zon-Kuthon who become possessed by the spirits of shadow in order to aid their community or mad shamans possessed by the dark dreams of dread Cthulhu or maybe even Desna.
Add on to that more abilities to control and handle "Creatures of Nature" i.e. animals, fey, aberrations (native animals of alien ecology's), and undead along side throwing out outsiders and we'd have something really cool.
I'm just throwing in another nickel for Charisma-based casting.
I'm curious why so many people think that we need a spontaneous Druid.
I'm not even disputing the need, really, I just don't see why so many people seem adamant about it.
There's no prepared Bard, but I don't see anyone in the Skald thread wanting him to be prepared.
There's no spontaneous Witch, there's no spontaneous Magus, there's no prepared Summoner, and so on and so forth.
While I can understand an individual wanting to play his Magus as if he were spontaneous, or wanting to play his Summoner as if he were prepared, I'm not sure just 'wanting it' is enough of a reason to think it's 'needed'.
Easily my favorite of the new classes. Great work! The wandering options are great for allowing some exploration of options without sacrificing power. The Spirit Familiar is an awesome touch!
Charisma coming in for some hexes… eh, meh. =/ It's not consistent enough, and is at odds with the general design of hexes. Spirit abilities, sure, I could buy tying those to Charisma.
Minor details…
Bone Ward includes "At 8th level, the ward increases to +3 lasts for 1 minute". The phrasing here is awkward, which doesn't help the fact that it may be a source of confusion, going from scaling with level to a flat time period. (It took me a little bit to realize that the single minute was intended because it can be used on each member of the party once per day.)
"Her gaze can penetrate a number of feat equal to her shaman level" would make for some amusing typo-RAW about ignoring other creatures' feats.
I'm curious why so many people think that we need a spontaneous Druid.
I'm not even disputing the need, really, I just don't see why so many people seem adamant about it.
There's no prepared Bard, but I don't see anyone in the Skald thread wanting him to be prepared.
There's no spontaneous Witch, there's no spontaneous Magus, there's no prepared Summoner, and so on and so forth.While I can understand an individual wanting to play his Magus as if he were spontaneous, or wanting to play his Summoner as if he were prepared, I'm not sure just 'wanting it' is enough of a reason to think it's 'needed'.
+1 to this. It's not hard to house-rule a spontaneous casting variant of each class, and Shaman-as-spontaneous-druid puts Shaman in a really, really small place in terms of range of possible characters compared to what the flavor of the class allows.
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It seems like everyone has a different idea of what a shaman is/does. And so has a different list of spells they think should be on the shaman list. I think the shaman should use the standard cleric spell list, but increase number of spirit magic spells to 2-3 per level. That way they have customizability and the feel of their own spell list without having to make a full blown new one.
Personally I see the cleric as a beneficent priest, whereas the shaman wields more destructive powers. My view of the shaman is a straight spell caster, not a warrior priest like the cleric. If I was designing the shaman, I'd drop their bab to 1/2, hd to d6, light armor, but not medium, and add a lot of offensive spells to their list, lightning bolt, meteor swarm and the like.
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I'm curious why so many people think that we need a spontaneous Druid.
I'm not even disputing the need, really, I just don't see why so many people seem adamant about it.
There's no prepared Bard, but I don't see anyone in the Skald thread wanting him to be prepared.
There's no spontaneous Witch, there's no spontaneous Magus, there's no prepared Summoner, and so on and so forth.While I can understand an individual wanting to play his Magus as if he were spontaneous, or wanting to play his Summoner as if he were prepared, I'm not sure just 'wanting it' is enough of a reason to think it's 'needed'.
Witch, magus and summoner have their own class list. Currently thats not on the table for the shaman. Spontaneous magus is looking more and more the Bloodrager.
While in the beginning I was against the druid list after playtesting the class a little it changed my opinion. In the first levels there is nothing that you can do as a shaman that cant be done better with a cleric, oracle or even witch.
Making it work with the druid list is not only a step to differenciate the shaman from the said classes in the fluff but also mechanically. It gives the shaman its own nich in the classes. Nobody else besides the druid uses the druid list, and a lot of people like that list.
Let me ask your question back to you. Why does pathfinder needs a third class working with the cleric list when there are already two who do it and do a great job at it? What is the cleric-shaman adding to the pack? What can he do that somebody else doesnt do it better?
A spontaneous caster with the Druid Spell List. What?
Are you kidding me?
The Druid list is so specialized already that now we're going to add the further restrictions of spells known? That is a recipe for disaster. You end up with Shamans who can ONLY do a few things. You essentially end up with Shamans who have a craptackular spell list.
If you don't believe me, go through the Druid Spell List and pick out 2 spells of each spell level. Then look at everything you miss for it.
We end up with shamans who can't do much of anything that the concepts go for. Or if you do shoot for it, you'll be a drag on the rest of your party due to you picking the even more specialized portions of the Druid spell list.
Sorcerers work because Arcane spells are useful in a wide range of situations.
A divine nature themed caster who uses the Druid List? I'm sorry but it sounds like you want a Druid. Losing the Cleric list is probably the worst thing they could have done to the class. It loses a potential place in tons of parties as a result.
The Shaman before I could see as a more casting oriented Cleric tuned to Spirits and could on the fly become elementally attuned with Wandering Spirit.
I don't think Pathfinder 'needs' a third class working with the Cleric list; I'm not really trying to debate whether that's a necessity or not. I was just trying to figure something out.
If I had my way, the Shaman would have its own spell list that fit somewhere between the Cleric, Witch, and Druid, but I don't have my own way, so it is what it is.
I feel like I hear a lot that only Druids use the Druid list, and I think I understand that complaint, but only Witches use the Witch list, only Alchemists use the Alchemist list, and only Summoners use the Summoner list. It's just the way of things. Side note: If we hang out for a bit, we'll get the Hunter, and it casts based on the Druid list, right? So that's nice.
I definitely agree that the Druid list differentiates the Shaman from the Cleric or Oracle, but where it succeeds in differentiation, it fails in adhering to the Shaman's prescribed fluff. A caster who has contacted and bound a Spirit of Bones who can cast Barkskin, but not Gentle Repose, for example, is a tragic misrepresentation of his kind.
Of the 14 casting classes, excluding Pretige, there are 12 different spell lists, and even among those that share lists, there are specific Oracle only, or Wizard only spells. I'm not sure why it seems suddenly out of the question to create a new spell list, but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand all the different perspectives of the Cleric fans, the Druid fans, the Witch fans, and the Spontaneous fans at the same time.
I feel that the whole problem could be alleviated with the creation of a new list, despite the work it may entail.
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Lots of stuff.
I understand you dont like spontaneous casters or the druid list. People have different opinions. I, and some others, do like both of those things and I dont think a spontaneous druid would be a bad class.
I feel that the whole problem could be alleviated with the creation of a new list, despite the work it may entail.
I agree with you there. IMO that would be the easier solution from my perspective also. But Paizo have stated they want to avoid going there and they did have good reasons for it. So I am trying to present suggestions they can actually use. If one day they decide to review their stand on the matter I will be thrilled.
Meanwhile I am playtesting what they gave us and I dont like the results. Right now the shaman is just a crippled cleric until they get the wandering mechanic at level 4 and 6. And I am not the only one saying it. That is a loooong strech to be underpowered specially when you have oracle an cleric doing that same job twice a good.
Friend to Animals from Nature includes the following:
"All animals within 30 feet of the shaman receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to her Charisma modifier."
This should probably be allied of friendly animals or something like that. As it stands, it makes things like Charm Animal harder to use.
How do Wandering Hex and Wandering Spirit interact with permanent choices?
-Arcane Enlightenment with Wandering Hex allows you to repick your Sorc/Wizard spells daily (or every other day, maybe).
-Companion Familiar with Wandering True Spirit allows you to transform your familiar into a new animal companion either every day or every other day.
As much of the conflict here seems to be based on "feel"....I have been going through my books that discuss the topic (academic books...not pop culture/RPG books) looking for points that I feel the current class is missing the mark.
I'm tossing them up here hoping that they will stimulate ideas.
The cultural specialist that we collectively refer to as "shamans" have several aspects in common regardless of culture, and that I feel are almost completely missing from the class, and I would like to see represented in some manner.
A) Other than knowledge, wisdom, and skills, a shamans only real power is in communicating with, and convincing spirits to act on his behalf. It is the spirits themselves that (using game mechanics) "cast" the spells, heal people, find lost objects, spy on other clans/tribes, and produce the other effects....not the shaman.
B) A shamans relative power is judged on the number of spirits who are generally willing to aid him.
C) In most cultures, shamans "house" these spirits in objects that they then carry with them, or wear on their person (arcane bonded objects ?), these objects act as the conduit to communicate with the spirit, are often given names, "fed" with offerings, etc..etc..
And if broken or lost, the shamans tie to that spirit is severed and must be re-established.
These objects also act as badges of office, alerting others to the shamans role and even possible level of power.
that has given me an idea for a revision of the shaman that i have instantly fallen in love with.
As follows: the shamans have their own spell list but it is VERY sparten and bare bones with very little to work with as a base. they are spontanious and charisma based.
All shamans start play with a totem/fetish. this serves as their connection to the spirits and works as both divine focus and spellbook, a shaman who looses her totem/fetish looses acess to her spirits.
spirits would be reworked rather drastically, you start with 1 spirit and gain another one every 3-4 levels. each spirit would provide 15 or so additional spells to the shamans spell list and a few minor powers. in addition each spirit can "manifest" which would be a powerful spirit specific ability. however a shaman can only ask her spirits (collectively) to manifest 1+cha times per day.
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Spon cast druid = Oh god please no! I want a class that can actually do something with its spells... not just walk around saying "Sorry, don't know that spell. Will a cure light wounds or goodberry help?"
In 3.5 together with wizards, druids were arguably the most overpowered class in the game and that have not changed too much in Pathfinder. By giving the class the druid list paizo is in no way doing the shamans a diservice in regard to power or utility. I have no ideia what you are talking about.
I'm curious why so many people think that we need a spontaneous Druid.
I'm not even disputing the need, really, I just don't see why so many people seem adamant about it.
There's no prepared Bard, but I don't see anyone in the Skald thread wanting him to be prepared.
There's no spontaneous Witch, there's no spontaneous Magus, there's no prepared Summoner, and so on and so forth.While I can understand an individual wanting to play his Magus as if he were spontaneous, or wanting to play his Summoner as if he were prepared, I'm not sure just 'wanting it' is enough of a reason to think it's 'needed'.
Nobody is asking for a prepared Bard because, uh, nobody likes prepared casting. Or rather, people accept it, nobody is excited by it. Nobody ever says, "Oh man, I'd only play a Summoner if only I could prepared spells."
That's because preparing, while powerful, is tedious--it's not as fun as spontaneous casting. Spontaneous casting is less book keeping and it's psychologically more satisfying since you're not always worrying about wasting a spell or picking the wrong thing or not having the right thing when you could have or wasting slots in a fight when you need them for utility, etc.
I like the Druid list, but I hate preparing spells. That's about the whole of it.
As for the challenge someone presented of choosing two druid spells from each level, I will do that, but let me also point out that the Oracle does not do this at all. Oracles get their spell selection on top of free Cure/Inflicts and Mystery spells. There's no reason a spontaneous Druid couldn't get a certain line of spells free (Summon Nature's Ally? Or even the Cure line as well) and them spirit related spells on top of that. Two feels really arbitrary and there are several more at each level that I'd be into having, but at first glance, here would be my picks:
1st: Entangle, Frostbite
2nd: Barkskin, Flaming Sphere (Wood Shape would be my third pick)
3rd: Aquaeous Orb, Plant Growth (though I personally really like Spike Growth for some reason, and Stone Shape would be my third pick)
4th: Obsidian Flow, Ball Lightning if I was going for metamagic, Arboreal Hammer otherwise because it's cool
5th: Fickle Winds, Wall of Thorns
6th: Tar Pool (then I could retrain Obsidian Flow), Wall of Stone
7th: Heal, Scouring Wind
8th: Frightful Aspect, Repel Metal or Stone
9th: Does it really matter at this point?
I've been playing around with different ideas....
I still think I would rather see it keep the Cleric spell list, but as a spontanious caster...and then have the spirit magic ability add the spirits listed spells temporarily added to the Shamans "spells known" list.
I'm completely against this. Give the Shaman spontaneous casting with the Cleric list and it really is just an Oracle with a familiar instead of a curse.
Meanwhile I am playtesting what they gave us and I dont like the results. Right now the shaman is just a crippled cleric until they get the wandering mechanic at level 4 and 6. And I am not the only one saying it. That is a loooong strech to be underpowered specially when you have oracle an cleric doing that same job twice a good.
How on earth are they doing the same job twice as well? A cleric with powerful domains might have an edge, but it's certainly not twice as effective. An oracle has less spells known and has to deal with whatever penalty their curse gives.
I seriously don't get where you're getting anything remotely like "crippled" from. By second level, a Lore Shaman can get Confusion Curse, which is brutal, while a Heavens Shaman has color spray from level one and gets hypnotic pattern at level three, then only gets more options at level four.If anything, I'd compare the Shaman's power favorably to reasonably-optimized cleric and oracle, from my playtesting experience.
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While the Druid list does indeed have some nice Shamanistic flavor... this class is a Oracle/Witch. Not a Oracle/Druid. Not a Druid/Witch. Not a Oracle/Druid/Witch.
Its a bloody Oracle/Witch. As such, the only spell lists that should be looked at are the Cleric list, the Witch list, or a hybrid of the two. Keep the Druid out of it.
While the Druid list does indeed have some nice Shamanistic flavor... this class is a Oracle/Witch. Not a Oracle/Druid. Not a Druid/Witch. Not a Oracle/Druid/Witch.
Its a bloody Oracle/Witch. As such, the only spell lists that should be looked at are the Cleric list, the Witch list, or a hybrid of the two. Keep the Druid out of it.
+1
That's right, because the Bloodrager uses the Sorcerer list.
Or is it that he's a Barbarian/Magus?
bloodrager is getting his own list lass
Nobody is asking for a prepared Bard because, uh, nobody likes prepared casting. Or rather, people accept it, nobody is excited by it. Nobody ever says, "Oh man, I'd only play a Summoner if only I could prepared spells."
That's because preparing, while powerful, is tedious--it's not as fun as spontaneous casting. Spontaneous casting is less book keeping and it's psychologically more satisfying since you're not always worrying about wasting a spell or picking the wrong thing or not having the right thing when you could have or wasting slots in a fight when you need them for utility, etc.
I completely disagree and I know for a fact that there are others on my side. A lot of people like looking at an upcoming situation and making sure they have the right tool for the job. A lot of people like book keeping.
To make a blanket statement about one type of casting being more psychologically satisfying than another is just ridiculous, and it could only be made worse by thinking that such a subjective viewpoint is a valid basis for determining how a class should function.Just to be clear, I am neither against Druids nor Spontaneous casting. I love them both, and find each enjoyable in its own way. But that doesn't mean Shaman should use either.
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Just to be clear, I am neither against Druids nor Spontaneous casting. I love them both, and find each enjoyable in its own way. But that doesn't mean Shaman should use either.
Ok, why?
You have asked for people to explain their point if view and they have. You may or may not agree with them. Now please explain yours.